What if No Matter What Sign You Are was a hit?

[sup_fan]

thought this was an interesting idea. not so much in regards to the Supremes post Diana but of Diana solo. word is that Someday was intended to be her first solo single. if it was and if it had been a hit, what would her initial lp been? would she still have worked with A&S? These Things Will Keep Me Loving You was on the first lp but would they have gone in a different direction?

let the discussion begin!

[motony]

"no Matter What Sign You Are" was a hit, jus not as big as most Supreme records of the 60's after WDOLG. It got up to #31 on the Hot 100.

[BayouMotownMan]

I feel Gordy still would have waited til the end of the year to pull her out the group. It was no coincidence that Someday We'll Be Together was the last No. 1 hit of the 1960s.

[sup_fan]

so let's say No Matter had gone top 10 or something like that. they still would have stayed together? when did they schedule the farewell bookings in Vegas?

[smark21]

IF No Matter, instead of Someday We'll be Together, had been a big hit and the last one for DRATS before Ross went solo, then I guess today Supremes fans would be obsessed with astrology and the zodiac rather than a reunion.

[daviddh]

their contract was active until jan 70 so they would have stayed together. I liked the song but I felt it was a 2 years late. had this been released in 1967 It may have gone top ten

[Roberta75]

IF No Matter, instead of Someday We'll be Together, had been a big hit and the last one for DRATS before Ross went solo, then I guess today Supremes fans would be obsessed with astrology and the zodiac rather than a reunion.

lol now thats real funny smark31.

Roberta

[jobeterob]

I don't think it would have made any difference because for all purposes other than the name, the group ended in the fall of 1967.

[BayouMotownMan]

That may be true in terms of quality recordings Jobete but in reality Diana Ross and the Supremes were still white-hot and in demand all over the world in those last couple years.

[marybrewster]

"No Matter What Sign You Are" was released in May, 1969.

If it had been a "hit", weren't there still dates between May and the fall that DRATS had to fulfill? Perhaps there would have been a "farewell tour" rather than a "farewell performance".

"Someday We'll Be Togther" was released in October, 1969. It was when it looked like it was going to "hit" that it was announced that Diana was going solo. Even so, when DRATS were on tour, how far ahead were they booked? Is it possible that when October rolled around, and Motown decided to split Diana and the Supremes, were there dates into 1970 that were already booked? If you look at artists today, they're already selling concert tickets for the summer of 2014. If that's the case, who filled those dates? Diana? The Jean-lead Supremes?

And as far as Diana "leaving", if the argument is that the Andantes were on all of the latter DRATS singles [["Shame", "No Matter What Sign", "Composer"), weren't the Andantes on a lot of Diana's first singles [["Reach Out", "Mountain", "Remember Me")? So if the sound on vinyl was the same, when DID Diana "leave" the Supremes?

[BayouMotownMan]

Going into the fall of 1969, Motown cut down on the dates performed by Diana and the Supremes. Diana was in meetings and recording sessions to launch her solo career. Jean was in meetings, rehearsals and recording sessions with Mary and Cindy regarding her assuming the role Diana left behind.

The official announcement was made in November following the GIT special. It came as no surprise.

[midnightman]

I find it funny Berry wrote and produced this. You think he would push for it harder if he felt the song had hit potential. The song's funk influence didn't quite endear it to pop audiences and R&B audiences didn't know where to go with it.

[marybrewster]

[BayouMotownMan]

Gordy yanked The Composer which not one of my favorite, was sailing up the charts to become at least a Top 20 hit. NMWSYA, Gordy was adamant about it because of the success of Aquarius by the 5th Dimension. The song was promoted, but radio programmers and listeners just didn't like it

[bradsupremes]

"The Composer" was an awful choice for a single. One of their worst singles. Clearly the song was released as a single due to politics [[Smokey) and not because it had hit potential. "No Matter What Sign You Are" had an awesome track, but those lyrics...not so much. I think if the song had different lyrics it would have done better on the charts.

[marv2]

Going into the fall of 1969, Motown cut down on the dates performed by Diana and the Supremes. Diana was in meetings and recording sessions to launch her solo career. Jean was in meetings, rehearsals and recording sessions with Mary and Cindy regarding her assuming the role Diana left behind.

The official announcement was made in November following the GIT special. It came as no surprise.

The announcement was made in Detroit [[as well as Toledo, Windsor, Cleveland,etc) in October 1969. The official announcement came out of Motown on November 3, 1969. "GIT on Broadway" aired on November 12, 1969!

[Sotosound]

"No Matter What Sign You Are" barely scraped into the UK Top 40 but then it got included on the hugely successful Motown Chartbusters Volume 3 compilation released in late 1969.

This ended up as a must-have album for many, many people, with the most distinctive of album covers and a rich selection of the best of Motown up to that point.

As a result, the track probably became far better known in the UK than its chart placing would suggest.

I bet that Russell Grant has a copy of Motown Chartbusters Volume 3 in his collection.

[thommg]

"The Composer" was an awful choice for a single. One of their worst singles. Clearly the song was released as a single due to politics [[Smokey) and not because it had hit potential. "No Matter What Sign You Are" had an awesome track, but those lyrics...not so much. I think if the song had different lyrics it would have done better on the charts.

I never thought The Composer was a bad song. And I have no idea how anyone picked a single for release but, while politics might have entered into the choice, it seems to me that The Composer was chosen to get The Supremes back into an easy, more love oriented track than the previous Love Child and I'm Living In Shame. After two socially oriented songs, perhaps they were banking on the easier grooves to get people buying the track.

[bradsupremes]

I never thought The Composer was a bad song. And I have no idea how anyone picked a single for release but, while politics might have entered into the choice, it seems to me that The Composer was chosen to get The Supremes back into an easy, more love oriented track than the previous Love Child and I'm Living In Shame. After two socially oriented songs, perhaps they were banking on the easier grooves to get people buying the track.

If they wanted to get the Supremes back on a love oriented track then I think "I'll Set You Free" or "You Gave Me Love" would have fared better as singles. Both are far superior tracks compared to "The Composer."

[Sotosound]

I really like "The Composer", but just as a great track to listen to. It's subtle and it can stand a lot of listens.

It's got a bright feel to it, with bright strings and a bright glockenspiel and bright vocals.

I wouldn't label it as a smash, however, as it lacks a stunning intro or an instantly memorable verse and chorus.

I also prefer the stereo mix. The first time that I heard the track was when I purchased a mono copy of 16 Big Hits Volume 8 for which it was the lead track and was featured in a fold-down of the stereo mix.

The mono mix is also sped up, and if something has to be sped up to sell then there’s a problem with it from a commercial perspective. N’est-ce pas? Speeding that track up ruins it for me.

[thommg]

If they wanted to get the Supremes back on a love oriented track then I think "I'll Set You Free" or "You Gave Me Love" would have fared better as singles. Both are far superior tracks compared to "The Composer."

I wouldn't disagree with you, Brad.

[marv2]

"The Composer" was an awful choice for a single. One of their worst singles. Clearly the song was released as a single due to politics [[Smokey) and not because it had hit potential. "No Matter What Sign You Are" had an awesome track, but those lyrics...not so much. I think if the song had different lyrics it would have done better on the charts.

BAM! You're right on the money there. That is exactly what happened!

I also would like to add something that many may be overlooking and that is the more a record sold, the higher the royalties the writer received. If "the Composer" sold in huge amounts, then Smokey Robinson stood to gain financially. Same thing with "No Matter What Sign You Are", Berry Gordy would have received a substanial amount of royalties being the writer of that song. Sooooooooo............

[midnightman]

"The Composer" was an awful choice for a single. One of their worst singles. Clearly the song was released as a single due to politics [[Smokey) and not because it had hit potential. "No Matter What Sign You Are" had an awesome track, but those lyrics...not so much. I think if the song had different lyrics it would have done better on the charts.

I think we know why certain songs didn't become hits, songs like "No Matter What Sign" and "The Composer" were just songs Berry and Smoke could write in their sleep or write while nesting on their pillows. After HDH left, they really didn't know what to do with the Supremes. It's telling they only struck twice in the post HDH years. But also Motown had pushed them to be show-business performers so much that the music became almost secondary at that point.

[midnightman]

Gordy yanked The Composer which not one of my favorite, was sailing up the charts to become at least a Top 20 hit. NMWSYA, Gordy was adamant about it because of the success of Aquarius by the 5th Dimension. The song was promoted, but radio programmers and listeners just didn't like it

I had wondered if the reason people didn't like No Matter What Sign was because of its Fifth Dimension swagger jacking. Berry wasn't really thinking at all lol if the Composer was more popular then he should've let it be. I could only imagine he and Smoke having a big argument about it.

[Jimi LaLumia]

let's just say that if "Sign" had been recorded by anyone else other than The Supremes, it would have probably peaked at #95 or thereabouts; same with DE 'Composer"...

[midnightman]

let's just say that if "Sign" had been recorded by anyone else other than The Supremes, it would have probably peaked at #95 or thereabouts; same with DE 'Composer"...

True. It only rose as high as it did because of who sung on it. Doubt Martha Reeves would've had a hit with it.

[luke]

Its hard to believe with Berry wanting a smash on the Supremes that hed release what he thought was a lousy single. I think they hoped the Composer would be another I Hear A Symphony. They were trying everything to get a hit on the Supremes at that point.

[BayouMotownMan]

The Fifth Dimension had the No. 1 song of 1969 with Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In. By this time Gordy was getting desparate in terms of original material not working on the newly proclaimed Diana Ross and the Supremes. So he hacked the Dimension's hit.

[captainjames]

I just don't think Berry and / or Smokey were good writers for The Supremes and that's just my take on it.

[midnightman]

I just don't think Berry and / or Smokey were good writers for The Supremes and that's just my take on it.

History does prove they weren't real good for the Supremes. I didn't really care for their version of "After All" or their Miracles covers. The only Smokey productions I liked via the Supremes were from the "Floy Joy" period but even there some of the songs sounded too much like HDH so they didn't gel as well with Smokey's songs like the Marvelettes, Temptations and Mary Wells had.

[stephanie]

All they had to do was put out How Long Has that Evening Train been gone and you would have had a hit!

[marv2]

All they had to do was put out How Long Has that Evening Train been gone and you would have had a hit!

I agree with that.......

[BayouMotownMan]

There were several possible hits off of Love Child. Sunny Boy and Honey Bee got FM airplay

[supremester]

I don't believe for a second that Berry would release a bad single on DR&TS just to boost royalties for himself or Smokey. He stood to gain a lot more from another #1 on his group than a songwriting royalty on one side of a 45. It's not like they had anything better than The Composer - weak as it was. We know the 1969 inventory: John Henry? Name Of This Game? Western Union Man?
On paper, NMWSYA is a great record: good enough song, killer track, Ross' near-perfect vocal [[enunciate, please) and makes the most of the material. It was just over produced and over mixed. It was just too damn much noise coming off a plastic disc into a transistor radio..............you couldn't follow it. I know people who bought it and almost never played it. Motown thought enough of it to name the album after it and put out advanced promo posters for the upcoming smash LP. The lack of adds and poor interest from the public was so strong and so fast, it only took weeks to change the title and tear down the posters. I think there's a hit record there somewhere.

[bradsupremes]

Motown should have considered releasing another track or two off the Love Child album.

I'll Set You Free
How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone
He's My Sunny Boy
[[Don't Break These) Chains Of Love

All of those songs were hit potential, but instead they released album filler tracks as singles [[ex. The Composer). In fact, there were vaulted tracks at the time worthy of single release like "You Gave Me Love."

[marybrewster]

I think the problem is, after HDH, there were just too many writers and producers. The "Let the Sunshine In" LP had FIFTEEN producers. OVERKILL.

Berry should have partnered them up soley with one set of writers and one set of producers and focused on coming up with something less grab-bag.

Also, both "LTSI" and "Cream of the Crop" had just WAY too many covers.

[supremester]

I like You Gave Me Love but don't think it or those hoarse recordings would have hit even as high. The Top 40 lists were full of very strong entries. Even I'm Livin In Shame only BARELY cracked the top ten - and that was with 2 platinum singles on the chart at the time of their release. The superb Up The Ladder only one week at #10. IMHO, they had nothing to release until NMWSYA, I can see their thinking on that one - even if it didn't work out.

Motown should have considered releasing another track or two off the Love Child album.

I'll Set You Free
How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone
He's My Sunny Boy
[[Don't Break These) Chains Of Love

All of those songs were hit potential, but instead they released album filler tracks as singles [[ex. The Composer). In fact, there were vaulted tracks at the time worthy of single release like "You Gave Me Love."

[smark21]

Diana Ross’ lead vocal performance is the best thing about No Matter. The lyrics are fairly generic, the production and instrumentation are fine, except for the cheesy Sitar intro—that Sitar part falls way short of pop/rock use of the instrument in such songs as Norweigian Wood and Paint it Black. The background vocals and arrangement are the weakest part of the record—The Andantes are at their most bland and generic. But even if they had brought their vocal A game [[or if Mary and Cindy had brought their vocal A –game), it wouldn’t matter as what the backparts had to sing was pretty bad—reciting the signs of the zodiac, with an emphasis on “Aquarius” to remind everyone what hit was being ripped off, and the repeating of words such as “Good Vibrations” and “Good Combination” was unimaginative and silly.

[supremester]

LOL. That sitar has always annoyed me, but on May 8, 1969, it was an acceptable, but hardly desirable, intro. it has NOTHING to do with the record. I think it needed some bombast to carry you into that mess. Also, I think the A's sound great and love their harmony and vocal spread. The two chants weren't as cheezy as they seem today because back then, many to most people had no idea what the signs were. In fact, lots of people didn't even know they had a sign. The song Aquarius was thought of as a peace & love/hippie type song and so NMWSYA didn't really have so much of a rip off feel to it because the subject was so totally different [[and, Aquarius & Sagittarius do rhyme - I don't think it was a cash-in, personally.) It's fascinating that pop culture changed so much.

It's interesting to me that Ross' vocal is so good - most from that time period are hoarse and perfunctory. She might actually have had a day or two rest and more than an hour to work on it. It shows. I think if they had presented it on Sullivan like they did Forever Came Today - with an emphasis on the lyric and not beads flying all over during a song that's too hard to follow - WITH a toned down mix, it would have hit the top ten. I think Gordy got carried away like Deke did on the We Need You story.

[sup_fan]

i agree - this is a fun campy song for us fans but hardly an artistic accomplishment for the girl[[s). i too believe Berry was thinking perhaps they could glom off of the 5th Dimension and Aquarius. that was huge in society at the time so it really is nothing more than a cheap rip-off.

How Long Has this Evening Train would have been a MUCH better follow up to Love Child. Shame is just that - as shame!!!! the lyrics are embarrassing. Train would have kept that same sombre mood of LC but not been an annoying rip off of it.

i've heard about LTSI being originally named NMWSUA. would love to see copies of the advance adds with this title.

Another question i posed though in the original thread is about Diana. if NMWSUR was a hit and the last single of the DRATS, then would Someday be her first single? would the Diana Ross lp been more centered around Someday and These Things Will Keep Me Loving You rather than A&S?

[supremester]

NMWSYA was recorded Feb 27, leaked to certain stations in late April and was in stores May 9. I have been told it was not the mix that went commercial, but TCMS didn't mention a leaked mix, so......I dunno. People who heard it say it didn't sound like the record. When sales didn't materialize on May 9 in leaked markets and adds were weak, the album title switch was made. Aquarius hit #1 April 12 and stayed there 6 weeks. The timeline doesn't allow for much cashing in on Aquarius.

[supremester]

Capricorn AOOOOOWWWWW! Sorry, I don't know how it turned sideways. That is the bottom of the poster - all that's missing is the bottom frame. I only have 2 collectables framed, this was a special find for me.

[reese]

I wonder if this was a case of the new album cover being taped over the original? On both copies that I bought of LET THE SUNSHINE IN, the front cover is glued on in the way that most back covers were during that period.

[supremester]

You're right - it was that extra heavy paper too.......hmmmmmmmm........

[supremester]

Peaked at #17 for 2 weeks. Here's a glimpse at the competition on our #1 pop station, KISN. KISN was so popular, it had, at one time, 86% of the total audience in this market. The #2 station didn't add it until they sponsored DR&TS' Aug 4 concert. It peaked at 19 I believe.

[stephanie]

Im glad I am not the only that hates the sitar on that record. If they had started the song off with no sitar and just Capricorn OW, Scorpio yeah, taurus, Gemini and so on like the beginning of the song by the Four Tops [[Im in a Different World) I think it could have been a modest hit.

The Love Child album along with More Hits by the Supremes is one of their most consistent albums I am shocked at how good it is compared to some of their later albums. Bayou is right that album could have had more hits plucked from it. The front and the back of the album cover is beautiful and they appear on vinyl and on the record to be a group and not just Miss Ross. I wish this album would have had Someday Well be Together on it I think it would have made a great swan song like Martha and the Vandellas Black Magic. This album never gets boring.

[midnightman]

I think the problem is, after HDH, there were just too many writers and producers. The "Let the Sunshine In" LP had FIFTEEN producers. OVERKILL.

Berry should have partnered them up soley with one set of writers and one set of producers and focused on coming up with something less grab-bag.

Also, both "LTSI" and "Cream of the Crop" had just WAY too many covers.

Yeah I saw the credits. We talk about people having nine writers writing on one song nowadays but damn fifteen PRODUCERS is too much. It seemed like common practice in Motown. o_O

[supremester]

I love More Hits, CRAVE Black Magic but don't care for Love Child....... at all. Ross' vocals are, for the most part, ho hum and the production is the same. I know this is the minority opinion, but I can't help it. It was the most disappointing album of theirs I got [[I was hoping the entire LP would be similar in quality as the single).........kind of like The Red Hot Rhythm & Blues of the 60's. I do not hear any lost hits on there.

To me, the Love Child & LTSI albums sound like the Sing HDH Heatwave.......uninspired tracks with fast-track vocals and almost nothing as far as production. I don't want her recording hoarse.

I don't care about the number of producers. Most of my fave solo LPs are multi jobs [[Touch Me In The Morning, Diana & Marvin, The Black Album, Take Me Higher) are the four I play the most [[Not counting Blue or Very Special Season.)

[smark21]

There are a few songs Diana recorded hoarse which sound good to me, especially Stormy, where the raspy quality of her vocal enhances the song and lyrics. OTOH, her hoarse vocal on Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In adds another layer of awfulness to that recording.

[supremester]

I'm ok with Aquarius' vocal.......but the track???? , but can't even listen to Western Union Man, Everyday people, Chains Of Love - those countless songs where her hoarseness hampers her performance. I agree with you on Stormy. It speaks volumes about how Gordy thought of her as a commodity more than a person OR artist. Even trying to get her to eat was more to protect his investment, I suspect, than his genuine concern for her health.