Diana Ross - Surrender [[1971)

[midnightman]

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I love "Surrender", midnightman. It's a great example of the Motown magic created by the powerhouse team of Ashford & Simpson and Diana Ross. Nick & Val knew how to bring the best out of Diana utilizing the best material suited to her classy style. I've always wished that Motown had teamed them up for more than just the three albums.

[reese]

SURRENDER is one of my favorite Diana albums. Her vocals on every song are great. I always thought Nick and Val were the best producers she ever had.

[jobeterob]

And If You See Him was classic Diana, at her very best.

The Surrender vocal is good but the song is not that strong.

[midnightman]

@Phillies/Motown Gary, yeah A&S definitely knew Diana inside and out better than any of the producers who worked with her [[imo)

@reese, yeah I even go on board to say Surrender was the best album she ever did, bar none... every song is PERFECT. I loved her dramatic version of Reach Out for example. Takes me somewhere else. And don't get me started on All the Befores...lol

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Yeah, Reese, to our ears, Ashford & Simpson were responsible for Diana's finest Motown material. I've gotta give a huge nod to the late, great Michael Masser, too. He gave the lady some truly gorgeous masterpieces.

And, midnightman, I, too, love Diana's dramatic ballad version of "Reach Out I'll Be There". I was hooked on it the first time I heard it! I especially love the mix used on the yellow '78 "Ross" album. It's even more intense, and the strings literally sing on that sucker! It just goes to prove that you don't have to have a thick, husky voice to be soulful. And Diana's "All The Befores" is not only beautiful, it's gotta be the saddest break-up song ever recorded by Diana and Motown. [["I wrote a nice, long letter explaining my reason for leaving - hoping it would tear you apart and leave you grieving.") Thanks to the immense talents of Nick & Val and Diana, intense, romantic Motown drama never sounded better!

[lakedistrictlad1]

It rattles me when I read music reviewers and writers saying things like 'Diana Ross has a weak voice / a light voice / never had the vocal power of her peers, etc etc.

The albums she did with Ashford and Simpson are the greatest showcase for her beautiful, soulful, expressive and commanding voice.

I think Ashford & Simpson brought out the very best in her vocal performances of her career, aside from writing great songs.

[Bluebrock]

I love "Surrender", midnightman. It's a great example of the Motown magic created by the powerhouse team of Ashford & Simpson and Diana Ross. Nick & Val knew how to bring the best out of Diana utilizing the best material suited to her classy style. I've always wished that Motown had teamed them up for more than just the three albums.

Diana never sounded better when produced by A&S. They knew just what to do with her voice. This album along with "Diana Ross" 1970 and of course "the boss" are highlights in her impressive catalogue of recordings.

[RossHolloway]

I think the alternate mix on the Expanded Edition is even better and more soulful than the 45 mix. The alt mix made me fall in love with the song. Diana and A&S did a lot of great work together. HDH, A&S and Michael Masser all brought out the best in Diana Ross.

[Bluebrock]

I think the alternate mix on the Expanded Edition is even better and more soulful than the 45 mix. The alt mix made me fall in love with the song. Diana and A&S did a lot of great work together. HDH, A&S and Michael Masser all brought out the best in Diana Ross.

Agreed, and I would also add to a slightly lesser extent Edwards & Rodgers, Lionel Richie, The Gibb Brothers and Luther Vandross.

[midnightman]

Yeah those guys were great too. With A&S, they were able to successfully bring out her soulful range, which is a triumph when you consider the voice used to sell all those '60s hits was more pop-soul. And I feel that's why early solo Diana was underrated. She really brought the sass and drama to soul music. And she's so under-appreciated in that sense.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Agreed, and I would also add to a slightly lesser extent Edwards & Rodgers, Lionel Richie, The Gibb Brothers and Luther Vandross.

Yeah, Bluebrock. A Diana album produced by Lionel Richie could have been magical. And Luther wanted to produce a full album on Diana, but she wouldn't [[couldn't?) go for it. I never understood that. The results of that project would have been sheer heaven.

[supremester]

HELP!!!!!
What's wrong with me?
I love Miss Ross at least as much as anyone else....... why don't I love what her other mega fans love? I don't like Endless Love. Rarely ever played BIM until the reissue, and Surrender is my least fave of all her albums before Ross 78. Of course, my Remember Me 45 is sacred, and I love All The Befores, Can't Give Back The Love works very well but.............the rest is just OK to me. I prefer her vocals on the previous album.

What am I not getting?

Surrenderly Challenged

[jobeterob]

HELP!!!!!
What's wrong with me?
I love Miss Ross at least as much as anyone else....... why don't I love what her other mega fans love? I don't like Endless Love. Rarely ever played BIM until the reissue, and Surrender is my least fave of all her albums before Ross 78. Of course, my Remember Me 45 is sacred, and I love All The Befores, Can't Give Back The Love works very well but.............the rest is just OK to me. I prefer her vocals on the previous album.

What am I not getting?

Surrenderly Challenged

Listen to And If You See Him 10 times in a row tonight!

[sansradio]

Surrender, IMO, is arguably Ross's finest hour as a soul singer. Magnificent work.

[thanxal]

HELP!!!!!
What's wrong with me?
I love Miss Ross at least as much as anyone else....... why don't I love what her other mega fans love? I don't like Endless Love. Rarely ever played BIM until the reissue, and Surrender is my least fave of all her albums before Ross 78. Of course, my Remember Me 45 is sacred, and I love All The Befores, Can't Give Back The Love works very well but.............the rest is just OK to me. I prefer her vocals on the previous album.

What am I not getting?

Surrenderly Challenged

To each his/her own, Supremester.

To me, BIM is butter for the ears. I loved it the instant I heard it.

[144man]

And If You See Him was classic Diana, at her very best.

The Surrender vocal is good but the song is not that strong.

I think "Surrender" is a great song and exactly the type of material I like hearing Diana singing.

[jobeterob]

I would take BIM over Surrender ~ except And If You See Him belongs on BIM.

[kenneth]

I'm not a big fan of the "Surrender" album. I think A&S tried too hard to repeat "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" with the same type of anthems and formulaic material. I haven't played it in a while, but the last time I listened to the expanded edition, I got really tired of the title song...I think there are 4 versions on it!

[mysterysinger]

The fact that pretty much all her Motown producers are cited as bringing out the best in Diana Ross proves one thing really - she was good, very good in fact, and worked hard too to get the best sound.

In terms of the "Surrender" album, on a personal level I thought it patchy.The highlights were very strong, of course.
"Remember Me" is unforgettable,
I do love "And If You See Him" ,
"Surrender" is ok, if a bit too derivative of ANMHE,
"Did You Read The Morning Paper", "A Simple Thing Like Cry", "I'll Settle For You", "I'm A Winner" and "All The Befores" are good tracks BUT
those cover versions don't do it for me I'm afraid. The originals were so well known to me and I thought in these cases Diana's were not as enjoyable. "Reach Out", "Didn't You Know", "I Can't Give Back The Love" - no not really. I do feel Diana did much better albums.

[platters81]

I think the song morphed from the UK 1966 Carrolls song which Ashford and Simpson also wrote..........i cant trace a Motown version of this but there is supposed to be a publishers acetate of Valerie Simpson singing the song...let me know what you think.....The lead singer of the Carrolls became in later life UK comedienne Faith Brown

https://youtu.be/MbNSQcgrgzg

[detmotownguy]

I'm not a big fan of the "Surrender" album. I think A&S tried too hard to repeat "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" with the same type of anthems and formulaic material. I haven't played it in a while, but the last time I listened to the expanded edition, I got really tired of the title song...I think there are 4 versions on it!

Mare there any major differences among the 4 versions of Surrender? Also is there a song on that album that was leftover fr the Drats days. Maybe I Can't Give Back..... Lastly do you think Surrender is similar to Mountain based on your comment of the album being formulaic? Thanks

[sansradio]

I think the song morphed from the UK 1966 Carrols song which Ashford and Simpson also wrote..........i cant trace a Motown version of this but there is supposed to be a publishers acetate of Valerie Simpson singing the song...let me know what you think.....The lead singer of the CarrolLs became in later life UK comedienne Faith Brown

https://youtu.be/MbNSQcgrgzg

I did not know about this! Clearly, this was the prototype. Great contribution, platters81!

[jobeterob]

Alternate Stereo Mix.

[captainjames]

I think it was Luther Vandross who said "Surrender" was one of his favorite songs by Diana Ross. I have always loved this album. Side one was incredible the way it was laid out. If one more song was to be pulled off that album I would have picked "Settle For You" but my personal favorite was " A Simple Thing like Cry".

[Bluebrock]

HELP!!!!!
What's wrong with me?
I love Miss Ross at least as much as anyone else....... why don't I love what her other mega fans love? I don't like Endless Love. Rarely ever played BIM until the reissue, and Surrender is my least fave of all her albums before Ross 78. Of course, my Remember Me 45 is sacred, and I love All The Befores, Can't Give Back The Love works very well but.............the rest is just OK to me. I prefer her vocals on the previous album.

What am I not getting?

Surrenderly Challenged

Supremester - There is nothing at all wrong with you! It's all a matter of personal opinion. When mentioning Lionel i was specifically refering to "missing you" rather than "endless love". I cannot understand why you don't care much for the other stuff you mention but that again is entirely a matter of personal taste. I treasure the A&S produced stuff and really wish they had done another album with Diana in the 80's when she was making [[in my opinion) quite poor albums. Luther could have worked wonders with her. An associate of Luther once told me how keen he was to do a whole album on her. He wined and dined her and literally begged to be given the chance, but at the time she was a newly wed and didn't regard her recording career as a priority. "it's hard for me to say" was a gem, and there are unconfirmed rumours of another 2/3 Luther produced tracks recorded in London around the same time. I have never been able to verify how accurate this rumour was. Sorry for going slightly off topic.

[144man]

I think the song morphed from the UK 1966 Carrolls song which Ashford and Simpson also wrote..........i cant trace a Motown version of this but there is supposed to be a publishers acetate of Valerie Simpson singing the song...let me know what you think.....The lead singer of the Carrolls became in later life UK comedienne Faith Brown

https://youtu.be/MbNSQcgrgzg

At the time, I thought it was unlikely that the Carrolls' version was the original, but I was never able to trace an earlier one.

[thommg]

I've always liked Surrender. When Diana does that little squeal and sings "Give it to me!" I'm in heaven. I loved every song on this album but All The Befores was a gem, right at the end. I hadn't thought of it's sounding Ain't No Mountain High Enough-like because Reach Out [[I'll Be There) seemed to fill that position, but now, listening to it with that thought in mind it seems to have that quality.

And I enjoyed And If You See Him, but was anyone else perturbed by the double vocal suddenly coming into one voice? I am still not used to that.

Doing a Wiki search of the album, I came across this notation regarding the expanded edition: "On this edition, "Reach Out, I'll Be There" [[5:35) and "Did You Read the Morning Paper?" [[4:11) are not the same versions as issued on the 1986 CD. " I don't think I remembered that. Now I have to go back and listened to all the tracks as I have the original cd release. Heck, I'm just gonna play the whole thing.

[sansradio]

Yes, thommg, the "Did You..." version on the expanded edition has an extended fade with additional adlibs. The double-vocal-into-single on "And If You..." doesn't really bother me; it kinda gives it an interesting texture.

[thommg]

Yes, thommg, the "Did You..." version on the expanded edition has an extended fade with additional adlibs. The double-vocal-into-single on "And If You..." doesn't really bother me; it kinda gives it an interesting texture.

I see what you mean about the texture. I guess I find it a little off that she has an ad lib in one ear while the voice is coming from both and the move to the single vocal seems, technically, a little sloppy.

[sansradio]

I see what you mean about the texture. I guess I find it a little off that she has an ad lib in one ear while the voice is coming from both and the move to the single vocal seems, technically, a little sloppy.

I can dig it. Either way you slice it, Motown really missed an opportunity by not releasing it as a single; I think it could have been at least an R&B smash. Kick-ass track!

[supremester]

OK, I did and it is a very strong vocal to a good track with mostly acceptable lyrics - not a hit to my ear but perhaps it could have gone top 10 or 15 R&B for certain. Add a strnger intro and more intriguing beginning with a few revamped lyrics [[song and dance/second chance??? c'mon...) and it could easily have hit pop - there are a lot of radio friendly patches there.

Because there are parts of the song that bug me, I dismissed the whole thing and forgot what a technically superb vocal she turns in - ahhhh Miss Ross CAN do it all. TY - I really do appreciate it a lot more.

Listen to And If You See Him 10 times in a row tonight!

[Bluebrock]

OK, I did and it is a very strong vocal to a good track with mostly acceptable lyrics - not a hit to my ear but perhaps it could have gone top 10 or 15 R&B for certain. Add a strnger intro and more intriguing beginning with a few revamped lyrics [[song and dance/second chance??? c'mon...) and it could easily have hit pop - there are a lot of radio friendly patches there.

Because there are parts of the song that bug me, I dismissed the whole thing and forgot what a technically superb vocal she turns in - ahhhh Miss Ross CAN do it all. TY - I really do appreciate it a lot more.

She is well capable of turning in an excellent vocal performance. Love this album!

[Bokiluis]

A lost gem! I confessed to not listening to it the first year it came out. And then I was at a friend's house who was only a casual fan.....and I realized what I had missed.
The lyrics were so sad.
The triology of Ashford & Simpson produced albums are great!

[platters81]

At the time, I thought it was unlikely that the Carrolls' version was the original, but I was never able to trace an earlier one.

it may not have been a motown song....1966 was when A+S joined motown i think but they were having hits just before that [[Ray Charles etc)....and Polydor did put out Edwin Starr Ric-Tic stuff.........is Campbell/Connolly the publisher...maybe thats a lead....it was i think UK collector/dj Tony Rounce who told me about the acetate.

[144man]

it may not have been a motown song....1966 was when A+S joined motown i think but they were having hits just before that [[Ray Charles etc)....and Polydor did put out Edwin Starr Ric-Tic stuff.........is Campbell/Connolly the publisher...maybe thats a lead....it was i think UK collector/dj Tony Rounce who told me about the acetate.

I think James Hamilton said in the Record Mirror that when Valerie Simpson was asked about "Surrender Your Love", she didn't remember writing the song.

[platters81]

I think James Hamilton said in the Record Mirror that when Valerie Simpson was asked about "Surrender Your Love", she didn't remember writing the song.

heres another UK version contemporary with the Carrolls..........interesting that Jo Armstead gets a co-writers credit.....which could point to it being pre motown........https://youtu.be/G1vEb-raKUA

[144man]

heres another UK version contemporary with the Carrolls..........interesting that Jo Armstead gets a co-writers credit.....which could point to it being pre motown........https://youtu.be/G1vEb-raKUA

That's a new one on me. I haven't given up hope of the unknown original turning up one day.

[luke]

I agree. Surrender seemed a bit desperate to recreate ain't no mountain. The lyrics are abysmal.[[give it to me give it to me ...court of love?? Not Diana's class..)..the music has some Motown magic but Diana often drowned out by background singers. Surprised she allowed it per her Chic record response, IMO;taste is individual. Contrast it to Remember Me... Her passion.. , the lyrics. ...sublime. I agree A and S bring out the best in her. I'd love to see what Valerie could do with her now!

[Koach]

I love the original version by the other group than the revamp D.R. did. There was too much orchestration and other stuff that drowned out her voice. I'd love her to do the original now on an album or even live.