Why were arrangements diffferent?

[lockhartgary]

Hello everyone. I have a question about arrangements of songs performed by Motown artists back in the day. For example, the Temptations appear on Ed Sullivan to perform "[[I Know) I'm Losing You", but instead of them singing live to a backing track, they sing to a watered-down arrangement. Was there a practical reason for this? I know that Motown artists were not the only ones to do this, but they stick out in my mind right now.

Gary L.

[sansradio]

The main practical reasons for this were, to my mind: a) The Funks weren't always available and, more importantly, b) even when they were, the songs were arranged so as not to offend Sullivan's largely middle-American, blue-haired audience. It was a stealth crossover strategy that, as we all know, worked like gangbusters. As the Curtis character in Dreamgirls sang, "But it's not as easy as it may sound/You've got to get a smoother sound."

[arr&bee]

I don't know about that[watered down]stuff,one of thier best tv performances,they put as much soul into it as the time allowed.

[Methuselah2]

Didn't every fully live performance on any show--that included the show's own orchestra/band--sound differently arranged from that of the released recording? How could it not. Different musicians. Even if the arrangement attempted that of the recording, it couldn't help sounding different because of the personnel playing. Every house band was 'unto itself'. Just like The Funk Bros. were. I never thought of the Sullivan arrangements as being watered-down; they were just different because of the house musicians. Considering who appeared on the Sullivan show--Elvis, Beatles, Supremes, James Brown, for example, plus opera singers and very seasoned comedians--Sullivan had extremely wide scope, don't 'cha think? And he certainly had a special fondness for The Supremes. Live, however, wasn't always better, as Sullivan's show made clear to some of us. For me, a recorded original backing track along with live singing--think BACK IN MY ARMS AGAINS on Hullabaloo--was what worked best for Motown performers.

[StuBass1]

Interesting topic regarding music for recordings versus backup music for live and televised performances. First of all, the musicians on shows like Ed Sullivan and most of the west coast television ensembles were some of the best musicians on the planet....versatile and accomplished. It's true that ensembles like The Funk Brothers were used to not only playing with each other every day, but also quite familiar with the various artists they were expected to cut tracks for, so they did have a terrific feel for the current session on the project. Keep in mind however, that in the studio, they could cut and re-cut tracks, experimenting and incorporating new ideas into the song, and if it didn't work or proved too complicated, they would stop the recorders and do it again...sometimes going 30 or 40 tries until the producers believed they got it right. On a live [[or eve pre-recorded) television show, the musicians didn't have that luxury. They had maybe one rehearsal with singers or groups they were largely unfamiliar with, performing songs they were often only casually, if at all, familiar with. Keeping those arrangements somewhat "simplified" therefore, made lots of sense. Also, another important fact to consider, is that on original recordings, people listened to those recordings usually in stereophonic on their home entertainment units. Back in those days, most people watched televisions with mono speakers that were about 3 inches in diameter, usually not even as sophisticated as the small speakers in their cars... The visual was just much more important than the audio in those days of television, Therefore, a lot of the musical and instrumental nuances producers and engineers tried to create for the listening experience on the studio recordings were just not a factor for television audio...Bass for example, which was certainly an important element in Motown recordings, was not something television arrangements could focus on, since treble sounds were much more prominent coming through the small less sturdy speakers in most television sets...A little different situation with arrangements for live performances, where often times, the musicians might range in skill level based on the venue, audience size, and popularity of the artist. While sometimes it was the studio or top reputation musicians who accompanied top flight artists on tour, often, it was free lance musicians in each town coming in and performing backup on songs they were not fully nuanced on...Chuck Berry was the best...He would travel with just his guitar and amplifier and hire different musicians in each and every town he travelled to...Of course, most of his song were based on pretty basic chord patterns...

[MIKEW-UK]

My usual expectations with Motown artists in the UK with pick-up local musicians were that it was likely that [[1) the tempo was speeded up [[2)the subtleties lost [[3) the feel was missing and [[4) even if it was a motown music director, they had to deal with what they had to deal with.... musicians not familiar with the material and reading off charts..... I'm probably wrong on all counts

[soulster]

Stu's explanation was a bit over-thought, IMO, but he's right. Chalk it up to the way TV shows were often produced. Not only do they have strict time constraints, but it could be a lot of trouble to play a backing track. If there is a live band, they would play the music, and, remember, those charts were a lot for your average stage band to handle.

And, I think taming down the music for an older White audience played a factor in it.

[westgrandboulevard]

Would there have been a musicians union at the time, which might have opposed the use of backing tracks, at least on some shows?

[Methuselah2]

For Motown's live recorded albums, it was always hard not to notice the changes that usually appeared there. The speeding up of things could be fun and lively but so much was also lost at the same time. In live performances now by Motown artists, there definitely seems to be a concerted effect to make the performances sound closer to that of the original recordings. A vast improvement over many live performances of the past--although seeing the artists perform back in the day was quite a thrill.

[StuBass1]

For Motown's live recorded albums, it was always hard not to notice the changes that usually appeared there. The speeding up of things could be fun and lively but so much was also lost at the same time. In live performances now by Motown artists, there definitely seems to be a concerted effect to make the performances sound closer to that of the original recordings. A vast improvement over many live performances of the past--although seeing the artists perform back in the day was quite a thrill.

Rule #1 in performing live...DON'T DRAG... If a drummer or bassist drags the tempo down, they're liable to get dirty looks from everyone else in the band...One thing I learned way back while performing is that during live performances, up-tempo material is generally done MORE up-tempo during a live performance and slow songs and balllad's usually slower and more articulated live...Harder to find a groove during a live show than when in the studio, and the adrenaline and emotion of the performance audience impacts the tempo of the song...

[Methuselah2]

Sounds right, Stu. The tempo change had to be deliberate and with intent. Interesting that some performers--such as The Supremes--insisted on taking a drummer of choice along with them for club shows.

[BayouMotownMan]

The biggest reason that national tv shows especially disliked using pre-recorded tapes was to avoid embarrassment from a tape break or the machine malfunctioning. As time went on the concentration was more on saving money; it was cheaper to lip-sync or sing to a tape. For local tv shows there usually was no band so tapes were used. Even vinyl was used [[The Jean-Supremes had a very embarrassing situation at a DC disco when Up The Ladder got stuck on the vinyl verse). If I recall, when the Supremes did the Larry Kane Show in Houston 1965, the needle skipped on I Hear A Symphony, but they kept going. Likewise when Martha Reeves and the Vandellas pantomimed to Dancing In The Street on an early Soul Train, it skipped there too.

For stage, sometimes the song suffered by the arrangements [[Where Did Our Love Go) and sometimes they were better than the studio versions [[In And Out Of Love, Reflections). Those Funks just could not be imitated so the result was a desparate over-arranging to try to simulated the sound. I still wince at the live version of Martha's Jimmy Mack...was nowhere near the explosive studio versions

[StuBass1]

Actually, in the variety show days of the 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond...most shows had their own orchestras and powerful musicians union contracts prohibited taped music on those shows. Variety shows on both coasts utilized some of the best musicians in New York and Los Angeles, and their ability to play the stuff was not in question...These were well schooled musicians who could sight read in an instant, and improvise when needed...They were generally symphony trained or studio experienced...Just look at the musicians Johnny Carson used for example [[both in New York and L.A.)...monster jazz players well respected in the industry. The musicians from the Sonny & Cher Variety Hour for example in the 70's went on to form the group Toto and backed Boz Scaggs, and they were and are all outstanding musicians, so it was never a problem of having difficulty following any arrangement the original studio musicians played...just much less time to familiarize themselves with the material. Those days are long gone, with computers largely replacing studio musicians on television shows and at a much lower production cost...musical automation. The only two regular weekly shows currently using real musicians for the background music are, believe it or not...The Simpsons and Family Guy...two cartoons...I know some of the musicians who have worked on those shows, and they're happy to have the work...Former Detroit saxophone virtuoso Terry Herrington played the Lisa Simpson sax stuff as a part of that orchestra, and former Detroit string player, session concertmaster, Detroit and Motown studio player, and longtime family friend, the late Don Palmer was also in The Simpson's studio orchestra...

[lockhartgary]

Wow!! So many interesting replies and observations. I, as you can guess, know next to nothing about charts, chords, etc. And by the way, the Temptations reference was not meant to criticize the performance in any way. I just wanted to point to a performance where the arrangement was different and that performance came to my mind immediately. The watered-down part...bad choice of words. I should have said "reworked".

[Methuselah2]

Gary - It's a wonderful thread. Thank you for doing it.

One issue related to arrangements has always troubled me about live performances: Those ill-fitting, somewhat out of place and from left field song ENDINGS! Yikes! Certainly the slow-fade of the recordings were out of the question for live shows--but what was usually created to end the songs in performances felt so tacked on, almost improvised, even jarring that I often anticipated--and dreaded--what was about to be heard when I attended shows. I'd love to know why the live endings seemed to get such little attention. I assume the endings were created during rehearsals for shows but why the songs' writers weren't involved--another assumption I'm making--is hard to figure. Some endings were ruinous, some acceptable, some somewhere in between. Smokey's THE HUNTER GETS CAPTURED BY THE GAME for The Marvelettes totally avoided the issue by ending without the slow-fade, and that ending is great. I'm not suggesting such endings needed to be created for recordings but something was sorely missing in live performances, at least to my ear.

[Methuselah2]

Here's 2 samples from The Ed Sullivan Show: I think the arrangements are just fine, actually--but the endings? Don't ask.

The Supremes/LOVE IS LIKE AN ITCHING IN MY HEART:

https://youtu.be/RTJh2MLi6hk

Martha & the Vandellas/DANCING IN THE STREET:

https://youtu.be/RGpgkCE41x8

[StuBass1]

Here's 2 samples from The Ed Sullivan Show: I think the arrangements are just fine, actually--but the endings? Don't ask.

The Supremes/LOVE IS LIKE AN ITCHING IN MY HEART:

https://youtu.be/RTJh2MLi6hk

Martha & the Vandellas/DANCING IN THE STREET:

https://youtu.be/RGpgkCE41x8

The one note ending is very common for that type of venue. Many studio recordings had fade out endings which work real well for radio DJ's to take the song out and segue into the next song, promo, or commercial. Fade outs on that venue would leave the audience confused as to when the song is over to begin applause, and the one note puts a definitive end to the song, thus time to move on NOW...It's OVER...That's how most live performances end a song...just an accent to the audience that the song is over, leaving the bandleader or conductor to not have to figure out how long to drag out an ending and getting the musicians to all stop at the same time. There are some circumstances however, where songs can be faded in a live performance, but generally not in a formal setting on a popular variety show like Sullivan...

[jobeterob]

I thought the TCB arrangement of I'm Losing You was better than the single...........well, almost.

[arr&bee]

gary - it's a wonderful thread. Thank you for doing it.

One issue related to arrangements has always troubled me about live performances: Those ill-fitting, somewhat out of place and from left field song endings! Yikes! Certainly the slow-fade of the recordings were out of the question for live shows--but what was usually created to end the songs in performances felt so tacked on, almost improvised, even jarring that i often anticipated--and dreaded--what was about to be heard when i attended shows. I'd love to know why the live endings seemed to get such little attention. I assume the endings were created during rehearsals for shows but why the songs' writers weren't involved--another assumption i'm making--is hard to figure. Some endings were ruinous, some acceptable, some somewhere in between. Smokey's the hunter gets captured by the game for the marvelettes totally avoided the issue by ending without the slow-fade, and that ending is great. I'm not suggesting such endings needed to be created for recordings but something was sorely missing in live performances, at least to my ear.

i hear you meth,having been on afew stages let me say that how to end a song is kinda tricky,but it can be worked out but you gotta work at it.