The temptations and supremes: On broadway and tcb

[biggestfourtops fan]

I think some honesty is needed about these two. They are completely useless. Nothing Motown about them. Unsoulful and completely rushed. Diana doesn't help any especially on RESPECT on TCB. My God, Motown neglects the four tops and others in these years for projects like this? Please.

[biggestfourtops fan]

The Together album isn't too good either with the exception of THE WEIGHT and WHY MUST WE FALL IN LOVE. Other than that it's just useless covers with no soul sound. Someone doesn't know how to run a business.

[blackguy69]

It sounds like you're a little miffed that the tops didn't get their dues. Rightly so. I wouldn't call TCB useless since it achieved what it was supposed to do. It showcased Motown's biggest groups. The special was highly rated and the soundtrack went to #1.

[RanRan79]

That "honesty" you refer to is called an opinion. Many others would disagree with you. The specials were a success [[particularly TCB) and many fans enjoy them [[especially TCB) and would like to see the specials released. Should Motown have done more with groups like the Tops and Martha and the Vandellas? Absolutely. Both groups were fantastic in their own rights and it's sad that we don't have as much on them as we do the Supremes and Temptations. But let's not forget that we the fans- past and present- approach these things with a fan's eye and ear, while the folks at Motown- past and present- approach these things like a business, and there were no two acts at Motown at that time that were bigger than the Supremes and Temptations. IMO even if Motown signed off on it, NBC [[or any other network) would not have been remotely interested in the Four Tops and Martha and the Vandellas TCB'ing or anything else for a solid hour.

[kenneth]

And of course one of the main reasons was that these specials acted as a springboard to Diana Ross' solo career. I don't remember much about On Broadway [[though I have on order the unauthorized soundtrack) but as I recall from the album art that Diane was featured much more in the skits than were the Supremes. I'm sure this was one of the ways Gordy devised to determine if she could stand on her own and to make her more well known to the general TV viewing audience.

I also think that after having his acts featured at the Copa and on shows like Ed Sullivan, this was the next step towards the featured acts becoming household names to mainstream [[white, older demographic) America.

[jobeterob]

Digressing slightly, I believe that her Charlie Chaplin skit in her first solo special, specifically attracted her to some movie director because he thought it was so good.

Ran Ran's post is very good. Us long time fans would like to have seen more done with the lesser known and less successful acts and background singers - but Ran Ran is right; you couldn't sell that product and that was how Berry was successful.

[marv2]

I love the Four Tops and Martha & the Vandellas.......Hey Martha!LOL

[Bluebrock]

I think some honesty is needed about these two. They are completely useless. Nothing Motown about them. Unsoulful and completely rushed. Diana doesn't help any especially on RESPECT on TCB. My God, Motown neglects the four tops and others in these years for projects like this? Please.

I have to at least partially agree with you. Whilst i am a huge fan of both groups i never really enjoyed much of their work together either on record or on tv. The albums were indeed rushed with very little thought put into the choice of material. Had these albums been thought out better they could have become minor classics, but they made money for motown and that was the objective of the exercise along with paving the way for Diana's solo career. I also agree that the Four Tops were woefully overlooked during this period.

[Circa 1824]

I LOVED TCB, both the show and soundtrack.
My favorite line from On Broadways is Cindy's "See my agent. He handles me for compliments."

[kenneth]

I still love the initial "Join" album. I think it had the sound of an instant classic. Many of the songs sounded like standards even if they were fairly recent [[such as "This Girl's in Love With You"). I am guessing this was a Gil Askey arrangement? He was brilliant at that sort of material. I still think it's a great, great album.

I agree though that the second studio LP was far less interesting and seemed done by the numbers, so to speak.

[mysterysinger]

How good it would have been to see those Four Tops in a sketch show showing off a comedy side. Their style and rich harmonies would have been great for a musical special too but I would agree about marketability or lack of maybe. Whilst the Ross, Supremes and Temptations stuff wasn't my favourite necessarily [[some great moments mind you), I think Motown should receive credit for trying out something different and yes I think it was successful too. Sad to say [[my opinion only) that I think it was a lot better than The Supremes & Four Tops pairing that came later - sorry if that offends anyone.

[jobeterob]

Join outsold TCB by quite a bit - because it was the best of the best and it doesn't have the weaknesses of live albums.

Wasn't the subsequent albums just the leftovers that didn't make the initial cut?

By the time the Supremes & 4 Tops teamed up, both groups were in decline and weren't attracting much attention. In 1968, when the Supremes and Temptations teamed up, they were both hugely successful as was Motown - after the special they ended up with half of Billboards Top 10 singles.

[marv2]

Join outsold TCB by quite a bit - because it was the best of the best and it doesn't have the weaknesses of live albums.

Wasn't the subsequent albums just the leftovers that didn't make the initial cut?

By the time the Supremes & 4 Tops teamed up, both groups were in decline and weren't attracting much attention. In 1968, when the Supremes and Temptations teamed up, they were both hugely successful as was Motown - after the special they ended up with half of Billboards Top 10 singles.

No they weren't. They were not in decline. The Four Tops and Supremes were still top acts in 1970. Both had substantial hits separately and together. "Stoned Love", "Still Waters" and "River Deep, Mountain High" [[together of course.)

[marv2]

How good it would have been to see those Four Tops in a sketch show showing off a comedy side. Their style and rich harmonies would have been great for a musical special too but I would agree about marketability or lack of maybe. Whilst the Ross, Supremes and Temptations stuff wasn't my favourite necessarily [[some great moments mind you), I think Motown should receive credit for trying out something different and yes I think it was successful too. Sad to say [[my opinion only) that I think it was a lot better than The Supremes & Four Tops pairing that came later - sorry if that offends anyone.

The Four Tops would have been excellent doing skit comedy. Remember their TV commercials? The polar bears? LOL! Levi was great as the voice of the man eating plant in "Little Shop of Horrors". If you've ever seen them in concert, you know how funny they were with their stage banter. If they had been promoted as strongly as the Supremes and the Temptations were there would not have been any concern for their marketability. The Tops were huge in the U.K.!

[jobeterob]

No they weren't. They were not in decline. The Four Tops and Supremes were still top acts in 1970. Both had substantial hits separately and together. "Stoned Love", "Still Waters" and "River Deep, Mountain High" [[together of course.)

They were in decline. You just can't cope with the thought 50 years later. After this time, they had virtually no hits - especially your Supremes. That is called in decline.

It's the kind of thing about Mary Wilson having no hits; you don't like it but that's what happened.

Your Diane became a STAR STAR STAR. Your Mary became an afterthought or footnote to Diane's STARDOM. Mary copes with it but it's hard for you.

[Albator]

The music is typical of the TV specials of those days.
It's fun to watch, Diana wears stunning gowns, the sets are great but it's just entertaining and not musically engaging.

[marv2]

They were in decline. You just can't cope with the thought 50 years later. After this time, they had virtually no hits - especially your Supremes. That is called in decline.

It's the kind of thing about Mary Wilson having no hits; you don't like it but that's what happened.

Your Diane became a STAR STAR STAR. Your Mary became an afterthought or footnote to Diane's STARDOM. Mary copes with it but it's hard for you.

They were not in decline. You must have been either high or in another World at the time. They were established acts that were still scoring hits all through 1970! You can throw up Mary and Diane as camouflage, but you cannot change the fact that the Supremes and Four Tops were still two of the top groups in the World.

[BayouMotownMan]

They were in decline. You just can't cope with the thought 50 years later. After this time, they had virtually no hits - especially your Supremes. That is called in decline.

It's the kind of thing about Mary Wilson having no hits; you don't like it but that's what happened.

Your Diane became a STAR STAR STAR. Your Mary became an afterthought or footnote to Diane's STARDOM. Mary copes with it but it's hard for you.

Now Jobete don't make me agree with Marv. LOL. In truth, in 1970, both the Supremes and Four Tops had seen better days but the Supremes with Jean made an impressive comeback while putting Cindy and Mary more in the spotlight. The Tops on the other hand had been cold as ice for years until Frank Wilson produced the brilliant Still Waters Run Deep lp which became one of the biggest selling Motown lps of 1970. Were the groups "hot." Yes, but not like they used to be. Did this warrant a duet lp? No. A tv special? No. In fact the duet lps cut into the album sales of both groups

[marv2]

The music is typical of the TV specials of those days.
It's fun to watch, Diana wears stunning gowns, the sets are great but it's just entertaining and not musically engaging.

Exactly! I was kid at the time and enjoy those specials a lot.
I can barely watch them today and get excited because production values have changed greatly since the late sixties.

[marv2]

Now Jobete don't make me agree with Marv. LOL. In truth, in 1970, both the Supremes and Four Tops had seen better days but the Supremes with Jean made an impressive comeback while putting Cindy and Mary more in the spotlight. The Tops on the other hand had been cold as ice for years until Frank Wilson produced the brilliant Still Waters Run Deep lp which became one of the biggest selling Motown lps of 1970. Were the groups "hot." Yes, but not like they used to be. Did this warrant a duet lp? No. A tv special? No. In fact the duet lps cut into the album sales of both groups

What's wrong with agreeing with the truth? LOL!

[BayouMotownMan]

Because you have never known the truth

[marv2]

Because you have never known the truth

I am the truth!

[BayouMotownMan]

Only in your convoluted mind Marv. Many Supremes members have had to address your warped rants. You are not a fan. You are a fan-atic. It's a shame because you have extensive photos and videos and I know there are more books planned on the Supremes and other Motown acts, but nobody dares touch you because your self-induced poor reputation.

[kenneth]

I kind of hate to step into this fray, but in the hopes of soothing some ruffled feathers...

I think it's fair to say that in 1970 there were high hopes for both groups. Remember that "Up the Ladder" outsold and outplaced "Reach Out and Touch", although the latter eventually became a kind of classic anthem for world peace and was sung at many events such as Live Aid. Although the next 2 albums by the Supremes [["New Ways") and 4 Tops album [["Changing Times"?) did pretty well in terms of chart placement of singles, I think after that the groups did start to decline. I think this was validated by the extremely poor showing of the "Dynamite!" album which didn't even have any singles released from it.

I will say though that the Hip-O set of the Supremes and Tops duet is one of my favorite of their packages and even the previously unreleased material is all top notch. I think it was just by the time of those recordings, both groups had kind of run their course and needed a shot in the arm. Both got it, ultimately, with Scherrie Payne singing lead and with the Tops' contract with ABC/Dunhill.

Regardless, neither group was ever bereft of much great talent.

[RanRan79]

Ah, another thread hits the dirt. I'm beginning to suspect that this crew isn't just refusing to play nice, you actually are unable to do it.

Back to the topic...from my point of view the Supremes and the Temptations were logical choices to be pushed this way because the two groups were so charismatic and the personalities of the individual members were so engaging. Likewise, the Four Tops had a similar thing going on. They really were a group of funny guys and I think they would have handled a television special very well, either alone or paired with another group, namely the Supremes.

No disrespect to Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, but I don't get that same vibe from them, particularly Martha [[during that time). I could imagine people enjoying an hour of Martha and the girls singing, but I don't know if anyone would have been entertained by their leap into comedy and skits.

I think Gladys and the Pips could have also been a natural choice. So would Stevie Wonder.

[honest man]

IT WAS PERFECT AS IT WAS ,Why do fools try to change what has happened ,pathetic waste of everybodys time; the tv view ratings and records sales especially TCB speak for themselves God give me strength these threads are getting so..............................tedious.

[honest man]

By the way watch the Smokey Robinson special from a few years later with The New Supremes etc such a boring effort and no spark whatsoever but i appreciate it so much as it was Motown and i love all things Motown except Mary Wilson's Dreamgirl trash rag.

[RanRan79]

I think a question many folks here should ask themselves is why do they take all these different Motown opinions so personally. You'll be a much happier group of people if you didn't take other people's opinions about Motown so dang personal. Some of y'all act like somebody said something about yo mama. Get a grip.

[marv2]

Ah, another thread hits the dirt. I'm beginning to suspect that this crew isn't just refusing to play nice, you actually are unable to do it.

Back to the topic...from my point of view the Supremes and the Temptations were logical choices to be pushed this way because the two groups were so charismatic and the personalities of the individual members were so engaging. Likewise, the Four Tops had a similar thing going on. They really were a group of funny guys and I think they would have handled a television special very well, either alone or paired with another group, namely the Supremes.

No disrespect to Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, but I don't get that same vibe from them, particularly Martha [[during that time). I could imagine people enjoying an hour of Martha and the girls singing, but I don't know if anyone would have been entertained by their leap into comedy and skits.

I think Gladys and the Pips could have also been a natural choice. So would Stevie Wonder.

Do you remember Gladys Knight & the Pips summer replacement show in 1975? I thought it was great.

[BayouMotownMan]

Nobody else did, it didn't get picked up. Neither did the Jacksons or Marilyn & Billy. It's hard to find the "spark" in an entertainer that makes mainstream America want to tune in and hear you sing and clown every week. Cher has it. Ross had it. Tony Orlando came close.

[BayouMotownMan]

Also keep in mind, going into the 1980s, the variety show was dead. Marie Osmond, Susan Anton, Pink Lady and Jeff all had dismally bad shows. Even Dolly Parton couldn't revive it genre

[BayouMotownMan]

I loved TCB, even though it was a little glossy. Loved the orchestra and plexiglass stage. Diana was in her element during I Hear A Symphony and The Impossible Dream.

My only complaint was Diana's "hiccup." She did it after virtually every line of You Keep Me Hangin' On. What cute at first [[Love Is Here) became annoying.

[jobucats]

I loved TCB, even though it was a little glossy. Loved the orchestra and plexiglass stage. Diana was in her element during I Hear A Symphony and The Impossible Dream.

My only complaint was Diana's "hiccup." She did it after virtually every line of You Keep Me Hangin' On. What cute at first [[Love Is Here) became annoying.

Yes, her "hiccup" phase really annoyed me. I love me some Diana, however, that constant sound makes listening to "Talk of the Town" unbearable to me. I wonder, artistically, why she incorporated that sound effect for a period of time. Was it maybe a temporary side effect as a result of stress? It's reminicient of some Pentecostal preachers [[no disrespect intended) who often, by accident, realize that their incorrect breathing patterns resulting in the "heh" sound actually are good to accentuate their preaching.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually Jobu, I was watching an old Jayne Mansfield movie and she hiccuped just like that. I immediately thought "that's where Ross got this." Knowing she wasn't the best vocalist and didn't have the curves Mary and Cindy had, to compete she adopted that little kittenish squeak. The only probably is that she used it too much. After the hiccup came the squeel, as in Funky Broadway and NMWSYA. That got old fast too. Going into her solo career she dumped both

[marv2]

The Together album isn't too good either with the exception of THE WEIGHT and WHY MUST WE FALL IN LOVE. Other than that it's just useless covers with no soul sound. Someone doesn't know how to run a business.

"Why Must We Fall in Love" was a good record.

[biggestfourtops fan]

They should've done real soul stompers like MOTHER DEAR, NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES, GIRL WHY YOU WANNA MAKE ME BLUE, DON'T LOOK BACK, THE GIRL'S ALRIGHT WITH ME, ETC.

[mowsville]

The 4 Tops were HUGE here in the U.K...all of their releases from "Reach Out" top twenty or top ten up to 72ish and The Supremes with the exception of "Everybody's Got The Right To Love" [[which did not chart at all) enjoyed a good few years to 73ish of top ten hits...we adored them all...and still do..the amount of venues that STILL have Motown nights over here is astronomical...the youngsters are still listening to it...we have programmes about it ....and The Four Tops and Supremes are still the U.Ks favourites..long live our love of all things Motown.

[blackguy69]

I think a question many folks here should ask themselves is why do they take all these different Motown opinions so personally. You'll be a much happier group of people if you didn't take other people's opinions about Motown so dang personal. Some of y'all act like somebody said something about yo mama. Get a grip.

I never understood it myself. But as you can see its never going to stop. I do find it funny as those who are quick to call out Marv [[and yes some of his comments are too fanatic, ) don't do the same when others post some of the same crap.

[kenneth]

The 4 Tops were HUGE here in the U.K...all of their releases from "Reach Out" top twenty or top ten up to 72ish and The Supremes with the exception of "Everybody's Got The Right To Love" [[which did not chart at all) enjoyed a good few years to 73ish of top ten hits...we adored them all...and still do..the amount of venues that STILL have Motown nights over here is astronomical...the youngsters are still listening to it...we have programmes about it ....and The Four Tops and Supremes are still the U.Ks favourites..long live our love of all things Motown.

Were the Tops more popular than the Temps in the UK? That's interesting. I'd say here in the US, the Temps were always more popular. I think they evolved more, especially with Whitfield's influence.

[bradsupremes]

I love TCB. GIT...not so much. The whole Broadway concept ruined GIT. The songs, the skits, the awful set, etc. It's so dated whereas TCB holds up. It's clear GIT was used as a showcase for Diana's talent at the expense of both groups; however Motown should have stuck to the TCB concept and built it around their duet LPs. It would have been a perfect showcase to see the groups perform "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "I'll Try Something New" since we have no footage of them doing it together. They could have done "The Weight." A performance could have helped bump the song up the charts. GIT was a missed opportunity.

[captainjames]

Love the Tops and Martha and the Vandellas. If I were in charge I would have put The Four Tops with The Velvelettes. They just seem to me they would have made a better team in the studio.

TCB was an outstanding move forward by putting these two groups on TV for the first time in a special. A very smart move.

GIT I sort of remember a Leading Lady melody by Diana but didn't she sing Somewhere or The Impossible Dream on TCB by herself. Anyway, 1968 was a movement in Black America and seeing these two groups on TCB during this time made me proud.

[TheMotownManiac]

Initially, join did outsell TCB by quite a bit, however, at the end of the day, TCB far out sold Joinby remaining on the chart much longer at a much higher positions along the way.

I believe all or almost all of that together album was recorded after Join was released. I've always felt that Mary should've been given the lead on the my guy my girl medley.

You are correct but both the Supremes and the four tops or in decline when their album came out even though they each had a big record or two…… But hardly humongous smashes. The tops had one hit single and one hit album after HDH left… The Supremes had two wonderful singles, but neither one was a gigantic success nor any of their albums which continued to sell less and less and bless their hearts, because they tried so hard, but it was just too many changes for a group. I think that Jean Terrel could have had a very very very successful solo career like Nancy Wilson, had she had direction and being willing to follow the direction because her voice was great but she needed a lot of work to become a star. I do believe she had the goods to do it and it's a shame that when she got her big break, she was mired in the group politics of the Supremes and the giant shadow of Diana Ross. How she must've hated being asked about Ross all the time!

Also, it should be noted, that Diana Ross's career was in decline also. Even with a huge number one hit, she wasn't as big in 1970 or 71 as she was in 1968 and 69 ..... her solo albums didn't sell as well as the Supremes in the 60s… And comparing who had the first hit record for the biggest hit record between the Supremes and Diana Ross so silly to me because neither one was a litmus test as to who was doing great… They both were doing just better than OK. The difference was that Diana's career was going up, while the Supremes career was going down. Supremes were great but they could not overcome the loss of 2/3 of the original group in less than three years it's a simple as that. I don't think any group could – and we are talking about losing the lead singer of the group of every one of their heads and 50 years later is now an international treasure and cultural icon. I really wish Jean Terrel had given her solo act a real chance plus had been much easier to work with. We have missed out on a lot by not having a succession of Jean Terrel albums.



given

Join outsold TCB by quite a bit - because it was the best of the best and it doesn't have the weaknesses of live albums.

Wasn't the subsequent albums just the leftovers that didn't make the initial cut?

By the time the Supremes & 4 Tops teamed up, both groups were in decline and weren't attracting much attention. In 1968, when the Supremes and Temptations teamed up, they were both hugely successful as was Motown - after the special they ended up with half of Billboards Top 10 singles.

[Bluebrock]

I didn't care for the Supremes/Temptations albums, but i cared even less for the Supremes/Four Tops albums. They sounded rushed and had very few memorable moments. Levi and Jean should have cooked up a storm , but even the big hit "river deep" was a very poor imitation of Ike and Tina's barnstorming version.
We all have our individual opinions but with the exception of the first album these albums sold very poorly, and the poor quality material had as much to do with it as any apparent decline in either groups fortunes. For the record i think both groups were past their record selling peak but both still had much to offer and carried on regardless.

[MOTOWNLYNDA]

I LOVE TCB, GIT, THE SMOKEY ROBINSON SHOW, DIANA! '71 and
GOIN' BACK TO INDIANA. I guess being ten years old when TCB first came out I was mesmerized by the fact that I could see my favorite groups on TV for a whole hour, not for a few minutes. I also wished that MARTHA REEVES & THE VANDELLAS and
THE MARVELETTES could have done THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE as did the other MOTOWN SUPERSTARS.

[johnny_raven]

Sad to say [[my opinion only) that I think it was a lot better than The Supremes & Four Tops pairing that came later - sorry if that offends anyone.

Why should that offend anyone? It's your opinion. I agree with you somewhat, but the Sups and Tops had some interesting tracks. They managed to get a #10 hit with River Deep-Mountain High. That's higher than Tina Turner ... pun intended

[honest man]

I didn't care for the Supremes/Temptations albums, but i cared even less for the Supremes/Four Tops albums. They sounded rushed and had very few memorable moments. Levi and Jean should have cooked up a storm , but even the big hit "river deep" was a very poor imitation of Ike and Tina's barnstorming version.
We all have our individual opinions but with the exception of the first album these albums sold very poorly, and the poor quality material had as much to do with it as any apparent decline in either groups fortunes. For the record i think both groups were past their record selling peak but both still had much to offer and carried on regardless.

Myself thinks River Deep was the worst track from M7 era although i love the Supremes-4 tops pairings and tend to play these more than DRATS-Tempts albums, M7 Together we can make....-For your love-Taste of honey etc are on par with Why must ...- i second that emotion-i'll try something new i reckon all these duets albums where a success Audio wise for me,i love them all ,im going to pull my M7 complete duets out right now,.Bluebrock good to see you back here cheers.

[Bluebrock]

The 4 Tops were HUGE here in the U.K...all of their releases from "Reach Out" top twenty or top ten up to 72ish and The Supremes with the exception of "Everybody's Got The Right To Love" [[which did not chart at all) enjoyed a good few years to 73ish of top ten hits...we adored them all...and still do..the amount of venues that STILL have Motown nights over here is astronomical...the youngsters are still listening to it...we have programmes about it ....and The Four Tops and Supremes are still the U.Ks favourites..long live our love of all things Motown.

~"everybody's got the right to love" got to around no.52 in the UK chart but at the time the bbc was only publishing a top 50. Similarly "your wonderful sweet sweet love" and "he's my man" got into the 50's as did another Tops duet but i cannot currently recall which song. The only 70's Supremes songs not to get into the top 100 were "touch", The Jimmy Webb singles and "early morning love". All the others made the bottom end of the chart including their final UK single "love i never knew you could feel so good".

[Bluebrock]

Myself thinks River Deep was the worst track from M7 era although i love the Supremes-4 tops pairings and tend to play these more than DRATS-Tempts albums, M7 Together we can make....-For your love-Taste of honey etc are on par with Why must ...- i second that emotion-i'll try something new i reckon all these duets albums where a success Audio wise for me,i love them all ,im going to pull my M7 complete duets out right now,.Bluebrock good to see you back here cheers.

Thank you honest man. It is good to be back. I also think "river deep" was probably the worst record from a creative point of view, but then again Ike and Tina's version is one of my all time favourite tunes. I think it went top 3 here in the UK but i know it flopped in the USA.

[mysterysinger]

Thank you honest man. It is good to be back. I also think "river deep" was probably the worst record from a creative point of view, but then again Ike and Tina's version is one of my all time favourite tunes. I think it went top 3 here in the UK but i know it flopped in the USA.

Have to agree about the S&FT version of "River Deep" even though I did buy the single at the time, I quickly tired of it, plus nothing can touch the Phil Spector version by I&TT.

[RanRan79]

Do you remember Gladys Knight & the Pips summer replacement show in 1975? I thought it was great.

I know they had one but that was a few years before I was born.