Remember when?

[soulster]

Benny Hill may have been a racist, or not. But, I doubt that that joke proves anything. That problem that several oriental languages have is the key to making that off-colour joke. And, based on the bulk of material Hill used in his show, I'd guess that it was strictly used for making that joke and NOT-at-all for poking fun at Japanese people or orientals in general.

BTW, it is now insulting to say "oriental". The correct term is "Asian", as not all Asians are from the orient.

[robb_k]

BTW, it is now insulting to say "oriental". The correct term is "Asian", as not all Asians are from the orient.

Maybe "Asians" is a correct term from anyone from Asia, and "Orientals" is a reasonable term for anyone from The Orient [[depending upon how Orient is defined). The Orient would be a subset of Asia, and represent the northeastern and southeastern portions of that continent. I was not trying to disparage or typecast anyone from those areas.

I have no problem with people calling me a North American or a Dutchman, or a Jew.

I also wouldn't mind anyone saying that because the languages I speak don't make some of the sounds I would hear in Clicking languages, or some of the more difficult dipthongs, glottal stops and other choking and gagging sounds made in some languages [[like The Hamitic languages, Danish or Arabic or some Siberian or Amazonian or New Guinean or African [[non-Hamitic languages), that I can't distinguish between two of those sounds. I wouldn't consider that racist, or offensive. I think that a word joke connected with not recognising that difference could be funny, regardless of whether I, or someone else would make that mistake.

I, myself once called a man whose hand I was shaking, "Mr. Hemmerhoids" because I couldn't hear the difference between the Arabic words, Nassour and Nassouhh [[which has a slight "r" sound at the end.

It was very, very funny, in an official meeting with my engineering firm and City and regional water authority officials in Jordan, and I was the but of jokes. I am now an urban legend in Jordan, as the ignorant "Westerner" who made that mistake. It's very funny, regardless of who did it, and the people laughing were not typecasting all Westerners and making fun of all of them as "inferiors".

[soulster]

Maybe "Asians" is a correct term from anyone from Asia, and "Orientals" is a reasonable term for anyone from The Orient [[depending upon how Orient is defined). The Orient would be a subset of Asia, and represent the northeastern and southeastern portions of that continent. I was not trying to disparage or typecast anyone from those areas.

I know you mean no malice. You're a good guy! The insult is manifested in the suggestion by using the term "Oriental" that all Asians are the same. It's like saying all Blacks are the same because their heritage is from Africa. This is one of the reasons I object to the term "African-American".

I also realize that you are of an older generation who grew up with, or are used to older descriptors. There are people who still use "colored" to describe Blacks, and that is considered insulting today. But, things change. Specifically, the use of the descriptor "colored" isn't the insult. It is the failure or refusal to recognize change and realize the desires of a group of people that is the insulting part.

I have no problem with people calling me a North American or a Dutchman, or a Jew.

Well, that's you, but you can;'t assume that no one else is bothered by being classified in such a large monolithic group. In fact, in this case, you have Asian cultures that have despised other Asians for centuries for various reasons.

I also wouldn't mind anyone saying that because the languages I speak don't make some of the sounds I would hear in Clicking languages, or some of the more difficult dipthongs, glottal stops and other choking and gagging sounds made in some languages [[like The Hamitic languages, Danish or Arabic or some Siberian or Amazonian or New Guinean or African [[non-Hamitic languages), that I can't distinguish between two of those sounds. I wouldn't consider that racist, or offensive. I think that a word joke connected with not recognising that difference could be funny, regardless of whether I, or someone else would make that mistake.

I, myself once called a man whose hand I was shaking, "Mr. Hemmerhoids" because I couldn't hear the difference between the Arabic words, Nassour and Nassouhh [[which has a slight "r" sound at the end.

It was very, very funny, in an official meeting with my engineering firm and City and regional water authority officials in Jordan, and I was the but of jokes. I am now an urban legend in Jordan, as the ignorant "Westerner" who made that mistake. It's very funny, regardless of who did it, and the people laughing were not typecasting all Westerners and making fun of all of them as "inferiors".

Again, you can't assume that every group shares your preferences.

This post and angle of discussion can be included in this thread as a 'remember when" people used to be called different things. Is that a stretch? I don't know.

Oh well...carry on!

[robb_k]

I know you mean malice. You're a good guy! The insult is manifested in the suggestion by using the term "Oriental" that all Asians are the same. It's like saying all Blacks are the same because their heritage is from Africa. This is one of the reasons I object to the term "African-American".

I also realize that you are of an older generation who grew up with, or are used to older descriptors. There are people who still use "colored" to describe Blacks, and that is considered insulting today. But, things change. Specifically, the use of the descriptor "colored" isn't the insult. It is the failure or refusal to recognize change and realize the desires of a group of people that is the insulting part.



Well, that's you, but you can;'t assume that no one else is bothered by being classified in such a large monolithic group. In fact, in this case, you have Asian cultures that have despised other Asians for centuries for various reasons.



Again, you can't assume that every group shares your preferences.

This post and angle of discussion can be included in this thread as a 'remember when" people used to be called different things. Is that a stretch? I don't know.

Oh well...carry on!

I understand your point. I am Jewish, raised mainly with concentration camp survivors. I've encountered lots of prejudice. I also lived and worked on The South Side of Chicago, worked in South Los Angeles, and lived in the small Ghetto of San Mateo, CA. I don't like when people stereotype large groups, or say bad things about groups of people. But don't we need terms to describe groups of people?

Or should we just keep away from referring to guesses about people's ancestry?

We're all "cousins", having descended from one
woman from 100,000 years ago and a handful of men from 130,000 years ago. So, were all of "African" origin. Were all descended from green algae. So, when someone calls someone "pond scum" the object of the ridicule shouldn't be offended.

I have no energy invested in people continuing to call others Blacks, Negroes, Colourds, just because I've been around a long time.

When I used the term "oriental", I was merely referring to the look of their body features, which SOMETIMES, but not always also includes the colour of their skin. I NEVER mean it to imply that all those people behave a certain way. I come from a family, half of whom were murdered because the leaders of the murderer society told their people that THESE particular citizens had no right to be citizens of that country, nor had any right to even live, rather than to die and thereby "clean" the place up a bit.

I don't like when people are lumped together to be ridiculed. I suppose I wouldn't like someone saying that all Canadians or all Dutch people are alike. I've always wanted to be judged by my actions and not prejudged. So, I'm sure I agree with all your points.

But, I see that you think that people who innocently lump people together in description are also causing harm, because that encourages people who do that for purposes of disparaging them, to do so.

[soulster]

Or should we just keep away from referring to guesses about people's ancestry?

Today, that is the best way to go, because you cannot always tell.

When I used the term "oriental", I was merely referring to the look of their body features, which SOMETIMES, but not always also includes the colour of their skin.

That's it right there! The features vary amongst Asians. A Korean does not look like a Japanese, and they do not look Filipino, and they do not look Indian. Get my point?

But, I see that you think that people who innocently lump people together in description are also causing harm, because that encourages people who do that for purposes of disparaging them, to do so.

I've outlined the folly of doing so above. In the old days, people lumped people into groups based on superficial features or behaviour. That is stereotyping.

[144man]

BTW, it is now insulting to say "oriental". The correct term is "Asian", as not all Asians are from the orient.

That distinction hasn't reached the UK yet. I doubt if anyone over here would take very kindly to being told "oriental" was an unacceptable term. As good race relations largely depend on the goodwill of the majority, an insistence on political correctness can be counter-productive.