No matter what sign you are

**franjoy56** · 07-25-2017, 09:05 AM

After livln in shame which was barely enbraced by the Supremes and the composer which was never done on tv i thought nmwsyr was much superior to any of the drats singles after flo left it was uplifting had a pre disco sound and was lip synched on tv to a great performance besides berry gordy wrote it i was surprised it stalled at 31. It was one of my favorite drats singles

**blackguy69** · 07-25-2017, 09:14 AM

I wouldn't describe it as pre disco but it was more soulful than previous songs

**RanRan79** · 07-25-2017, 09:16 AM

I like it too, though not as much as I once did. I love "The Composer" but think it should've been nothing more than album track. Never understood why Motown thought it was a song that people would run out and buy, especially if they weren't going to promote on television. [[Does anyone know if they ever performed the song in their shows?) "No Matter" sounded much more like a hit.

**antceleb12** · 07-25-2017, 09:41 AM

I've always thought this song was a mess. To this day I can't get through it. Not to say the Supremes weren't soulful, but this just always seemed like they were forcing a 'soul' sound. I've always much preferred "The Composer."

**LoveSupreme** · 07-25-2017, 09:41 AM

I don't like this song at all. The production seems a bit rushed - it doesn't have a memorable melody or 'hook' and it's basically a rip-off of the hugely successful "Aquarius" from the rock musical "Hair". Just listen to the way Mary and Cindy [[or is it The Andantes) sing the word "aquarius" at the beginning of the song. It's so obvious.
Diana's high pitched screeching "ows" are downright annoying. This is one track I don't think twice of skipping. It's truly bad.

**blackguy69** · 07-25-2017, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by LoveSupreme

I don't like this song at all. The production seems a bit rushed - it doesn't have a memorable melody or 'hook' and it's basically a rip-off of the hugely successful "Aquarius" from the rock musical "Hair". Just listen to the way Mary and Cindy [[or is it The Andantes) sing the word "aquarius" at the beginning of the song. It's so obvious.
Diana's high pitched screeching "ows" are downright annoying. This is one track I don't think twice of skipping. It's truly bad.

It's not Mary or Cindy and it doesn't sound like the Adantes. I think it's the waters sisters doing the background

**LoveSupreme** · 07-25-2017, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by blackguy69

It's not Mary or Cindy and it doesn't sound like the Adantes. I think it's the waters sisters doing the background

Thanks, I figured it was anyone other than Mary or Cindy...at that point it could have been John, Paul, George or Ringo and no one would have known or cared.

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

After livln in shame which was barely enbraced by the Supremes and the composer which was never done on tv i thought nmwsyr was much superior to any of the drats singles after flo left it was uplifting had a pre disco sound and was lip synched on tv to a great performance besides berry gordy wrote it i was surprised it stalled at 31. It was one of my favorite drats singles

That performance on TV is what made us like that song at the time. I do not remember it being played a lot on radio, but it did get airplay.

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

I like it too, though not as much as I once did. I love "The Composer" but think it should've been nothing more than album track. Never understood why Motown thought it was a song that people would run out and buy, especially if they weren't going to promote on television. [[Does anyone know if they ever performed the song in their shows?) "No Matter" sounded much more like a hit.

It was about money and in that case, money for it's writer Smokey Robinson. Berry Gordy was back writing for the Supremes too with No Matter What Sign You Are. Two things. HDH had left, so that left a void and also in the Supremes early days both Smokey and Berry wrote and recorded songs on the group that went nowhere and made very little money.

Now that they were the top group, they took the chance to score with them themselves.

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by blackguy69

It's not Mary or Cindy and it doesn't sound like the Adantes. I think it's the waters sisters doing the background

I was only a kid then and near heard of the Andantes at that time. I, like others just assumed it was the Supremes on lead and background.

**luke** · 07-25-2017, 11:24 AM

Me too! I even told Cindy how I loved her and Mary's singing on the record..yikes! To me Motown threw everything but the kitchen sink in on that song...astrology, some soulful singing, Broadway...to get a hit. I loved the SOUND of it at least initially. And I believe it initially stormed up the charts and then stalled, which is exactly how I felt about it. It just didn't have the substance to keep going.

**nathanj06** · 07-25-2017, 12:59 PM

No Matter What Sign You Are...loved it. Always will. It was a great pop song and very current for 1969. I know there are numerous opinions regarding this song but not everyone is going to like the same thing no matter what it is. The same as some like The Composer and some don't but it did not have any single potential the same as The Weight with The Temptations. It has long been established The Andante's did background on this. As most agree, the Sullivan performance was stunning. The album, Let The Sunshine In, was a mish-mash of song selection when we've now seen what sat in the vault's. At the time I didn't know Florence recorded Let The Music Play but it certainly was a beautiful song that should have replaced the release of Composer. Livin' In Shame belonged on Love Child but we know why it wasn't due to being released later but it was out of place. So many "could have's", but it also should have included Young Folks. I personally love "Sign" and it did receive plenty of radio airplay locally where I lived at the time. Motown was everywhere.

**BigAl** · 07-25-2017, 01:19 PM

The only thing I liked about the song was that it allowed me to remember all the zodiac signs without leaving any out!

**Motown Eddie** · 07-25-2017, 02:51 PM

I've never been crazy about "No Matter What Sign You Are" by Diana Ross & the Supremes. I still think of that song as trying to ride on the coattails of The 5th Dimension's classic "Aquarius/Let The Sun Shine In" [[also feel that way about DRATS naming their 1969 LP Let The Sunshine In).

**franjoy56** · 07-25-2017, 03:00 PM

We all cant like. The same thing but to me it was different fresh soulful less poppish and was something of a new sound and went hanid and hand w the album let the sunshine in.

**jim aka jtigre99** · 07-25-2017, 03:09 PM

I think after Holland-Dozier-Holland left Motown, they brainstormed for Love Child because the songwriters who wrote specifically for the group was gone. Then it seemed like they tried to recapture Love Child with I'm Livin in Shame, which it seemed to do well because of that. After that, it seemed like they were trying everything to see what would hit. Both The Composer and Somethings You never Get Used To seemed hurried and rushed as songs-it seemed like they were over before you could catch your breath. No matter what sign you are was written by Berry Gordy because Diana Ross was into astrology and he was probably trying to show that he didn't believe in it and that love is from the heart not the charts. I would say it was a much better and catchier song than the others. Still, the Supremes didn't get back to consecutive top 25 hits until Jean Terrell joined when they hit 6 times. Looking back, we can hear the songs with different ears and enjoy them for what they are or not.

**144man** · 07-25-2017, 03:33 PM

I've never understood why so many Supremes' fans dislike "NMWSYA" and "The Composer". They're two of my favourite post-HDH releases.

**vgalindo** · 07-25-2017, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by 144man

I've never understood why so many Supremes' fans dislike "NMWSYA" and "The Composer". They're two of my favourite post-HDH releases.

Mine too. Love them both.

**detmotownguy** · 07-25-2017, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

I think after Holland-Dozier-Holland left Motown, they brainstormed for Love Child because the songwriters who wrote specifically for the group was gone. Then it seemed like they tried to recapture Love Child with I'm Livin in Shame, which it seemed to do well because of that. After that, it seemed like they were trying everything to see what would hit. Both The Composer and Somethings You never Get Used To seemed hurried and rushed as songs-it seemed like they were over before you could catch your breath. No matter what sign you are was written by Berry Gordy because Diana Ross was into astrology and he was probably trying to show that he didn't believe in it and that love is from the heart not the charts. I would say it was a much better and catchier song than the others. Still, the Supremes didn't get back to consecutive top 25 hits until Jean Terrell joined when they hit 6 times. Looking back, we can hear the songs with different ears and enjoy them for what they are or not.

Thank God for Jean Terrell for joining the The Sups for those top 25 hits.

**RanRan79** · 07-25-2017, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by 144man

I've never understood why so many Supremes' fans dislike "NMWSYA" and "The Composer". They're two of my favourite post-HDH releases.

Fans seem to have a good mix of emotions about "Sign". Some like it, some don't. But I haven't noticed very much talk of dislike for "The Composer". I think most people simply question the wisdom of releasing it as a single. But on it's own it's a great song.

**daviddh** · 07-25-2017, 06:30 PM

i don't care for Livin In Shame or Composer but I do like No Matter What Sign You Are, but,..... I think had this been released in 1967, it would have hit big,.............. but in 1969, the Doors , Joplin and Hendrix on the scene music had changed .but it was better than the other 2. I also think both were only album cuts. I would have went with another track from Love Child....Ill Set You Free, Does Your momma Know....both better than the others.imo.

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by detmotownguy

Thank God for Jean Terrell for joining the The Sups for those top 25 hits.

I was in musical Heaven when Jean Terrell join the group. LOL!!!!

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

I think after Holland-Dozier-Holland left Motown, they brainstormed for Love Child because the songwriters who wrote specifically for the group was gone. Then it seemed like they tried to recapture Love Child with I'm Livin in Shame, which it seemed to do well because of that. After that, it seemed like they were trying everything to see what would hit. Both The Composer and Somethings You never Get Used To seemed hurried and rushed as songs-it seemed like they were over before you could catch your breath. No matter what sign you are was written by Berry Gordy because Diana Ross was into astrology and he was probably trying to show that he didn't believe in it and that love is from the heart not the charts. I would say it was a much better and catchier song than the others. Still, the Supremes didn't get back to consecutive top 25 hits until Jean Terrell joined when they hit 6 times. Looking back, we can hear the songs with different ears and enjoy them for what they are or not.

What makes Jean's joining so incredible to me is that her very first record with the group went Top 10! When you consider that they did it without Holland-Dozier-Holland, Berry Gordy and Diana Ross LOL! They did it without full company support [[no record sleeve in the U.S. and Berry's edict that "I wash my hands of the whole goddamned group Mary wah, wah,wah, wah......hehehehehehehe!). There they were sounding glorious and standing near the top of the charts within months of "Someday We'll Be Together" falling off. Everyone involved with "Up the Ladder to the Roof" were different [[with the exception of the Funk Brothers) from the personnel involved with the recording "Someday We'll Be Together". Motown had talent to spare in those days......

**LoveSupreme** · 07-25-2017, 08:29 PM

Up the Ladder to the Roof is one of the best songs any version of The Supremes has ever recorded. It's a beautifully structured song both musically and lyrically. Props to that goes to Vincent DiMirco...a Puerto Rican brotha from NYC [[like me) for co-writing the song with the great Frank Wilson and playing some fierce guitar on the track.

**RanRan79** · 07-25-2017, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

What makes Jean's joining so incredible to me is that her very first record with the group went Top 10! When you consider that they did it without Holland-Dozier-Holland, Berry Gordy and Diana Ross LOL! They did it without full company support [[no record sleeve in the U.S. and Berry's edict that "I wash my hands of the whole goddamned group Mary wah, wah,wah, wah......hehehehehehehe!). There they were sounding glorious and standing near the top of the charts within months of "Someday We'll Be Together" falling off. Everyone involved with "Up the Ladder to the Roof" were different [[with the exception of the Funk Brothers) from the personnel involved with the recording "Someday We'll Be Together". Motown had talent to spare in those days......

That actually is incredible. And it just proved that the "new" Supremes had the goods- the voices, the look, the writing, the producing.

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by LoveSupreme

Up the Ladder to the Roof is one of the best songs any version of The Supremes has ever recorded. It's a beautifully structured song both musically and lyrically. Props to that goes to Vincent DiMirco...a Puerto Rican brotha from NYC [[like me) for co-writing the song with the great Frank Wilson and playing some fierce guitar on the track.

Because I like to share and appreciate accuracy I am saying this. Vince DiMirco is Italian-American [[Sicilian if you want to get technical) not Puerto Rican American. Vince is 74 and still lives in the Bronx.

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

That actually is incredible. And it just proved that the "new" Supremes had the goods- the voices, the look, the writing, the producing.

It also proves that the success of any recording does not rest on one person or one element of that recording. If something is off, the whole record can be "off". When everything is in a groove, then you got something. I would have loved to hear Bobby Taylor produce the Supremes.

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 09:37 PM

I found something special. Al Green's cover of "Up the Ladder to the Roof". I am going to start a separate thread so that everyone can fnid and hear it now.

**bradsupremes** · 07-25-2017, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

Fans seem to have a good mix of emotions about "Sign". Some like it, some don't. But I haven't noticed very much talk of dislike for "The Composer". I think most people simply question the wisdom of releasing it as a single. But on it's own it's a great song.

"No Matter What Sign You Are" has a great instrumental track. I like the song although it doesn't scream number one or top 10 hit to me. It could have done better if the lyrics were different and had a better mix.

I don't care one bit for "The Composer." Not just the Supremes' version, but also the Miracles' version too. I'm rather surprised it charted better than NMWSYA despite the fact there was hardly any promotion for it. It's clear it was released as single because Smokey wrote and produced it. Had it been written by someone like Ivy Jo Hunter or William Weatherspoon or Raynard Miner, it could have been thrown in the can. If Motown wanted to release a Smokey track for a single they should have picked "He's My Sunny Boy." Far superior track and I would bet it would have charted top 10.

**marv2** · 07-25-2017, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

"No Matter What Sign You Are" has a great instrumental track. I like the song although it doesn't scream number one or top 10 hit to me. It could have done better if the lyrics were different and had a better mix.

I don't care one bit for "The Composer." Not just the Supremes' version, but also the Miracles' version too. I'm rather surprised it charted better than NMWSYA despite the fact there was hardly any promotion for it. It's clear it was released as single because Smokey wrote and produced it. Had it been written by someone like Ivy Jo Hunter or William Weatherspoon or Raynard Miner, it could have been thrown in the can. If Motown wanted to release a Smokey track for a single they should have picked "He's My Sunny Boy." Far superior track and I would bet it would have charted top 10.

You are so right especially regarding "the Composer". I touch upon that in my post. Had it became a bit hit, Smokey would have made a chunk of money!

**Boogiedown** · 07-26-2017, 01:36 AM

Wow
I did not not know this song until now and I'm finding it very exciting!

imo, It sounds like something intended for The Jackson Five.
and the back-up vocals do not seem "supreme" . Too full? Too many voices?
hmm, that's not the J5 doing the backing is it!!

**copley** · 07-26-2017, 10:20 AM

This was the 2nd Supremes single that I disliked, the 1st was 'In And Out Of Love' which now don't mind. However I still can't stand 'Sign', too much shouting and yelling made it one big mess!

**imakicola** · 07-26-2017, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by blackguy69

It's not Mary or Cindy and it doesn't sound like the Adantes. I think it's the waters sisters doing the background

It does indeed sound like the waters sisters

**franjoy56** · 07-26-2017, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by daviddh

i don't care for Livin In Shame or Composer but I do like No Matter What Sign You Are, but,..... I think had this been released in 1967, it would have hit big,.............. but in 1969, the Doors , Joplin and Hendrix on the scene music had changed .but it was better than the other 2. I also think both were only album cuts. I would have went with another track from Love Child....Ill Set You Free, Does Your momma Know....both better than the others.imo.

If ill set u free was a single u would have heard mary and cindy on t track.

**snakepit** · 07-26-2017, 02:36 PM

According to DFTMC, Smokey recorded "The Composer" on the Miracles first..early 1967.
DRATS late 1968.
Surprised by that info.....

**thommg** · 07-26-2017, 03:16 PM

To be honest, I [[and a few of my Supreme following friends) did not care for I'm Living In Shame. It sounded too precious to us, the lyrics being a bit silly. I, personally, much preferred The Composer, which I find a wonderful album track. I'm on the side of those who believe it shouldn't have been a single. No Matter What Sign You are is always mentioned as being a knock off of Aquarius which I don't really understand. The only thing about them that is similar is the mentioning of the signs, which was a huge thing back then. We played that at parties and everyone sang along to the list of signs. I think it stalled because it was a nice song but not a great one. The Supremes seemed to be on a more soulful, relevant track after Love Child but aside from Shame, the songs released first took them back to their early coo-ing days and then to something a bit unspecific. The mess of tracks that formed the LP's shows that they were throwing anything against the wall to see what would stick. Motown didn't really have a plan for them. I mean, I like the LP's but their is no cohesion at all on the last couple.

**copley** · 07-26-2017, 04:11 PM

According to the notes in the pink velvet box set it is the Andantes on backing vocals.

**TheMotownManiac** · 07-26-2017, 05:27 PM

I love NMWSYA; Ross' vocal is inspired, fun and exciting, the track rocks and the big arrangement is perfect. It didn't hit, I believe, because the mix was so full with the sitar, guitar, violins AND full big vocals with the double set of percussion, that transistor radios and car speakers couldn't reproduce it clearly enough and it was a loud mess. It sounded great at home. No one I knew ever associated it with Aquarius. The big vocals are not The Andantes, they are The Blackberries as the entire track was cut in LA...... Louvaine Demps said she heard it on the radio, loved it, and wished she had been on it. She asked about it and found out.

I liked The Composer, but it's a weak single.
It did better than I expected as it was still moving up the chart when Motown pulled it for the sure-fire NMWSYA. Had Motown not done that, it might have gone top 20. It only stalled at 27 because not every station dropped it at once and it was still selling. QUOTE=copley;402937]According to the notes in the pink velvet box set it is the Andantes on backing vocals.[/QUOTE]

**Circa 1824** · 07-26-2017, 05:34 PM

Their performance of No Matter What Sign You Are was way too manic. Diana never stopped moving. It was a foreshadowing of the Supremes style after Ross. Crazy manic frenetic .........

**LoveSupreme** · 07-26-2017, 09:03 PM

If you listen to NMWSYA and hear the background singers when they first sing the word 'Aquarius' they are singing the word 'Aquarius' in very much the same way it is sung in the song 'Aquarius' from HAIR. It is so obvious not to notice why it was sung in that way that is why the comparison is often made...

**luke** · 07-26-2017, 10:30 PM

Wikipedia says it is the Andantes and that the Beastie Boys sampled it on Shake your rump on Paul's Boutique.

**marv2** · 07-26-2017, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Wikipedia says it is the Andantes and that the Beastie Boys sampled it on Shake your rump on Paul's Boutique.

I remember the Beastie Boys. I liked them back in the 80s.

**144man** · 07-27-2017, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Circa 1824

Their performance of No Matter What Sign You Are was way too manic. Diana never stopped moving. It was a foreshadowing of the Supremes style after Ross. Crazy manic frenetic .........

I tend to like records that are "crazy manic frenetic".

**franjoy56** · 07-27-2017, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by copley

This was the 2nd Supremes single that I disliked, the 1st was 'In And Out Of Love' which now don't mind. However I still can't stand 'Sign', too much shouting and yelling made it one big mess!

thats what soul is all about and i loved it a departure sound and it fit t changing times.

**antceleb12** · 07-27-2017, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

thats what soul is all about and i loved it a departure sound and it fit t changing times.

Soul isn't 'shouting' and 'yelling,' though. Soul still has musical form to it, which seems to be lacking almost entirely in 'Sign.'

**franjoy56** · 07-27-2017, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by antceleb12

Soul isn't 'shouting' and 'yelling,' though. Soul still has musical form to it, which seems to be lacking almost entirely in 'Sign.'

this is a fun loving song w sound effects and diana was stretching her vocqls giving t record an edge if it went top 40 somebodies loved it. T clubs in nyc loved it sly stone shouted in dace tt music so did the fifth dimensions aquarius t public had not heard such a sound from the supremes which is what stalled it unfortunately

**antceleb12** · 07-27-2017, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

this is a fun loving song w sound effects and diana was stretching her vocqls giving t record an edge if it went top 40 somebodies loved it. T clubs in nyc loved it sly stone shouted in dace tt music so did the fifth dimensions aquarius t public had not heard such a sound from the supremes which is what stalled it unfortunately

I mean, to each their own. The song just isn't my cup of tea

**franjoy56** · 07-27-2017, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by antceleb12

I mean, to each their own. The song just isn't my cup of tea

Well it is mine and thals why. I love it

**thommg** · 07-27-2017, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

"No Matter What Sign You Are" has a great instrumental track. I like the song although it doesn't scream number one or top 10 hit to me. It could have done better if the lyrics were different and had a better mix.

I can never keep up with different mixes and versions, but, wasn't there something about No Matter.... not having a real stereo mix? Does anyone know the story on that or am I mis-remembering?

**Sotosound** · 07-27-2017, 04:10 PM

I've got two different real stereo mixes on vinyl. One on Motown Chartbusters Volume 3 and one on a US MCA LP with Neil Diamond tracks on one side and DRATS tracks on the other.

When the track first came out I was probably 14 and to me it was just a catchy DRATS single with astrologically orientated words. Nothing more than that. I liked it, although not enough to spend my pocket money on. I owned it once I got my first copy of Motown Chartbusters Volume 3 and I've listened to it regularly ever since.

Great track. Not a number one, but still a goodun. Didn't analyse its style too much back in 1969 and still don't in 2017.