Drummers...again!

[Nurnberg77]

I am still not satisfied that I can discern Benny Benjamin, “Pistol” Allen and Uriel Jones. I have recently fallen for “Say You” from The Tempts “Gettin’Ready” Lp. Now THAT’S Benny Benjamin, right?!!?

[Quinn]

I always thought it was "Pistol" playing on that song. Uriel as the second choice. I never thought Benny was the drummer simply because it lacks the feel and energy that he usually gave a track. With Benny you're looking for blinding speed, extensive use of fills,unique and inventive pickup's,unmatched technique for a studio drummer, and a metronomic sense of time. His foot is a great indicator too because it was the heaviest. With Pistol you're looking for the four bar pickup he demonstrated in "standing in the shadows of Motown". He doesn't have the feel or sense of time Benny does. He was a master at playing the fundamentals of the beat, a pocket player.Uriel was the funky one with a variety of things in his playing.He played hard and solid and was unpredictable. Listening to " Say You", if that's Benny that was a lazy day in the studio. The snare drum tuning,the average footwork,and relaxed drum rolls would rule Benny out for me. That's my favorite studio drummer along with Al Jackson Jr. I may be wrong,but I don't think that's "Papa Zita".

[bradburger]

'Say You' is definitely Benny Benjamin.

The Staunton and Walker productions usually had a unique drum sound and style when compared to other Motown tracks, and this is one of them.

[[And as I recall, they all featured BB, as he was the only one who could provide the heavy and unique drum sound they seemed to require for their productions).

For a comparison, if you want to hear Uriel on the 'Gettin' Ready' L.P, check out 'You're Not an Ordinary Girl', 'Fading Away' 'Too Busy Thinking About My Baby', 'Lonely Lonely Man Am I', 'I've Been Good To You' & 'Who You Gonna Run Too'.

And if you want to hear Pistol, 'Get Ready' is the obvious choice [[an example of him doing his best Benny impression), and 'Little Miss Sweetness' although listening to this closely, it's clear there are either two drummers on the track or it's an overdub of the original drum track.

Cheers

Paul

[Nurnberg77]

Great feedback and bradburger and Quinn! Thanks!

[Motown4Ever518]

Among two of my favorite individual things, Drumming and Motown. When you combine the two.....well....

The purple album covered Temptations Greatest Hits was my first LP that I owned, and after hearing the snare intro to Girl Why You Want To Make Me Blue, the snare fill on Don't Look Back, and the swung cymbal feel on The Girl Is Alright With Me, I decided right then and there I wanted to play the drums and still do.

Drum Magazine in the late 80's and Modern Drummer in the early 90's and again in the late 90's published some great articles about Motown Drumming. The bios were good, but what was better was that the later Modern Drummer article really broke down who played on what and surprisingly what songs had the primary drummer and a second drummer doing the fills, an example would be Get Ready.

From where I sit, I would say it is Double B on Say You. Unfortunately, I have listened to the song on the cheapest equipment to relatively expensive equipment, and the drums always sound muddled. Also from the very unsung Stauton and Walker team, on the Miracles 35th Anniversary Collection, Show Me You Can Dance, has a very elaborate fill and sadly, muddled drums as well. What I fondly remember as though it was yesterday, going straight to the then unreleased track and being blown away on the fill and then playing it again about 20 times and it never sounding like it did the first time I heard it.

[Quinn]

Among two of my favorite individual things, Drumming and Motown. When you combine the two.....well....

The purple album covered Temptations Greatest Hits was my first LP that I owned, and after hearing the snare intro to Girl Why You Want To Make Me Blue, the snare fill on Don't Look Back, and the swung cymbal feel on The Girl Is Alright With Me, I decided right then and there I wanted to play the drums and still do.

Drum Magazine in the late 80's and Modern Drummer in the early 90's and again in the late 90's published some great articles about Motown Drumming. The bios were good, but what was better was that the later Modern Drummer article really broke down who played on what and surprisingly what songs had the primary drummer and a second drummer doing the fills, an example would be Get Ready.

From where I sit, I would say it is Double B on Say You. Unfortunately, I have listened to the song on the cheapest equipment to relatively expensive equipment, and the drums always sound muddled. Also from the very unsung Stauton and Walker team, on the Miracles 35th Anniversary Collection, Show Me You Can Dance, has a very elaborate fill and sadly, muddled drums as well. What I fondly remember as though it was yesterday, going straight to the then unreleased track and being blown away on the fill and then playing it again about 20 times and it never sounding like it did the first time I heard it.

At least two of the first three tracks you mentioned featured the explosive and unique style Benny B was known for. On Get Ready Benny played the "Take No Prisoners" part after the sax solo. Listen to his drumming on "My Baby" by The Temptations or "Hot N Tot" or "Opus & Funk" by Earl Van Dyke and compare those masterful performances to the one on "Say You". That is very understated and laid back playing for Benny. I can't believe he was that versatile,that when he played on certain tunes you wouldn't think it was him. " Show Me You Can Dance" sounds closer to Uriel Jones to me. It's a shame "The Two Bobby's" didn't get the concept and as a result most of their material got canned. It's ironic that as soon as they landed at Golden World their former boss bought the label. The "Didn't I" lyric in HDH's "Standing In The Shadows Of Love" was also inspired by The Hit Packs song with that title. In fact they were in the studio when HDH were completing it. They also felt slighted, but you can't patent words in that fashion.

[bradburger]

Quinn,

I think you'll find that 'My Baby' & 'Girl, Why You Wanna Make Me Blue' where in fact Uriel Jones, and not Benny.

[[As was 'Since I Lost My Baby', 'It's Growing', & 'Don't Look Back').

As I mentioned, 'Get Ready' was Pistol, who had already laid down a drum track, only for Quality Control to ask for a more classic 'Motown' style beat to be overdubbed on the multitrack, which it duly was.

An acetate with a mix featuring the original drum track recently surfaced [[and was bought by a member here when it was put up on ebay IIRC), and was featured and discussed in this thread on the forum: -

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...-Drums-Version

Cheers

Paul

[Quinn]

Brad,I don't mean to be a tough customer here, but tell me where your getting your information from. I don't believe that Uriel Jones provided the beat for either of the songs "Girl" nor "My Baby". It was erroneously said in the Emperors Of Soul box set that he was the drummer.That's an error.Benny certainly is on "Get Ready" also,Pistol is playing along with him.I knew the backstory of the recording process of that song as Harold Keith Taylor was the engineer.Benny is on that track.Listen to "My Baby" again,if you think for one second that's Uriel Jones,he might as well be better than Benny.That's indisputably "Papa Zita".They called Uriel "Mini Benny" because of his ability to capture the style, but he couldn't duplicate Benny's feel or technique.He would tell you that himself as Benny inspired him and Pistol alike."The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" is Pistol doing a Benny impression as session notes prove,can't you tell?.Benny is also on "I Was Made To Love Her" with Pistol."Ain't Too Proud To Beg","Beauty Is Only Skin Deep","What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted" and "Ain't That Peculiar" are more the Uriel style.Check your sources and let's compare and contrast.

[bradburger]

Quinn,

I'm afraid I'am going to have to disagree with you on this one!

My sources?

Of course are the references I've read and heard over the years [[the same ones you and probably many others on this forum have as well), and then cross referenced with the most important thing, my ears which for the last 25 years or more have become well accustomed to the different members of the Funk Brothers!

When it comes to the Motown drummers, people will always look at the obvious and point out the fills.

"That's a Uriel fill, that's a Pistol fill, and that is a Benny fill......"

[[Pistol's interviews in Standing In The Shadows Of Motown can be blamed for people coming to these conclusions, because his explanation was rather modest and simple to say the least).

But as you well know, they all borrowed off each other, and as Uriel points out in the SITSOM documentary, both he and pistol tried to 'clone' Benny, which they both did very well indeed during the mid 60s. But of course, they could NEVER be Benny, hence how you can tell the difference, even if they are playing the same fills and style!

[[The tracks in my posts above are perfect examples of the Uriel and Pistol in Benny 'clone' mode).

What you need to be on the listen for is the feel and execution of the beat and the fills, and of course, the playing style.

For example, Benny was the master of the 'Four on the Flour' playing it like nobody else - just take a listen to 'Uptight' - he was like a metronome.

[[No wonder John Lennon was reported to have said "It sounds like their drummer is hitting it with a bloody tree!").

Now, listen to a 'Four on the Floor' by Pistol and it would be totally different. More airey, and much less solid than Benny, and often very fast and busier, such as the Isley's 'Tell Me It's Just A Rumour', or, as a comparison with 'Uptight', Stevie's 'Nothing's Too Good For My Baby'.

And it was the same with the so called 'Tamla Roll'. A Benny invention that the others could do very well, but never like Benny, because it was his and the way he executed it was his too.

Listen to one by Benny and it's explosive! 'My Girl' 'This Old Heart of Mine', 'Function at The Junction', and 'Love is Itching in My Heart' will train your ears and prepare them very well for identifying him in the future!

Now compare it with 'Pistol' on 'Get Ready' or Tammi Terrell's [[or indeed The Supremes) 'Come on And See Me' and you'll hear the difference!

[[Again, it's always best to use your ears!)

Whilst a lot of people have said that when Benny's health deteriorated and he did less and less sessions [[1967 onward), they used two drummers to replace him.

This is something of a myth, as we know that using two drummers on a session was a practice the producers and Funk Brothers used much earlier, such as 'I Was Made To Love Her' as you pointed out, and other tracks recorded earlier.

But one thing you have to consider is this.

Was the part played together, overdubbed later, or a brand new drum track overdubbed replacing the previous one, as in the case of 'Get Ready'?

So yes, drummer A could well have been on the track initially, but parts might have been added later drummer B or C, or indeed, the whole drum part! [[Or they could have all played parts of the kit together during the session, as Pistol says happened with 'I Heard It Through the Grapevine').

And then you have to consider a recut of a tune, something that happened quite a lot at Hitsville, as can be seen from the various amount of unissued material that has been released over the last 25 years or so.

Again, drummer A could have played on the first cut several months, weeks, or years before [[or later), but the released version used drummer C which wound up being the released version!

[[With so many sessions, it is easy to see why musicians can get confused and mixed up with what and which version they played on over the passage of time).

Another thing you have to consider is that by the mid 60s [[and just as Motown was reaching its peak), Benny's drug and alcohol use was increasing, and his health was deteriorating.

Whilst he was and always will be the undisputed king of the drums of Studio A, he was not always reliable [[we've all heard the stories!), so having both Pistol and Uriel on hand was a big plus if you wanted to hold sessions on schedule, round the clock, and as many days of the year!

And therefore I would argue that both Pistol and Uriel probably played on as many if not more tracks than Benny during this period [[65 -67), purely because you could rely on them 365 days a year!

Cheers

Paul

[Quinn]

I like your post very much and you said some fantastic things, but I still find things in which to question.Regarding what you said in the beginning of your post about the fills and the execution of the beat,it doesn't seem you read my previous posts.The feel,execution and playing style is how you determine who's playing what.You're statement about Benny being the master of the "Four On The Floor" beat is also inaccurate because it was actually Pistol.Pistol was also the master of the shuffle,which I can believe because when Benny plays it it's not clean nor steady.If Benny had a musical flaw it was definitely his inability to play a shuffle convincingly.A great example of Benny B playing the "Four On The Floor" groove is "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart",in which it has that metronomic sense of time I talked about previously.You also made a statement about them "borrowing from each other".I recall reading an interview that Uriel Jones granted Modern Drummer before he passed and he cleared many things up.He talked about how people always talk about who did this,that, and the other the best, but it all came from Benny at the end of the day.If Benny is the creator of the Motown beat aren't they borrowing from him?.Motown did use two drummers on certain tracks, but they would get one part on tape and dub the second part in.Two drummers were used occasionally, but they weren't there at the same time as people try to suggest."I Heard It Through The Grapevine"[[Gladys version)is Uriel playing the main rhythm and Benny playing the cymbal accents and fills.Marvin's version of it includes all three drummers,Uriel on the back beat,Pistol on "The Indian War Dance" tom tom pattern, and Benny on the foot.No need to go into the details of his destructive lifestyle that took him from this earth at age 43.Whatever the what's,why's,when's and where's may be,we as men have the right to stand firm where we are in this discussion.I can tell you have a passion for Motown music just as much as I do and you articulate it very well. I've spoken my piece,contributed my two cents,and with all due respect wish to debate with you no more.Appreciation for the music makes a much better conversation.

[TomatoTom123]

WOW, I’m learning a lot about drumming here

also, I don’t mean anything by this Quinn, it’s just that I really want to read your posts but they're kinda hard to keep up with! The English OCD part of my brain keeps screaming “paragraphs!” at me, lol

[Motown4Ever518]

Nurnburg77, An excellent thread, I hope you have gotten more information to assist you in noting the differences in style between the Terrific Three Drummers of Motown. Benny B was a giant. Uriel and Pistol were not chopped liver either. Benny could play on the most uninspiring song and the drumming approach would be not only be very imaginative, but sometimes more interesting than the song itself. As the predominant style of the Motown Sound had started to change, and Uriel and Pistol came in, the music called for a different approach. I believe that had they been called on to replicate a drum track from the early days, they could have done it, from a technical standpoint. Acknowledging that a drummers style is like a fingerprint, it would not have sounded the same as the feel would have been different. And then towards the end of the Golden Era, there was another shift in style, where the songs called for a more direct approach which Uriel and Pistol excelled at, and then moving forward, more drummers were brought in to handle the increased workload. Quinn you referenced the Harold Keith Taylor book, and that is where I feel the key to the Motown Drummers is, in the engineering. It is the sound that they got that we can even have this discussion. When you look at what was recorded on the west coast by world class drummers, you have to make an effort to hear the drums, which often times sound flat and desultory. Please listen to This Old Heart of Mine, done in Detroit and in LA and it does not appear to be the same song.