The Drum Sound of Motown

[bradsupremes]

This may be something Ralph could answer or someone with knowledge about the snake pit/Funk Bros. The drum sound on all Detroit Motown recordings had a distinctive sound. I don’t know if it was the Motown EQ’s or a particular drum set the Funk Bros. drummers used, but they have a distinctive booming sound. A depth to them. An example would be the Supremes’ version of “Hey Jude” especially during the ending with the pickups [[can’t tell if it is Uriel Jones or Pistol Allen).

What was the drum kit they used in recording? Ludwig? Did they do something special to them to achieve that unique sound?

[robb_k]

This may be something Ralph could answer or someone with knowledge about the snake pit/Funk Bros. The drum sound on all Detroit Motown recordings had a distinctive sound. I don’t know if it was the Motown EQ’s or a particular drum set the Funk Bros. drummers used, but they have a distinctive booming sound. A depth to them. An example would be the Supremes’ version of “Hey Jude” especially during the ending with the pickups [[can’t tell if it is Uriel Jones or Pistol Allen).

What was the drum kit they used in recording? Ludwig? Did they do something special to them to achieve that unique sound?

I wish we would still have Mike McLean and Bob Ohlsson here to answer this question[[or George McGregor, or Melvin Davis). But, maybe Ralph can answer it? If this were 2002, we'd have had 12 answers to this question after it was up for 50 seconds, and they'd ALL have been drummers or sound engineers who worked in The Snakepit during The 1960s!

I'm no sound engineer, but I do know that they did things with their EQ’s that no one else did. Mike had them always ahead of the rest of the industry, even the majors, in sound room equipment and technique. So, I would guess that what they did with their EQ’s was a big part of it. Having 2 drummers on many of the recordings was also part of it. But, I didn't hear 2 on "Hey Jude". But, the touch sounds to me more like Uriel than Pistol [[and not at all like Benny[[who, of course, was gone by the time this recording was made).

I'll be curious to find out what the answer is. I think Ralph might be able to contact either Bob or Mike. I love threads like these. I wish we'd have a lot more like them, with the people who were there back in the day joining in and answering the questions. But, sadly, a lot of us who were around back then, are gone.

[soulster]

It's a combination of many factors that include the drum kit, the mics and mic placement, the room, the many EQs, compressors, and limiters, and the way they may have saturated the tape as it was recorded. But, the sound you hear on the final recordings isn't how it went down at the session. Many people would be shocked to hear just how dry and clean the drums sound before they are processed to death, which is what the producers and engineers at Motown did.

[lefty]

Soulster: Are you referring to the sound in the room or on tape? Nearly all of the multitracks that I have heard [[and I've heard a lot) have processing printed to tape. Some things happened during mixing and mastering, of course, but not nearly at the level of modern production. For the most part [[in my experience) what you hear on the raw multitrack sounds a heck of a lot like the record.

[StuBass1]

I can't say much about the sonic quality of the drum tracks on Motown recordings, however per style...it's common knowledge, and in fact having been admitted by Uriel and Pistol that the drum patterns, beats, fills, and pickups throughout the Motown heyday were all inspired by what Benny created so far as an identifiable beat through out that classic period...Everything the other two did were merely variations of Bennys percussive innovations much like Earl Young did later in Philly so far as setting a pattern others pretty much had to emulate in order to maintain the sound...So far as kits...it's been told that Benny especially would often pawn his drums and show up at sessions with all KINDS of equipment...even to the point of turning his snare over when he would bust the top skin and play a track using the bottom side of the drum...Although there is a drum set currently sitting in the snakepit for tours...each drummer had their own preference on kits...Away from Motown...Pistol was more closely identified as a straight jazz drummer, while Benny performed with some jazz and many blues type artists before Motown. Uriel played a lot of club dates...

[arr&bee]

Legend has it that the acoustics of the studio gave the drums that distinctive sound.

[StuBass1]

Legend has it that the acoustics of the studio gave the drums that distinctive sound.

That certainly makes a lot of sense...especially those who have actually been down in the snakepit… Sometimes unplanned things just happen to come together in a certain way to create unexpected outcomes and acoustics could logically be a part of it...

[soulster]

Soulster: Are you referring to the sound in the room or on tape? Nearly all of the multitracks that I have heard [[and I've heard a lot) have processing printed to tape. Some things happened during mixing and mastering, of course, but not nearly at the level of modern production. For the most part [[in my experience) what you hear on the raw multitrack sounds a heck of a lot like the record.

Of course they printed effects to tape, and the room and mics contributed to the sound. I guess what I was saying is that there was no special magic bullet. However, most engineers have specifically cited the room as the main influence. It was a happy accident, and no one has since been able to quite duplicate that sound.

Everything is really hard to pinpoint because, in addition to all of the gear they used, they were constantly changing, improving, and fixing the gear between sessions. A considerable amount of pre-mixing and bouncing happened in the three-track days.

The valve console they used had a significant impact on the sound. You could hear the difference between going from three to eight-track, from going valve to solid state, and, of course, from Detroit to Los Angeles.

[robb_k]

Does anyone still have contact with Bob Ohlsson? He was still posting here, regularly, a lot more recently than Mike McLean. Maybe someone can ask him to respond to this thread? Why hasn't Ralph noticed this thread? Maybe he's really busy right now.

[soulster]

Does anyone still have contact with Bob Ohlsson? He was still posting here, regularly, a lot more recently than Mike McLean. Maybe someone can ask him to respond to this thread?

You will probably find those guys on engineering forums or on Facebook where they can talk about their craft with their peers and don't have to deal with the obsessed Supremes/Ross/Wilson fandom bullshit that goes on around here.

[TomatoTom123]

the obsessed Supremes/Ross/Wilson fandom bullshit that goes on around here

Now what on Earth do you mean soulster??

[soulster]

Now what on Earth do you mean soulster??

What I wrote.

[robb_k]

You will probably find those guys on engineering forums or on Facebook where they can talk about their craft with their peers and don't have to deal with the obsessed Supremes/Ross/Wilson fandom bullshit that goes on around here.

I know what you mean.

[soulster]

I know a way Ralph can end this crap: he can put up a paywall. If you charge people to be here, you will eliminate the riff-raff. It doesn't have to be much, but trolls aren't going to pay for what they can do for free. It may even bring back some of the producers and engineers.

[jobucats]

I'm putting my vote in that it was the acoustics of the room which was the biggest contribution to the sound of the drums. This may have been mentioned, however, in the overall final product, the engineers used a lot of compression to give those productions that special punch which would include the drums. I do some backroom recordings myself, and I know that adding compression does tend to bring the sound forward and make it more pronounced. I figure that compression can contribute to making those snares pop such as on the introduction of "You Keep Me Hangin' On" where either Pistol or Uriel's snares pop right before the vocal starts.

[ralpht]

For the most part I credit the room for aiding the drum sound. But give major credit for proper engineering to round out the deal. Stu points out that each drummer had a particular style. Russ has told me that he could get a sound he liked from a particular drummer, but if a new drummer was brought in for whatever reason to play on a particular track, the entire sound of the drums would change and adjustments would have to be made.

Soulster, give it a rest.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

The valve console they used had a significant impact on the sound. You could hear the difference between going from three to eight-track, from going valve to solid state, and, of course, from Detroit to Los Angeles.

You bring up something that I had been wondering about for years when it comes to the Motown Sound and only in recent years have started to understand more. The Motown Sound in general and the drum sound by extension really was influenced by, of course, the room/studio, but also the recording equipment. The most interesting period to me was from mid '64 and '65. The sound is BIG and the definition of all instruments and vocals is nearly bell-clear and very crisp.

The drums had a particular sound; beyond who was playing, there was a certain fat, thick, saturated sound going on with the drums. I thought it had to do with the use of compression, but lately I've been reading about those valve, or vacuum tube-powered consoles and the effects they had on recordings. Listening to albums like The Temptations' "Tempting Temptations", The Supremes' "More Hits", The Miracles' "Going To A Go-Go" and Marvin Gaye's "Moods Of", I really hear a consistently specific sound quality to the drums and all the instruments and vocals. Was it tube-powered equipment being used then? I accept that that is too pat an answer, but it intrigues me to no end.

While I love the '64 to '65 sound, for me the next best period is '66 to '67. Now there is another change in the sound- instruments are still well-defined, but now everything sounds a bit "dryer", even more crisp, especially the drums. I don't know why, but the one song album that to me best exemplifies this new sound is the Marvin Gaye/Tammi Terrell album, "United" and the song "If I Could Build My Whole World Around You" in particular. That song to me, has THE perfect drum sound. I'm thinking maybe this is when the recording equipment was changed to solid-state? At any rate, it just seemed everything sounded so good during this time frame. The Marvelettes' "Pink Album", the Four Tops' "Reach Out" are two other albums where everything just sounded like perfection sonic-wise.

I know this is a discussion that will go in any number of directions, but this is what is fascinating about the subject and I look forward to reading others' comments.

[snakepit]

I believe Deke Richards had a special wooden flooring installed for his LA sessions, he knew that the "snakepit" had an influence in the sound achieved in studio A.

[bradsupremes]

The drums had a particular sound; beyond who was playing, there was a certain fat, thick, saturated sound going on with the drums.

That is a perfect description of the Motown drum sound. It maintained that sound all through the years the label recorded in Detroit even though the sound changed throughout the years. I love the '68-'69 drum sound. I don't know if it was the equipment being used or the reverb, but it had that fat, thick sound. Example would be Supremes/Temptations version of "Sing A Simple Song" or the Four Tops' "You Can't Keep A Good Man Down."

When Motown purchase Golden World, did they do any changes to the recording studio to match Studio A's acoustics? I've noticed there are several tracks cut at Golden World that I could have sworn were cut at Studio A. Was the equipment and consoles in the booth changed to match what was being used at Hitsville so it would be the same in terms of compression, etc.

[ralpht]

Brad, as studio manager I would try to get various producers to use Golden World for tracks if Studio A was booked solid. I even talked Frank Wilson to give it a try when he was desperate for studio time. He actually liked what he got out of GW but would go back to A in time. The place had that kind of hold.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

I love the '68-'69 drum sound. I don't know if it was the equipment being used or the reverb, but it had that fat, thick sound. Example would be Supremes/Temptations version of "Sing A Simple Song" or the Four Tops' "You Can't Keep A Good Man Down."

Brad, I know just exactly the sound you mean. It's also on the unreleased Martha Reeves & The Vandellas' track "Full Speed Ahead". It's almost as if they triple-tracked the drums or spread the drums over 3 tracks and combined them onto a single track with just a bit of slapback delay to get a much thicker sound. I've tried a technique something like that sometime in things I've recorded [[of course, what I got ain't NOTHING like Motown!) I do like that sound very much too.

[bradsupremes]

Brad, as studio manager I would try to get various producers to use Golden World for tracks if Studio A was booked solid. I even talked Frank Wilson to give it a try when he was desperate for studio time. He actually liked what he got out of GW but would go back to A in time. The place had that kind of hold.

If Studio A was booked for a vocal session and GW was open, would the Funks just go to GW or would there be other Detroit musicians who would come in to cut the track? I’m sure the drum set at Studio A stayed there. Was there a second drum set that stayed at GW?

[JimBagley]

This was an excellent topic, Brad, and a nice thread to read.

[ralpht]

The Funks would go to GW. There were two complete sets in Studio A specifically tuned for Pistol and Uriel. I don't remember GW having a studio set.

[marv2]

Some outside of Detroit believed that Motown was using more than one drummer at a time on their recordings.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Some outside of Detroit believed that Motown was using more than one drummer at a time on their recordings.

They were sometimes. The Temptations' "Get Ready" and "Little Miss Sweetness"; Jr. Walker & The All Stars' "Home Cookin'"; Marvin & Tammi's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", Shorty Long's "Here Comes The Judge" to name a few.

[robb_k]

That is a perfect description of the Motown drum sound. It maintained that sound all through the years the label recorded in Detroit even though the sound changed throughout the years. I love the '68-'69 drum sound. I don't know if it was the equipment being used or the reverb, but it had that fat, thick sound. Example would be Supremes/Temptations version of "Sing A Simple Song" or the Four Tops' "You Can't Keep A Good Man Down."

When Motown purchase Golden World, did they do any changes to the recording studio to match Studio A's acoustics? I've noticed there are several tracks cut at Golden World that I could have sworn were cut at Studio A. Was the equipment and consoles in the booth changed to match what was being used at Hitsville so it would be the same in terms of compression, etc.

From what I heard from Mike McLean and read, I would say that Gordy's engineers did, indeed, change Golden World's setup starting the day they took possession, to their style. The room had different basic acoustics, so the end sound would never sound exactly the same as The Snakepit. But, they did change the equipment in it, and its configuration to match their own style, as opposed to the way Wingate used it. I don't remember any of the specifics. Mike would be the best one to explain those.

[bradsupremes]

Does anyone which songs were cut at GW? Nothing comes to mind at the moment or stands out as sounding different.

[ralpht]

Robb, from what I understand, the console went through some tweaking, but the room itself remained as it was during the GW days.

[ralpht]

I thought about that studio over the years. I have always thought it was superior to Studio A, but A held a mystique that couldn't be denied. I wish, when I was managing the studios, I would have put in for a budget to re-work the room. Make it more intimate. The room was quite large and didn't have much in the way of a personality. That alone could have been an interesting change. Oh well...too late now.

[marv2]

The Funks would go to GW. There were two complete sets in Studio A specifically tuned for Pistol and Uriel. I don't remember GW having a studio set.

Thanks Ralph!

[robb_k]

Robb, from what I understand, the console went through some tweaking, but the room itself remained as it was during the GW days.

Thanks for filling us in on that, Ralph.