Cindy Birdsong - Till the Boat Sails Away [[1976)

**sup_fan** · 03-22-2018, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

But Mary got a lead when Diana had star billing, and that's my point. Gordy thought highly enough of Mary's lead singing to give her not only a featured spot in the live shows during the DRATS period, but also recording her in the studio and performing the song live on television during primetime. If Gordy had a similar view of Cindy's voice, she might have gotten one too, but she didn't. And even when Jean came in and the group was supposed to be a "group" again, Cindy still didn't get a lead to herself. So whether it was the Diana Ross show or the Jean Terrell show, nobody thought to give Cindy a song to herself. Personally I think that says a lot about the opinions regarding Cindy's lead ability.

yes and no

when Cindy joined in mid 67, I believe everyone was thinking it was sort of trial period. I'm not sure if her royalties kicked in after a probation period or not. and they were trying to keep things low key. But mid 68, they were turning 100% of focus to Diana, as we know. I feel the little bit of solo work mary got was just sort of bones thrown her way. it's really just 1 spotlight on occasion, except the farewell set.

I do agree with your thoughts in the case of Mrs Robinson in TCB and that's how it was originally taped. but then for the broadcast D and C sang the line together!! odd!! it was about hardly 10 words

when Jean came on, it did shift and quite a bit. both M and C get the trade off lines in Ladder, in the live version of Everybody, both M and C have a lead line. In the Brother Love medley from Tom Jones, M and C have lines. In the recording of Bridge over Troubled Water all three share lead. In Something on Tom Campbell, Cindy actually had the echo call outs, not mary. Another shared lead on Flip Wilson and in live shows with Love the One You're With. And if you listen to the bootlegs of concerts, she had more speaking parts.

now it is still definitely the 3rd position in the group during the Jean years. but a much larger third position than DRATS

**marv2** · 03-22-2018, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

yes and no

when Cindy joined in mid 67, I believe everyone was thinking it was sort of trial period. I'm not sure if her royalties kicked in after a probation period or not. and they were trying to keep things low key. But mid 68, they were turning 100% of focus to Diana, as we know. I feel the little bit of solo work mary got was just sort of bones thrown her way. it's really just 1 spotlight on occasion, except the farewell set.

I do agree with your thoughts in the case of Mrs Robinson in TCB and that's how it was originally taped. but then for the broadcast D and C sang the line together!! odd!! it was about hardly 10 words

when Jean came on, it did shift and quite a bit. both M and C get the trade off lines in Ladder, in the live version of Everybody, both M and C have a lead line. In the Brother Love medley from Tom Jones, M and C have lines. In the recording of Bridge over Troubled Water all three share lead. In Something on Tom Campbell, Cindy actually had the echo call outs, not mary. Another shared lead on Flip Wilson and in live shows with Love the One You're With. And if you listen to the bootlegs of concerts, she had more speaking parts.

now it is still definitely the 3rd position in the group during the Jean years. but a much larger third position than DRATS

Cindy does a great job on the Supremes version of "Love Train" in concerts.

**sup_fan** · 03-22-2018, 01:04 PM

Cindy was an excellent 2nd soprano. Typically that's the middle voice and rarely does it carry the melody. I think the JMC lineup and even the MCS lineup worked better, vocally and harmonically, than the DMC lineup. both D and C have ranges better suited for the middle than the top. S and J have higher voices and can carry those pitches better.

Cindy brought a sexiness. I think she really did sort of provide a Marilyn Monroe element. she was voluptuous, had those bedroom eyes, a bit of breathy-ness to her tone. combine this with M's firecracker personality and then Diana's razzmatazz and it's a strong combo.

Jean always strikes me as a bit of either on or off. not vocally cuz she was ALWAYS on there. but personality. sometimes she has this cute, slightly shy persona but still came across as the lead singer. other times she seems really awkward, nervous and a bit withdrawn. when she was on and combined with Mary firecracker and sexy Cindy, it's very powerful

I adore Cindy's lead lines in Bridge Over Troubled Water. it's beautifully soft, warm and sincere. In something like Auto Sunshine where she does a few of the ad libs like Hey and Baby, her tone and sexiness comes through. even in something so simple.

**luke** · 03-22-2018, 01:25 PM

Very good analysis sup. When I saw JMC in Atlantic City, Cindy came out first on EGTRTL and sang the entire first verse and chorus, then Mary came out and sang the next and then Jean came out...

**sup_fan** · 03-22-2018, 02:43 PM

oh that's right Marv. I haven't listened to the MSC Love Train in quite a while. forgot about that one. And of course there's the All I Want tv clip, the shared and group leads on Sha La and Give Out. the Dream sequence

question to the group on He's My Man

on the Dinah show where they're in the purple sequin tops and lip syncing, as they get towards the end [[after the bridge), they each seem to take a line. Looks like Cindy is singing the second line of "Being in his arms..." And they seem to do this on the Tonight Show too.

is that how it's recorded? did each do a little line?

**sup_fan** · 03-22-2018, 02:46 PM

I always wished they did Bridge Over Troubled Water live in their show, sharing the leads. I like the lp version but it's rather overproduced. sooooooo much going on.

I know that this wasn't exactly the style then but I think if they did it very acoustic. Maybe it's a point in the show where the dim the lights. the girls could either stand in a line or maybe gracefully sit on stools. just simple spots on them and only a minimal band. guitar, maybe just a little drum and bass. at least to start. really show off their beautiful leads and 3-part harmony. then after the bridge, they could bring up the volume and all.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

yes and no

when Cindy joined in mid 67, I believe everyone was thinking it was sort of trial period. I'm not sure if her royalties kicked in after a probation period or not. and they were trying to keep things low key. But mid 68, they were turning 100% of focus to Diana, as we know. I feel the little bit of solo work mary got was just sort of bones thrown her way. it's really just 1 spotlight on occasion, except the farewell set.

I do agree with your thoughts in the case of Mrs Robinson in TCB and that's how it was originally taped. but then for the broadcast D and C sang the line together!! odd!! it was about hardly 10 words

when Jean came on, it did shift and quite a bit. both M and C get the trade off lines in Ladder, in the live version of Everybody, both M and C have a lead line. In the Brother Love medley from Tom Jones, M and C have lines. In the recording of Bridge over Troubled Water all three share lead. In Something on Tom Campbell, Cindy actually had the echo call outs, not mary. Another shared lead on Flip Wilson and in live shows with Love the One You're With. And if you listen to the bootlegs of concerts, she had more speaking parts.

now it is still definitely the 3rd position in the group during the Jean years. but a much larger third position than DRATS

I have to go here Sup: yes and no.

When Cindy joined the Supremes in July 1967, no one thought it was a trial period. Cindy's "trial basis" was in April 1967 and I've maintained that had it not been for Cindy being under contract to Atlantic and the Bluebelles, Flo would have never been brought back. Luckily for Florence- and Supremes fans- Cindy could not legally become a Supreme until Gordy took care of the legal break from her other record label and group. This allowed Florence back in until she was out again. By the time of the official firing in July, Cindy was good to go and she stepped into Flo's shoes for what I'm sure Gordy and company thought would be the duration of Diana's time with the group. Florence was never coming back and everyone [[in the Supremes camp) knew it.

[[I sometimes wonder though, what would Gordy have done with Cindy if Florence had come back from the brief "firing" in April and cleaned up her act, not giving Gordy a reason to fire her again? Perhaps Cindy would've become a Marvelette when Gladys left? [[I don't know when Gladys left exactly.) Or maybe she would've eventually ended up replacing Roz in the Vandellas? Just something to ponder.)

As for Mary, of course she got thrown a bone, but she never would've gotten that if she wasn't viewed as someone who could carry the lead of a song. These were Gordy's precious Supremes. He didn't do anything unless he thought it was beneficial to the group, bone or no bone.

During the 70s, Cindy got a bit more lead work, but never a whole song. And IMO Cindy was a great background singer and she was a good enough lead singer to do a few lead lines or even given a verse here or there. But I keep going back to this: it seems like no one thought she was capable of carrying a whole song to herself, and so she didn't. Clearly by the time she performed "My Tribute [[To God Be the Glory)", she seemed to have found the type of song [[and arrangement) that showed off the beauty of her voice so well. But could she have tackled any of the Supremes stuff as well as the Supreme [[any Supreme) who sang lead on any particular song? I don't think so and again my suspicion is that the producers and Bluebelles/Supremes didn't either.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Cindy does a great job on the Supremes version of "Love Train" in concerts.

My favorite "lead" Cindy moment is when she's belting her part on "Let the Sunshine In" at the Farewell show. She showed she had some lungs.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

Cindy was an excellent 2nd soprano. Typically that's the middle voice and rarely does it carry the melody. I think the JMC lineup and even the MCS lineup worked better, vocally and harmonically, than the DMC lineup. both D and C have ranges better suited for the middle than the top. S and J have higher voices and can carry those pitches better.

Cindy brought a sexiness. I think she really did sort of provide a Marilyn Monroe element. she was voluptuous, had those bedroom eyes, a bit of breathy-ness to her tone. combine this with M's firecracker personality and then Diana's razzmatazz and it's a strong combo.

Jean always strikes me as a bit of either on or off. not vocally cuz she was ALWAYS on there. but personality. sometimes she has this cute, slightly shy persona but still came across as the lead singer. other times she seems really awkward, nervous and a bit withdrawn. when she was on and combined with Mary firecracker and sexy Cindy, it's very powerful

I adore Cindy's lead lines in Bridge Over Troubled Water. it's beautifully soft, warm and sincere. In something like Auto Sunshine where she does a few of the ad libs like Hey and Baby, her tone and sexiness comes through. even in something so simple.

I agree with most of this. Cindy was a grown, sexy woman, which I think worked well with ushering the Supremes into a more mature period. The Supremes when Flo was on her way out was certainly not the Supremes of the TAMI Show or that first appearance on Ed Sullivan, but even becoming more glitzy and glamorous, they still came across as "the girls". With Cindy in, the group seems to mature overnight. DRATS was definitely a different show than the Supremes had been. Cindy was a better dancer than Florence, which worked well with the increasingly more elaborate group routines the ladies were doing now. She was physically a beautiful woman. A great replacement for the great Flo Ballard.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

I always wished they did Bridge Over Troubled Water live in their show, sharing the leads. I like the lp version but it's rather overproduced. sooooooo much going on.

I know that this wasn't exactly the style then but I think if they did it very acoustic. Maybe it's a point in the show where the dim the lights. the girls could either stand in a line or maybe gracefully sit on stools. just simple spots on them and only a minimal band. guitar, maybe just a little drum and bass. at least to start. really show off their beautiful leads and 3-part harmony. then after the bridge, they could bring up the volume and all.

I absolutely hate the Supremes' version, but an acoustic live version would have probably worked very well. Jean, Mary and Cindy had a real nice blend that I like.

**luke** · 03-22-2018, 03:16 PM

I don’t think Cindy had any solo lines on recorded Version of He’s My Man.

**sup_fan** · 03-22-2018, 03:30 PM

hahaha Ran - we seem to disagree on almost everything lol

I like their BOTW but agree it's heavy handed. but then again, so is the entire album. that's a crapload going on in Stoned Love, Time to Break Down, Together we can make, etc. So while not my fav rendition of the song, I do like and think it fits the mood of the lp. the production flows with the rest of the tracks and it echos the "higher ideal about mankind" theme that the girls were working with at this time

I don't know that Cindy was actually on probation but I thought I remember previous posts saying that starting with Cindy, each new member was on a period where they were salaried. some period of time before they began earning royalties. Also if the public had not accepted Cindy, I'm guessing Diana's solo debut would have been moved up considerably. I doubt they would have tried another 3rd singer.

I do agree with your comments about the change in the persona of the group. yes with DMF it's like these were your sisters. girls living a glamorous life and still accessible. by the time of DRATS they were STARS!! they were women now

**sup_fan** · 03-22-2018, 03:34 PM

I also agree that Cindy never really got a whole song of her own until the Dream Sequence. and so they never really looked for a song for her that truly suited her ability and style. out of all of the MJC lps, I think the Floy Joy set was the best suited to her. perhaps she could have done full lead on Wisdom of Time or another song that was soft.

I do think the duet approach between M and J is a bit odd. two women singing together reminds me more of Lilith Fair or Indigo Girls lolol. I would have preferred more 3 part leads. even if cindy got the lesser amount. Giving her a line or some parts would have added some magic to FJ, Touch, and others. I don't really count her minimal lead lines in the conclusion of Touch.

**midnightman** · 03-22-2018, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

yes and no

when Cindy joined in mid 67, I believe everyone was thinking it was sort of trial period. I'm not sure if her royalties kicked in after a probation period or not. and they were trying to keep things low key. But mid 68, they were turning 100% of focus to Diana, as we know. I feel the little bit of solo work mary got was just sort of bones thrown her way. it's really just 1 spotlight on occasion, except the farewell set.

I do agree with your thoughts in the case of Mrs Robinson in TCB and that's how it was originally taped. but then for the broadcast D and C sang the line together!! odd!! it was about hardly 10 words

when Jean came on, it did shift and quite a bit. both M and C get the trade off lines in Ladder, in the live version of Everybody, both M and C have a lead line. In the Brother Love medley from Tom Jones, M and C have lines. In the recording of Bridge over Troubled Water all three share lead. In Something on Tom Campbell, Cindy actually had the echo call outs, not mary. Another shared lead on Flip Wilson and in live shows with Love the One You're With. And if you listen to the bootlegs of concerts, she had more speaking parts.

now it is still definitely the 3rd position in the group during the Jean years. but a much larger third position than DRATS

That was not a trial period. Motown was being sneaky about it... Diana and Mary didn't know Flo was gonna leave and Patti, Nona and Sarah were under the impression Cindy was still gonna be a member.

So both sets were equally shocked. No it wasn't a trial period. FLO thought when she returned that May [[after Cindy did some performance dates), that it was a trial period and only after her birthday party [[and before the performance that fateful July) did she realize she was gonna be permanently replaced and that's why she did what she did.

If it was a trial period, Flo wouldn't have done what she did. I guarantee it! I had to defend my girl Flo for a minute lol

**midnightman** · 03-22-2018, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Cindy was an original member of the Bluebelles. She was not an original member of the Ordettes, the group Patti had after Cindy's family moved back to Jersey. Cindy replaced Sundray Tucker in the Ordettes. This all was before they joined up with Nona and Sarah.

I need to buy Patti's book then. That'll give me a good idea of what happened with which but Sundray wasn't an original Ordette either. The original Ordettes were Patti, Jean Brown, Yvonne Hogen and Johnnie Dawson. Sundray replaced Dawson and then when the other two [[Brown and Hogen) left, Nona and Sarah came. The Ordettes just simply changed their name to the Bluebelles.

**marv2** · 03-22-2018, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

I need to buy Patti's book then. That'll give me a good idea of what happened with which but Sundray wasn't an original Ordette either. The original Ordettes were Patti, Jean Brown, Yvonne Hogen and Johnnie Dawson. Sundray replaced Dawson and then when the other two [[Brown and Hogen) left, Nona and Sarah came. The Ordettes just simply changed their name to the Bluebelles.

Jean Brown went to my church when I lived in Philly.

**sup_fan** · 03-22-2018, 04:19 PM

it is an interesting question about the Flo/Cindy situation. If Flo had not rebelled in Vegas, would she have stayed? or was it just a matter of time? was gordy done and ready to move on?

Given her problems, I wonder if she could have handle things through 70. assuming everything that happened in the DRATS would occur, I think she would have snapped. the issue of being totally looked over regarding Love Child, the chaos behind TCB and all, the continuing diminishing of the girls' role, etc.

**midnightman** · 03-22-2018, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

it is an interesting question about the Flo/Cindy situation. If Flo had not rebelled in Vegas, would she have stayed? or was it just a matter of time? was gordy done and ready to move on?

Given her problems, I wonder if she could have handle things through 70. assuming everything that happened in the DRATS would occur, I think she would have snapped. the issue of being totally looked over regarding Love Child, the chaos behind TCB and all, the continuing diminishing of the girls' role, etc.

I mean I do think she would've eventually exploded had it not been for Vegas but I think she was through. Berry wasn't trying to hear her and she was pissed at Diana and [[especially) Mary for not standing up for her enough.

But I think she was suffering from serious depression and alcohol was only messing her up even more. It's hard though. Maybe it was fate? I wish it wasn't. God, what a woman. RIP Flo. But when Cindy did join, she did what she had to do and I commend her for being a Supreme as long as she did and having fun with it [[as she seems to be having fun with that song posted).

**marv2** · 03-22-2018, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

it is an interesting question about the Flo/Cindy situation. If Flo had not rebelled in Vegas, would she have stayed? or was it just a matter of time? was gordy done and ready to move on?

Given her problems, I wonder if she could have handle things through 70. assuming everything that happened in the DRATS would occur, I think she would have snapped. the issue of being totally looked over regarding Love Child, the chaos behind TCB and all, the continuing diminishing of the girls' role, etc.

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

**Roberta75** · 03-22-2018, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

Flo told this?

**midnightman** · 03-22-2018, 06:35 PM

None of us were there to see what was going on but it's clear all Flo wanted was to return to what the Supremes used to be and when she realized it wasn't, she lashed out. THAT much is true.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

hahaha Ran - we seem to disagree on almost everything lol

That's alright Sup. We're just exchanging ideas and different perspectives. I enjoy reading your thoughts, among others like Midnight and a bunch of the others. I love that we can share our difference of opinion [[barring any misunderstandings) and still remain respectful.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

That was not a trial period. Motown was being sneaky about it... Diana and Mary didn't know Flo was gonna leave and Patti, Nona and Sarah were under the impression Cindy was still gonna be a member.

So both sets were equally shocked. No it wasn't a trial period. FLO thought when she returned that May [[after Cindy did some performance dates), that it was a trial period and only after her birthday party [[and before the performance that fateful July) did she realize she was gonna be permanently replaced and that's why she did what she did.

If it was a trial period, Flo wouldn't have done what she did. I guarantee it! I had to defend my girl Flo for a minute lol

Diana and Mary agreed on Flo leaving. They knew Gordy wanted her out and they approved that message. Flo said at a certain point she was aware that Cindy Birdsong was hanging around the camp, studying her. Flo was no dummy, she knew what Gordy was working toward. I think that's what caused her to lash out. My hypothesis is that Gordy would have never gotten rid of Flo if she had cleaned up her act and kept it up. As much of a dick as he was, getting rid of Florence was a last resort because she was a popular member of the group. Cindy was an insurance policy. It's unfortunate for Flo that she allowed Gordy a reason to use it.

But there was no shock on Diana and Mary's part. They were as guilty as Gordy was in kicking Florence out.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

I mean I do think she would've eventually exploded had it not been for Vegas but I think she was through. Berry wasn't trying to hear her and she was pissed at Diana and [[especially) Mary for not standing up for her enough.

But I think she was suffering from serious depression and alcohol was only messing her up even more. It's hard though. Maybe it was fate? I wish it wasn't. God, what a woman. RIP Flo. But when Cindy did join, she did what she had to do and I commend her for being a Supreme as long as she did and having fun with it [[as she seems to be having fun with that song posted).

Florence had some serious mental issues that were exacerbated by the situation she was in. She was a young woman who did not yet have the knowledge to use the tools she would have needed [[like keeping a level head) to cope with what was going on in the group. In a perfect world, Diana and Mary would have rallied around Florence, telling Gordy to back off and ease up a bit. Unfortunately both women were in their own worlds, looking after their own self interests, and were very young themselves, lacking some of the tools needed to successfully deal with their issues. What happened to Florence is life. She took some hits, got knocked down, got back up again, got knocked down again, got back up and unfortunately died so young. Both Diana and Mary and Berry and RanRan79 and Midnightman and Sup fan, etc., have taken our fair share of hits and gotten back up. Luckily for us [[hopefully) our stories aren't cut off so quickly. Diana and Mary have lived long lives full of more successes than punches at this point. Had Florence lived I think we'd say the same about her. What happened in the Supremes and her welfare years would only be a blip in her story.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

She said she told Gordy she wouldn't stand in Diana's way but she wouldn't leave the group. Flo didn't want to be a member of Diana Ross' Supremes, but I think if Gordy had been more man than asshole he could have gotten Florence on board, especially if she were to have the chance to step into the lead singer role after Diana left.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2018, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

None of us were there to see what was going on but it's clear all Flo wanted was to return to what the Supremes used to be and when she realized it wasn't, she lashed out. THAT much is true.

After she left, when asked if she would return to the group, she said if she ever did the name would have to go back to just the Supremes. So yeah, it's a safe bet that she wasn't feeling the changes.

**reese** · 03-23-2018, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by midnightman

I need to buy Patti's book then. That'll give me a good idea of what happened with which but Sundray wasn't an original Ordette either. The original Ordettes were Patti, Jean Brown, Yvonne Hogen and Johnnie Dawson. Sundray replaced Dawson and then when the other two [[Brown and Hogen) left, Nona and Sarah came. The Ordettes just simply changed their name to the Bluebelles.

There have been some old articles and books that said Patti and Cindy sang together in the Ordettes before merging with Nona and Sarah who were with the Del Capris. But that's not the way Patti tells it. She wrote that Cindy came in to audition for the spot vacated by Sundray, singing IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU. Patti, Nona, and Sarah, as well as their manager Bernard Montague were impressed and that's how she joined the group.

Not long after that, Harold Robinson produced a record on the Starlets under the name "the Bluebelles": I SOLD MY HEART TO THE JUNKMAN. However, the Starlets were under contract to another label. Once JUNKMAN began hitting, Robinson needed a girl group to promote the record. Patti, Nona, Cindy, and Sarah came in, and Robinson felt Patti was "too dark and too plain," in her words. But when she sang, he changed his mind, even later renaming her Patti LaBelle, French for "the beautiful." At that point, the girls became the Bluebelles.

JUNKMAN became a Top 20 pop hit that the girls didn't even record [[although they later did their own version on their first album). Patti's name was added to the billing once the girls found out there was already another Bluebelles in the performers' union.

**marv2** · 03-23-2018, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by reese

There have been some old articles and books that said Patti and Cindy sang together in the Ordettes before merging with Nona and Sarah who were with the Del Capris. But that's not the way Patti tells it. She wrote that Cindy came in to audition for the spot vacated by Sundray, singing IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU. Patti, Nona, and Sarah, as well as their manager Bernard Montague were impressed and that's how she joined the group.

Not long after that, Harold Robinson produced a record on the Starlets under the name "the Bluebelles": I SOLD MY HEART TO THE JUNKMAN. However, the Starlets were under contract to another label. Once JUNKMAN began hitting, Robinson needed a girl group to promote the record. Patti, Nona, Cindy, and Sarah came in, and Robinson felt Patti was "too dark and too plain," in her words. But when she sang, he changed his mind, even later renaming her Patti LaBelle, French for "the beautiful." At that point, the girls became the Bluebelles.

JUNKMAN became a Top 20 pop hit that the girls didn't even record [[although they later did their own version on their first album). Patti's name was added to the billing once the girls found out there was already another Bluebelles in the performers' union.

I remember I won a radio contest years ago when I gave the answer to a question "I Sold My Heart to the Junkman"! I forgot was now. I know it was tickets to something.

**luke** · 03-23-2018, 09:45 AM

I thought the Starlets were recorded in Chicago and Robinson was sued for saying it was the Bluebelles

**waynesville** · 03-23-2018, 09:54 AM

Slightly surprised that no-one on this thread has mentioned Cindy's gorgeous spoken part on The Wisdom Of Time..,

**sup_fan** · 03-23-2018, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by waynesville

Slightly surprised that no-one on this thread has mentioned Cindy's gorgeous spoken part on The Wisdom Of Time..,

I've thought Cindy could have handled the full lead on this tune

**sup_fan** · 03-23-2018, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

Diana and Mary agreed on Flo leaving. They knew Gordy wanted her out and they approved that message. Flo said at a certain point she was aware that Cindy Birdsong was hanging around the camp, studying her. Flo was no dummy, she knew what Gordy was working toward. I think that's what caused her to lash out. My hypothesis is that Gordy would have never gotten rid of Flo if she had cleaned up her act and kept it up. As much of a dick as he was, getting rid of Florence was a last resort because she was a popular member of the group. Cindy was an insurance policy. It's unfortunate for Flo that she allowed Gordy a reason to use it.

But there was no shock on Diana and Mary's part. They were as guilty as Gordy was in kicking Florence out.

sure they agreed but at that point in the situation, they really didn't have any other choice. Flo was ruining it for everyone. Both M and D were under the same stresses as Flo - they had to constantly be on the road, constantly rehearsing, constantly meeting press and public. and they still managed to get on the stage for performances, show up for interviews, be on time for rehearsals and recordings. Both women have said how insanely stressful this period was. they were working like dogs and Flo wasn't really being asked to do anything more than they were.

There have been stories from Cholly posts on here about HIS viewpoint of the matter. he stated that both girls loved Flo and really tried to help her. they didn't want her out of the group and didn't act subversively to maliciously oust her. For a long while they really tried to cover for her. But then at some point they had to start thinking about themselves. they'd worked so hard and why should they throw it away just because Flo couldn't [[or wouldn't) get it together. they were kids so it's somewhat understandable that they didn't think to get her some psychological care. that's an obvious solution today but not in 65 and 66.

M and D were put in a position of either allowing their career to be limited and potentially ended by Flo's behavior or saying ok - enough here. either step up or step out. I think they chose the right answer

**midnightman** · 03-23-2018, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by waynesville

Slightly surprised that no-one on this thread has mentioned Cindy's gorgeous spoken part on The Wisdom Of Time..,

I wonder what would've happened had she been allowed to sing lead on it? Might've been really good... [[I say the same thing about Marvin doing the intro to Harvey & the Moonglows' song, Twelve Months of the Year, and being allowed full lead on that; both songs missed opportunities for both).

**midnightman** · 03-23-2018, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

sure they agreed but at that point in the situation, they really didn't have any other choice. Flo was ruining it for everyone. Both M and D were under the same stresses as Flo - they had to constantly be on the road, constantly rehearsing, constantly meeting press and public. and they still managed to get on the stage for performances, show up for interviews, be on time for rehearsals and recordings. Both women have said how insanely stressful this period was. they were working like dogs and Flo wasn't really being asked to do anything more than they were.

There have been stories from Cholly posts on here about HIS viewpoint of the matter. he stated that both girls loved Flo and really tried to help her. they didn't want her out of the group and didn't act subversively to maliciously oust her. For a long while they really tried to cover for her. But then at some point they had to start thinking about themselves. they'd worked so hard and why should they throw it away just because Flo couldn't [[or wouldn't) get it together. they were kids so it's somewhat understandable that they didn't think to get her some psychological care. that's an obvious solution today but not in 65 and 66.

M and D were put in a position of either allowing their career to be limited and potentially ended by Flo's behavior or saying ok - enough here. either step up or step out. I think they chose the right answer

I have to sadly agree with this. It's a complex thing. But yeah, Mary & Diana eventually both realized covering for Flo would've been hurting what they had accomplished. Flo's demons took over after 1966.

**luke** · 03-23-2018, 10:57 AM

Flo was also treated very badly. Let’s not forget that.

**marv2** · 03-23-2018, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

sure they agreed but at that point in the situation, they really didn't have any other choice. Flo was ruining it for everyone. Both M and D were under the same stresses as Flo - they had to constantly be on the road, constantly rehearsing, constantly meeting press and public. and they still managed to get on the stage for performances, show up for interviews, be on time for rehearsals and recordings. Both women have said how insanely stressful this period was. they were working like dogs and Flo wasn't really being asked to do anything more than they were.

There have been stories from Cholly posts on here about HIS viewpoint of the matter. he stated that both girls loved Flo and really tried to help her. they didn't want her out of the group and didn't act subversively to maliciously oust her. For a long while they really tried to cover for her. But then at some point they had to start thinking about themselves. they'd worked so hard and why should they throw it away just because Flo couldn't [[or wouldn't) get it together. they were kids so it's somewhat understandable that they didn't think to get her some psychological care. that's an obvious solution today but not in 65 and 66.

M and D were put in a position of either allowing their career to be limited and potentially ended by Flo's behavior or saying ok - enough here. either step up or step out. I think they chose the right answer

I am sorry but this is not true. It has been documented by those who were eyewitness to many of the events that occurred with Florence that Diana Ross routinely called Mr. Gordy from the road to inform him of Florence's drinking and anything else she did not like or approve of. She, along with Mr. Gordy were constantly complaining to Florence about being overweight when she was actually a normal size for a grown woman. Those are just two things they used against her. The failure to have had counseling and treatment for the rape did not help matters either.

**marv2** · 03-23-2018, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by luke

Flo was also treated very badly. Let’s not forget that.

Exactly! There were instances where she was not even told when and where they would be interviewed or when important meetings were held. According to Mabel John who was there at the very beginning and who the Primettes/early Supremes provided background for, that Mary and Florence loved Diane but that she also knew that they hated her as well for the way she treated them! You have to tell the whole story.

honest man · 03-23-2018, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

I am sorry but this is not true. It has been documented by those who were eyewitness to many of the events that occurred with Florence that Diana Ross routinely called Mr. Gordy from the road to inform him of Florence's drinking and anything else she did not like or approve of. She, along with Mr. Gordy were constantly complaining to Florence about being overweight when she was actually a normal size for a grown woman. Those are just two things they used against her. The failure to have had counseling and treatment for the rape did not help matters either.

YES AND SHE WAS RIGHT TO DO SO,THE BACKGROUND SINGER WAS RUINING IT FOR THEM,AND MOTOWN Berry Gordy done well to keep her as long as he did,she thought she was untouchable,and he had to let her know he was the boss and she was an employee like the rest of his staff,jesus why do we keep talking same shit every few months on here,crap.

honest man · 03-23-2018, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

OMG how many times do you have to be told,that was part of the reason she was sacked along with bad behaviour,being pissed.lazy etc she had it coming to her especially throwing ale over her boss deserves to be sacked in itself,lastly she was a background singer and there was a queue from NY To Memphis ready to step in her shoes,no sympathy whatsoever she was trouble,and had to go.get the message,finally.

honest man · 03-23-2018, 01:11 PM

Back to subject Cindy was-is my fave background singer out of all Supremes incarnations,love her ,she was a perfect choice.cheers,

**sup_fan** · 03-23-2018, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

I am sorry but this is not true. It has been documented by those who were eyewitness to many of the events that occurred with Florence that Diana Ross routinely called Mr. Gordy from the road to inform him of Florence's drinking and anything else she did not like or approve of. She, along with Mr. Gordy were constantly complaining to Florence about being overweight when she was actually a normal size for a grown woman. Those are just two things they used against her. The failure to have had counseling and treatment for the rape did not help matters either.

I'm not saying that Diana [[and even mary) didn't have some culpability in all of this. of course they did. And yes, Diana had a uniquely close relationship with Berry and so the two of them were in constant communication. But there have been posts on here from people that interviewed and knew Cholly, Gil and others that were part of the organization. they clearly state that Diana was not conspiring against Flo, that both M and D were upset with how the situation was deteriorating and tried best the could to correct things. maybe Diana came to the conclusion ahead of Mary of "ok - let's either fix this or move on"

**luke** · 03-23-2018, 03:08 PM

And she was reminded she didn’t graduate from high school and criticized for being lazy when she had pneumonia.

**marv2** · 03-23-2018, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by luke

And she was reminded she didn’t graduate from high school and criticized for being lazy when she had pneumonia.

I remember that too. She was always being threaten that she was going to be "exposed".

**RanRan79** · 03-23-2018, 04:16 PM

Midnight, do your damn job and get everybody back on topic.

It's becoming another episode of that tired ass show The Supremes Wars. Even a troll has surfaced. Good grief.

**sup_fan** · 03-23-2018, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

Midnight, do your damn job and get everybody back on topic.

It's becoming another episode of that tired ass show The Supremes Wars. Even a troll has surfaced. Good grief.

lololol!! exactly

Well the topic was Cindy and her Boat Floating Down Stream. I think we've pretty well addressed that topic lol:

1. the song, regardless of who sings it, sort of sucks lol
2. this was recorded via a karaoke machine at Randy's house so it's not necessarily an accurate portrayal of Cindy's singing capabilities.
3. During Cindy's years with the Sups, she had limited lead vocal exposure. especially in the DRATS era. but as the 70s progressed, her role within the group expanded

**marv2** · 03-23-2018, 05:28 PM

I am not sorry I started this thread. I have people on ignore that have been there going on 2 years so they do not exist anymore to me on this forum.

**RanRan79** · 03-23-2018, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

I am not sorry I started this thread. I have people on ignore that have been there going on 2 years so they do not exist anymore to me on this forum.

You did a good thing starting the thread, that's not the problem. The problem is that its veered off into nonsense. Time to steer it back in place. Sup fan has summed the important stuff up in the post above yours. Cindy Birdsong has certainly blessed us with her talents over the years. Hope she's doing well.

**midnightman** · 03-23-2018, 07:37 PM

Wasn't she suffering health wise a while back? I know there was a post somewhere saying "pray for Cindy" or something like that. :/

But I hope for her sake that she's okay.

**midnightman** · 03-23-2018, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

Midnight, do your damn job and get everybody back on topic.

It's becoming another episode of that tired ass show The Supremes Wars. Even a troll has surfaced. Good grief.

LOL alright alright. I will.

Let's go back on the song, folks. PRONTO!

But I agree, let's all go back on topic... or at least keep it on Cindy at least if we go a bit "off topic"...

**TheMotownManiac** · 03-23-2018, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

Flo had no choice about it if she wanted to stay in the group. Nor Mary. It was what it was and it worked out perfectly. Diana’s stardom and star power fueled the group to its heights - especially impressive considering some of the crappy records they had after HDH split. All of their best TV work was after Flo split. Ross left the group with a platinum single, tons of press and in the hands of top producer Frank Wilson. Gil did their act, Cholly worked them, everything was in place as good as could be. Mary wanted a new start and got one. There was no reason not to do what Berry did. He’s been vilified for dumping JMC - but he can’t be blamed for not wanting to work with Jean. Flo wasn’t well enough to remain in the group no matter how it was billed. It’s sad, because she was so wonderful, but, not essential as it turned out.