Originally Posted by
antceleb12
You're diving quite deep into hearsay and conjecture here. For instance, "He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed." I have never seen this printed anywhere or spoken by anyone. Berry did not outright tell them he only wanted Diana by even a stretch. In fact, he told them he didn't want them at ALL at that first audition. Not Diana.
I wasn't referring to that in the audition. He told them that in 1963. They agreed. They could have left. They were nobodies - like Barbara Martin - Berry would have let them go. He did not prize their talent like say, Mary Wells. THAT, he'd litigate for. People don't litigate unless there is money or some other prize. What would Berry get if he sued Flo & Mary - food stamps?
Second, in regards to the "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway," argument, you are out of context. Flo and Mary were not happy with several complicated issues, including their underutilization in the group, Diana's constant special treatment, and Berry's growing snubbing of not only Mary and Flo's talents, but everyone else's as well. You say that any other girl would not have turned down a part to sing backup in the most famous group, but then you say that if Mary and Flo didn't like it, they shouldn't have stayed. That's contradictory. Not to mention the girls were only teenagers and, reasonably, had no understanding of the complicated politics of show business. Were they expected to, as high schoolers, see Berry's long-term plan for crossover appeal? The girls wanted to SING. Eventually, Mary and Flo were relegated to "ooh's" and "ahh's," and as girls who worked so hard and for so long on their craft, that's pretty insulting.
I worded my supposition poorly. My point is: so the fuck what? From the projects to superstars - unbelievable success. I'm saying IF Berry had told them, at 16, exactly what their role in the biggest group ever would be "ooo's and ahhh's" - would they take it or walk? I bet they'd take it.
In regards to "leaving" when Diana was chosen in 1963, you cannot possibly believe it was that simple. First, they were under contract. Legally that was not possible. Second, even though Berry told them they wanted Diana on leads, the girls were still quite highly utilized - if not so much on leads, on harmony. Just because you don't like something right off the bat, you don't just leave. The girls worked too hard to do that. That's not the sneaky part. The sneaky part was gradually reducing Mary and Flo's vocal parts, their levels on recordings, and, finally, their involvement altogether on records. Berry straight up told Mary that she couldn't sing, and Flo was once [[at least) told to stand several feet away from the mic. It wasn't the single time of being told that Diana was going to be lead that destroyed the group unity. It was repeated occurrences of conflicts of interest that was rightfully perceived as unfair by not only Mary and Flo, but other acts in Motown, as well.
Berry wasn't sneaking. He did it all right out front. He was Berry Gordy - the chairman. He didn't have to sneak. He didn't care one whit about anything but making money. That includes group unity. That includes his treatment of Raynoma, firing Flo, working Ross down to 95#, and giving The Supremes 5 cents on the dollar of what they earned [[my estimate) Berry Gordy didn't GAF what people thought. He just wanted money and he was totally unapologetic about it. Get in his way, you're out. period. He didn't have to sneak or be devious. He did it all right out in the open. It may not have been what Mary or Flo liked, but he didn't care. He probably assumed being in the #1 group would be enough. He didn't care that Ross was unhappy or stressed out either. Mary made it sound like it was some secret plot that Berry & Diana were crafting. It was no secret. Everyone having to do with The Supremes supported the program because the paid the bills.
Re: Diana trampling others. You can not deny that, at least in the early days, Diana behaved quite wildly, and frankly, poorly, to many in the Motown caravan. It's all documented. Threatening to run over Mary Wells, jumping on others for a can of hairspray, and outright stealing stage patter of other acts. Admittedly, the former two examples lack sustainable credibility, but her selfish behavior back in those days is well documented by many. That's not to say that Diana did not mature, but she burned a lot of bridges in those early days. I love Diana and think she is a great entertainer, but it cannot be argued that she instigated trouble on a number of occasions. Part of that, of course, comes from a lack of maturity, but regardless...
I'm sure Miss Ross was a handful - I'm sure she's still a handful. I'm sure she didn't try to run anyone over. It's a good stoty, tho. I'm sure she was just being a bratty teenager and pretended to. If a girl can catch an earring on national telervision while performing a song and not even look at the earring, she wouldn't have any trouble running down a whole passel of Marvelettes if she wanted to. Miss Ross is nimble. I don't know how awful she was or wasn't. I know how hard she worked and what the results were: history.
Regarding Mary and Flo being non-essential. Fans knew each Supreme by name. Fans definitely had their favorites, and not all of them like Diana. When Berry considered not having Florence appear at the Copa in 1966, Jules Podell INSISTED that each original Supreme appear. When Flo was ousted, fans demanded that she be reinstalled - continuing all the way through Diana's leaving. The sound of the records changed drastically once Flo left or once the Andantes replaced the girls. It's not a coincidence that records didn't sell as well once that unique sound was tampered with. The Supremes as DMF had a unique, inimitable sound. Once the Andantes replaced them, that was destroyed. As good as the Andantes were, they can be heard on countless records by other artists, thereby negating that 'unique' factor. Not to mention that Mary, Flo, and Diana each had their very own, defined personalities. Eventually, especially once Cindy came in, their was no more individual personalities. Quite literally, the name change from "The Supremes" as a solid unit to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" set Diana as the sole personality of the group with Cindy and Mary as merely background singers. They were still successful live, but droves of fans turned away once that group solidarity was destroyed.
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