Mary Wilson solo debut

[Boogiedown]

oh .
but no other "real " ones from back in the actual day. I gotcha.

I could've gone with that Bumps one back then, bass line and all! I don't think Mary would've liked it one bit as a release though. She's been all but eliminated! lol!
Very Walter Gibbons.

Oh oh third play going on fourth: I'M HOOKED!

[Bluebrock]

I really don't know how it did in can I say England without offending anyone? But it also was included in the compilation CD series Motown by the Year - 1980.

It didn't make the top 100. One of the better songs on an otherwise dire debut but Mary was stone cold at the time and it received no airplay beyond the specialist soul shows, and even there it had limited play. I was seemingly one of the few who bought it.

[Bluebrock]

It wasnt really a released single in the UK it was a prromo single which means about 100 copies was pressed and passed out to radio stations but never took of and wasnt released to the
https://www.discogs.com/Mary-Wilson-...elease/4104168

I think you may be right Roberta. My copy was a promo copy that i purchased from a specialist music shop.

[marv2]

It didn't make the top 100. One of the better songs on an otherwise dire debut but Mary was stone cold at the time and it received no airplay beyond the specialist soul shows, and even there it had limited play. I was seemingly one of the few who bought it.

She got a lot of TV exposure over there.

[Roberta75]

She got a lot of TV exposure over there.

And yet all that TV exposure and still Mary Wilsons music has never charted. A bit like you said about Diane going on Oprah and it not helping move product. Oh well its all water under the bridge now.

[RanRan79]

Look. It wasn't even that complicated. Berry and Motown were still not happy that Diana Ross went to RCA and Marvin went to Columbia. They felt the company was losing it's identity. The Temptations Reunion went well for the most part and so they thought a Supremes Reunion might be worthwhile. Mary did not instigate that. Someone else brought the idea to Mr. Gordy.

I didn't think Mary had instigated it. She'd have to be a complete idiot to want back in that bag without Diana by her side. Mary's focus should have been forging her path alone and out of the shadow of the group, not rejoining it. Someone else bringing the idea to Gordy just means that someone else at Motown, besides Gordy, was an f'n idiot.

[RanRan79]

I'm not saying it was a good idea. Or a well thought out one. But 60s nostalgia was hot at this time. The whole Big Chill thing. While Motown was certainly innovative in some ways, they also were big on jumping on a bandwagon. If they could get a few bucks out of it, why not. As we know, many if not most Motown decisions were not based on sentiment or artistry. But just cold hard cash

Well I'm going to say it: It wasn't a good idea, nor was it well thought out. Lol Absolutely worst idea. I get the 60s nostalgia and I get someone wanting to do with the Supremes what had been done with the Tempts. But there's a couple of issues with that. For one, Scherrie in the lineup gives the Supremes a 70s/disco identity. I don't think the public would have given into 60s nostalgia for a disco lineup of Supremes. Not that I'm saying that's the type of music they would have been doing, but that was their identity as a lineup in the 70s, which just doesn't conjure up the feels of the 60s. The other thing is that the Tempts reunion was what it was because of the presence of two people: David Ruffin and Eddie Kendricks, two people who immediately come to mind when the name "Temptations" is uttered. Nobody outside of us diehard Supremes fans and music historians think of Scherrie Payne when we think of Supremes. Also David hadn't performed as a Tempt since 1968, Eddie since 1971. And both left the group when the group was still extremely popular. Of course their reunion was going to be newsworthy.

MSC hadn't even been gone 10 years when this reunion talk started and the last time they were together they were riding on one "hit" that barely made the top 40 pop and couldn't manage to crawl it's way into the top 20 r&b. Nobody cared. And now all of a sudden in 1983 people were supposed to run to stores to pick up the latest Supremes' album? The only way Motown could've capitalized successfully on Dreamgirls and the Tempts reunion with a Supremes reunion is if the label and all parties concerned could've reached an agreement where Diana rejoined Mary and Cindy. Nothing says 60s nostalgia like the 60s Supremes.

Gordy should've been offended by whoever walked into his office one day and said "I have a great idea...". Whomever it was should've been fired on the spot.

[marv2]

Well I'm going to say it: It wasn't a good idea, nor was it well thought out. Lol Absolutely worst idea. I get the 60s nostalgia and I get someone wanting to do with the Supremes what had been done with the Tempts. But there's a couple of issues with that. For one, Scherrie in the lineup gives the Supremes a 70s/disco identity. I don't think the public would have given into 60s nostalgia for a disco lineup of Supremes. Not that I'm saying that's the type of music they would have been doing, but that was their identity as a lineup in the 70s, which just doesn't conjure up the feels of the 60s. The other thing is that the Tempts reunion was what it was because of the presence of two people: David Ruffin and Eddie Kendricks, two people who immediately come to mind when the name "Temptations" is uttered. Nobody outside of us diehard Supremes fans and music historians think of Scherrie Payne when we think of Supremes. Also David hadn't performed as a Tempt since 1968, Eddie since 1971. And both left the group when the group was still extremely popular. Of course their reunion was going to be newsworthy.

MSC hadn't even been gone 10 years when this reunion talk started and the last time they were together they were riding on one "hit" that barely made the top 40 pop and couldn't manage to crawl it's way into the top 20 r&b. Nobody cared. And now all of a sudden in 1983 people were supposed to run to stores to pick up the latest Supremes' album? The only way Motown could've capitalized successfully on Dreamgirls and the Tempts reunion with a Supremes reunion is if the label and all parties concerned could've reached an agreement where Diana rejoined Mary and Cindy. Nothing says 60s nostalgia like the 60s Supremes.

Gordy should've been offended by whoever walked into his office one day and said "I have a great idea...". Whomever it was should've been fired on the spot.

Even if it were Suzanne DePasse? LOL!!!!

[RanRan79]

Couldn't you say the same thing about Hal Davis when they assigned him to Diana Ross in 76, he'd had a couple of dry years then too .

And just as it might be argued that disco wasn't the right sound for Mary , equally would it have been said of Diana pre-LOVE HANGOVER. I don't think anyone at Motown had any intentions of making Diana a club favorite including [[and especially) Diana herself, but by doing so, it was the biggest favor Hal Davis could have awarded her career. It's these disco hits of hers that give her concerts a driving energy even to this day. Hal Davis did the same thing for Thelma Houston giving her such a big disco song that it's provided her a lifetime career of performing .
So why not see if this same fortune could be repeated again with Mary. No one in 1979 knew disco was about to implode, so it was acceptable, even desirable, to include the genre in a project. Mary needed to land somewhere , and disco, a female vocalists' haven, for her remained virgin territory . Diana Ross at this same time was still embracing disco and her resulting work with Chic would garner some of the most successful music of her catalogue.

Diana Ross can sing just about any genre and seem at home. I think that's why it's always been easy for different producers with different types of sounds in mind to approach her to do the singing. She had already tackled a number of different things, so experimenting with her on a disco number like "Love Hangover" might have seemed like a no brainer. By the time of Mary's solo debut she had been a part of the disco music scene for years with the Supremes and it was those ballads on the albums that clearly showed what she was made of. I just think that if anyone at the label really wanted her to succeed they would have given her a project that played to her strengths.

I will say this in a small defense: most the songs IMO aren't good quality, no matter who was singing them. So it's possible- though I doubt it- that with better disco songs maybe- MAYBE- Mary's album wouldn't have been so bad.

[RanRan79]

Even if it were Suzanne DePasse? LOL!!!!

LOL Yes, even Suzanne. If she had a moment that was that dumb, how could she be trusted to make good decisions going forward? She would've been better served suggesting the Lewis Sisters get back together.

[sup_fan]

you hit on one of the key reasons Diana has been so successful. She has always been able to adapt to a wide range of music and not only do it well technically but to also convey the appropriate phrasing and emotion. Looking at the work she did with the Sups - country, soul, pop, broadway, MOR, etc. And those wonderful medley's the girls did like Fats Waller, Millie/Rose/Mame, Always, etc. That's always been part of her universal appeal.

So I don't think it's too shocking that she did well in disco. Love Hangover starts out sultry - right up Di's alley. then goes all dance/crazy. and the story goes that even SHE was uncertain if she could do it. But Hal anticipated that and turned the studio into a disco with lights and strobes. got her in the mood and off she went.

One genre Diana really isn't as strong in is heavy "soul." She certainly does a lovely job on r&b but i'm talking the style more like Aretha. Diana's voice just isn't as right of a fit there.

As for mary, she's an extremely talented performer and singer. I don't think her voice is as versatile as Diana's. Part of it is her range - mary has an amazing contra-alto voice. smokey and misty. But that doesn't always work as well with more pop-style or dance music. Yes mary had been doing disco with the Sups, but IMO the strongest Sup dance tracks during that era were with Scherrie on lead. Not mary. Also it's VERY different to be singing as part of a group doing disco vs singing as the LEAD in disco.

[luke]

I agree with a lot of what you said but Diana often doesn't express the feeling of the song as she smiles and does her schtick through some very sad songs e.g. My World is Empty Without You Babe...Love is here and now you're gone, which I feel has limited her appeal. She is great on songs like Love Hangover, the Boss etc. Mary is great on He's My Man and This Is Why I Believe and You're whats Missing ...though I do feel she is best on ballads/ jazz and some up tempo songs.

[marv2]

I agree with a lot of what you said but Diana often doesn't express the feeling of the song as she smiles and does her schtick through some very sad songs e.g. My World is Empty Without You Babe...Love is here and now you're gone, which I feel has limited her appeal. She is great on songs like Love Hangover, the Boss etc. Mary is great on He's My Man and This Is Why I Believe and You're whats Missing ...though I do feel she is best on ballads/ jazz and some up tempo songs.

Diana Ross has no Soul in her voice and the only way the tracks to Lady Sings the Blues worked to an extent is because he copied Billie Holidays licks. None of those songs had an ounce of originality to them. I prefer Mary Wilson and Jean Terrell especially singing live because they put feeling into their songs. When Mary sing's "I Am Changing" I am right there with her. We she's in a "mellow mood" like this, the atmosphere totally changes:

[marv2]

Also from Mary's solo debut album "Mary Wilson" this duet with Billie Woodruff. This is fine as they both sound great, but the song would have been better slowed down a bit:

[marv2]

Interesting bit of trivia about Mary's debut album. Julia Waters Tillman and Maxine Waters Willard are on background vocals. These women were the background voices on "Someday We'll Be Together". Billy Woodruff, Clydene Jackson and Gloria Scott round out the background singers for the album.

[marv2]

Mary Wilson's "You're The Light That Guides My Way," even if it is sped up, is one of my favorite songs ever. Loving that song doesn't mean I have to go around and say Ross has no "soul" -- most of her songs may be "pop" but there are many soul songs in her oeuvre, and one must be deaf not recognizing that [[or have a different agenda). Pop, soul, who cares, as long as the song goes straight to the heart. Ross can do that, Mary Wilson can do that, Aretha can do that, and as I experienced live two week ago, Gladys Knight can do that. Rather than pitting those great ladies against each other, let's cherish the fact that we can still see and hear them perform live and listen to a great collection of recorded songs.

I love the song too from the first time I heard it in October 1979! I did not bring up Diana Ross. I only responded to a comment I saw. Anyway, I wished they had promoted this album more. I did hear a radio promo spot on a Pittsburgh station back at the time, but not much else.

[Roberta75]

Interesting bit of trivia about Mary's debut album. Julia Waters Tillman and Maxine Waters Willard are on background vocals. These women were the background voices on "Someday We'll Be Together". Billy Woodruff, Clydene Jackson and Gloria Scott round out the background singers for the album.

Thats fascinating. Just fascinating and real interesting. You sure know your background singers dear.

[luke]

Don't start none won't be none!lol. Just talking about stylistic preferences!

[marv2]

Don't start none won't be none!lol. Just talking about stylistic preferences!

Exactly. Sometimes you get people that just don't understand.

[RanRan79]

Everyone is entitled to their preference. No one can dictate what another person hears or feels when listening to any given singer. Diana Ross has soul when she sings in my book. No one can prove me wrong. And if you can't prove me wrong with evidence then your rebuttal must be an opinion, not fact. And that's the beauty of all of us loving music the way we do. We hear what we hear and feel what we feel. Diana, Mary, Jean, they possess gifts from God. I enjoy it all.

[TomatoTom123]

Everyone is entitled to their preference. No one can dictate what another person hears or feels when listening to any given singer. Diana Ross has soul when she sings in my book. No one can prove me wrong. And if you can't prove me wrong with evidence then your rebuttal must be an opinion, not fact. And that's the beauty of all of us loving music the way we do. We hear what we hear and feel what we feel. Diana, Mary, Jean, they possess gifts from God. I enjoy it all.

Yes, I agree with RanRan! [[except the gift from God bit, lol)

Music is so subjective which is what makes it wonderful!!!!

[captainjames]

I for one was glad Mary Wilson finally went solo. It finally revealed who and what Mary Wilson could do. We did not have to wait as long to hear Mary as we did Flo.

[captainjames]

I definitely understood why she remained with the group so long without branching out.

[RanRan79]

I definitely understood why she remained with the group so long without branching out.

I think she needed those extra years out of Diana's shadow to step into her own. But had Gordy made it a point to give Mary and Flo the encouragement and extra training that he gave Diana, IMO there would have been no need for a 70s Supremes, unless Gordy decided to bring in three new girls to carry on while the originals did their solo thing. When Diana left, they should have all left.

One of my favorite 70s Supremes songs is "A Heart Like Mine". Mary is absolutely breath taking. She doesn't have to run up and down the vocal scale. She isn't screeching and screaming. She's not even trying to be all light and airy. It's just a cool, smoky, laid back vocal that oozes soul. I listen to her singing that song and immediately wonder what she would have done with some of the stuff Roberta Flack was doing, like "First Time Ever I Saw Your Face". I like Diana's version of the song very much, but Mary would have killed it. Had Gordy thought to turn her into a Roberta Flack styled artist I think she would have been a great star in the 70s.

All the what ifs drive me crazy.

[marv2]

Mary Wilson singing Roberta Flack type songs would have been especially nice. Great observation.

[captainjames]

All kidding aside he could have done that with Katherine Anderson or Gladys Horton or even Lois Reeves. Those were three ladies who could sing. I never quite understood if it was because they were female and taboo or if Motown just couldn't handle the abundance of talent that came through that door. Berry did hold on to the Supremes for a long time without a hit. Most artists would have been shown the door. I always wondered what would have happened if Mary Wells had stayed with Motown.

[sup_fan]

i agree - I think something like Roberta's work would have been ideal for Mary. And with all of the growth in the "Quiet Storm" type of music in mid 70s, there was a market.

Imagine Barry White producing Mary!

[marv2]

i agree - I think something like Roberta's work would have been ideal for Mary. And with all of the growth in the "Quiet Storm" type of music in mid 70s, there was a market.

Imagine Barry White producing Mary!

Now that would have been awesome. Even a duet of the two.

[RanRan79]

All kidding aside he could have done that with Katherine Anderson or Gladys Horton or even Lois Reeves. Those were three ladies who could sing. I never quite understood if it was because they were female and taboo or if Motown just couldn't handle the abundance of talent that came through that door. Berry did hold on to the Supremes for a long time without a hit. Most artists would have been shown the door. I always wondered what would have happened if Mary Wells had stayed with Motown.

None of those women you mention were members of the all mighty Supremes. Truth be told, as unique as Diana Ross was, Gordy could've ridden down any street in Detroit [[or Chicago, Philly, NYC, DC, LA, etc) and found a Black girl who could sing and easily grab command of the r&b, pop and showtune genres and captivate an audience just as Diana Ross did. Luckily for us he found Diana Ross, but to think if he had never found her that he would never have been able to cultivate a future star of her caliber is insane.

The Supremes as a unit were a wonderful thing. The public loved them, not just her. So in my mind it would have been good business sense to see this cash cow as an eventual three cash cows, instead of putting all of his eggs in the one basket. Gordy and company certainly thought Florence and Mary were good enough to sing leads both on record and live. When did Kat Anderson or Lois Reeves ever get handed a lead vocalist sheet? Didn't think so.

[marv2]

None of those women you mention were members of the all mighty Supremes. Truth be told, as unique as Diana Ross was, Gordy could've ridden down any street in Detroit [[or Chicago, Philly, NYC, DC, LA, etc) and found a Black girl who could sing and easily grab command of the r&b, pop and showtune genres and captivate an audience just as Diana Ross did. Luckily for us he found Diana Ross, but to think if he had never found her that he would never have been able to cultivate a future star of her caliber is insane.

The Supremes as a unit were a wonderful thing. The public loved them, not just her. So in my mind it would have been good business sense to see this cash cow as an eventual three cash cows, instead of putting all of his eggs in the one basket. Gordy and company certainly thought Florence and Mary were good enough to sing leads both on record and live. When did Kat Anderson or Lois Reeves ever get handed a lead vocalist sheet? Didn't think so.

He did just that when he saw Jean Terrell in Miami.

[RanRan79]

All kidding aside he could have done that with Katherine Anderson or Gladys Horton or even Lois Reeves. Those were three ladies who could sing. I never quite understood if it was because they were female and taboo or if Motown just couldn't handle the abundance of talent that came through that door. Berry did hold on to the Supremes for a long time without a hit. Most artists would have been shown the door. I always wondered what would have happened if Mary Wells had stayed with Motown.

Don't forget in the 60s Motown was still an independent, relatively small operation. When you think about it, it's amazing that as many well known and hit making artists were able to be promoted at all during that time. But no, Gordy and company was not going to be able to push everyone. Some folks were going to get lost in the shuffle, both female and male. The company also went with who was hot. Once the Supremes hit, they never really lost their hotness, even with the occasional "flop" during the DRATS years. The Tempts stayed hot. The Tops were hot for a long time before slowing and then picking back up again. For all of the complaints about Martha and the Vandellas getting pushed aside, they didn't lose their hot streak either until late in the 60s. After that first year or so of hits, the Marvelettes were never the hot commodity those other groups I mentioned were.

Gordy held onto the Supremes and the Temptations despite their lack of hits. He knew he had something special in both. Best decision he ever made IMO.

[RanRan79]

i agree - I think something like Roberta's work would have been ideal for Mary. And with all of the growth in the "Quiet Storm" type of music in mid 70s, there was a market.

Imagine Barry White producing Mary!

Exactly! Mary's voice was well suited for that market. And just listen to Gloria Scott's Barry White album. Gloria's voice is a bit higher than Mary's and handles the higher notes better than Mary would've, but I can easily hear Mary singing those same songs. Plus Barry seemed to like working with females whose voices weren't necessarily "rangey" [[like Glodean). Mary and Barry would have been an excellent match.

[RanRan79]

He did just that when he saw Jean Terrell in Miami.

Good point.

[captainjames]

None of those women you mention were members of the all mighty Supremes. Truth be told, as unique as Diana Ross was, Gordy could've ridden down any street in Detroit [[or Chicago, Philly, NYC, DC, LA, etc) and found a Black girl who could sing and easily grab command of the r&b, pop and showtune genres and captivate an audience just as Diana Ross did. Luckily for us he found Diana Ross, but to think if he had never found her that he would never have been able to cultivate a future star of her caliber is insane.

The Supremes as a unit were a wonderful thing. The public loved them, not just her. So in my mind it would have been good business sense to see this cash cow as an eventual three cash cows, instead of putting all of his eggs in the one basket. Gordy and company certainly thought Florence and Mary were good enough to sing leads both on record and live. When did Kat Anderson or Lois Reeves ever get handed a lead vocalist sheet? Didn't think so.

Well, I am not sure we know everything that is in the vault or that we have heard everything that was recorded by them. How lucky we were that Motown found the girls and that Diana could sing just about anything.

[sup_fan]

another reason Berry selected Diana was her incredible work ethic and drive. she was willing to sacrifice just about anything and focus 100% on her goal. As much as I love mary, she's not know for having that level of drive. Even when Diana was 16, she worked harder than pretty much anyone there. and she let essentially nothing obstruct her work and goal. no heavy drinking, no drugs, no getting crazy.

Other artists had more personal issues that "got in the way." of course some of this could have been brought around by Berry's preoccupation with Diana. I think part of why M&TV declined as they did in the late 60s was her problems with drugs. Same with Wanda. Berry just wasn't willing to put up with that crap. if you couldn't stay focused, seems like you were done to him. I've always wondered if Mary's more laidback approach to things was really the cause of the initial difference between her and Berry.

[marv2]

another reason Berry selected Diana was her incredible work ethic and drive. she was willing to sacrifice just about anything and focus 100% on her goal. As much as I love mary, she's not know for having that level of drive. Even when Diana was 16, she worked harder than pretty much anyone there. and she let essentially nothing obstruct her work and goal. no heavy drinking, no drugs, no getting crazy.

Other artists had more personal issues that "got in the way." of course some of this could have been brought around by Berry's preoccupation with Diana. I think part of why M&TV declined as they did in the late 60s was her problems with drugs. Same with Wanda. Berry just wasn't willing to put up with that crap. if you couldn't stay focused, seems like you were done to him. I've always wondered if Mary's more laidback approach to things was really the cause of the initial difference between her and Berry.

I am not trying to start an argument but you see Sup_fan, you would have had to been there or speak to people who were there. All of the Supremes and many other Motown artists were hard workers and had tremendous drive. It was not Diana Ross alone that held those characteristics, it was the PR machine that put that story out to explain why she was getting the majority of the company's focus. She drank, she smoke, she played just like all of the rest of them. She got crazy once with a hat box that contained a dog that she used to beat the shit out of a flight attendant for example. All of them have done things. How do you think Mary Wilson continues to have a viable career after over 55 years if she did not have a strong work ethic and drive. How do you think as a woman she's be able to survive this long in the entertainment business by basically handling her own business without the support of some major corporation?

[luke]

Absolutely agree. They all worked their butts off. Florence got grief for having a bad flu yet Diana collapsed and couldnt do the shows and didn't get grief. The PR machine was in full swing. It's amazing those women could keep the schedule they did. Wanda was stuggling big time long before the Return of the Marvelettes album

[RanRan79]

Well, I am not sure we know everything that is in the vault or that we have heard everything that was recorded by them. How lucky we were that Motown found the girls and that Diana could sing just about anything.

No we haven't heard everything, but I can't imagine that there's a Kat or Lois lead in the vaults that no one has ever heard before and neither woman has bothered to mention in interviews. But I'll concede that we don't know. Even still, Kat and Lois were no Flo and Mary.

Absolutely agree with you on not just Motown's luck but our luck as fans that the Supremes made their home at Motown. Diana's beautiful voice led the group into music history. We're the better for it.

[RanRan79]

another reason Berry selected Diana was her incredible work ethic and drive. she was willing to sacrifice just about anything and focus 100% on her goal. As much as I love mary, she's not know for having that level of drive. Even when Diana was 16, she worked harder than pretty much anyone there. and she let essentially nothing obstruct her work and goal. no heavy drinking, no drugs, no getting crazy.

Other artists had more personal issues that "got in the way." of course some of this could have been brought around by Berry's preoccupation with Diana. I think part of why M&TV declined as they did in the late 60s was her problems with drugs. Same with Wanda. Berry just wasn't willing to put up with that crap. if you couldn't stay focused, seems like you were done to him. I've always wondered if Mary's more laidback approach to things was really the cause of the initial difference between her and Berry.

I think her work ethic and drive was secondary to what Gordy and company heard in Diana's voice. Without the golden voice, she could've lived at Hitsville and still not gotten the attention and push that she eventually received.

I think you're right about the personal issues. For all of Gordy's "Motown family" atmosphere, he mostly only cared about one thing: the almighty dollar. And particularly when you're a performer, one's "personal issues" can affect the bottom line and Gordy didn't seem to have much- if any- patience with that. From my perspective I think he exacerbated Florence's issues and because of that, I often see him as the villain in that part of the story. But where some of the others are concerned, from a business standpoint, I get where Gordy was coming from.

[RanRan79]

I am not trying to start an argument but you see Sup_fan, you would have had to been there or speak to people who were there. All of the Supremes and many other Motown artists were hard workers and had tremendous drive. It was not Diana Ross alone that held those characteristics, it was the PR machine that put that story out to explain why she was getting the majority of the company's focus. She drank, she smoke, she played just like all of the rest of them. She got crazy once with a hat box that contained a dog that she used to beat the shit out of a flight attendant for example. All of them have done things. How do you think Mary Wilson continues to have a viable career after over 55 years if she did not have a strong work ethic and drive. How do you think as a woman she's be able to survive this long in the entertainment business by basically handling her own business without the support of some major corporation?

Marv I'll be the first to defend Flo and Mary being hard workers. There is no way in hell that the Supremes could've kept going through those flop years if Diana was the only one serious about the craft. Those girls were busy because all three were serious about the business of singing and performing, which I think may also explain why Gordy kept them around through so many flops. Their collective ethic was on point.

However, one of the things that's always been clear to me from the many books I've read and interviews I've watched is that whether or not everyone liked her, they all agreed on one thing: that chick worked her butt off. And lets be real: she had to. Once the Supremes machine was set into motion and her voice became the identifiable voice of the group, all of the pressure was on her. Diana had self esteem issues and she seems to have used her singing and performing abilities to give folks a reason to say she was special. She had daddy issues, so she was willing to do whatever was necessary to please Gordy, who had this father/lover hold on her. She couldn't afford to slack off. She threw herself into her work, which is something I don't think Flo or Mary would have ever done. Mary was too much of a party girl. She was going to take time to swing from the chandelier. LOL Florence was too much of a family girl. I don't think she would have ever been happy having to do as much as Diana did. Flo needed a healthy balance between work and family. What did Diana have other than work? And that's not to say that she didn't have a life. We know she partied. We know she had a love life [[even outside of Gordy). But what was more important to Diana Ross than singing and performing? I say nothing and nobody [[other than her family and maybe Gordy), and that puts her in a different head space from Mary and Flo as it relates to the Supremes. All three worked hard, but one clearly was doing much more extra credit. LOL

[RanRan79]

Absolutely agree. They all worked their butts off. Florence got grief for having a bad flu yet Diana collapsed and couldnt do the shows and didn't get grief. The PR machine was in full swing. It's amazing those women could keep the schedule they did. Wanda was stuggling big time long before the Return of the Marvelettes album

Actually, according to Florence, she had to tear Gordy a new one after Diana's collapse because he was still trying to figure out a way to get her back onstage when she was clearly in no condition to do so. As I said previously, Gordy was all about the money. He had to fly out and see Diana personally in order to get the picture that the girl was sick. I imagine that the very idea of Diana Ross not pushing herself to continue would have been enough to signal to the people around her that something was off. With Florence Gordy didn't see her as important as Diana, he also believed that her physical ailments were really a mental thing [[which actually could've been the case sometimes as depression and anxiety can cause physical symptoms), but whatever the case he saw it as costing him money and Gordy didn't play that. One has to wonder if Diana had continued to have these episodes would Gordy have continued to support her or would he eventually move on to the next new thing?

[captainjames]

Marv I'll be the first to defend Flo and Mary being hard workers. There is no way in hell that the Supremes could've kept going through those flop years if Diana was the only one serious about the craft. Those girls were busy because all three were serious about the business of singing and performing, which I think may also explain why Gordy kept them around through so many flops. Their collective ethic was on point.

However, one of the things that's always been clear to me from the many books I've read and interviews I've watched is that whether or not everyone liked her, they all agreed on one thing: that chick worked her butt off. And lets be real: she had to. Once the Supremes machine was set into motion and her voice became the identifiable voice of the group, all of the pressure was on her. Diana had self esteem issues and she seems to have used her singing and performing abilities to give folks a reason to say she was special. She had daddy issues, so she was willing to do whatever was necessary to please Gordy, who had this father/lover hold on her. She couldn't afford to slack off. She threw herself into her work, which is something I don't think Flo or Mary would have ever done. Mary was too much of a party girl. She was going to take time to swing from the chandelier. LOL Florence was too much of a family girl. I don't think she would have ever been happy having to do as much as Diana did. Flo needed a healthy balance between work and family. What did Diana have other than work? And that's not to say that she didn't have a life. We know she partied. We know she had a love life [[even outside of Gordy). But what was more important to Diana Ross than singing and performing? I say nothing and nobody [[other than her family and maybe Gordy), and that puts her in a different head space from Mary and Flo as it relates to the Supremes. All three worked hard, but one clearly was doing much more extra credit. LOL

You made the best summary to what was going on that I have heard in a long time. You just don't know how close you came to the mark.

[Bluebrock]

You made the best summary to what was going on that I have heard in a long time. You just don't know how close you came to the mark.

I have done one hell of a lot of research recently and ranran79 appears to have hit the nail firmly on the head with most of these observations. I shall leave it at that until a certain someone comes back with his usual bias towards a certain Supreme and his usual vitriol against another Supreme and then i shall comment further.

[imakicola]

Very helpful. Thanks Tomato. I'm guessing USA refers to territories as well but not sure. Will research. America may refer to Canada , USA and Mexico and South America as well and Centeal America!

When referring to those countries, we say The Americas. Just "America" is the United States of America. At least where I come from in Canada.

[marv2]

When referring to those countries, we say The Americas. Just "America" is the United States of America. At least where I come from in Canada.

I also have notice that in Canada they use the term "North America" much more than in the United States.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I love the song too from the first time I heard it in October 1979! I did not bring up Diana Ross. I only responded to a comment I saw. Anyway, I wished they had promoted this album more. I did hear a radio promo spot on a Pittsburgh station back at the time, but not much else.

Red Hot made the top 10 playlist for WAMO in Pittsburgh, so I heard it played a number of times. By 1979, though, disco music was falling out of favor. I only found one copy of the album that I bought in Oakland by the campus of the University of Pittsburgh, where i was going to school.

[sup_fan]

totally appreciate your opinion and I wasn't trying to imply that others were lazy. what I was talking about was what's been outlined in a variety of books about how hard Diana worked. Even berry has often discussed how much she was willing to sacrifice. Marvin talks about how Diana would out rehearse anyone. Mary even mentions that Diana would be laser focused on her elements of a show or performance until they were as close to possible as she could make them

So my point is that Diana was almost obsessive about this and very few people would be. especially people in the late teens and early 20s.

[RanRan79]

totally appreciate your opinion and I wasn't trying to imply that others were lazy. what I was talking about was what's been outlined in a variety of books about how hard Diana worked. Even berry has often discussed how much she was willing to sacrifice. Marvin talks about how Diana would out rehearse anyone. Mary even mentions that Diana would be laser focused on her elements of a show or performance until they were as close to possible as she could make them

So my point is that Diana was almost obsessive about this and very few people would be. especially people in the late teens and early 20s.

Perfect word, "obsessive". That's what she was. I don't think neither Flo nor Mary could've been described that way, hard workers though they were.

[marv2]

Perfect word, "obsessive". That's what she was. I don't think neither Flo nor Mary could've been described that way, hard workers though they were.

Yep just image how they had to learn all of the background lyrics and harmonies to the songs. Then they had to learn all of the individual choreography specific to each song, combine them with the background parts and do them in synch and with as much precision as possible for all of those shows and concert appearances!

[marv2]

totally appreciate your opinion and I wasn't trying to imply that others were lazy. what I was talking about was what's been outlined in a variety of books about how hard Diana worked. Even berry has often discussed how much she was willing to sacrifice. Marvin talks about how Diana would out rehearse anyone. Mary even mentions that Diana would be laser focused on her elements of a show or performance until they were as close to possible as she could make them

So my point is that Diana was almost obsessive about this and very few people would be. especially people in the late teens and early 20s.

Let's be accurate here. There was not much rehearsal Diana had to do herself. All she was responsible for was standing in front of the mic and not forgetting the words to the songs. She, herself went over Cholly Atkins' head to Mr. Gordy and complained that she did not want to have to learn all those steps, the choreography. She said she'd make up her own! Go look at any of those old video clips. It is very rare that Diana Ross is doing the choreography while singing. Now if she had to rehearse harder, that tells me that she needed it! She needed extra work when it came to her appearance and manners too, which how she ended up at the Robert Powers School in Detroit!