Supremes Merry Christmas

**sup_fan** · 12-01-2010, 10:43 PM

ok - tis the season!

every year i break out the Sups' Merry Xmas cd. some really strong moments. some not so strong but make me smile

So it's been established that this is one of the first Supremes projects that the Andantes worked on. so which songs do you think they're singing as opposed to M&F? here's my guesses

White Christmas - Andantes
Silver Bells - Andantes
Born of Mary - Andantes
Children's Christmas Song - M&F
Little Drummer Boy - i think both. def sounds like M&F on 3 part harmony verse but not sure about the earlier parts
My Christmas Tree - M&F
Rudolph Red Nose - i think it's M&F
Santa's Coming To Town - Andantes
My Favorite Things - Andantes
Twinkle Twinkle Little Me - M&F
Little Bright Star - Andantes
Joy To the World - Andantes
Oh Holy Night - no backgrounds
The Christmas Song - no backgrounds
Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - think it's M&F
Noel - no backgrounds
Silent Night - Andantes

thoughts?

**floyjoy678** · 12-01-2010, 11:35 PM

the only song to my ears that sound like mary and flo alone are my favorite things. it sounds like mary and flo on santa claus is coming to town doing the middle part with the andantes rounding out the high and low harmony. it also sounds like both mary and flo and the andantes on rudolph but thats basically it to me.

honest man · 12-03-2010, 08:27 AM

does anyone have the 2 versions of LITTLE XMAS TREE [Michael jackson],they could post please, stevie wonder xmas tunes are the best, i think/know.

**randy_russi** · 12-03-2010, 09:22 AM

I think the Spinners were said to have participated on some the Supremes' Christmas recordings. I think one of the
Andantes said this in the book that Vickie Wright wrote about them, Motown From the Background.

**nomis** · 12-04-2010, 02:29 AM

Mary and Flo were hardly there for the xmas sessions= Diana was pissed she had to work alone..but it was something she would soon learn to live with in the next few years..

**jillfoster** · 12-04-2010, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by nomis

Mary and Flo were hardly there for the xmas sessions= Diana was pissed she had to work alone..but it was something she would soon learn to live with in the next few years..

If they weren't, then when did Flo record her leads?

iconicpuff · 12-04-2010, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by randy_russi

I think the Spinners were said to have participated on some the Supremes' Christmas recordings. I think one of the
Andantes said this in the book that Vickie Wright wrote about them, Motown From the Background.

Pat Lewis claims she sang on this, but says her sister Diane was with the Andantes on most of the songs. This was also from 'Motown from the backpart!'

**marv2** · 12-04-2010, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by jillfoster

If they weren't, then when did Flo record her leads?

They [[Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson) were on those sessions. This comes up every year around Christmas here. Just more blather.

iconicpuff · 12-04-2010, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by nomis

Mary and Flo were hardly there for the xmas sessions= Diana was pissed she had to work alone..but it was something she would soon learn to live with in the next few years..

In Mary's book she makes reference to recording 'Noel' which eventually appeared on the expanded ed., but that's it! Can't see any other mention of it.

iconicpuff · 12-04-2010, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

They [[Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson) were on those sessions. This comes up every year around Christmas here. Just more blather.

But 'festive' blather, surely?

**stephanie** · 12-04-2010, 10:48 AM

oh god now the Spinners were on the Christmas album with the Andantes! Flo and Mary were not enough they could have doubletracked them! Flos voice was in fine form at this time she didnt go down to a contralto like she did in the 70s and we have all heard O Holy Night and Silent Night.. Surely Mary and Flo didnt need the Andantes and if they did why the Spinners?

**carlo** · 12-04-2010, 10:55 AM

When I listen to the Christmas album, I don't hear Mary and Flo at all [[except for Flo's lead on "Silent Night"). I'm pretty sure it's almost 100% the Andantes. Someone said above that Mary and Flo are on "Noel", but isn't it pretty much a solo recording? I don't recall hearing background vocals on Noel.

**marv2** · 12-04-2010, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by iconicpuff

But 'festive' blather, surely?

hehehehehehe.........LOL!!!

**bradsupremes** · 12-04-2010, 01:35 PM

Actually the background vocals are really Tina Duress and Linda Lorenz.

**jobeterob** · 12-04-2010, 01:56 PM

Thanks for the list Sup Fan.

I would have been one of the people that would never have imagined anyone other than the Supremes were on the record. I would have thought on some of them they just didn't have Supremes singing much, just Diana, but it was always the Supremes.

I know it's been written that the Supremes aren't on most of the album and what Carlo wrote above is common thinking now.

You also know you are onto something when Marv doesn't want to hear it and gives you LOL or blather and stuff. That generally means it's true but it has somehow not elevated Mary to where Marv needs her to be this morning, truth be damned!

But in any case, the real fun is listening and seeing if you agree with the list. I've not pulled any Christmas CD out yet.

uptight · 12-04-2010, 10:24 PM

Andy broke down each song on the album a few years back on this forum regarding who sings on the tracks. But I cannot find that thread in the forum's archive. It may have been 5 or 6 years ago, though. Basically he said most of the tracks were Diana and The Andantes, some were Diana, Mary & Flo with The Andantes.

**captainjames** · 12-04-2010, 11:10 PM

Its amazing this CD still sells to this day and is probably 90% Diana and The Andantes.

**jillfoster** · 12-05-2010, 12:08 AM

Who gives a crap, I might as well pull out my Christmas CD from the Ray Conniff singers.

RossHolloway · 12-05-2010, 01:22 AM

I love their Chrismas album. Would love to hear any live Christmas songs they may have done.

**jobeterob** · 12-05-2010, 02:54 AM

Randy says in his last book: "Diana, alone, recorded this album. Though Mary and Florence later added vocals to a few of the tracks, most of what is heard in the background is courtesy of session singers."

He then talks about the tracks added later like Flo's Silent Night.

**captainjames** · 12-05-2010, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by jillfoster

Who gives a crap, I might as well pull out my Christmas CD from the Ray Conniff singers.

ha ha ha
Over one million buyers who still play it to ths day.

**stephanie** · 12-05-2010, 10:16 AM

Did the Mike Curb congregation do any christmas albums?

**marv2** · 12-05-2010, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Randy says in his last book: "Diana, alone, recorded this album. Though Mary and Florence later added vocals to a few of the tracks, most of what is heard in the background is courtesy of session singers."

He then talks about the tracks added later like Flo's Silent Night.

One more time, Randy was not there.

iconicpuff · 12-05-2010, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

One more time, Randy was not there.

And neither were Mary and Flo, apparently!

**marv2** · 12-05-2010, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by iconicpuff

And neither were Mary and Flo, apparently!

No, that's where you're wrong. They were there definitely.

**jobeterob** · 12-05-2010, 08:08 PM

Marv............if Randy, Mark Ribowsky or the local troll said Mary was there, you'd quote them as the gospel.

When they say things you don't like, you deny it all and propose to us that you were in the closet spying on them and that you saw Diana shit in Flo's tea cup during the same proceedings, but that Mary accidentally drank it as Diane fingered her.

But the people on this forum that actually know Mary, know that you don't know Mary and that you are no Randy or Mark.

So, we'll have to give you your blather blather lol on this one; sorry bud.

**marv2** · 12-05-2010, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Marv............if Randy, Mark Ribowsky or the local troll said Mary was there, you'd quote them as the gospel.

When they say things you don't like, you deny it all and propose to us that you were in the closet spying on them and that you saw Diana shit in Flo's tea cup during the same proceedings, but that Mary accidentally drank it as Diane fingered her.

But the people on this forum that actually know Mary, know that you don't know Mary and that you are no Randy or Mark.

So, we'll have to give you your blather blather lol on this one; sorry bud.

The only things I dislike are untruths or gross inaccuracies. Other than that, you can believe what you wanna believe. LOL!

smark21 · 12-05-2010, 09:33 PM

I think over the years in Supremes fans circles, certain hardcore Diana Ross partisians have used The Andantes singing background in place of Mary and Flo/Cindy as a weapon to suggest that Mary, Flo and Cindy were not talented and that only Diana mattered and that makes hard core fans of the group and/or Mary, Flo and Cindy very defensive, rightfully so when some argue they could not sing as they could and it's a shame they weren't on those records, but you can't change history.

Of course the real culprit is Motown--let's face it, integrity in marketing the groups was very low on their list of priorities.

**marv2** · 12-05-2010, 09:37 PM

CARLOOOOOOO! Please check your private messages buddy. Thanks

**captainjames** · 12-05-2010, 09:58 PM

Ding Dong Ding Dong Hear the Bells ---Ringing out the first Noel !!!!!
Diana always sounded good on this song.

**jobeterob** · 12-06-2010, 12:11 AM

Excellent post Smark; I think you are totally right.

Just because Mary and Florence are barely on Merry Christmas doesn't mean they aren't talented and didn't play a big part in the Supremes. But the history is there; Mary can admit she doesn't get bookings like Diana, Mary can admit she doesn't have the success or money of Diana but hardcore Mary fans or group fans feel they are giving up something or it is an admission of failure or something. The two have nothing to do with each other.

I always thought it was Mary doing the talking on Someday We'll Be Together; I couldn't believe it when I started to hear that Mary and Cindy didn't sing on most of the singles after Florence left. It took a while and it's just the way things turned out.

Andy and Randy and Mark aren't wrong other than for Marv in these circumstances. The world will go on apparently.

iconicpuff · 12-06-2010, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

No, that's where you're wrong. They were there definitely.

No they weren't!

**carlo** · 12-06-2010, 02:44 PM

No offense, but NONE of you were there when they recorded this album, so to argue over who was or wasn't there is pointless. I go by what I hear. I've been listening to the Andantes for years, so from what I hear, I'm almost certain that it's mostly the Andantes on the Christmas album. I was disappointed when I made this discovery [[after reading J. Randy's book), but I still continue to enjoy the Christmas album. I will always think of it as THE SUPREMES' album. I've been listening to this album every year, for the last 10 or more years, and whenever I listen to it, I still continue to get that "feeling of Christmas". I love it.

**johnjeb** · 12-06-2010, 03:51 PM

I received this album for my 16th birthday, 45 years ago this week.

I still enjoy it, as do my mother and siblings. I now only listen to it once or twice during the Christmas season.

I played it for the first time this morning - the mono version, which I prefer. I burned a mint mono copy of the album [[my original mono was worn) onto CD-R about 10 years ago. There are differences in WC, SB, MCT and TTLM and undecipherable studio chatter by DR during the bridge on SCICTT.

Learning that the backgrounds are The Andantes rather than The Supremes has diminished the album's appeal for me somewhat. Then when I found out that the original color of the dresses was blue or green it gave me a chuckle. Ever since I got the album I have wondered if the girls posed like that or if it is a cut and paste job. I always thought DR's shoulders looked awfully broad. Maybe it's their faces but not their torsos! And so the plot thickens! Next we'll probably find out that all the lead vocals were done by Valerie Simpson.

**captainjames** · 12-06-2010, 05:11 PM

This is truly a wonderful piece of work, I have always love this album during the holiday season. I usually hear "Silver Bells" in department stores while I am out around this time.

uptight · 12-06-2010, 05:57 PM

JohnJeb, I have seen photographic outtakes of the cover. Only the color of the blouses was changed from blue to red in the photo lab. I doubt if the heads were swapped, LOL.

**nomis** · 12-06-2010, 07:18 PM

...i bought the cd last night Ive never listened to this collection before..its better than i expected..but I dont hear Mary or Flo yet..I think the album is the start of the slide into a more show tune direction that was to come in the following years..its what it is - an album meant to be played at one time of the year and thats it...

**johnjeb** · 12-06-2010, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by uptight

JohnJeb, I have seen photographic outtakes of the cover. Only the color of the blouses was changed from blue to red in the photo lab. I doubt if the heads were swapped, LOL.

uptight, I also doubt the heads were swapped, but thanks for your reassurance.

I was just being facetious in my previous post. It seems that as time goes on we're finding out more and more about some of our favorite artists and albums. First there may not be any Supremes in the background vocals, then red isn't the original color of the dresses. So I was jokingly wondering what someone will dig up next.

Of course changing the colors of dresses for The Supremes albums was not new at that time. The green dresses for the 1964 WDOLG cover were changed in 1965 to light blue for the MTS re-issue and yellow for SSCW&P. At least that's how it appears to me.

**captainjames** · 12-06-2010, 08:32 PM

Actually, I am glad some of the truth has finally come to light. For years I argued with a friend about "You Keep me Hanging On". It went on for years that Flo was singing right under Diana on that song and it took HDH to tell us that it was all Diana on lead and guess what ?...................They were there.

**stephanie** · 12-06-2010, 09:26 PM

Dont underestimate the power of Flo and Mary. When they shucked them for the Andantes [[the Composer, and other lower charting singles were to come) Love Child was the only huge hit they had with the Andantes and what mattered were the visuals at that time and Cindy stepping in with the dance steps. Oh I forgot Im Livin in Shame did well but the point is 90 percent of the hits had Mary and Flo and Ed Sullivan with concert appearances is what endeared these women to our hearts. I truly believe that if the Marvelettes had more exposure and no internal drama they would have carried on as well.

**sup_fan** · 12-06-2010, 09:33 PM

guys - i'd argue that i'm about as big of a Supremes fan out there as anyone. my starting this post surely shouldn't have started all of these tired=ass dialogs on here. for god sakes you guys - it really just isn't that serious. get a f***ing life!!

the reason i started this post was to discuss from a HISTORICAL perspective as to which tracks are M&F and which are Andantes. While Randy T might not have been in the studio, he's certainly done more research and had far more access to the studios and vaults than anyone on here, you included Marv. I'm basing this thread on his research that showed the Andantes are on the lp. that and my own Supremely expert ear from listening to the girls [[in whatever grouping) for decades. after a while you should be able to identify someone by their voice. The fact that other singers might be on the lp isn't a slight to F or M and the fact that motown recorded them on ZILLIONS of subsequent songs should inform you that the powers at be at motown didn't find them useless or talentless. as has been stated by many informed sources, Motown was going 24/7. it was about capitalizing on the moment, not sentiment. they wanted an Xmas lp out in time for xmas and so they probably recorded most of the tracks ahead and time and then raced Diana through the leads. It's also well documented that the girls rarely recorded together so as for Flo's leads, those probably wouldn't have been recorded when they were doing the backgrounds anyway. frankly i wonder if her 2 songs were sort of done as an afterthought. i've heard that Diana did a lead version of Silent Night and apparently she really struggles with it. so maybe they thought - hey, let's pull flo in here and see what she can do. Honestly i don't think these are her 2 strongest performances ever waxed. the arrangements are SOOOOO slow and dragging that it impacts her pitch some. but hey, at least we get to hear her some

again, lets drop all the tired baggage.

**jobeterob** · 12-07-2010, 02:06 AM

When I play this CD, which isn't that often, I have never ever thought of who sings on it.......ever! I'm going to find it now and try but I'll probably sing along, likely with the Suprandantes and forget to listen to who might be on it.

More interesting to me is those of us who know the voices; I once told a Universal executive that Diana laughs on the Motown Story during one of Berry's intro's.........and he had no idea, no clue, and didn't really enjoy being told.

Even more interesting to me is how and why an obsessed fan would make these eternal bleatings when all the cards, all the face cards and the Aces are against him; it's like you'll lose a life if Mary and Flo didn't go "ooh and ahh" on My Favourite Things. What causes this in a child? Don't tell me that child ain't sick. Nobody makes a noise like that on purpose!

**marybrewster** · 12-07-2010, 10:25 AM

Now come on kids, I want you to gather around me, and fold [[or at least cross) your legs on the
floor. And we're gonna tell the story about the first Christmas. Alright,
jobeterob, open your book. carlo, nomis, jonc, everybody open your book and we're
gonna sing the song. And when I say "Ding and Dong", I want you to say the same
with me. Alright ready? Aaha now, open your books. Good, let's go, yeah. Now!

RossHolloway · 12-07-2010, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

guys - i'd argue that i'm about as big of a Supremes fan out there as anyone. my starting this post surely shouldn't have started all of these tired=ass dialogs on here. for god sakes you guys - it really just isn't that serious. get a f***ing life!!

the reason i started this post was to discuss from a HISTORICAL perspective as to which tracks are M&F and which are Andantes. While Randy T might not have been in the studio, he's certainly done more research and had far more access to the studios and vaults than anyone on here, you included Marv. I'm basing this thread on his research that showed the Andantes are on the lp. that and my own Supremely expert ear from listening to the girls [[in whatever grouping) for decades. after a while you should be able to identify someone by their voice. The fact that other singers might be on the lp isn't a slight to F or M and the fact that motown recorded them on ZILLIONS of subsequent songs should inform you that the powers at be at motown didn't find them useless or talentless. as has been stated by many informed sources, Motown was going 24/7. it was about capitalizing on the moment, not sentiment. they wanted an Xmas lp out in time for xmas and so they probably recorded most of the tracks ahead and time and then raced Diana through the leads. It's also well documented that the girls rarely recorded together so as for Flo's leads, those probably wouldn't have been recorded when they were doing the backgrounds anyway. frankly i wonder if her 2 songs were sort of done as an afterthought. i've heard that Diana did a lead version of Silent Night and apparently she really struggles with it. so maybe they thought - hey, let's pull flo in here and see what she can do. Honestly i don't think these are her 2 strongest performances ever waxed. the arrangements are SOOOOO slow and dragging that it impacts her pitch some. but hey, at least we get to hear her some

again, lets drop all the tired baggage.

You had to have known that the way you started the thread was going to start this whole negative dialogue. You can not be suprised. Shame on you for starting the thread, this is not your first week on Soulful Detroit.

**sup_fan** · 12-07-2010, 12:42 PM

no shame on your ross for not being able to recognize the difference between diatribe and openly discussing an aspect of the group career. note that i didn't put any commentary on why they did or didn't use M&F. nor did i offer my personal opinions on whether they should or shouldn't have done this. also i didn't ask for people's personal feelings about the decision to use the andantes. it has been know for decades now that M, F and C were not on every release under the name Supremes. for better or worse, it's a fact. so if you read my initial post i wasn't asking people to bleed their hearts on the injustice of using the andantes. rather i opened up a dialog about a relevant topic [[it is christmas time after all) and asked people to identify which tracks they are on. the purpose of these boards is to offer a forum for fans to discuss and share. i WILL NOT refrain from posting a legitimate topic on here discussion just because some people can't participate in an objective manner

**sup_fan** · 12-07-2010, 01:18 PM

on a positive note, the Today Show is using "my favorite things" from this collection for their "theme song" during their holiday steals and deals segment

proving the timelessness of this collection. still regularly hear MFT, rudolph, santa is coming to town, white christmas from this set in stores and malls

**reese** · 12-07-2010, 01:46 PM

Just the other day, I heard LITTLE BRIGHT STAR while shopping for shoes.

**sup_fan** · 12-07-2010, 01:56 PM

wow - don't usually hear the original tracks much

RossHolloway · 12-07-2010, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

no shame on your ross for not being able to recognize the difference between diatribe and openly discussing an aspect of the group career. note that i didn't put any commentary on why they did or didn't use M&F. nor did i offer my personal opinions on whether they should or shouldn't have done this. also i didn't ask for people's personal feelings about the decision to use the andantes. it has been know for decades now that M, F and C were not on every release under the name Supremes. for better or worse, it's a fact. so if you read my initial post i wasn't asking people to bleed their hearts on the injustice of using the andantes. rather i opened up a dialog about a relevant topic [[it is christmas time after all) and asked people to identify which tracks they are on. the purpose of these boards is to offer a forum for fans to discuss and share. i WILL NOT refrain from posting a legitimate topic on here discussion just because some people can't participate in an objective manner

No shame on you for not having any foresight. You should know how these threads always devolve into fighting camps over the Andantes vs. MFC. Perhaps a better discussion would have been why the PRODUCERS may have used the Andantes over Mary and Florence on the record. Were they off recording backgrounds for other songs and unavailable for the Chrismas songs? The Andantes were used for background on all the major girl group records from about '65 onwards. It's a fact, the Andantes sing wonderfully, get over it, move on. You had to have known you were going to open up another nasty can of worms. Why do you suppose the Marvelettes, Martha and The Vandellas or The Four Tops never recording Christmas music during the 60's or Marvin Gaye for that fact?

Or heck even trying to re-create a time line to try and figure out where the group was at during the recording of their Christmas album. Were the tracks laid down in Detroit, LA or NY? Where were the backgroud vocals done? What about the lead vocals? What else were they recording during this time frame? [[August/September 1965). Were they in LA alot doing tv shows? Were they touring alot during this time and not really in Detroit? Were they overseas performing? Did the producers not have enough time to work on both Diana's lead vocals and Mary and Florence background vocals all at the same time? Was it more efficient if they laid everything down and just had Diana do her lead vocals? What takes more time to get right? The lead vocals or the background vocals? It seems like the Christmas album was done-start to finish- in under 3 months. And considering what we know about how Motown [[writers, producers, musicians etc.) worked that's a very short turn around time on a project.