Jean Terrell and Motown

[franjoy56]

My four favorite Jean performances with the Supremes were the smokey robinson show, ed Sullivan show, The tom jones show and the flip Wilson show 1971 Its time to break down/stone love medley and ill add in the andy Williams show summer 1970.

[marv2]

My four favorite Jean performances with the Supremes were the smokey robinson show, ed Sullivan show, The tom jones show and the flip Wilson show 1971 Its time to break down/stone love medley and ill add in the andy Williams show summer 1970.

I love those too and will add The Bob Hope Special from April 1973. She was perfection!

[marv2]

When Jean left The Supremes,it was said,that Lynda was gonna co-lead with Mary,and Cindy was coming back to the group,but things couldn't be worked out,so Lynda left also,and Scherrie Payne join The Supremes,and the ladies kept on moving,yes Jean and Lynda left,but The Supremes were not finish,Mary was right,by staying with Motown,because had they left Motown,Jean was still gonna leave The Supremes anyway,Mary was loyal to The Supremes and Motown,but Jean was not loyal to anyone,Lynda's probation was almost up,again things,couldn't be worked out,i'm happy things worked out the way they did,i love all The Supremes p.s Susaye Greene was Amazing.

I am so glad you mentioned Lynda's probation. Several have argued with me here that she was never on probation and began as a full fledged member of the group.

[BayouMotownMan]

When Jean left The Supremes,it was said,that Lynda was gonna co-lead with Mary,and Cindy was coming back to the group,but things couldn't be worked out,so Lynda left also,and Scherrie Payne join The Supremes,and the ladies kept on moving,yes Jean and Lynda left,but The Supremes were not finish,Mary was right,by staying with Motown,because had they left Motown,Jean was still gonna leave The Supremes anyway,Mary was loyal to The Supremes and Motown,but Jean was not loyal to anyone,Lynda's probation was almost up,again things,couldn't be worked out,i'm happy things worked out the way they did,i love all The Supremes p.s Susaye Greene was Amazing.

Not only that, they could not take the name to another label...that was the biggest issue.

It never ceases to amaze me how differently Gordy treated his male artists. When the Tempts lost two members at the same time two years earlier than Jean and Lynda, they went into overdrive re-establishing the group.

Also, when the Tempts and the Miracles left the label, he let them keep their names. I think Smokey intervened on behalf of both groups. Perhaps, and likely it was, that a newly promoted group of Supremes on another label could have stolen thunder from Ross

[captainjames]

Does anyone remember Jean's last public appearance as a Supreme ?

[johnny_raven]

Wasn't it at Magic Mountain in Aug. '73?

[bradsupremes]

It never ceases to amaze me how differently Gordy treated his male artists. When the Tempts lost two members at the same time two years earlier than Jean and Lynda, they went into overdrive re-establishing the group.

Also, when the Tempts and the Miracles left the label, he let them keep their names. I think Smokey intervened on behalf of both groups. Perhaps, and likely it was, that a newly promoted group of Supremes on another label could have stolen thunder from Ross

Absolutely true. Look at the usage of the Andantes in the 60's on all the female groups recordings. Motown's reasoning was it was cheaper to fly in the lead rather than the whole group, yet you never saw them applying that method to the male groups. Motown could have easily used the Originals on the Temptations, Four Tops, Miracles recordings, but somehow they flew those groups in. Must have cost Motown a fortune.

[milven]

Absolutely true. Look at the usage of the Andantes in the 60's on all the female groups recordings. Motown's reasoning was it was cheaper to fly in the lead rather than the whole group, yet you never saw them applying that method to the male groups. Motown could have easily used the Originals on the Temptations, Four Tops, Miracles recordings, but somehow they flew those groups in. Must have cost Motown a fortune.

I definitely ain't no expert on the background voices[[ I was also fooled by Diana Ross records being labeled Supremes), but this clip sounds like the Four Tops are lip syncing to female voices.

[sup_fan]

there's a interesting video someone posted on this site of an interview with one of the Pips. he recalled hearing an initial playback of one of their early Motown recordings and the Andantes were added too. the group said - no way. our sound is our sound and it'll be made by us and only us!

[sup_fan]

also i think Gordy would NEVER have let the Supremes name go because of it's connection to Ross' history. i don't think he would have put up a fight if Martha wanted to reform the Vandellas at another label.

i bought randy's book on Beyonce and there are, obviously and not a surprise, a lot of references to Ross and the Supremes within the story. one interesting observation he makes is that Matthew Knowles [[beyonce's father and also manager of the group Destiny's Child) also managed the solo launches of the other to Destiny members and quite successfully too. Randy points out Matthew's business savvy here and directly compares it to Berry's lack of vision outside of Diana. how he could have molded and promoted different female artists and groups in different manners and have had success with it

[marv2]

there's a interesting video someone posted on this site of an interview with one of the Pips. he recalled hearing an initial playback of one of their early Motown recordings and the Andantes were added too. the group said - no way. our sound is our sound and it'll be made by us and only us!

I am the person who posted that video. My name is Marv. It was posted last week on the forum.

[marv2]

Absolutely true. Look at the usage of the Andantes in the 60's on all the female groups recordings. Motown's reasoning was it was cheaper to fly in the lead rather than the whole group, yet you never saw them applying that method to the male groups. Motown could have easily used the Originals on the Temptations, Four Tops, Miracles recordings, but somehow they flew those groups in. Must have cost Motown a fortune.

Brad, they also recorded a lot out in the field.

[sup_fan]

I am the person who posted that video. My name is Marv. It was posted last week on the forum.

Yes Marv. So sorry for not acknowledging you personally for posting a YouTube video here on the forum. Your effort and contribution here is most certainly recognized. Such a glaring oversight on my behalf

[milven]

Yes Marv. So sorry for not acknowledging you personally for posting a YouTube video here on the forum. Your effort and contribution here is most certainly recognized. Such a glaring oversight on my behalf

Well, Sup_fan, if you are so generously giving out credit for posting Bubba's You Tube video last week , then you owe me super praise for having posted it here way back in September

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread...t=BUBBA+KNIGHT

[blackguy69]

Some also failed to mention that Lynda was pregnant. So this talking to Pedro doesn't sound like the truth especially since he didn't take over the Supremes business till 1975

[sup_fan]

Well, Sup_fan, if you are so generously giving out credit for posting Bubba's You Tube video last week , then you owe me super praise for having posted it here way back in September

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread...t=BUBBA+KNIGHT

Lawd! Will the error of my ways never end?!?!

And here's a secret. I'm actually Tony Turner under alias and personally sat in on every meeting where Suzanne de Passe committed ever heinous act and I can personally attest to it!! I have secret evidence
Hehehe

[captainjames]

Now that was funny ......
.....................That made my night. LOL

Lawd! Will the error of my ways never end?!?!

And here's a secret. I'm actually Tony Turner under alias and personally sat in on every meeting where Suzanne de Passe committed ever heinous act and I can personally attest to it!! I have secret evidence
Hehehe

[Jimi LaLumia]

hey Tony Turner, if you actually are, it's Jimi LaLumia, the former manager/DJ at The Bunkhouse , Sayville, Long Island... it's been a VERRRRRRY long time..Happy New Year!.. If not really Tony, thanks for reminding me of the old days anyway..

[milven]

Jim, I think Sup_fan was just using his clever, sarcastic, sharp wit in his last few posts.

[Jimi LaLumia]

ahh.. well, I wouldn't be surprised if TT and some others 'visit' from time to time.. lost touch with lots of folks over the years

[Bluebrock]

I love those too and will add The Bob Hope Special from April 1973. She was perfection!

Not sure if I have seen the Bob Hope special, so I look forward to seeing that. All the others are readily available on youtube along with the Glen Campbell show which I also enjoyed.

[midnightman]

My four favorite Jean performances with the Supremes were the smokey robinson show, ed Sullivan show, The tom jones show and the flip Wilson show 1971 Its time to break down/stone love medley and ill add in the andy Williams show summer 1970.

I personally felt she was at her best on the Flip Wilson show.

[midnightman]

Not only that, they could not take the name to another label...that was the biggest issue.

It never ceases to amaze me how differently Gordy treated his male artists. When the Tempts lost two members at the same time two years earlier than Jean and Lynda, they went into overdrive re-establishing the group.

Also, when the Tempts and the Miracles left the label, he let them keep their names. I think Smokey intervened on behalf of both groups. Perhaps, and likely it was, that a newly promoted group of Supremes on another label could have stolen thunder from Ross

Berry treated his female groups as disposable. The Marvelettes' name was "sold" to that shady concert promoter until Gladys and Katherine began fighting to get the name back, least in America. The Supremes' name remains in Motown's control to this day. The only female groups who kept their names, as far as I know, are Martha and the Vandellas [[since Martha and them fought for it and won) and the Velvelettes. I know Otis and Melvin and Pete, Bobby & Ronnie negotiated with Berry to let them leave the label and keep control of their names while he wanted to play hardball with Mary over ownership of the Supremes' name and the Marvelettes had retired by the time their name was sold. But the Jackson 5 were all males and their original name is still in Motown's control as well. Guess some groups were lucky to get their name in their control?

[marv2]

Berry treated his female groups as disposable. The Marvelettes' name was "sold" to that shady concert promoter until Gladys and Katherine began fighting to get the name back, least in America. The Supremes' name remains in Motown's control to this day. The only female groups who kept their names, as far as I know, are Martha and the Vandellas [[since Martha and them fought for it and won) and the Velvelettes. I know Otis and Melvin and Pete, Bobby & Ronnie negotiated with Berry to let them leave the label and keep control of their names while he wanted to play hardball with Mary over ownership of the Supremes' name and the Marvelettes had retired by the time their name was sold. But the Jackson 5 were all males and their original name is still in Motown's control as well. Guess some groups were lucky to get their name in their control?

In 1990 the fighting ended. Berry and Mary settled. He gave her some money $$$,$$$, hehehehehehehehehe..........

[midnightman]

And I might add the thought of leaving Motown was introduced to MARY by the Four Tops. They met with Dunhill and liked what they heard. At the last minute Mary reneged, infuriating Jean who then said she wanted out. Lynda Laurence had no role in this.

Mary was a Motown loyalist. She felt Berry would've eventually helped them out and when he didn't, she was left bitter. And then there was the money she lost in trying to get the Supremes name back. It's sad. I always think had the Supremes had hired lawyers and attorneys [[or at least those who looked out for their best interest), their contract would've been a lot different than it was and their name probably would've been still under their control but signing with Motown in their initial contract enabled Motown to take everything from them and neither original member could fight for more royalties. Gladys Knight & The Pips' Motown contract had to be edited so Motown wouldn't have tried to take any control from them [[Bubba Knight recalls that when Motown initially gave them their contract, one of their longtime managers got IN that tail about it - telling GK&TP's to leave the office for a minute so they wouldn't be caught in the middle - and next thing you know, they were allowed back in to sign with Motown).

Plus the Supremes were all of minor ages [[combined age being 16). So their contract could've been similar to that of the Marvelettes [[combined age being 17), who also were of minor ages, and Mary Wells [[17), Stevie Wonder [[11) and the Jackson 5 [[combined age being 13). So they were easier to take advantage of than the ones who signed as adults or "legal" adults.

[marv2]

Not sure if I have seen the Bob Hope special, so I look forward to seeing that. All the others are readily available on youtube along with the Glen Campbell show which I also enjoyed.

[Jimi LaLumia]

just for the sake of clarity [[and legal mumbo jumbo), Motown signed The Primettes.."Supremes" was a name chosen from a piece of paper written by a Motown employee...the girls didn't come to the company with the name..just sayin.

[marv2]

just for the sake of clarity [[and legal mumbo jumbo), Motown signed The Primettes.."Supremes" was a name chosen from a piece of paper written by a Motown employee...the girls didn't come to the company with the name..just sayin.

But you have to admit without the hardwork and talent of the girls, the name "Supremes" would have meant nothing but a name on scrap piece of paper.

[Jimi LaLumia]

of course, but the 'legal mumbo jumbo' part, lawyers being what they are, is that Motown can claim and prove that the name originated at Motown, and is thereby a Motown 'product'..

[marv2]

of course, but the 'legal mumbo jumbo' part, lawyers being what they are, is that Motown can claim and prove that the name originated at Motown, and is thereby a Motown 'product'..

True but they broke the labor laws by signing contracts with minors without proper legal representation. This all came out in the big Wilson vs Motown lawsuit of 1977.

[Jimi LaLumia]

wow.. did not know that! didn't the parents have to sign, Mary's mom, etc?

[marv2]

wow.. did not know that! didn't the parents have to sign, Mary's mom, etc?

Yes they had too which is why Barbara Martin had a hard time. Her mom could read, Mary's could not read nor write!

[midnightman]

That's quite interesting but that just further proves the Supremes were mishandled by Motown due to them signing them as minors. I know the original quartet fought hard to get in that they didn't care about how they got in and maybe they should've cared about how they were gonna take care of themselves in the long run. I don't think Mary's mother graduated from high school, did she? Diana's mother signed for Diana [[her father was steadfastly against her signing a contract and I believe Diana's parents were separate around that time) and Florence's mother signed for her. I feel the parents should've done what Lula Hardaway did in making sure Stevie didn't get mishandled by Motown.

[midnightman]

just for the sake of clarity [[and legal mumbo jumbo), Motown signed The Primettes.."Supremes" was a name chosen from a piece of paper written by a Motown employee...the girls didn't come to the company with the name..just sayin.

I'm confused by this timeline. I always thought Motown wouldn't sign them had they NOT change their name. That's always been the official story, at least according to the original Supremes themselves. But Unsung had it like Motown signed them AS the Primettes and they changed their name to the Supremes much later... [[then again, it's Unsung lol)

[bradsupremes]

I'm confused by this timeline. I always thought Motown wouldn't sign them had they NOT change their name. That's always been the official story, at least according to the original Supremes themselves. But Unsung had it like Motown signed them AS the Primettes and they changed their name to the Supremes much later... [[then again, it's Unsung lol)

I believe their earliest recording done at Motown was in October 1960 while they were still the Primettes. It was unclear if "You Can Depend On Me" or "After All" was the first song recorded although I think recently it was realized "You Can Depend On Me" was the first one.

[StuBass1]

That's quite interesting but that just further proves the Supremes were mishandled by Motown due to them signing them as minors. I know the original quartet fought hard to get in that they didn't care about how they got in and maybe they should've cared about how they were gonna take care of themselves in the long run. I don't think Mary's mother graduated from high school, did she? Diana's mother signed for Diana [[her father was steadfastly against her signing a contract and I believe Diana's parents were separate around that time) and Florence's mother signed for her. I feel the parents should've done what Lula Hardaway did in making sure Stevie didn't get mishandled by Motown.

Stevie was somewhat of a special case since he was a very young kid and obviously blind. Special handling was required in Stevie's case...one of the reasons Berry was reluctant to sign him in the first place. I don't believe that Stevie got a much better deal or more promotion than anyone else at Motown. He lived with his family in a middle class neighborhood in Northwest Detroit... It wasn't until Stevie became of age and became a very valuable commodity in the 70's that Berry gave him a lucrative deal with production and songwriting rights instead of losing a hit commodity to another label. The Supremes weren't songwriters, nor did they have any production ambitions or apparent ability in that direction, so it was a much different story. When the guardians sign off, it's a done deal...and I have NO doubt based on the fact that the future Supremes used to hang out at Motown looking for any opportunity to get involved, that they were ecstatic to get the opportunity to become a part of the Motown stable...

[Jimi LaLumia]

bear in mind, the late 1950's and early 1960's were VERY different than the past decade or two.. now, there are protections in place for EVERYTHING.. back then, when I was a kid [[born in 1952) it was the "Wild West', anything went, especially where females, people of color, etc were concerned.. trying to place modern circumstances on events from 50 years ago won't get you very far

[StuBass1]

bear in mind, the late 1950's and early 1960's were VERY different than the past decade or two.. now, there are protections in place for EVERYTHING.. back then, when I was a kid [[born in 1952) it was the "Wild West', anything went, especially where females, people of color, etc were concerned.. trying to place modern circumstances on events from 50 years ago won't get you very far

That's very true...When I was 17 my mom needed to sign a recording contract for me. I believe they had given me a copy of the contract to show her first...then we went to the office and it was..."sign, sign"...They didn't giver her a literacy test, ask her if she understood what she was signing, or ask if she could read. I wasn't a female, nor considered a person of color [[although the group I signed with were)...Only in later years based on a campaign by former child actor Jackie Cooper and more currently Paul Peterson of Donna Reed Show and teen singing artist fame, that laws were implemented to help avoid childhood exploitation regarding work standards and contractual agreements...

[marv2]

bear in mind, the late 1950's and early 1960's were VERY different than the past decade or two.. now, there are protections in place for EVERYTHING.. back then, when I was a kid [[born in 1952) it was the "Wild West', anything went, especially where females, people of color, etc were concerned.. trying to place modern circumstances on events from 50 years ago won't get you very far

Same thing happened to Junior Walker. He asked Berry before signing his contract "Are you going to mess me around man?" to which Berry responded, " Go on and sign your contract, I ain't going to mess you around man" LOL!

[Roberta75]

Yes Marv. So sorry for not acknowledging you personally for posting a YouTube video here on the forum. Your effort and contribution here is most certainly recognized. Such a glaring oversight on my behalf

Lolololololololol. Too funny. ����

[REDHOT]

Marv,Thanks for postin' The Supremes Mary Jean and Lynda,singing Bad Weather,on The Bob Hope Special,the ladies were on point,looking good and sounding good,Supreme

[marv2]

Marv,Thanks for postin' The Supremes Mary Jean and Lynda,singing Bad Weather,on The Bob Hope Special,the ladies were on point,looking good and sounding good,Supreme

You are most welcome!

[midnightman]

Yeah I imagine the record industry was a really different animal back in those days... I can't even imagine having those type of contracts in 2016!

[Bluebrock]

Marv,Thanks for postin' The Supremes Mary Jean and Lynda,singing Bad Weather,on The Bob Hope Special,the ladies were on point,looking good and sounding good,Supreme

The girls sang this great song on so many TV shows both in the USA and the UK, and probably other parts of Europe as well.
I know we have debated on here why "bad weather" was not a big hit in the USA, but I am equally mystified as to why it didn't do that much better in the UK. It was given lots of airplay, the girls promoted it, and the single was readily available. I remember being with my cousin when he bought it and the record store had several copies in stock, fully expecting it to be a substantial hit. In my opinion it was one of the finest Supremes records of all time.
Once again regarding Jean I remain puzzled, and slightly angry as to why this was.

[luke]

Mary has written that Lynda had aligned herself with Jean.

[Bluebrock]

Mary has written that Lynda had aligned herself with Jean.

Yes she did. By this time neither Jean and Lynda were conversing with Mary and visa versa unless it was in front of the cameras or on stage if various sources are to believed. Something had to give, and of course it did.

[milven]

Since at that point, from what I am reading here, there was no way for Jean, Mary and Lynda to continue at Motown harmoniously, and Mary did not want to leave Motown; what would happen if Jean and Lynda approached a new label - perhaps with Cindy - and tried to get a contract under a new name. Many other groups reinvented themselves under new names. [[Starship, LaBelle, Ray Goodman & Brown).

Though, I doubt that Cindy would have gone with them. She seemed to be loyal to Mary - although that loyalty was not appreciated by Pedro who supposedly fired her.

But then, Cindy wasn't loyal to her Bluebells when she left to become a Supreme.

So who knows. Doesn't really matter about shoulda coulda, but it is fun to speculate.

[marv2]

Yes she did. By this time neither Jean and Lynda were conversing with Mary and visa versa unless it was in front of the cameras or on stage if various sources are to believed. Something had to give, and of course it did.

It turned out alright. Mary Wilson has the current #17 Billboard Dance Club hit and Jean & Lynda are out there somewhere living life.

[daviddh]

To Marv , or who ever can answer this. did the Supremes ever perform AUTMATICALLY sunshine?? I always liked that song. I assume this is when Cindy was out and Lynda was in or they could have been in UK touring.
the ladies did some great stuff in the 70s. they should have stuck to their own material but I realize they had little to say about it.

[REDHOT]

Yes Daviddh,they did it in they're live shows,and i'm here to tell you,the 3 part harmony was tight,at one time they had it in a medley also,Mary and Jean and Lynda sound great together,singing Automatically Sunshine ,live