Diana Ross: The RCA Years [[By Popular Demand!)

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-07-2017, 10:29 AM

So several of us have been discussing Diana's run of LPs on the RCA label. During those years I found that some I bought, some I borrowed, and some just got away from me. Then, 3 years ago, Funkytown Grooves did an amazing job [[as always) re-releasing the entire RCA output in expanded editions - I bought them all!

It was good timing for me as I was installing an art show in a gallery about an hour and a half from home so for several days I listened to these wonderful releases in their entirety, back and forth in the car.

I was completely impressed with the excellent production of this string of lps and of course the gorgeous singing by our Miss Ross.

So being said, let's discuss the RCA years!

**RanRan79** · 07-07-2017, 12:23 PM

Oh I didn't realize you had finally created the RCA thread Peace. Okay, here goes. For me I'm always impressed [[well up until about 2005 or so) with Diana's vocals. For me that definitely is never the issue with the RCA output. It's the quality of songs. Most of it I just don't think was the direction she should have been going in.

She definitely created some winners for sure. I love "Mirror, Mirror", "Muscles", "Missing You" and "Swept Away" as singles. [[Had I had any say, I must admit, I never would have had her record "Swept Away" because, again, I just wouldn't have felt it was the stuff she should be doing, but in the end that's a damn good song and she killed it. I LOVE that one.)

But none of the albums were crafted to be that monster project like the Chic Diana album. She never should have been producing herself, first of all. And if she wanted to sale lots of copies of an album she needed someone established to give her the best chance.

Nitro mentioned Quincy Jones in another thread. I'm with that all the way. No, she probably wouldn't have had a "Thriller" on her hands, but I imagine a Diana Q album may have been as big or bigger than the Chic album.

Lionel Richie is another one. I think he was perfect for Diana. [["Missing You" anyone?) Diana's appeal to such a wide demographic coupled with Lionel's appeal and ability to craft songs that appealed to such a wide demo would have been a match made in heaven. Why in the hell she chose to work with the Gibbs is beyond me. No disrespect to them, but what about that situation said this would be the project that puts Diana back on top?

Finally, I would have given Luther Vandross the Red Hot project. Maybe even Narada Michael Walden. Or scrapped the Red Hot album altogether and put her back in the studio with Masser who did some great things after working with Diana.

**Bluebrock** · 07-07-2017, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

Oh I didn't realize you had finally created the RCA thread Peace. Okay, here goes. For me I'm always impressed [[well up until about 2005 or so) with Diana's vocals. For me that definitely is never the issue with the RCA output. It's the quality of songs. Most of it I just don't think was the direction she should have been going in.

She definitely created some winners for sure. I love "Mirror, Mirror", "Muscles", "Missing You" and "Swept Away" as singles. [[Had I had any say, I must admit, I never would have had her record "Swept Away" because, again, I just wouldn't have felt it was the stuff she should be doing, but in the end that's a damn good song and she killed it. I LOVE that one.)

But none of the albums were crafted to be that monster project like the Chic Diana album. She never should have been producing herself, first of all. And if she wanted to sale lots of copies of an album she needed someone established to give her the best chance.

Nitro mentioned Quincy Jones in another thread. I'm with that all the way. No, she probably wouldn't have had a "Thriller" on her hands, but I imagine a Diana Q album may have been as big or bigger than the Chic album.

Lionel Richie is another one. I think he was perfect for Diana. [["Missing You" anyone?) Diana's appeal to such a wide demographic coupled with Lionel's appeal and ability to craft songs that appealed to such a wide demo would have been a match made in heaven. Why in the hell she chose to work with the Gibbs is beyond me. No disrespect to them, but what about that situation said this would be the project that puts Diana back on top?

Finally, I would have given Luther Vandross the Red Hot project. Maybe even Narada Michael Walden. Or scrapped the Red Hot album altogether and put her back in the studio with Masser who did some great things after working with Diana.

Quincy Jones was originally slated to produce the rca debut. He had agreed to do it but he was delayed producing Patti Austin's Every home should have one. Rca wanted an album promptly to capitalise on the Chic album. Diana demanded to produce the album, and several of the songs slated for the Quincy Jones project were given to Donna Summer which Quincy produced on her.
Lionel was not available to do a full album on Diana but a couple of demos exist and another Richie production was recorded for, but not included on the Swept Away project. Luther literally begged Diana to let him produce a full album on her. She was impressed with his work with Aretha, but less so for Dionne. Luther held out for a full album but finally relented and did It's hard for me to say for the Red Hot album.
Michael Jackson wanted to produce a full album on Diana, but after the success of WDFFIL she wanted to produce the album herself again. Michael submitted several demos , a few of which i have heard and they were awesome.He later produced one of these tunes "your the one" on Jennifer Holliday much to Diana's disdain.
The Bee Gees wanted to work with Diana a few years before they actually did. Barry Gibb originally envisaged Islands in the stream as a duet between him and Diana, but she did not like the song and rejected it along with several other demos, so he gave it to Kenny and Dolly. Some of those demos ended up on Kenny's album. Diana finally realised her mistake and the Gibb brothers came on board for Eaten Alive.
Phew!! Those are some of the facts. Make of them what you will.

**Albator** · 07-07-2017, 01:32 PM

I have a passion for ROSS. I love this adult material and her singing. Now, I understand this is not her typical sound but in 1983, I din't know that. It was sophisticated and cold, distant, mysterious. I think she lost the album for many reasons and she lost an opportunity to find a new direction. "Swept away" was more a patchwork album whose aim something to please for everyone.
Overall, I also think she was a better singer in the eighties than before. She puts more of herself in the songs, even the weaker, and there were many many weak songs. Now being a better singer doesn't translate into a good album or even a good sound. As a producer she killed her voice and also, on many occasion she was lazy with her vocals.
I have a problem with Eaten Alive. She sings to high, or they ad speed in her voice, like on "swept away" and "telephone". I love those two, but she was not capable to perform them on stage as they were on her LP.

Even this silly boasting song "tell me again" was a winner.

She put the best of all that in her Motown albums, not in WO.
Unfortunatly, the nineties were formated by Houston and lattely by Carey, Celine Dion. A sophisticated singer like Diana Ross seemed anti climatic in those days, especialy at 45.

**Albator** · 07-07-2017, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Quincy Jones was originally slated to produce the rca debut. He had agreed to do it but he was delayed producing Patti Austin's Every home should have one. Rca wanted an album promptly to capitalise on the Chic album. Diana demanded to produce the album, and several of the songs slated for the Quincy Jones project were given to Donna Summer which Quincy produced on her.
Lionel was not available to do a full album on Diana but a couple of demos exist and another Richie production was recorded for, but not included on the Swept Away project. Luther literally begged Diana to let him produce a full album on her. She was impressed with his work with Aretha, but less so for Dionne. Luther held out for a full album but finally relented and did It's hard for me to say for the Red Hot album.
Michael Jackson wanted to produce a full album on Diana, but after the success of WDFFIL she wanted to produce the album herself again. Michael submitted several demos , a few of which i have heard and they were awesome.He later produced one of these tunes "your the one" on Jennifer Holliday much to Diana's disdain.
The Bee Gees wanted to work with Diana a few years before they actually did. Barry Gibb originally envisaged Islands in the stream as a duet between him and Diana, but she did not like the song and rejected it along with several other demos, so he gave it to Kenny and Dolly. Some of those demos ended up on Kenny's album. Diana finally realised her mistake and the Gibb brothers came on board for Eaten Alive.
Phew!! Those are some of the facts. Make of them what you will.

I didn't know.

**RanRan79** · 07-07-2017, 02:10 PM

Thanks for the additional information Bluebrock. So many missed opportunities. The Bee Gees and Diana would be okay if we're talking late 70s/early 80s [[Diana could've easily done the stuff on "Guilty"), but by 1985 it just didn't make sense.

Like I said, this woman had no business producing herself. How the hell do you turn down the likes of Michael Jackson to do your own stuff? Lol I bet there would've been a MJ and Diana duet too, which I'm having an eargasm just thinking about.

She turned down "Islands In the Stream" but heard "Pieces of Ice" and was cool with that??? What was wrong with this woman? LOL

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Quincy Jones was originally slated to produce the rca debut. He had agreed to do it but he was delayed producing Patti Austin's Every home should have one. Rca wanted an album promptly to capitalise on the Chic album. Diana demanded to produce the album, and several of the songs slated for the Quincy Jones project were given to Donna Summer which Quincy produced on her.
Lionel was not available to do a full album on Diana but a couple of demos exist and another Richie production was recorded for, but not included on the Swept Away project. Luther literally begged Diana to let him produce a full album on her. She was impressed with his work with Aretha, but less so for Dionne. Luther held out for a full album but finally relented and did It's hard for me to say for the Red Hot album.
Michael Jackson wanted to produce a full album on Diana, but after the success of WDFFIL she wanted to produce the album herself again. Michael submitted several demos , a few of which i have heard and they were awesome.He later produced one of these tunes "your the one" on Jennifer Holliday much to Diana's disdain.
The Bee Gees wanted to work with Diana a few years before they actually did. Barry Gibb originally envisaged Islands in the stream as a duet between him and Diana, but she did not like the song and rejected it along with several other demos, so he gave it to Kenny and Dolly. Some of those demos ended up on Kenny's album. Diana finally realised her mistake and the Gibb brothers came on board for Eaten Alive.
Phew!! Those are some of the facts. Make of them what you will.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-07-2017, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Quincy Jones was originally slated to produce the rca debut. He had agreed to do it but he was delayed producing Patti Austin's Every home should have one. Rca wanted an album promptly to capitalise on the Chic album. Diana demanded to produce the album, and several of the songs slated for the Quincy Jones project were given to Donna Summer which Quincy produced on her.
Lionel was not available to do a full album on Diana but a couple of demos exist and another Richie production was recorded for, but not included on the Swept Away project. Luther literally begged Diana to let him produce a full album on her. She was impressed with his work with Aretha, but less so for Dionne. Luther held out for a full album but finally relented and did It's hard for me to say for the Red Hot album.
Michael Jackson wanted to produce a full album on Diana, but after the success of WDFFIL she wanted to produce the album herself again. Michael submitted several demos , a few of which i have heard and they were awesome.He later produced one of these tunes "your the one" on Jennifer Holliday much to Diana's disdain.
The Bee Gees wanted to work with Diana a few years before they actually did. Barry Gibb originally envisaged Islands in the stream as a duet between him and Diana, but she did not like the song and rejected it along with several other demos, so he gave it to Kenny and Dolly. Some of those demos ended up on Kenny's album. Diana finally realised her mistake and the Gibb brothers came on board for Eaten Alive.
Phew!! Those are some of the facts. Make of them what you will.

Wow! Interesting, BB, and quite a tad to digest! I can understand Diana's desire to produce herself after the micro-managed Motown years. It's been said that she was quite disappointed with chart performance of both BIM and TB [[both performed quite well, but also both I think should have been top-10 smashes). So WDFFIL became an out-of-the-box hit and Ross thought she could do it again. So be it. Lots of performers [[singers and actors) get to thinking they can make better career decisions for different reasons. I was interested recently when Barry Manilow admitted he couldn't pick a hit song if it fell on him, and Melissa Manchester also went full-on with Clive Davis and probably lost out on more hits after 'Don't Cry ...' which she hated.

Now, in my opinion the QJones Summer lp was a bloated mess, and we would do well to remember that it was not really a hit. The MJ material would be of interest; what sort of sound did the material have? And certainly a Luther production could have been a beauty, but again his second lp with Aretha [['Get It Right') didn't yield much traffic and in fact sounded a bit like outtakes from 'Jump To It'.

SOOO my point is: the lady made her decisions, but the 'could-a-beens' may have turned out to have been 'should-a-beens' anyway!

**RanRan79** · 07-07-2017, 02:16 PM

Ross 83 is good. Nothing to knock your socks off, but it's solid. My favorites on there are "Let's Go Up" [[LOVE that song), "You Do It" and "Love or Loneliness". The Swept Away album was pretty good for what it was, but most of the material I would not have chosen for her.

To me her best song for song album is Silk Electric, but outside of "Muscles" it still wasn't something that I would have chosen for her. Those same songs could have gone to just about anyone else and still had the same effect.

Why "So Close" was chosen as a single make no sense to me. I love the song but nothing about it says hit in the 80s. 1962 maybe.

Originally Posted by Albator

I have a passion for ROSS. I love this adult material and her singing. Now, I understand this is not her typical sound but in 1983, I din't know that. It was sophisticated and cold, distant, mysterious. I think she lost the album for many reasons and she lost an opportunity to find a new direction. "Swept away" was more a patchwork album whose aim something to please for everyone.
Overall, I also think she was a better singer in the eighties than before. She puts more of herself in the songs, even the weaker, and there were many many weak songs. Now being a better singer doesn't translate into a good album or even a good sound. As a producer she killed her voice and also, on many occasion she was lazy with her vocals.
I have a problem with Eaten Alive. She sings to high, or they ad speed in her voice, like on "swept away" and "telephone". I love those two, but she was not capable to perform them on stage as they were on her LP.

Even this silly boasting song "tell me again" was a winner.

She put the best of all that in her Motown albums, not in WO.
Unfortunatly, the nineties were formated by Houston and lattely by Carey, Celine Dion. A sophisticated singer like Diana Ross seemed anti climatic in those days, especialy at 45.

**Albator** · 07-07-2017, 02:19 PM

I love the Donna Summer 1983 LP. But what worked for Donna was not necessarily going to work for Diana.
I'm not sure the complicated funk of Quincy Jones would have been well suited for her voice.
Furthermore, he was tremendously successful with M Jackson but not as successful with others including Sinatra, Melissa Manchester, Patti Austin or James Ingram.

I also think it is essential to be in the hand of a great manager, especially when you are an entertainer.
When Olivia Newton John went big headed and thought of herself as if she was Barbra Streisand, she didn't listen her manager Roger Davis, and went on to do an over sexy LP she couldn't promote because she was pregnnant. Well he went with Tina Turner, and obliged her to sing those heavy rock tunes instead of her more rooted r&b, and they won!

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-07-2017, 03:18 PM

Regarding RHR&B it seems to be that based on the out-takes included in the FTG reissue the LP was originally meant to be an all-covers LP, then later that idea was jettisoned to include some contemporary material. Do we know if this was the case? I LOVE Diana's takes particularly on 'Selfish One' and 'Mr. Lee'.

**thommg** · 07-07-2017, 04:37 PM

I wasn't too thrilled with Diana's RCA output at the time. I have a renewed appreciation for it today. The remastered sets were wonderful [[yes, I already had all the albums on CD but I bought them again). The sound quality was so much better. But, the thing I enjoyed most was reading the booklets that explained a bit why Diana made the choices she did and what she wanted to accomplish. We just received the end results, which many times may not quite hit the heights of artistry that someone strives for. Still, it was interesting to me to get an idea of what was in her mind. I loved the Gary Katz produced tracks on Ross 83 and wish he had done more. I heard a story that Shine was written for her by Mick Hucknall but she wasn't doing anything with it so he recorded it himself with Simply Red. Then she did it for the Red Hot lp. Bluebrock, is there any truth to that story? You hear these things but never really know if they are true or not.

**vgalindo** · 07-07-2017, 06:54 PM

I just want to say I love her RCA output. It was an exciting time to be a Diana Ross fan. A new album and tour every year. What more could you ask for. My favorites being Eaten Alive and Silk Electric. I wore these two out!!

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-07-2017, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by thommg

I wasn't too thrilled with Diana's RCA output at the time. I have a renewed appreciation for it today. The remastered sets were wonderful [[yes, I already had all the albums on CD but I bought them again). The sound quality was so much better. But, the thing I enjoyed most was reading the booklets that explained a bit why Diana made the choices she did and what she wanted to accomplish. We just received the end results, which many times may not quite hit the heights of artistry that someone strives for. Still, it was interesting to me to get an idea of what was in her mind. I loved the Gary Katz produced tracks on Ross 83 and wish he had done more. I heard a story that Shine was written for her by Mick Hucknall but she wasn't doing anything with it so he recorded it himself with Simply Red. Then she did it for the Red Hot lp. Bluebrock, is there any truth to that story? You hear these things but never really know if they are true or not.

We have VERY similar taste! I was 'whatever' about the Katz material at the time, but after hearing the re-releases, I was hooked. And the Ray Parker material, too. And 'Shine'? Just GORGEOUS all around. A simple masterpiece, methinks.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-07-2017, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by vgalindo

I just want to say I love her RCA output. It was an exciting time to be a Diana Ross fan. A new album and tour every year. What more could you ask for. My favorites being Eaten Alive and Silk Electric. I wore these two out!!

I was a SE fan as well. 'Let's Go Up'? Fuggetabouit - should have been a major hit. At the time I did not love the vocal sound of EA but I just love it now. It's interesting that there is a percentage of fans who love the RCA years; my dear departed friend Artie did at the time and I doubted him. Lordy knows why. But yes, a new LP and tour every year?! What could be better? And face it. The girl always sang like a SUNOFA-twitch! SO under-rated as a singer, Ross is.

**RanRan79** · 07-07-2017, 07:30 PM

That's a fact with every producer though. There's no one out there who touches gold every time they make a production. And while I wouldn't call Q's Donna Summer album bad, it wasn't very good either. Still, I think a Diana Ross/Quincy Jones collab would have pulled in decent numbers on the names alone. If he managed to tailor fantastic tunes for her, the album could've gone over the moon. Diana's vocals on The Wiz soundtrack are fantastic. If nothing else we surely would've gotten some great Diana vocals.

Originally Posted by Albator

I love the Donna Summer 1983 LP. But what worked for Donna was not necessarily going to work for Diana.
I'm not sure the complicated funk of Quincy Jones would have been well suited for her voice.
Furthermore, he was tremendously successful with M Jackson but not as successful with others including Sinatra, Melissa Manchester, Patti Austin or James Ingram.

I also think it is essential to be in the hand of a great manager, especially when you are an entertainer.
When Olivia Newton John went big headed and thought of herself as if she was Barbra Streisand, she didn't listen her manager Roger Davis, and went on to do an over sexy LP she couldn't promote because she was pregnnant. Well he went with Tina Turner, and obliged her to sing those heavy rock tunes instead of her more rooted r&b, and they won!

**RanRan79** · 07-07-2017, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

Regarding RHR&B it seems to be that based on the out-takes included in the FTG reissue the LP was originally meant to be an all-covers LP, then later that idea was jettisoned to include some contemporary material. Do we know if this was the case? I LOVE Diana's takes particularly on 'Selfish One' and 'Mr. Lee'.

"Selfish One" is the best thing on there. She's does a beautiful rendition of it. I also think she does a good job with "There Goes My Baby", which is extra special considering it was one of the tunes she led as a Primette. The outtake "Sweet Soul Music" is pretty good also. The woman could flat out sing. Just needed the material.

**RanRan79** · 07-07-2017, 07:38 PM

"Eaten Alive" was a horrible choice of direction. HORRIBLE. I liked the song as a kid [[and the video) but the older I got the more I began to abhor it. It wasn't until a few years ago that I seen Diana's performance of it on the AMAs that I actually started to dig the song again. I still think it should have been a "no", but it's actually a song I play now thanks to her great singing.

**daviddh** · 07-07-2017, 08:06 PM

hmmm RCA. well some I liked but some not.
WHY DO FOOLS FALL lp .nope. hated it. worst lp since ,LAST TIME I SAW HIM. flat boring songs. disappointing follow up to Diana.
Silk Electric. better,liked Who ,Love Lies. but it needed another single.
ROSS. liked side 1 but didn't like the Ray Parker stuff. seemed like old supremes rejected tracks...Up Front??? really.
Swept Away, return to form for Diana. better album better vocals.
but I don't think Diana was as visable and some songs didn't do as well. Where was she. didn't see her much on tv.
Eaten Alive, glad she didn't produce herself . she needs someone to guide her. some good vocals and songs. Chain Reaction should have been the first single. Crimes Of Passion is the bomb......how did this not get s single release????
Red Hot....good album.....but old by the time this came out. this would have been a hit in 1983 but by 1987.nope. Diana was gone for too long. 2 years off and peeps forgot . she needed to concentrate on singles like they did when Love Child was written for the supremes.
another 2 years until WO. geez. what was she thinking.
I don't understand how artists plan an album but Diana seems to just let the producers make it happen. was she not envolved?
I don't know where she was going with this decade. why not work with Ashford and Simpson. why not Luther....seriously. big head...? confusing . I think I could make 2 good lps out of most of her RCA albums

**daviddh** · 07-07-2017, 08:10 PM

there is one unreleased album from RCA. a standards lp. cant remember for sure

**dickiemint** · 07-07-2017, 08:21 PM

Miss Ross came out of the gates running with WDFFIL a massive UK hit, and 3 more top 40 UK hits on that album then Silk Electric only one hit Muscles , Swept Away no hits even missing you failed to break UK charts Eaten Alive gave miss Ross her biggest ever UK no 1 in Chain Reaction but no follow up hit Experience charted for 1week Dirty Looks got top 40 but miss Ross didn't return to form until Force Behind the Power which was huge in UK with 5 - top 40 hits on her Motown return [[ although all this output was Capitol / EMI UK ) my personal favourite from RCA years would be it hard for me to say and RHRAB l.p.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-07-2017, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by dickiemint

Miss Ross came out of the gates running with WDFFIL a massive UK hit, and 3 more top 40 UK hits on that album then Silk Electric only one hit Muscles , Swept Away no hits even missing you failed to break UK charts Eaten Alive gave miss Ross her biggest ever UK no 1 in Chain Reaction but no follow up hit Experience charted for 1week Dirty Looks got top 40 but miss Ross didn't return to form until Force Behind the Power which was huge in UK with 5 - top 40 hits on her Motown return [[ although all this output was Capitol / EMI UK ) my personal favourite from RCA years would be it hard for me to say and RHRAB l.p.

It's always interesting to me, what is a hit in the UK and not America, and vise-versa. I think it frequently came down to the individual radio programmers who liked [[or didn't) certain singles and decided to feature them with airplay [[... or, ... not)

**Circa 1824** · 07-07-2017, 09:02 PM

I think the fact that her RCA catalog is essentially all but forgotten speaks volumes to its quality and interest to the general population.

**Bluebrock** · 07-08-2017, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by thommg

I wasn't too thrilled with Diana's RCA output at the time. I have a renewed appreciation for it today. The remastered sets were wonderful [[yes, I already had all the albums on CD but I bought them again). The sound quality was so much better. But, the thing I enjoyed most was reading the booklets that explained a bit why Diana made the choices she did and what she wanted to accomplish. We just received the end results, which many times may not quite hit the heights of artistry that someone strives for. Still, it was interesting to me to get an idea of what was in her mind. I loved the Gary Katz produced tracks on Ross 83 and wish he had done more. I heard a story that Shine was written for her by Mick Hucknall but she wasn't doing anything with it so he recorded it himself with Simply Red. Then she did it for the Red Hot lp. Bluebrock, is there any truth to that story? You hear these things but never really know if they are true or not.

Yes that story is pretty much true. Hucknall and producer Stuart [[Stewart?) Levine wanted to do a whole album with Diana. They did have a meeting but the idea never got out of 1st gear. It could have been good.
She was going to record two albums at this particular time. One was a covers album as the soundtrack for RHRAB and the other an album of contemporary material, but in the end the idea was abandoned and the two albums were amalgamated into the one album.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-08-2017, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Yes that story is pretty much true. Hucknall and producer Stuart [[Stewart?) Levine wanted to do a whole album with Diana. They did have a meeting but the idea never got out of 1st gear. It could have been good.
She was going to record two albums at this particular time. One was a covers album as the soundtrack for RHRAB and the other an album of contemporary material, but in the end the idea was abandoned and the two albums were amalgamated into the one album.

Ah-ha! So there's the explanation for the rather bifurcated material on RHRAB. But it's still a great LP. The Hucknall/Levine LP is indeed a loss to us fans, though. I would guess there was just not enough time to get 2 lps going.

**daviddh** · 07-08-2017, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Yes that story is pretty much true. Hucknall and producer Stuart [[Stewart?) Levine wanted to do a whole album with Diana. They did have a meeting but the idea never got out of 1st gear. It could have been good.
She was going to record two albums at this particular time. One was a covers album as the soundtrack for RHRAB and the other an album of contemporary material, but in the end the idea was abandoned and the two albums were amalgamated into the one album.

thank you for the insight.always a pleasure to get the inside info to help put the pieces together. still not sure why Diana did use what worked in the past but I am also assuming at this point she was tired of being told what to do and wanted some freedom to express herself.

**sup_fan** · 07-08-2017, 10:29 AM

i think there is some decent material, some bad/weak and a few really good ones.

WDFFIL - overall i think this is a good album. not a great one but it does sound contemporary [[for 1981). True she was coming off the chic album and so WDFFIL sounds weaker. but IMO diana 1980 sounded weak after the masterpiece of The Boss. On Boss, Diana's vocals are far stronger, the songs are much more complex and intriguing, the production is spot on. To me, this was a marriage of D and A&S. the producers are partnering with Diana to create this set. On diana, she's a guest vocalist

Silk - again not a bad album, not groundbreaking. it's a little bit too pot pourri. and there's too much reverb on the tracks. muscles is a hot song but the muffled effect that MJ and even Janet J use is not effective on Diana

Ross - this one at least comes off as a more cohesive set than silk. interesting songs but again, not groundbreaking

Swept Away - although this is another potpourri set, it sounds more cohesive than Silk. Touch by Touch is a very strong mid-80s song that should have been the follow up to Missing You.

Eaten Alive - my least favorite. here the muffled effects ruin her vocals. and the natural nasality of Diana's voice combined with the nasal falsetto of the Bee Gees is a horrid combination. i think the songs and productions sound fine but the vocals all around are hideous

Red Hot - too much of a mishmash and the "contemporary" songs don't really sound it. by this time r&b music was evolving and this sounds outdated

**thommg** · 07-08-2017, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Yes that story is pretty much true. Hucknall and producer Stuart [[Stewart?) Levine wanted to do a whole album with Diana. They did have a meeting but the idea never got out of 1st gear. It could have been good.
She was going to record two albums at this particular time. One was a covers album as the soundtrack for RHRAB and the other an album of contemporary material, but in the end the idea was abandoned and the two albums were amalgamated into the one album.

It's a shame the Hucknall/Levine album didn't happen. Mick Hucknall's musical sensibilities would have fit Diana well. Thanks for the verification, Bluebrock.

**Albator** · 07-08-2017, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think there is some decent material, some bad/weak and a few really good ones.

WDFFIL - overall i think this is a good album. not a great one but it does sound contemporary [[for 1981). True she was coming off the chic album and so WDFFIL sounds weaker. but IMO diana 1980 sounded weak after the masterpiece of The Boss. On Boss, Diana's vocals are far stronger, the songs are much more complex and intriguing, the production is spot on. To me, this was a marriage of D and A&S. the producers are partnering with Diana to create this set. On diana, she's a guest vocalist

Silk - again not a bad album, not groundbreaking. it's a little bit too pot pourri. and there's too much reverb on the tracks. muscles is a hot song but the muffled effect that MJ and even Janet J use is not effective on Diana

Ross - this one at least comes off as a more cohesive set than silk. interesting songs but again, not groundbreaking

Swept Away - although this is another potpourri set, it sounds more cohesive than Silk. Touch by Touch is a very strong mid-80s song that should have been the follow up to Missing You.

Eaten Alive - my least favorite. here the muffled effects ruin her vocals. and the natural nasality of Diana's voice combined with the nasal falsetto of the Bee Gees is a horrid combination. i think the songs and productions sound fine but the vocals all around are hideous

Red Hot - too much of a mishmash and the "contemporary" songs don't really sound it. by this time r&b music was evolving and this sounds outdated

Agree with most of it, if not all.
About "swept away" am i the only one to think her voice was accelerated on 'telephone" and "swept away"?

**Circa 1824** · 07-08-2017, 03:54 PM

IMHO, 99% of the RCA output stunk, and I can't put French perfume on a pig. I could never revisit that music. Her ability to "produce" and "executive produce" was repeatedly demonstrated to be non-existent.

It boggles the mind to think she would repeat the same failed shit over and over throughout her RCA tenure. Was there no one around her with any power and sense? I say that as a long-time fan who did not abandon her sinking ship.

I bought everyone of those damn RCA turkey's. If I remember correctly, I was always disappointed each LP had only 8 songs instead of the usual 10. Now I think it might have been a blessing.

**Boogiedown** · 07-09-2017, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by Circa 1824

IMHO, 99% of the RCA output stunk, and I can't put French perfume on a pig. I could never revisit that music. Her ability to "produce" and "executive produce" was repeatedly demonstrated to be non-existent.

It boggles the mind to think she would repeat the same failed shit over and over throughout her RCA tenure. Was there no one around her with any power and sense? I say that as a long-time fan who did not abandon her sinking ship.

I bought everyone of those damn RCA turkey's. If I remember correctly, I was always disappointed each LP had only 8 songs instead of the usual 10. Now I think it might have been a blessing.

Wow Circa pretty harsh!!!
And sorry to have to say, but I agree with you

But then I suspect you, like me, as "long-time fans" , got to experience Diana's Motown material first-hand , up-close, and personal. Coming from that perspective, yes the RCA stuff was really a come down.

**daviddh** · 07-09-2017, 08:26 AM

I am not familiar with Hucknail ..Levine....sorry to say.
but it does seem that she did not have a plan

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-09-2017, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by daviddh

I am not familiar with Hucknail ..Levine....sorry to say.
but it does seem that she did not have a plan

Hucknell is the lead singer of the UK soul revival group 'Simply Red'

**daviddh** · 07-09-2017, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

Hucknell is the lead singer of the UK soul revival group 'Simply Red'

thank you. love his voice.

**Circa 1824** · 07-09-2017, 09:21 PM

Imagine a duet with Diana and Michael Hucknail !!!!

**Bluebrock** · 07-10-2017, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

Hucknell is the lead singer of the UK soul revival group 'Simply Red'

And Stewart Levine produced a lot of early 80's Brit pop such as Culture Club. Very talented guy.

**Albator** · 07-10-2017, 05:57 AM

Even so I wasn't that familiar with standard songs she did for this album, I noticed her vocals were boldness. This is strange since Tom Dowd is a great producer but he din't achieve with her what Ariff Martin did latter.

At that time, maybe in 83, Donna Summer gave her own lecture of "there goes my baby" and in comparison, Diana's rendition seemed a bit childish. This was reinforced by the sameness of some songs like Selfish one, cross my heart and the embarrassing immature shockwaves "drrrrrrrrrr"

Of course since I hope we all grow and learn, I have changed my mind a little bit. her "there goes my baby" is great even if restrained.
Sog for song, all are great. It's as a whole that it's boring and not red hot at all. With a title like that I expected a Prince kind of production and not an endless "love boat" theme.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-10-2017, 09:08 AM

‘Why Do Fools Fall In Love’
After a legendary 20 year recording career with Motown, a period during which Diana Ross and Motown helped define each other, Ross signed what was reportedly the biggest recording contract ever with a new label, RCA. Ross had just come off a trio of superb LPs [[BIM, TB, and d/Chic) that were ecstatically received by fans but met with varying degrees of sales and airplay success so the stakes could hardly have been higher for the debut RCALP, WDFFIL. And the lady stepped up to the plate and hit one out of the ballpark!

The LP opens with an updated take on the Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers' classic 'Why Do Fools Fall In Love', which seems like an odd selection for an artist making a new beginning, but a nice bouncy arrangement coupled with Ross's superb vocal and a winning video made the lead single a smash hit. 'Sweet Surrender', a mid-tempo ballad follows with a contemporary arrangement featuring excellent guitar and some wonderful vocalese by Ross at the song's conclusion.

The lp kicks into gear on the theirsong, the rocking guitar-led 'Mirror Mirror', a fable ofself-deception leading to self-recognition that Ross really nails.The first side of the lp concludes with Diana's solo rendition of 'Endless Love', with an arrangement nearly identical to the hit version [[with Lionel Ritchie) Ross' singing on this solo version is sublime: emotional without being overwrought, pitch-perfect and featuring the lady's always impeccable lyric diction and some soaring vocal runs making this a candidate for one of Diana's best recorded vocals.

Side two opens with the Philly-soul sounding 'It's Never Too Late', an inspiring lyric with an excellent call-and-response vocals between Ross and the backing singers. 'Think I'm In Love' is a great Quiet Storm-style number and 'Sweet Nothings' is a funky uptempo with a tougher vocal by Ross and nice sax work. 'Two Can Make It' is another nice mid-tempo with a happy lyric. The lp concludes with a hit novelty number, 'Work That Body',a fun and silly dance sizzler that could have used more lyrics but was yet another chart hit from the album.

Nearing 36 years after it's September 1981 release WDFFIL remains a highly listenable lp for fans of this extraordinary singer.

**Guy** · 07-10-2017, 09:33 AM

The RCA years were a mess. At the moment, I am really appreciating "Telephone." Her vocal is like warm chocolate over ice cream. The perfect complement for the spare track.

**RanRan79** · 07-10-2017, 11:40 AM

"Why Do Fools Fall In Love" is a testament to the star power that was Diana Ross because I'll never understand why that crap was a hit. Of her RCA hits it's the one IMO that absolutely positively doesn't hold up. It sounds like a Karaoke track. For anyone else this cut as a first single on a new label would have been a kiss of death.

But I'm going to have to revise my original opinion about the Fools album. I think it's the horrible title cut that turns me off the album because honestly the rest of the songs isn't bad at all. In fact I would say the rest of the album songs go from good to great [["Mirror, Mirror" being the one great). "Sweet Surrender" is very nice. Her solo reading of "Endless Love" is almost perfect. "Work That Body" is highly underrated and should've been a bigger hit. I wonder if the song would have done better if it had been the first single instead of that other crap. She was still riding high off the funky Diana album and "Mirror, Mirror" and "Work That Body" keep with that vibe.

**Albator** · 07-11-2017, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

"Why Do Fools Fall In Love" is a testament to the star power that was Diana Ross because I'll never understand why that crap was a hit. Of her RCA hits it's the one IMO that absolutely positively doesn't hold up. It sounds like a Karaoke track. For anyone else this cut as a first single on a new label would have been a kiss of death.

and why does she seem to have a bond with this style of music... she did a lot of retro songs when she choose what to record. Happy songs like she says.Personally, I don't like that at all and furthermore, I don't think it has a commercial appeal.

**Boogiedown** · 07-11-2017, 02:13 AM

When Diana Ross went to Berry Gordy and told him about her lucrative offer with RCA, I have a feeling the last thing she expected was for Berry to shake her hand , wish her well and show her the door. She was having the most successful point of her career under Motown with both the Chic album and her duet with Lionel Richie so to give all that up so she could do what , record a remake of a sort of silly song from back before she was a Supreme? When Berry heard WHY DO FOOLS he must have thought, "damn Diana, if that's been on your mind all these years, you should've told me, we could've done that one a long time ago!!!"

**Bluebrock** · 07-11-2017, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Boogiedown

When Diana Ross went to Berry Gordy and told him about her lucrative offer with RCA, I have a feeling the last thing she expected was for Berry to shake her hand , wish her well and show her the door. She was having the most successful point of her career under Motown with both the Chic album and her duet with Lionel Richie so to give all that up so she could do what , record a remake of a sort of silly song from back before she was a Supreme? When Berry heard WHY DO FOOLS he must have thought, "damn Diana, if that's been on your mind all these years, you should've told me, we could've done that one a long time ago!!!"

Berry always had the final say on Diana's motown albums. Diana had her say but was often overruled, and that was the other major factor after the main issue - money ,which eventually led to her departure.

**Boogiedown** · 07-11-2017, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Berry always had the final say on Diana's motown albums. Diana had her say but was often overruled, and that was the other major factor after the main issue - money ,which eventually led to her departure.

So you are responding to my post with this because you are suggesting that Diana actually always DID want to record WHY DO FOOLS but Berry always overruled her? Otherwise , sorry I don't see your point

**Albator** · 07-11-2017, 06:26 AM

Are there songs from RCA that are systematically overlooked on topics?
For the moment I think about "Stranger in paradise", for what we hear, a great performance with way to much echo on her voice.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-11-2017, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Berry always had the final say on Diana's motown albums. Diana had her say but was often overruled, and that was the other major factor after the main issue - money ,which eventually led to her departure.

And I think promotion of the albums also, is that true? I seem to recall that Diana was quite disappointed about the stalled sales of BIM and TB.

**Bluebrock** · 07-11-2017, 07:22 AM

[QUOTE=Boogiedown;398247]So you are responding to my post with this because you are suggesting that Diana actually always DID want to record WHY DO FOOLS but Berry always overruled her? Otherwise , sorry I don't see your point

[/QUOTE
I guess my answer is both yes and no. WDFFIL was always a favourite song of Diana's . I would not go as far as saying that Diana always wanted to record it, and neither am i saying that Berry would have overruled her had she wanted to, but she did tell me it was considered for the Black album. Berry wanted one standard on that album, and eventually went with SMILE. I am not aware there were any major arguments when SMILE got the nod. If you still don't see my point then i shall try to clarify further upon request. Have a nice day.

**Bluebrock** · 07-11-2017, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

And I think promotion of the albums also, is that true? I seem to recall that Diana was quite disappointed about the stalled sales of BIM and TB.

For some reason Diana never loved BIM as much as we the fans did. She did not get along with Richard Perry, but Gordy loved the results and hired Perry to do the follow up album even before BIM was released. A few demos were laid down but some of the songs were later given to Syreeta so i believe. She did love The Boss. She always got along with Nick and Val in the studio and Val had nothing but nice things to say about Diana when i met her a few years ago. Although the album did go gold everyone was expecting it to go platinum such was the strength of the songs, production values and vocals, not to mention that stunning album cover.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 07-11-2017, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

For some reason Diana never loved BIM as much as we the fans did. She did not get along with Richard Perry, but Gordy loved the results and hired Perry to do the follow up album even before BIM was released. A few demos were laid down but some of the songs were later given to Syreeta so i believe. She did love The Boss. She always got along with Nick and Val in the studio and Val had nothing but nice things to say about Diana when i met her a few years ago. Although the album did go gold everyone was expecting it to go platinum such was the strength of the songs, production values and vocals, not to mention that stunning album cover.

Hmmm - most interesting about BIM, and thanks. Diana was recording it at the time of the big Rolling Stone cover; I don't recall the lack of simpatico with Perry but of course she would not have mentioned it. I have also heard A&S discuss Diana in glowing terms and for me they were my favorite producers of Ross. I still have my Valerie 'Exposed' lp with Diana's handwritten endorsement of Simpson. At the time I presumed it was just a promo move but maybe they were already friendly.

**Albator** · 07-11-2017, 07:54 AM

"The Boss" isn't even silver in UK, while "BIM" is, both weren't strong seller in Japan and were probably around 50.000.

**RanRan79** · 07-11-2017, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Boogiedown

When Diana Ross went to Berry Gordy and told him about her lucrative offer with RCA, I have a feeling the last thing she expected was for Berry to shake her hand , wish her well and show her the door. She was having the most successful point of her career under Motown with both the Chic album and her duet with Lionel Richie so to give all that up so she could do what , record a remake of a sort of silly song from back before she was a Supreme? When Berry heard WHY DO FOOLS he must have thought, "damn Diana, if that's been on your mind all these years, you should've told me, we could've done that one a long time ago!!!"

Of course she didn't expect that. Nobody expected that! Lol And I have a feeling that Gordy actually expected the very grown Diana to feel like a lost little girl and decide to turn down the RCA money and stay at Motown out of loyalty. Ha!! Both of them ended up with their feelings hurt, personally. But with Diana's exit, and then Marvin's exit a short time later, Gordy's Motown really would cease to have any resemblance to the company he started. I'm not sure he could've afforded to match or surpass RCA's offer, but I think had he sat down with Ross and asked her what the problem was [[money, lack of PR on certain projects, being unable to control her own career) and then put his big boy pants on and given her what she wanted, she would have stayed. And I like to think she would have made better creative decisions at Motown in the 80s than she did at RCA. Her second Motown turn in the 90s yielded some really great stuff.