Flo, Diana and People question

**luke** · 10-31-2015, 04:55 PM

Was this always a duet in performance with Diana or originally did FLo sing most of it? I had read somewhere Flo got a standing ovation whenever she sang it.

**BigAl** · 10-31-2015, 06:06 PM

At different times it was handled different ways. Sometimes Flo and Diane shared lead and at least one time Mary got a verse as well. Other times Diane did the lead throughout the entire song. When I saw them in August of '66, Flo led the first two verses and Diane led the final one, with Flo coming in for a soaring final line. Applause was thunderous but there was no standing ovation at that show. Much has been said about the lead being taken from Flo during the first Copa engagement but it's also been said that she decided she didn't want to handle it and willingly tossed it to Diane. It seems no one knows the real story on that. Still, as I mentioned, when I saw them after that engagement, it was Flo and Diane doing the leads.

**luke** · 10-31-2015, 09:32 PM

Thanks Al. One sources says Flo had been ill and Diana sang it that night and Flo never got to sing it again. It's hard to believe Flo would willingly give up her one semi solo in the show.

**marv2** · 10-31-2015, 10:12 PM

Florence would have never given that song up voluntarily. It was her only solo.

**midnightman** · 11-01-2015, 12:02 AM

In the recorded version [[1964), Florence sung for most of it except for the final bridge, which is sung by Diana, Florence comes back on lead after that bridge is completed and then the Supremes finish the song in unison.

**Bluebrock** · 11-01-2015, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

Florence would have never given that song up voluntarily. It was her only solo.

Agreed. Why would Flo just give up her only solo spot? I don't want this thread to turn controversial but it makes no sense to say she willingly gave up the spot when everyone knows she resented being constantly in the background.

**BigAl** · 11-01-2015, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by luke

One sources says Flo had been ill and Diana sang it that night and Flo never got to sing it again. It's hard to believe Flo would willingly give up her one semi solo in the show.

Yet another source has said that Flo was afraid she'd mess up and handed the lead to Diane, not that she was ill. Whatever the reason, as I mentioned, when I saw them a year later in August of '66, she was doing the lead in the first two verses and then did the coda, as we're familiar with from the studio and live recordings. Someone here posted an audio clip a while back which had Mary doing one verse as well. I don't remember where that came from. The next time I saw the group in March of '67, the song had been pulled from the act altogether.

**luke** · 11-01-2015, 09:02 AM

Well Flo never seemed to lack confidence and most sources say she was devastated to lose that solo. In fact two books say that's the exact moment she became unhappy in the Supremes and never recovered from it.

**marv2** · 11-01-2015, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Agreed. Why would Flo just give up her only solo spot? I don't want this thread to turn controversial but it makes no sense to say she willingly gave up the spot when everyone knows she resented being constantly in the background.

It would not make sense at all.

**captainjames** · 11-01-2015, 10:48 AM

From what I remember it was duet [[Flo and Diana) then solo [[Flo) then a Supreme song [[Flo, Mary and Diana) and then Diana [[solo). At least that is how I remember hearing it and dated as such. Motown was always experimenting and messing around with crap so I am not sure why some say taken from Flo or Flo giving it up. Florence never mentioned the song being taken from her nor has she ever said she gave up the song. I think we are all speculating on what we think or wish happened. I loved the way Florence started the song but Diana's finish was awesome. Motown should have done [[in my opinion) with those two singing together, it was a good match.

**midnightman** · 11-01-2015, 12:50 PM

I do think "People" showed all three of them at their best vocally. Florence sounded divine singing it, as did Diana and Mary.

**ejluther** · 11-01-2015, 02:18 PM

Whatever the reason, as I mentioned, when I saw them a year later in August of '66, she was doing the lead in the first two verses and then did the coda, as we're familiar with from the studio and live recordings

So when was the song reportedly taken from Flo? Before the August of '66?

As for Flo willingly giving it up, she had a lot of demons and seemed to suffer from low self-esteem a lot, for reasons both related and unrelated to The Supremes. And we even hear her choose not to sing lead on a verse [[the expanded COPA CD) so I can believe she opted not to sing it.

**marv2** · 11-01-2015, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by ejluther

So when was the song reportedly taken from Flo? Before the August of '66?

As for Flo willingly giving it up, she had a lot of demons and seemed to suffer from low self-esteem a lot, for reasons both related and unrelated to The Supremes. And we even hear her choose not to sing lead on a verse [[the expanded COPA CD) so I can believe she opted not to sing it.

That's not true. I know someone who was there. Flo did not give up that song.

**BayouMotownMan** · 11-01-2015, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

That's not true. I know someone who was there. Flo did not give up that song.

Florence had a bout with the flu and was hoarse so she temporarily gave up her lead parts on People until her voice was stronger. They then resumed the song the way it had always been done. It is not unusual for a singer to do this, nobody wants to sound bad.

Many people do not know that when the Supremes opened at the Copa in 1965, the girls went over so big that a third show was added opening night. The Marvelettes were there and two, on separate occasions told me that Diana was so hoarse for the third show that Florence took many of the leads. This is another reason that Gordy had Diana Ross re-record the show in the studio because of the hoarseness she was dealing with.

In 1966 when Flo started becoming difficult was when People was given fully to Diana.

**captainjames** · 11-01-2015, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

Florence had a bout with the flu and was hoarse so she temporarily gave up her lead parts on People until her voice was stronger. They then resumed the song the way it had always been done. It is not unusual for a singer to do this, nobody wants to sound bad.

Many people do not know that when the Supremes opened at the Copa in 1965, the girls went over so big that a third show was added opening night. The Marvelettes were there and two, on separate occasions told me that Diana was so hoarse for the third show that Florence took many of the leads. This is another reason that Gordy had Diana Ross re-record the show in the studio because of the hoarseness she was dealing with.

In 1966 when Flo started becoming difficult was when People was given fully to Diana.

Yes, that is what I remember as well, in fact that recording is a diamond of worth. However, if Flo had stayed we would have never got Cindy.

**BayouMotownMan** · 11-01-2015, 04:08 PM

That's all it was Captain but you know one person on here will it make it far more diabolical than it was.

**ejluther** · 11-01-2015, 04:44 PM

Diana was so hoarse for the third show that Florence took many of the leads.

I'd love to hear those tapes!

**antceleb12** · 11-01-2015, 05:00 PM

It is without question that Florence sang "People" through 1966. There is a readily-available recording of her and Mary duetting on it at the Roostertail in 1966, and video footage of her and Mary duetting on it during their tour of Asia in the fall of that year.

They had already had "People" in their repertoire before they recorded it [[in December 1964, same time as the sessions for "Back in My Arms Again"). Florence did not have a problem with Diana taking the last verse. She wanted it to be a group song as opposed to a solo.

What I have always found interesting is one of Florence's best recorded vocal accomplishments is that last riff on the 1964 recording. It truly blows you out of the water. Yet she has never, in any recordings, matched that prowess in live performances. It appears she may not have had terribly great confidence in her own performing abilities.

**antceleb12** · 11-01-2015, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Well Flo never seemed to lack confidence and most sources say she was devastated to lose that solo. In fact two books say that's the exact moment she became unhappy in the Supremes and never recovered from it.

I've never believed that it was the "exact" moment. There were many underlying issues between the disintegration of her relationship with Gordy and Ross. I strongly believe that her rape had a lot to do with it, as well as her mental health issues and her inability to cope with the unyielding pressures of fame.

Florence began to gain weight [[a lot of people blame this squarely on laziness and alcoholism, but no one takes into account genetics and that it is quite common for women to develop fuller figures as they mature) and the pressure she received from Gordy and others took its toll on her happiness. Diana increasingly became further and further distanced from Mary and Florence. Gordy is notable for particularly harsh criticisms toward the girls, and Florence took it the hardest.

Florence's mental health began quickly deteriorating by 1966. People who suffer from depression or post-traumatic mental stress don't necessarily require a specific switch for their behavior and mood to alter. Florence could have led a regular life and still eventually would have become unhappy. Since depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, events like her solo being taken away may not have helped, but I do not believe it was a cause. Frankly, I believe too many people then and now don't understand how mental illness works, which is why Florence is often labeled as "lazy," "ill-tempered," or "self-centered." I don't even think Florence understood her own feelings. As is the case for many with depression, it seems Florence felt her life collapsing and the only thing she knew how to do to cope with it was fight and retreat.

**luke** · 11-01-2015, 06:43 PM

Good comments though there's still debate over her weight issue. I believe in jrts latest Diana book he thinks Flo have may have tried to put cindys gown on on purpose she was so upset -part of infamous sticking stomach out incident and cindys gown smaller.Even if she didn't have all the issues you mention, having your one solo taken, your replacement taking notes in audience and being marginalized in group you started would have been so difficult for anyone.

**marv2** · 11-01-2015, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Good comments though there's still debate over her weight issue. I believe in jrts latest Diana book he thinks Flo have may have tried to put cindys gown on on purpose she was so upset -part of infamous sticking stomach out incident and cindys gown smaller.Even if she didn't have all the issues you mention, having your one solo taken, your replacement taking notes in audience and being marginalized in group you started would have been so difficult for anyone.

These guys talk about Florence like she was inhuman. Like she did not have normal human feelings and emotions. She was just 24 years old at that time. She knew right from wrong, but she did not know how to handle what was being done to her.

I could ask Berry Gordy himself, but he won't remember this stuff especially with the detail some of these guys "think" they know.

**luke** · 11-01-2015, 07:59 PM

Very good point Marv. It's not complicated. Florence was treated terribly and it greatly upset her! Duh!! This has been a reasonable discussion until ...

**midnightman** · 11-01-2015, 09:03 PM

I agree with marv and luke... and I'll leave it at that.

supremester · 11-01-2015, 10:41 PM

First of all, you need to know that People meant a lot to Flo - not just cuz it was her solo, but she conceived the idea and produced it herself - it was her baby: the harmonies, arrangement style, everything. She was proud of it because she created it - and, of course, because she led on it after the Diana does all leads edict. Berry & Harvey were not wild about it - especially for The Copa debut - but it was going to stay in because the song was so big in NYC. Then Flo got sick and couldn't sing it, so it was taken out for a while - but not for the entire run. Gil said he didn't recall Diana ever doing it as a solo - and said, "If she did, it was maybe once and in Florence's key because I know I never did charts for Diana to do People and she didn't want to sing it at all anyway as she liked having a break in the show to relax." Harvey and Gil both told me Mary felt, understandably, that she should get a solo since Flo had one. Berry, Harvey & Gil were adamant that no way was she going to solo since so much was riding on it. That's when Diana began to lobby to get her part in People to Mary, but the powers said no. After the reviews came out and the show was a smash, Gil changed his mind and agreed with Diana and they both nagged Berry about it until after Blinstraubs when Berry was convinced Diana needed less pressure and a chance to rest her voice - but look what it took!
I don't know how certain authors who knew the truth could feel comfortable leading their readers to think Flo never did People after The Copa and it led to her downfall.............especially when they sang with her on it ; ) people remained in the act until the new act arrived in Spring of '67.

**midnightman** · 11-01-2015, 11:17 PM

Actually it is quite a shame we don't have the 1964 recorded version of this song anywhere anymore. It was there for a brief time but I'm guessing YouTube took it down and no one has dared to post a version. Only the 1968 recording DR&TS did to cover the entire "Funny Girl" album seems to be up. FTR, I don't think Diana handled that version real well? It worked better when the original Supremes sung it in unison... and with each member switching leads in it [[which like the Marvelettes and Temptations they were really good at).

**BayouMotownMan** · 11-01-2015, 11:27 PM

Excellent post Supremester and accurate totally. There was no plot to take People away from Flo.

In fact, I loved Mary's solo spot on People, she was truly in fine voice and gave it a nuance that was different.

Some people also need to know the difference between being mistreated and not being treated the way one wants to be. Mary has said many times that she and Flo were treated like queens just as Diana was. It only became a problem for Flo when she could see the direction of the group was not going the way she wanted it. Still, Flo's absences, appearances and obstinance was tolerated for over a year before Motown finally HAD to do something. Any Vandella, Marvelette, Top or Temp would have killed to have been treated as good as Flo was. Gladys Horton said many times in her remembrances of Flo that she was shocked that Flo was depressed because Flo "had it so good" as Gladys put it.

I might point out that Flo, Diana and Mary were treated quite well pre-1964 when they consistently lost money for Motown by having no hits and few bookings.

**REDHOT** · 11-02-2015, 12:12 AM

But Motown got they're money back,when The Supremes hit,all the money Motown invested into The Supremes,Motown got they're money back first,before The Supremes got a dime.

**midnightman** · 11-02-2015, 12:49 AM

Why do I feel like that the last words of the post before Redhot's was in some way blaming the Supremes for not coming up with a hit in the pre-1964 period? I don't know about how not getting a billing on their tours count as "respect" or not.

supremester · 11-02-2015, 01:20 AM

I don't love Ross' '68 People either - she seems self conscious or something - I almost never play that album, but with The DMC mixes, it is better than The Andantes to my ear - Ross' vocals as well are quite good. I LOVE Ross' People from Leading Lady Medley.

Originally Posted by midnightman

Actually it is quite a shame we don't have the 1964 recorded version of this song anywhere anymore. It was there for a brief time but I'm guessing YouTube took it down and no one has dared to post a version. Only the 1968 recording DR&TS did to cover the entire "Funny Girl" album seems to be up. FTR, I don't think Diana handled that version real well? It worked better when the original Supremes sung it in unison... and with each member switching leads in it [[which like the Marvelettes and Temptations they were really good at).

**jobeterob** · 11-02-2015, 02:08 AM

People sucked. It sucked by Barbra Streisand, Diana Ross and Florence Ballard.

It's a crappy song; I wouldn't be surprised if Florence Ballard decided she'd had enough of it.

**Bluebrock** · 11-02-2015, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by midnightman

I agree with marv and luke... and I'll leave it at that.

I have to agree with you guys on this one and it is perhaps best that we all move on.

**antceleb12** · 11-02-2015, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Very good point Marv. It's not complicated. Florence was treated terribly and it greatly upset her! Duh!! This has been a reasonable discussion until ...

I'm sorry, but it is quite complicated. And it's extremely dismissive when we're talking about a series of events that essentially destroyed relationships and lives. This is not about "poor Flo" or a "plot to take Flo out." This is about how Florence was not mentally stable and that no one knew how to handle that. I'm not saying Florence was not capable of making decisions, but at the same time, what people forget is that these young women had the world on their shoulders and no one knew quite how to handle that. It's not about blaming Gordy. It's not about blaming Ross, or Wilson, or Cindy. And its definitely not something simple.

Frankly, I think there needs to be more discussion and attention on how many artists [[not just Florence) mentally dealt with the pressures placed upon them.

**marv2** · 11-02-2015, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by antceleb12

I'm sorry, but it is quite complicated. And it's extremely dismissive when we're talking about a series of events that essentially destroyed relationships and lives. This is not about "poor Flo" or a "plot to take Flo out." This is about how Florence was not mentally stable and that no one knew how to handle that. I'm not saying Florence was not capable of making decisions, but at the same time, what people forget is that these young women had the world on their shoulders and no one knew quite how to handle that. It's not about blaming Gordy. It's not about blaming Ross, or Wilson, or Cindy. And its definitely not something simple.

Frankly, I think there needs to be more discussion and attention on how many artists [[not just Florence) mentally dealt with the pressures placed upon them.

Look ,she was not born mentally unstable and she did not die mentally unstable. She was a victim of HER life's stresses put upon her. Now if you want to keep beating a dead horse, I am going say some things that could start WWIII in internet terms. Florence wasn't crazy. That's what other people with "things" to hide tried to project upon her to the public since she's been dead and cannot speak for herself or sue the bastards. It was done to deflect the heat from themselves. Pat, Linda, Jesse and all of them have told a different story of Flo than what I keep reading about here!

We should leave this alone or take it to it's natural completion and some people ain't gonna like it!

**antceleb12** · 11-02-2015, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Look ,she was not born mentally unstable and she did not die mentally unstable. She was a victim of HER life's stresses put upon her. Now if you want to keep beating a dead horse, I am going say some things that could start WWIII in internet terms. Florence wasn't crazy. That's what other people with "things" to hide tried to project upon her to the public since she's been dead and cannot speak for herself or sue the bastards. It was done to deflect the heat from themselves. Pat, Linda, Jesse and all of them have told a different story of Flo than what I keep reading about here!

We should leave this alone or take it to it's natural completion and some people ain't gonna like it!

Marv, I'm afraid you don't quite understand. You cannot possibly know whether or not she was born mentally unstable. There is a difference between being "crazy" and having a mental illness. This is not about justifying someone's actions. It's not about making excuses. As someone who has lived with someone who suffers from depression and other mental illnesses, I can tell you that Florence's behavioral patterns and increasingly erratic behavior very much fits these patterns.

When you have a mental illness, it doesn't just leave you. It's something from which she suffered from until the day she died. You can talk to whoever you want. As much as they might have to say, unless they themselves are afflicted with a mental illness, they cannot possibly understand how her brain worked.

Don't mistake my stance for naivety of Florence's actions and attitudes. I've heard it and read it all before. I stand my ground. It's not about defending Florence's actions. It's about making people aware just how complex mental illness is. If you're just going to right off her as temperamental or selfish, you don't have her side of the story and you don't have a grasp on how those types of mental illnesses can destroy a person. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. But you can't possibly rely on decades of rumor-milling and third-party perspective to make a decisive opinion about someone's state of mind without understanding human behavior and how different brain processes drastically alter a person's reasoning, behavior, and personality.

**midnightman** · 11-02-2015, 10:01 PM

Marv, you ain't said nothing but the truth there. Let Florence rest, y'all!!!

**antceleb12** · 11-02-2015, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

Marv, you ain't said nothing but the truth there. Let Florence rest, y'all!!!

Again...this is not about stirring up "drama" or talking about Florence. It's about understanding how mental instability took a toll on superstars like Florence.

Look at Janis Joplin, Etta James, Del Shannon, Estelle Bennett, Phil Spector, John Lennon....the list goes on and on.

Please take the time to re-read what I've said. I think there's a great deal of benefit from talking about this kind of stuff. Obviously I can't make anyone engage, but I think you should at least be willing to discuss it instead of outright rejecting my points.

**detmotownguy** · 11-02-2015, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Look ,she was not born mentally unstable and she did not die mentally unstable. She was a victim of HER life's stresses put upon her. Now if you want to keep beating a dead horse, I am going say some things that could start WWIII in internet terms. Florence wasn't crazy. That's what other people with "things" to hide tried to project upon her to the public since she's been dead and cannot speak for herself or sue the bastards. It was done to deflect the heat from themselves. Pat, Linda, Jesse and all of them have told a different story of Flo than what I keep reading about here!

We should leave this alone or take it to it's natural completion and some people ain't gonna like it!

Florence just needed direction on coping skills. These young ladies sky rocketed from one world to a completely different one. Mary wrote that she was once a carefree individual. When I listened to the interviews she gave, it struck me that she seem to have street smarts and was no dummy. Prob too smart for some people! I just don't think it is right to say she had mental illness. Does anyone know for sure if she had a clinical diagnosis? Does anyone think she was the one who had a realistic view of their success?

**antceleb12** · 11-02-2015, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by detmotownguy

Florence just needed direction on coping skills. These young ladies sky rocketed from one world to a completely different one. Mary wrote that she was once a carefree individual. When I listened to the interviews she gave, it struck me that she seem to have street smarts and was no dummy. Prob too smart for some people! I just don't think it is right to say she had mental illness. Does anyone know for sure if she had a clinical diagnosis? Does anyone think she was the one who had a realistic view of their success?

I don't think anyone ever had a strict diagnosis. For one, mental illness was not understood and not talked about back then. People who were treated will mental illness were either labeled "crazy" or it was explained as "exhaustion." Now while no one has an exact diagnosis for Florence, there are many signs that point to it.

To keep it brief, if you take into account Diana and Mary's recollection of Florence's personality and behavior between 1959 and 1967, there were drastic changes. The first, and probably the most pivotal, change occurred after her rape. Both Diana and Mary have stated that Florence was not quite the same after her rape.

Both Mary and Diana have said that when Florence laughed, everyone laughed. When she was angry or upset, everyone was as well. These extreme high and low differences in emotions and moods is highly characteristic of illnesses such as manic and bipolar depression.

Florence's mental state drastically changed around 1966 and it made little recovery over the next ten years. The fact that her financial downfall and mental downfall coincide is no small coincidence. It's documented she spent many nights just wandering the streets, having random fits of crying, and having periods of extreme highs and extreme lows.

supremester · 11-03-2015, 03:14 AM

Bring it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by marv2

Look ,she was not born mentally unstable and she did not die mentally unstable. She was a victim of HER life's stresses put upon her. Now if you want to keep beating a dead horse, I am going say some things that could start WWIII in internet terms. Florence wasn't crazy. That's what other people with "things" to hide tried to project upon her to the public since she's been dead and cannot speak for herself or sue the bastards. It was done to deflect the heat from themselves. Pat, Linda, Jesse and all of them have told a different story of Flo than what I keep reading about here!

We should leave this alone or take it to it's natural completion and some people ain't gonna like it!