Berry, Syreeta and Jean

[marv2]

Well, we each have our own opinion, however, you are mistaken: JMC had 7 top 40's - so what? They came off a year with 3 platinum singles and hit albums and could only get 2 songs in the top ten - 1 for a single week and one maxing out at #7. All that is great, but a big step down when each subsequent album showed a steep slide in sales. They lost their Vegas gig forever in just two years. The public didn't take to the new group. Hit siongles? Thell that to The Marvelettes or Vandelllas - they had hits and had to work like dogs just to pay the bills. People buy a single by anybody cuz they like the song. They buy the album if they like the act. They buy a ticket if they really like the act. Jean didn't hit vwith kids or adults.Yes, I think syreeta would have hi just as hard on all top 40s except EGTRTL - So, yes, still, a bad fit. IMHO. I can think of another singer who some felt would not make it and she didn't do too bad for herself, so I'm sticking with Syreeta. Jean was and is great talent - so what? It wasn't a good fit. Berry knew it. The public knew it. Mary realized it eventually. It's not all on Jean, however - had there not been such a dearth of material at Motown, JMC might have fared better.

They actually had 8 Top 40 hits in the Seventies if you include "River Deep, Mountain High" still no other female group even came close in the Seventies.

[REDHOT]

You're right again Marv,what The Supremes from the 70s did,was not some small change,they keep trying to discredit them smh lol

[Bluebrock]

Trust me Bluebrock,The Supremes Mary Cindy Jean and Lynda were still doing good,on the concert circuit,here in America.

That is good to hear Redhot.

[luke]

So true. Such a feat and considering the focus having been on Duana so much. Can you imagine if Flo had still been in the group!

[captainjames]

Great to hear Jean says despite all the tales that have been told in books that she was asked to be in the Supremes the same night Berry heard her and that she love the Supremes and were singing Supreme songs the night Berry heard her. Also, even the fact tat she sounded a bit like her to his ears. So from that night to the farewell performance something exploded.

[marv2]

You're right again Marv,what The Supremes from the 70s did,was not some small change,they keep trying to discredit them smh lol

This is why when the statement by Suzanne DePasse that they simply "sequined out" I knew that she was lying and the complaint from the Supremes that Motown was no longer supporting them and giving them promotion was true! They did everything to stop or to get the Supremes stop by using the excuse that the group had become a "revolving door" and that the public no longer knew who was in the group. They never did that to the Temptations.

[marv2]

So true. Such a feat and considering the focus having been on Duana so much. Can you imagine if Flo had still been in the group!

They had the potential to become even bigger than they were in the sixties.

[rod_rick]

My take on this thread is that if Syreeta was so great why did it take until 1979 for her to get a hit [["With You I'm Born Again"). Who's to say if Syreeta had become the new lead singer that the results would not have been the same or worse. Berry didn't do much for her as a solo artist Imo Jean was a good fit for the group.
Question, what made them add the old DR & Supremes songs?

[Bluebrock]

They had the potential to become even bigger than they were in the sixties.

Not sure I agree with that. From a personal point of view I actually preferred the JMC line up to any previous or future line up but it would have been impossible to sustain or exceed the level of success of the 60's. Even DMC struggled to get major hits in the late 60's on a regular basis. I do agree that Motown scaled down their interest in the 70's Supremes which was a crying shame but let's be honest here. The final pair of Jean led albums were much weaker than "ro", "nwbls" and touch". The Jimmy Webb album was a mess with no major hits on it. No amount of support could rescue that album.

[marv2]

Not sure I agree with that. From a personal point of view I actually preferred the JMC line up to any previous or future line up but it would have been impossible to sustain or exceed the level of success of the 60's. Even DMC struggled to get major hits in the late 60's on a regular basis. I do agree that Motown scaled down their interest in the 70's Supremes which was a crying shame but let's be honest here. The final pair of Jean led albums were much weaker than "ro", "nwbls" and touch". The Jimmy Webb album was a mess with no major hits on it. No amount of support could rescue that album.

They may have struggled to get a hit in the late sixties, but they got a big hit first time out with Jean Terrell! I also could see them branching out more into acting from the skits I saw on the Flip Wilson Show, etc. They moved beyond just endorsing products to promoting their own. Yeah, with the right support I could imagine the group becoming bigger in the 70s.

[Bluebrock]

They may have struggled to get a hit in the late sixties, but they got a big hit first time out with Jean Terrell! I also could see them branching out more into acting from the skits I saw on the Flip Wilson Show, etc. They moved beyond just endorsing products to promoting their own. Yeah, with the right support I could imagine the group becoming bigger in the 70s.

One thing we can agree on - The 70's Supremes suffered from poor promotion from 1972 onwards. It is impossible to say for sure what could have been, and maybe with stronger material the Jean led group could have lasted for longer but I remain unconvinced. Motown did get behind the "high energy" album but by that time it was too little too late and Jean was sadly long gone.

[midnightman]

My take on this thread is that if Syreeta was so great why did it take until 1979 for her to get a hit [["With You I'm Born Again"). Who's to say if Syreeta had become the new lead singer that the results would not have been the same or worse. Berry didn't do much for her as a solo artist Imo Jean was a good fit for the group.
Question, what made them add the old DR & Supremes songs?

Motown didn't know what to do with her. Stevie Wonder produced two great albums on her that barely got promotion. Leon Ware tried to produce a hit for Syreeta [[following his success with Marvin Gaye and Minnie Riperton) and that went unrecognized as well. Motown in the '70s didn't work on their artists as much as they used to in the '60s.

[rod_rick]

Motown didn't know what to do with her. Stevie Wonder produced two great albums on her that barely got promotion. Leon Ware tried to produce a hit for Syreeta [[following his success with Marvin Gaye and Minnie Riperton) and that went unrecognized as well. Motown in the '70s didn't work on their artists as much as they used to in the '60s.

Thanks for the reply. Didn't know about the Leon Ware lp. Any idea why JML went back to the DR & Supremes songs? Their set list from 70 to early 72 was pretty good.

[sup_fan]

from what i've heard there was a sort of "knee jerk" reaction by mid 72 or so. basically like "whoa things seem to be sliding here with lack of mega hits and all - maybe we've strayed TOO FAR from the DRATS image and kittenish, girl group vegas stuff"

obviously that's a simplification of it. the girls had a strong 70 but 71 was weaker - only Nathan Jones a hit. Touch and You Gotta Have love failed. FJ did ok in very late 71/early 72. but then cindy left, Auto Sun and Wonderful Sweet didn't do much. I Guess was a bust. also the albums did increasingly worse. the 4 Tops duets bombed [[outside of the first single), New Ways sold poorly and Touch did even worse. the DRATS struggled a bit but their lowest singles and lps did better than Touch, Gotta have Love, sweet love Bad weather, i guess.

[supremester]

JMC/JML had 7 top 40's: Ladder, Everybody's, Stoned, River, Nathan, Floy & Automatically. 7 top 40 hits - ironically the same number Diana had in the same time frame [[If not counting Special Part Of Me.) Up The Ladder was not a big hit at all, it was a hit, period. One week at #10 that no one knows now. For many, many years they didn't even have a hits package - you could buy Ladder on a Yesteryear 45 for a while or not at all.

Problem was that their LP sales - the true mark of support for an act nosedived immediately and never recovered. 25,68,116,85,155,54,160,129. They never caught up where DR&TS left off in the concert circuit. They had no "A" List club dates at all, no arenas anymore, just smaller venues and hotel rooms outside of NYC. The public never accepted them like before and I think it was cuz Jean had no spark - JMC were matronly and looked old next to Honey Cone, Labelle, 3 Degrees, Love Unlimited, Pointers - JML was an improvement but they were still wearing huge old show gowns and had zero street cred. They should have left Motown, altered their name like The J5 did and tried a fresh start like The Tops & Spinners. It worked for them, not The Tempts, but you never know until you try. She made a lot of bad decisions, then blamed it all on lack of promotion and the inanity of Berry's fear JMC would be bigger than Diana or some such rot. anyone who knows anything about BG [[without getting their info from Dreamgirl) would know there's nothing BG would have liked better than JMC to give Miss Ross a run for her money - financially and competitively.

[marv2]

JMC/JML had 7 top 40's: Ladder, Everybody's, Stoned, River, Nathan, Floy & Automatically. 7 top 40 hits - ironically the same number Diana had in the same time frame [[If not counting Special Part Of Me.) Up The Ladder was not a big hit at all, it was a hit, period. One week at #10 that no one knows now. For many, many years they didn't even have a hits package - you could buy Ladder on a Yesteryear 45 for a while or not at all.

Problem was that their LP sales - the true mark of support for an act nosedived immediately and never recovered. 25,68,116,85,155,54,160,129. They never caught up where DR&TS left off in the concert circuit. They had no "A" List club dates at all, no arenas anymore, just smaller venues and hotel rooms outside of NYC. The public never accepted them like before and I think it was cuz Jean had no spark - JMC were matronly and looked old next to Honey Cone, Labelle, 3 Degrees, Love Unlimited, Pointers - JML was an improvement but they were still wearing huge old show gowns and had zero street cred. They should have left Motown, altered their name like The J5 did and tried a fresh start like The Tops & Spinners. It worked for them, not The Tempts, but you never know until you try. She made a lot of bad decisions, then blamed it all on lack of promotion and the inanity of Berry's fear JMC would be bigger than Diana or some such rot. anyone who knows anything about BG [[without getting their info from Dreamgirl) would know there's nothing BG would have liked better than JMC to give Miss Ross a run for her money - financially and competitively.

Yeah and Mary Wilson, Scherrie Payne, Susaye Greene [[& Cindy Birdsong if you want to get technical...) had one in "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" which made [[8) EIGHT for the Supremes in the 1970s making the most successful female group of the decade in terms of number of Top 40 hits. They had a number one R&B Hit with "Stoned Love".

[marv2]

JML was an improvement but they were still wearing huge old show gowns and had zero street cred.

Oh they had plenty of "Street cred"...........................just not on your street!

These dancers are NOT faking the funk! LOL!

[marv2]

They were not kidding around when they jammed to this one either in the 70s

[marv2]

I don't know about anyone else, but I do know that the black community still loved them and loved their music even more in the 70s because it was more soulful and not that weak pop shit they were starting to perform regularly by late 60s. They made the covers of multiple black publications, multiple times in the 70s!

Whenever you hear a black woman say "go on girl" [[as you'll hear from some of the female dancers in the above clip), you know somebody's gettin' down and that somebody is Jean with the Supremes....! LOL!

[marv2]

Between 1970 -77 The Supremes scored [[9) NINE Top 40 R&B hits more than any other female group in the 70's.

[REDHOT]

Hey Marv and other,please don't respond to him,hes trying to start trouble and mess,don't fall for his game.

[marv2]

Here's one of my favorites of their 8 Top 40's...."Automatically Sunshine"!

[marv2]

Hey Marv and other,please don't respond to him,hes trying to start trouble and mess,don't fall for his game.

I know you are right. It's pretty hard for him to disguise his trouble making ways. Most of it doesn't even make sense so I chuckle a little at it, hehehehehehehehehe!

[luke]

Thank you Marv! Never seen this Bad Weather performance on soul train. Is it new? Jean is perfect! Wow! And Mary is such a great dancer!! How high did Bad Weather get on soul chart?

[jobeterob]

None of the 70's Supremes albums sold much; they just sold worse and worse and worse. Every single got full page Billboard and Cashbox ads ~ so somebody paid for them; I guess ultimately the Supremes because they had to pay for all of that.

But still, success just slipped away.

I highly doubt Syreeta would have made a difference and the fact is it just didn't happen.

[midnightman]

That ST performance of Bad Weather is the JAM!

The Supremes' 1970s success speaks for itself, I think!

[honest man]

I don't know about anyone else, but I do know the black community still loved them and loved their music even more in the 70s because it soulful and not the weak pop shit they were starting to perform regularly by late 60s. They made the covers of multiple black publications multiple times in the 70s!

Whenever you hear you hear a black woman say "go on girl" [[as you'll hear from some of the female dancers in the above clip), you know somebody's gettin' down and that somebody is Jean with the Supremes....! LOL!

Maybe that was the problem ,all the years Motown guided them to crossover and they ditched it,whatever your opinion, mine is nothing to do with race they had run their chart lifespan end off.Jesus why does everything come back to colour etc with some people.

[marv2]

Thank you Marv! Never seen this Bad Weather performance on soul train. Is it new? Jean is perfect! Wow! And Mary is such a great dancer!! How high did Bad Weather get on soul chart?

Nah, it's been on Youtube for a while. I remember when I first saw it on TV. I was like, WTF? I didn't even know they were able to get down like that! LOL! and they were singing live!. Oh yeah, Mary's been to a house party or two. The dancing was much more funky than the little hand movements they were known for back in the 60s.

[marv2]

That ST performance of Bad Weather is the JAM!

The Supremes' 1970s success speaks for itself, I think!

They were superb! It is so nice that so much of it has been preserved on film and video to show just how great they were.
It eliminates the need to argue that fact!

[marv2]

The Supremes were still putting it down on up into the 70s! They had the goods to continue on for years afterwards as well. From 1976:

[midnightman]

They were superb! It is so nice that so much of it has been preserved on film and video to show just how great they were.
It eliminates the need to argue that fact!

Yep. Some folks wanna think the Supremes didn't matter after the '60s but they did.

[midnightman]

Nah, it's been on Youtube for a while. I remember when I first saw it on TV. I was like, WTF? I didn't even know they were able to get down like that! LOL! and they were singing live!. Oh yeah, Mary's been to a house party or two. The dancing was much more funky than the little hand movements they were known for back in the 60s.

Yeah I remember when it was first posted in the olden days of YouTube before labels went copyright nuts. LOL Shocked it's still on here, which is a good thing. I think I first saw it on Dailymotion because YT actually did block it for a while and then unblocked it.

[supremester]

He's not trying to start anything, Missy - I am discussing the thread and why I feel Syreeta would have been a better choice. Why are you attacking me for stating my opinion? Just last week you were sticking up for someone writing anti Ross things because it was his opinion and all opinions should be respected - why be such a hypocrite? I'm not even saying anything bad about anyone - just stating the facts that JMC weren't that big of a record act - even Jean was complaining about how little money they were making - why are you whining and crying about this simple discussion? I liked JMC - I bought the records and had the slightly tacky Right On poster on my bedroom door. I don't throw catatonic tantrums if someone writes Sorry Doesn't Always make it Right or Bless You didn't hit - cuz they didn't - it's not exactly bad news, 45 years later, hun. You talk a good game, but you don't walk the walk, Antoinette. Is that why they named a home perm after you - because you permanently repeat the same thing over and over whenever anyone writes something you don't like about Mary???? If I wanted to get neggy about la Mare, I'd have lots to say about recent occurrences but I ain't even brought it up 'cos I'm trying not to start trouble. I like this topic. I discussed it with Mary and she has agreed Berry was right about Jean - although she didn't think so at the time.

Hey Marv and other,please don't respond to him,hes trying to start trouble and mess,don't fall for his game.

[marv2]

Yep. Some folks wanna think the Supremes didn't matter after the '60s but they did.

I agree Midnightman, but I'd like to add that there also people that WANTED others to think that the Supremes did not matter after the 60s. Think about that and think about the folks that had and have been promoting that idea!

[midnightman]

^ Can't argue with that, marv.

[marv2]

^ Can't argue with that, marv.

It's like this. If I tell you over and over and over that somethings not good, after a while, you might start to believe it. I remember fans back at the time being frustrated and confused over this. We could see with our eyes and hear with our eyes that the ladies were great!

[supremester]

I think all of Jean's live performances of Bad Weather are light years ahead of her recorded release. I like this, like Kate Smith better and I think they did a killer one on Mike Douglas or Sonny & Cher. Here is my fave Jean TV performance ever - she's every inch the diva they needed, but it just happened too late. her hair & makeup are perfect, her physical & vocal performance are stunning - and her hair works perfectly with that neck line. Did they do Bad weather on this? The sound is rough, but the exquisite vocal shines through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt7qxFOH5Z4

[QUOTE=marv2;307780]They were not kidding around when they jammed to this one either in the 70s

[captainjames]

He's not trying to start anything, Missy - I am discussing the thread and why I feel Syreeta would have been a better choice. Why are you attacking me for stating my opinion? Just last week you were sticking up for someone writing anti Ross things because it was his opinion and all opinions should be respected - why be such a hypocrite? I'm not even saying anything bad about anyone - just stating the facts that JMC weren't that big of a record act - even Jean was complaining about how little money they were making - why are you whining and crying about this simple discussion? I liked JMC - I bought the records and had the slightly tacky Right On poster on my bedroom door. I don't throw catatonic tantrums if someone writes Sorry Doesn't Always make it Right or Bless You didn't hit - cuz they didn't - it's not exactly bad news, 45 years later, hun. You talk a good game, but you don't walk the walk, Antoinette. Is that why they named a home perm after you - because you permanently repeat the same thing over and over whenever anyone writes something you don't like about Mary???? If I wanted to get neggy about la Mare, I'd have lots to say about recent occurrences but I ain't even brought it up 'cos I'm trying not to start trouble. I like this topic. I discussed it with Mary and she has agreed Berry was right about Jean - although she didn't think so at the time.

You are not the only one that Mary has admitted that Gordy was right in his premonition or feelings on Jean. Mary was caught between a rock and a hard place. I am glad still that she stayed with Motown. Jean was a great singer but no one was interested in hearing Jean with the heavyweights. It was Gordy who saw her, approached her and got her to Motown.

[ralpht]

Okay, I'm sensing a wee bit of tension above. This is a good thread gang. Keep it that way.

[midnightman]

It's like this. If I tell you over and over and over that somethings not good, after a while, you might start to believe it. I remember fans back at the time being frustrated and confused over this. We could see with our eyes and hear with our eyes that the ladies were great!

I agree. They were fantastic.

[midnightman]

Love the extended version of this!

[supremester]

if you would PLEASE ask Redhot to stop attacking me and anyone else whpo hints at something he doesn't like, there would be none. He has posted the same thing, usually calling me names for a year now - then telling people to ignore me.

Okay, I'm sensing a wee bit of tension above. This is a good thread gang. Keep it that way.

[BayouMotownMan]

I'll jump in here and perhaps my friend Ralph may remember this about Berry Gordy himself.

Gordy always second-guessed himself. Examples: Hours before "Mahogany" was to hit theatres he had an anxiety attack and nearly stopped the premier. Also, he was going to pull Ross out of the Supremes during the run of You Keep Me Hangin' On and changed then as well at the last minute. He agreed to the release of Marvin's What's Going On lp, then reneged until there was a hit single first to sell the album. Berry Gordy pulled many of his own mixes, such as Do You Love Me, Let Me Go The Right Way and Way Over There among many others to constantly re-mix the track for supposed greater effect. As I recall, he nearly cancelled Love Child at the last minute because it wasn't a love song. I think the whole thing with Jean Terrell falls under this character trait; he was the one who selected Jean and he was the one to take the blame if the grouping didn't work.

This happens among artistic people; they always second guess themselves.

What do u think of this Ralph? Logical?

[midnightman]

Berry had issues. Always did. The Posner book describes a 46-year-old Gordy going through the motions around the time Mahogany came out as the "old" Motown empire was falling apart. People still have issues of him suddenly ditching Detroit for Los Angeles when he did. He always made [[or tried to make) sudden changes. I'm glad Mary stood to her ground in this matter. If there was one thing he couldn't do well, was manage groups. Yes he helped to promote them and make them stars but management of them was always a wreck, which is why Joe Jackson got his sons the heck out of Dodge from them [[first with the Las Vegas stints and then to Epic). He managed the Supremes as well. And we know how he managed that! Mary had to do what she had to do. They had already worked with Jean in the studio around this time, that was a lot of money they spent on studio sessions. They weren't just gonna suddenly dump Jean because Berry decided last minute Syreeta should join!

[REDHOT]

Plus Berry was gonna find some way,to make The Supremes pay,for all those recording sessions,that Jean had recorded,as a Supreme,had he replaced Jean with Syreeta,The Supremes would still have to pay,that mean The Supremes Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong,and who ever took Diana's place.

[midnightman]

Exactly. Berry's money wasn't gonna trouble him, that's why he [[and other similar label bosses) was that ballsy to say "you pay for it", a habit that still continues for whatever reason... and if you ever defied him in a way, he just simply wasn't gonna work with you. Luckily at that time, the Supremes had a lot of backing that they were able to carry on for the next seven years. "Stone Love" could've easily been a 12th No. 1 pop hit had Motown not erred in naming the song "Stoned Love" before it was ready for release.

[Bluebrock]

We can argue all day long about how successful the 70's Supremes were or were not but to many people they were a wonderfully talented group who recorded some classic songs. I am so grateful for You tube which gives us chance to see this wonderful line up doing what they did best. I just wish we could find footage of the girls performing "Nathan Jones". That song appears to be the only major hit where a TV performance is not currently available - unless someone here knows something I don't.
Marv, you are usually very resourceful in these matters. I shall keep my fingers crossed.

[midnightman]

^ The closest to one is an audio-only version of them performing a faster version of it on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.

[carole cucumber]

[marv2]

Thanks Carole. That was great!