50 US Senators call for Washington Redskins to change its name

[smark21]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/22/sp...tml?ref=sports

[soulster]

Good! The change is long overdue.

But, in my area of the country, every time this issue comes up in the news, a bunch of old white men start wearing Redskins gear.

[Jerry Oz]

Your area is funny like that. It dawned on me yesterday that if Zimmerman was walking down the streets in Arizona, he could be pulled over and asked for a green card that he doesn't possess. And he had the nerve to profile somebody else.

The 21st Century America: Where irony abounds.

[soulster]

Your area is funny like that. It dawned on me yesterday that if Zimmerman was walking down the streets in Arizona, he could be pulled over and asked for a green card that he doesn't possess. And he had the nerve to profile somebody else.

No he wouldn't. First, he looks too clean-cut, and not like a "stereotypical" illegal alien. Second: that would have only happened in Maricopa County, where Sheriff Arpaio has jurisdiction, and he was recently found guilty of violating civil rights of, and profiling Latinos. he claims he will stop. But, he's an 82 year-old racist who keeps getting re-elected. The only reason he won't run for governor is because he would have to be kicked out of his current position due to the law. I guess there are enough people in this state who miss ex-governor Ed Mecham.

[Jerry Oz]

The management of the team has responded in typical manner, stating that "most Americans are in favor of the name" and that the majority of Native Americans are fine with it. They constantly twist poll results to suggest that they say something other than "change the damned name" when the respondents keep saying that they feel contrary to the conclusion.

[soulster]

They probably found one American Indian who doesn't have a problem with the name and decided that he spoke for everyone. That's the way bigots are.

[marv2]

They probably found one American Indian who doesn't have a problem with the name and decided that he spoke for everyone. That's the way bigots are.

That is exactly how it works!

[144man]

Language is a funny thing. It wouldn't surprise me if in a few years time the term "Native American" will itself be considered to be derogatory.

[soulster]

Language is a funny thing. It wouldn't surprise me if in a few years time the term "Native American" will itself be considered to be derogatory.

Well, for a time, "American Indian" was considered offensive. Not anymore.

"Asian" is the accepted term and "Oriental" is offensive, at least in the U.S..

"African-American" is accepted today because it informs of one's ancestral heritage. But, not all "African-Americans" like the name. If one is born in the Americas, there's a 99% chance that one's genealogy reaches farther than just Africa.

"Latino" is the current accepted term because it informs ethnic heritage, not the country. "Hispanic" is rejected by many because it does not indicate cultural heritage, and it was created by Whites, or the government, much like "negro" or "colored" was for Blacks.

And, to top it all off, it is extremely offensive to ignore one's heritage and just call them "American" because it ignores ethnic or cultural identity.

A lot of this may seem a bit confusing to a non-American, as the terms used in your country may differ.

[144man]

I remember "Amerindian" being used to describe the indigenous languages.

[soulster]

I remember "Amerindian" being used to describe the indigenous languages.

I never heard of that one. The one that is commonly used is "Spanglish". It used to be called "broken English".

[roger]

Hmmm ... I've always assumed that "Spanglish" is a Spanish/English hybrid .. basically English but with a few Spanish words or grammatical constructs thrown in, and has nothing to do with "indigenous" languages at all, and that "Spanglish" is spoken by people whose first language was Spanish.

There are quite a few of these "ishes" around .. Singaporean English is sometimes called "Singlish" and the English spoken in India is sometimes called "Hinglish". There is also a reverse version of this .. "Franglais", which is French peppered with English words and expressions and is allegedly spoken by English people in France.

There is an interesting article on "Hinglish" here ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20500312

I went to a local history lecture a couple of weeks back and the lecturer was from Mongolia, before she started she made an apology for her speaking in "Monglish"!!

I have to admit that I've never quite understood the American tendency to describe themselves as this-American or that-American. We have none of this in Britain, though people who don't look "European" are likely to describe themselves [[or be described) as "Black" or "Afro-Caribbean" or "Arab" or "Asian" [[meaning of South Asian appearance) or Chinese, Japanese etc. [[or even "Oriental" if of unspecified East Asian appearance). Over the past centuries we have had huge influxes of people from various parts of the world and if their descendants are born here they will be invariably described as being British, or Welsh/Scottish/English depending upon where they were brought up.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone here who describes themselves as Italian-English or Italian-British, though there are hundreds of thousands of them around .. yet I've been surprised on a couple of occasions by people who seem very "American" suddenly announcing that they are really "Italian", though in Italy they would stand out from a mile!!

Funnily, I used to travel quite regularly to Dublin, Ireland on business and the locals seemed very dismissive of people born in America who described themselves as being "Irish" [[they have the not-too-complimentary term "Plastic Paddy" to describe such people) whereas in Milan, Italy the locals were the opposite and seemed to genuinely accept famous people such as LEONARDO DI-CAPRIO as "Italian" [[even though many of them probably can't speak much Italian).

Australia seems to follow the same rule as Britain, there have been big influxes of people into the country from Southern Europe and the offspring of all these assorted Greeks, Italians, Croats etc. are just regarded as being Australian!!

I have to say I prefer the Australian/British way of doing things but then maybe my perception is clouded by me being English .. nowadays very few Americans seem to describe themselves as English-Americans or Anglo-Americans, though apparently in censuses up to the 1980s the figure was around 40%. It seems to me that if [[for example) an American person whose parentage is from England has offspring with a partner with parentage from some other part of the world then the children always become that-other-part-of-the-world-American. Maybe there is some kind of pecking order at play here ...

Roger

[splanky]

I get most of what you said, Roger but the main difference is that America is a country that
was completely taken away from it's original people and step by step recreated with procedures, protocols and laws that focused squarely on the ethnicity of all of it's inhabiting
citizens and still does so though not as overtly in both small towns and big cities to this day...

[soulster]

Hmmm ... I've always assumed that "Spanglish" is a Spanish/English hybrid .. basically English but with a few Spanish words or grammatical constructs thrown in, and has nothing to do with "indigenous" languages at all, and that "Spanglish" is spoken by people whose first language was Spanish.

You go it right. It is also spoken by many Latinos who grew up in the U.S., but in predominantly Spanish-speaking homes and communities. It's typical in my part of the country.

There are quite a few of these "ishes" around .. Singaporean English is sometimes called "Singlish" and the English spoken in India is sometimes called "Hinglish". There is also a reverse version of this .. "Franglais", which is French peppered with English words and expressions and is allegedly spoken by English people in France.

Wow! You ever wonder who sits around thinking up these words?

I have to admit that I've never quite understood the American tendency to describe themselves as this-American or that-American. We have none of this in Britain, though people who don't look "European" are likely to describe themselves [[or be described) as "Black" or "Afro-Caribbean" or "Arab" or "Asian" [[meaning of South Asian appearance) or Chinese, Japanese etc. [[or even "Oriental" if of unspecified East Asian appearance).

It's less about physical appearances that the need for people to express their cultural and ethnic identification. Hatred and discrimination of one group against another is how America has always been, which leads groups to develop a pride of identity. The need is to stick together in the face of adversity. It isn't just Blacks, but Irish, Italians, Germans, Chinese...anyone who has come, or were kidnapped and forced to this country. In order to prevent losing one's culture while trying to assimilate into America, they attach "American" to it. Of course, there are people who don't really want to acknowledge cultural differences, so they are hostile to the practice. What's silly about identity hyphenation is that interbreeding has "diluted" the gene pool. Unless you are a fairly recent immigrant, or have gone through extraordinary lengths to ensure racial or ethnic purity, you are not pure anything.

Over the past centuries we have had huge influxes of people from various parts of the world and if their descendants are born here they will be invariably described as being British, or Welsh/Scottish/English depending upon where they were brought up.

America has a lot of growing up to do. You might say that we are collectively in an arrested state of adolescence.

Funnily, I used to travel quite regularly to Dublin, Ireland on business and the locals seemed very dismissive of people born in America who described themselves as being "Irish" [[they have the not-too-complimentary term "Plastic Paddy" to describe such people) whereas in Milan, Italy the locals were the opposite and seemed to genuinely accept famous people such as LEONARDO DI-CAPRIO as "Italian" [[even though many of them probably can't speak much Italian).

If I go to an African nation, not everyone would accept me as one of their own. We Black Americans are a different breed far removed from Africa. Somehow, even the bigots understand this. Many would respect an African nationalist, or even a Caribbean nationalist over a Black American.

Australia seems to follow the same rule as Britain, there have been big influxes of people into the country from Southern Europe and the offspring of all these assorted Greeks, Italians, Croats etc. are just regarded as being Australian!!

nowadays very few Americans seem to describe themselves as English-Americans or Anglo-Americans, though apparently in censuses up to the 1980s the figure was around 40%. It seems to me that if [[for example) an American person whose parentage is from England has offspring with a partner with parentage from some other part of the world then the children always become that-other-part-of-the-world-American. Maybe there is some kind of pecking order at play here ...

It's called racism, that "one-drop" rule that Whites follow. It you ain't pure white, you ain't White. That's the mentality of a LOT of people in America, and it's very scientifically wrong. But, there people from all races and ethnicities in America that play the game too. It's wrong to dilute the "purity" of the race. Funny thing, again, is that hardly anyone one is "pure" anything. I still laugh at the white supremacist in North Dakota who found out that he was part Black on TV!

[soulster]

I get most of what you said, Roger but the main difference is that America is a country that
was completely taken away from it's original people and step by step recreated with procedures, protocols and laws that focused squarely on the ethnicity of all of it's inhabiting
citizens and still does so though not as overtly in both small towns and big cities to this day...

There has been a lot of debate and discovery of exactly who was here first, or if there was anyone here first. A lot of current thinking says that people from all parts of the world had settled on the Americas. It wasn't just the Indians. There is a lot of history that was either not recorded or passed down.

[edafan]

I have studied U. S. history. I find it inappropriate that this band of senators finds is bad to name a team, where their previous senators sent U.S. cavalry to push Indians off their land,
and if they didn't go, to use martial force. I e kill them. But today we are in the political correct generation. It's O K that my great great great grand father killed all your people, but I cannot use a word like redskin. Senators, read your history books.

U S forces did some bad things. Look back, we had no right to Spain and Mexico's land, but we sacrificed those people at the Alamo, so we could take their land.


Oh now in this Facebook generation, I must call every sports team by a politically correct name.

edafan

[smark21]

I have studied U. S. history. I find it inappropriate that this band of senators finds is bad to name a team, where their previous senators sent U.S. cavalry to push Indians off their land,
and if they didn't go, to use martial force. I e kill them. But today we are in the political correct generation. It's O K that my great great great grand father killed all your people, but I cannot use a word like redskin. Senators, read your history books.

U S forces did some bad things. Look back, we had no right to Spain and Mexico's land, but we sacrificed those people at the Alamo, so we could take their land.


Oh now in this Facebook generation, I must call every sports team by a politically correct name.

edafan

Using your brilliant logic, then because Senators in the past supported slavery then their successors had no business passing Civil Rights laws. Also, I'm assuming if there were a team called, let's say, the New York Negroes, you would have no problems if they retain such a name in this day and age? Attitudes evolve over time, and things that were considered of the norm in the past can be regarded as outmoded and offensive relics in the present. History isn't static and if you think so, then despite your study of history you either scored a low grade or your instructor and/or curriculum was incompetent.

[soulster]

I have studied U. S. history. I find it inappropriate that this band of senators finds is bad to name a team, where their previous senators sent U.S. cavalry to push Indians off their land,
and if they didn't go, to use martial force. I e kill them. But today we are in the political correct generation. It's O K that my great great great grand father killed all your people, but I cannot use a word like redskin. Senators, read your history books.

U S forces did some bad things. Look back, we had no right to Spain and Mexico's land, but we sacrificed those people at the Alamo, so we could take their land.


Oh now in this Facebook generation, I must call every sports team by a politically correct name.

edafan

Consider that a lot of us have evolved since the U.S. government did wrong to the American Indians. Give them that much, at least. OK? 30 years ago, the things famous and rich people, and public officials, said about non-whites and women would go ignored. Now, what they say and do is usually condemned, and people lose their gigs over it.

[edafan]

Have you ever seen the great great movie

Little Big Man with Dustin Hoffman ?

[Jerry Oz]

I'll do you better, edafan. Watch Ken Burns' documentary "The West". You'll find out that it was legal to shoot and kill them in California. They paid tribes bounties for - wait for it - collecting "redskins". They'd take scalps from rival tribes and exchange them for loot from the US government. The army wiped out entire nations of people. The government uprooted the Cherokee from North Carolina and put them on a train to Kansas. Many died in the process. I'm part Cherokee, by the way. The country's treatment of my people - all of them - has rivaled the worse of what's going on in any corner of the globe today.

They took the plains from them and put them on reservations that were sometimes thousands of miles away. They defiled holy land all thanks to the divine providence afforded by better arms and greater numbers. The buffalo were wiped out for sport.

With that said, how in the world do you think that a football team's name should not be changed because of the sins of our past? Once the light is turned on, there's an obligation to make the future brighter than the past and to hold onto this derogatory name is ridiculous. I find it offensive that they didn't use the name of a nation like Seminole or Illini, which is more reverential. They chose to call it a name that is clearly inappropriate. And it's ridiculous to pretend that it is okay to maintain the status quo because a handful of people who couldn't care less about the issue don't think the name should be changed.

[edafan]

I'll do you better, edafan. Watch Ken Burns' documentary "The West". You'll find out that it was legal to shoot and kill them in California. They paid tribes bounties for - wait for it - collecting "redskins". They'd take scalps from rival tribes and exchange them for loot from the US government. The army wiped out entire nations of people. The government uprooted the Cherokee from North Carolina and put them on a train to Kansas. Many died in the process. I'm part Cherokee, by the way. The country's treatment of my people - all of them - has rivaled the worse of what's going on in any corner of the globe today.

They took the plains from them and put them on reservations that were sometimes thousands of miles away. They defiled holy land all thanks to the divine providence afforded by better arms and greater numbers. The buffalo were wiped out for sport.

With that said, how in the world do you think that a football team's name should not be changed because of the sins of our past? Once the light is turned on, there's an obligation to make the future brighter than the past and to hold onto this derogatory name is ridiculous. I find it offensive that they didn't use the name of a nation like Seminole or Illini, which is more reverential. They chose to call it a name that is clearly inappropriate. And it's ridiculous to pretend that it is okay to maintain the status quo because a handful of people who couldn't care less about the issue don't think the name should be changed.

well said Jerry

[arr&bee]

The native americans don't have enought political or monitary clout to make the u.s.government listen to them,daniel snyder went to some reservations with trinkets and blankets and thought he was doing a public service...change the name.

[soulster]

The native americans don't have enought political or monitary clout to make the u.s.government listen to them,daniel snyder went to some reservations with trinkets and blankets and thought he was doing a public service...change the name.

They can take some of that casino money and buy a few congressmen...

[tamla617]

The New york Negroes? What does the New York Jets mean? Is it the gas turbine engine or the black rock dug out the ground? I never understood the name. 1959 they were named. About the time Boeing 707 entered Airline service and the BOAC Comets had started services into New York in '58.Is that the reason?

As for the Washington Redskins name change.Where does it end. If we changed every little thing the "block out history" we'd have nothing to say. We have people over here going nuts over the word Black. Then we have the music awards MOBO ,thats music of black origin, I can just imagine the racket if somebody wanted a "music of white origin"wtf? Its all b8ll8cks!
These things can cause racial tension because people think its the ethnic group thats whinging,when its the sandle wearing,Guardian reader [[and US equivelent) and the BBC poking their collective noses in.

[Jerry Oz]

This whole thing is sad. They're going to change the name eventually, so they should bite the bullet and do it sooner than later. It pisses me off when they suggest that "most Americans" don't find the name offensive. If "most Americans" are okay with some of the derogatory names for Blacks, Poles, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, gays, and Asians, does it mean that people from those groups need to get over it and let it go? The worse part of all of it is the NFL commissioner perpetrating that there's nothing wrong. As it was said before, it comes down to money and when there's enough support to embarrass the sponsors, the team will change its name.

[tamla617]

You're right Jerry. Where will it end though? I dont think for one minute most people think derogatory names for different races, nationality , Orientation etc. I do know you'll meet these types in greater numbers/percentages in Asia,Africa,Middle East,Eastern Europe . India's/Saudi caste system for example. The Rape and hanging of teenage girls in India is the result of their Caste system. In Saudi we were no higher than 4th or 5th from topof the saudi caste hit parade. Have a minor shunt in a car there and who ever is the highest caste wins, the lower caste goes to jail/court/pays the fine. I couldn't wait to get out the wierd world of Saudi.
I and some friends got kicked out of a club in Hong Kong for repeatedly buying or trying to buy a drink for the Chinese/local barman. "Please don't buy a drink for him" 2nd time. "the barmen isn't allowed gifts from customers" 3rd time "don't give him tips,its not allowed" 4th and final "I told you once yer pommie bastard,now get out and don't come back" By this time we were in wind up mode, i couldn't stop laughing at the Aussie nut case giving me grief. We knew when this guy finished and went back and gave him a pile of Hong Kong Dollars.Now that was institutionalised racism. I absolutly will not put up with it.Or bad spelling!

[tamla617]

I've just re read some previous posts. I find it a bit wierd. Red Skins, Red Indians are out but in the middle of an argument somebody actually typed American Indians,. They aint Indians [[to be correct) Native Americans is what they're supposed to be called, forget the tribe they came from. So nobody has the correct name its a collective thats as bad as the names you're trying to get rid of.The people have dreamed the word up. The "original Americans"Which they aint,the people that were there before the Europeans came, haven't been asked.Where does it end up to be totally correct?While we're at it, the lyrics of Ball of confusion contain the words Indian reservation, what about that?Columbus[[Real name Cristoforo Colombo) thought he 'd found India in 1492.Its where the name came from. A Genoan [[no, Italy didn't exist then) paid by Spain to find a western route to Asia.


Colombo! Brilliant....Scuse me sir,sir? Say, are you an indian? My wife thinks you're terrific. She'll be thrilled to know I met a real Indian. Aint that sumthin'?

[splanky]

While we're at it, the lyrics of Ball of confusion contain the words Indian reservation, what about that?

Tamla, Ball of Confusion came out in 1971 or 72. The term "Native American " didn't really come into popular use until more than ten years after that. Colombus calling these groups
of people "Indians" is a mistake that became common terminology for 500 years so I never
expected it to disappear overnight just as racism won't . In view of all that's wrong in the world I personally find it hard to get all upset about a baseball team's name but I do agree
with those that think it would be better if they changed it...BTW, there is no need to use
terms like "music of white origin" especially since other terms like "European Classical Music" already identify the ethnicity...

[tamla617]

Splank
I know how old the lyric is. Thats not the point. Its wrong now, not my rules BTW.How many songs are banned now because of changing attitudes. A DJ over here played "The Sun has got it's hat on" the other week and was sacked! There is one word in there it's sang once only,I didn't know it was there either. The DJ was re instated but by this time he'd had enough and isn't going back. The Noddy books got re drawn and a character changed, several films not shown any more and all because attitudes have changed.
The description Music of White Origin was a counter to the over touchy people over here. MOBO is fine with me ,thats obvious as its 99.9% of the stuff I listen to and own. If that term was used White origin [[only) how long before it hit the fan.
So I wasn't even talking about Classical or any particular style of music. What would be the point of an award ceremony with all the winners unable to pick up the same award year on year because they're all dead so the same track wins? You know eactly what I was talking about. You cant' have a white only award system[[by use of the word White) the BBC etc. would go into meltdown but there is MOBO, its not hard.

[ralpht]

I didn't intend on weighing in on this conversation, but you guys have a good one going. Here are my thoughts:
Why just pick on the Washington Redskins? What about the Cleveland Indians with that silly grinning cartoon brave as their logo? Or the Atlanta Braves fans that do that silly [[and possibly insulting?) tomahawk chop and chant a stereotypical song when their team is up to something?

I think the Redskin's team owner should change the name to the Washington Americans and keep the dignified logo of a brave that now exists.

My two cents

[splanky]

tamla, I can think quite a few songs, ones I have and ones I don't for one reason or another
that have lyrics many would deem offensive that nevertheless became popular hits. I don't know what goes on over there on your side of the pond but I can't think of many things being
banned here for quite some years now. In fact I only remember rapper's works being banned
and that was back in the 90's, nowadays everybody just basically says whatever they they
just get a sticker on their cd release.
Anyway, in a world still largely owned and controlled by people who predominately
are white any white only affair would be a bit redundant, wouldn't it? With the possible
exceptions of things like the Moors ruling Spain for a time, no people of color, whether they
were from Kenya, Mali, Jamaica,The Phillipines, Cuba, China or Martinique ever colonized
any country in Europe and killed off or enslaved their people...

[Jerry Oz]

Ralph is right about the Cleveland Indians and the Atlanta Braves. I've referred to"Chief Wahoo" [[the Indians' mascot) as Little Red Sambo for years because it's terribly offensive. Look at how the fans of these teams dress and tell me that you find any reason to believe there is honor our respect being given to the Native American people. Can you imagine the Boston Celtics being nicknamed the Boston Micks and someone suggesting that it was out of love for the Irish people? Stop the madness.

[edafan]

Jerry Ralph Splanky

team names are just that

team names

I felt that when cable and internet started, that they would have to find nonsense to fill up the time. Now the nonsense is filtering into every part of life.

[tamla617]

Splanky
There was slavery in Europe 100's of years before America was thought of. Slavery is 10's of 1000 years old and not something that happened after 1492. Europe was enough of a problem,tribe wise, fat chance outsiders having a go. As for people of colour.. Try Gengis Khan. It doesn't have to be a colour thing. The Romans [[Etruscans) Vikings, Saxons, Huns, Hannibal, Hittites, Normans [[ex Vikings) You've just pick one of my favourite subjects.
Its bed time! speak tomorrow! Cheers

[soulster]

I didn't intend on weighing in on this conversation, but you guys have a good one going. Here are my thoughts:
Why just pick on the Washington Redskins? What about the Cleveland Indians with that silly grinning cartoon brave as their logo? Or the Atlanta Braves fans that do that silly [[and possibly insulting?) tomahawk chop and chant a stereotypical song when their team is up to something?

I think the Redskin's team owner should change the name to the Washington Americans and keep the dignified logo of a brave that now exists.

My two cents

Hi Ralph,

The insulting symbols you mentioned were all attacked as being offensive or racist at one point or another. I remember seeing it in the news in fairly recent years.

But I think the fight against changing is more about the ongoing culture war than at actual name-change. You have a segment of society, mainly middle-age and older White Americans who see the world they knew slipping away and are trying to fight for that cultural dominance. Not everyone, of course, but that tea-party association came from somewhere.

BTW, Instead of talking about two or more subjects in the same thread, people on this forum really should start separate threads. Threads would gain more focus, and there would be more participation in them.

[soulster]

Splank
I know how old the lyric is. Thats not the point. Its wrong now, not my rules BTW.How many songs are banned now because of changing attitudes. A DJ over here played "The Sun has got it's hat on" the other week and was sacked! There is one word in there it's sang once only,I didn't know it was there either. The DJ was re instated but by this time he'd had enough and isn't going back. The Noddy books got re drawn and a character changed, several films not shown any more and all because attitudes have changed.
The description Music of White Origin was a counter to the over touchy people over here. MOBO is fine with me ,thats obvious as its 99.9% of the stuff I listen to and own. If that term was used White origin [[only) how long before it hit the fan.
So I wasn't even talking about Classical or any particular style of music. What would be the point of an award ceremony with all the winners unable to pick up the same award year on year because they're all dead so the same track wins? You know eactly what I was talking about. You cant' have a white only award system[[by use of the word White) the BBC etc. would go into meltdown but there is MOBO, its not hard.

A similar controversy came about here in the U.S. back in the 80s.

A few years after Billboard changed the category to "Black Singles" and "Black Albums" in the 70s, there was an eventual outcry from many Whites feeling it was discriminatory, especially in light of the several White artists like Teena Marie and Bobby Caldwell having hit product in that category. So, the description went back to "R&B", as if all people who like, listen to, or create R&B is from the city, which is actually offensive too, but no one is complaining about that one.

As you know, we have no government-run media here, so no one gets banned by government. Individual companies or stations can do that. From what I understand, songs are still more commonly banned in the south/bible-belt than anywhere else in the country.

[soulster]

Jerry Ralph Splanky

team names are just that

team names

I felt that when cable and internet started, that they would have to find nonsense to fill up the time. Now the nonsense is filtering into every part of life.

So, you think it's OK to continue to offend people just because "that's the way its always been"??? Why not go back to using "pickaninny", "wetback", "greaser", "retard", and "fag"? Yeah! There ya go!

Instead of clinging to the past and whining that some imagined government force us pushing us into some perceived "political correctness", why don't you evolve?

[soulster]

Splanky
There was slavery in Europe 100's of years before America was thought of. Slavery is 10's of 1000 years old and not something that happened after 1492. Europe was enough of a problem,tribe wise, fat chance outsiders having a go. As for people of colour.. Try Gengis Khan. It doesn't have to be a colour thing. The Romans [[Etruscans) Vikings, Saxons, Huns, Hannibal, Hittites, Normans [[ex Vikings) You've just pick one of my favourite subjects.
Its bed time! speak tomorrow! Cheers

Oh yeah, the "everyone has pain" runaround. Well, you know what? You're right. Pretty much every race, religion, or ethnicity has been enslaved in this world at one time or another, but that shouldn't be used to minimize or marginalize anyone's pain or history, or the adverse effects of it.

[soulster]

Tamla, Ball of Confusion came out in 1971 or 72.

The song came out in 1970

[splanky]

The song came out in 1970

Hey, guess what,soulster?...Like a lot of folks here, I'm getting old so sometimes my
memory fails me but if you need to focus on an exact year maybe you missed my point.
I do kind of agree with you on the separate thread thing though. There's a lot of serious
discussion being overlooked because it's stashed in several of the other threads in the
Clubhouse under what appear to be trivial or dated titles like Let It Snow..It's June already,
dang....

[soulster]

Hey, guess what,soulster?...Like a lot of folks here, I'm getting old so sometimes my
memory fails me but if you need to focus on an exact year maybe you missed my point.

No, I didn't miss your point. That's just how I am.

I do kind of agree with you on the separate thread thing though. There's a lot of serious
discussion being overlooked because it's stashed in several of the other threads in the
Clubhouse under what appear to be trivial or dated titles like Let It Snow..It's June already,
dang....

Is it that people are too lazy to start new threads?