The Release That Wasn't: The Supremes/MOTHER DEAR - The Red Skelton Show, 1965

[rrussi]

I like the Dean Martin performance because they did it "live"! I remember this night as I had just come home from seeing Jan & Dean and the Shangri-las perform "live" when we turned on the TV to Dean Martin.

[reese]

I like the Dean Martin performance because they did it "live"! I remember this night as I had just come home from seeing Jan & Dean and the Shangri-las perform "live" when we turned on the TV to Dean Martin.

You and Tony should write a book. I enjoy reading about all of the great concerts you guys went to.

[rrussi]

Oh, thanks reese! Yes, there were many, many shows we went to back then. I still do when I can. I just saw Diana Ross in Orlando on Sept. 3rd.

[supremester]

You saw them LIVE??? I was SO in love with Jan - omg.....for a while more than Ricky Nelson even [[and before George Harrison - yes, I was a tramp in K-3.) Do you recall anything about the show? PS How was Miss Ross in Orlando?

[rod_rick]

[QUOTE=supremester;194928]That they were only used after Flo left to get the public used to Diane's voice without Mary & Cindy to ease her transition to a solo career and implied that once rid of the yoke of having to work under Diane's rule, The A's were no longer used [[even though they are on the first single and more than half of the first album.) She is therefore taking credit for the work, talent and sound of others on dozens of songs which I think is professionally immoral. It also fits in with her misleading accounts of Motown 25 and RTL. Ever the victim, one wonders exactly what was true.[/QUO

It's possible that Mary & Flo recorded the songs that the A's are on. The A's sound is very close to Flo and Mary but it's 3 of the A's compared to Mary & Flo. Also as for approximating the sound live, the producers could reel Flo in and have her sing softer on recording, theyhad no control in live performances that's why they turned her mic down. When Flo sang softer she and Mary had a wonderful blend. Mary & CIndy had wonderful blend when Cindy's mic was balanced. Compare Farewell to Talk of the Town. Also most of the studio recording Mary and Cindy are on the blend is good. Loud is not always better, I had a voice teacher that would say that less is more when it come to vocals

[supremester]

The studio logs are fairly clear on who is on what. Entire albums like Merry Christmas, for example. You're right that The A's - extremely talented, could approximate the sound of Mary & Flo, the drone of The Vandellas, the girl groupiness of The Marvelettes etc. They were outstanding singers. I love both Mary & Flo's voices. Think of WDOLG without Mary: lots of singers could sing her part - but her sound and style is spot on for that record - and I love her live stuff like on Talk Of The Town. On record with Cindy, she sings softly and with a hushed tone to match Cindy but the problem is that Mary's rich alto loses it's personality and they sound, to me, bland and weak. Yes, I know power isn't everything, but I can't think of very many songs I like just them on - including Stoned Love. I loved them on Up The Ladder and know I learn The A's are there. I think they hurt a lot of the JMC tracks - most of what I love by them are really The A's or a mix. Even Nathan Jones has help.

[floyjoy678]

rod_rick I agree with that. When it was first suggested that Marlene replaced Florence on You Can't Hurry Love I went along with it and believed it plus I never liked the backgrounds for that song anyway because of Mary's voice being more upfront but I recently listened to the backgrounds isolated and changed my mind I now think that it was Mary and Florence. Someone even said the studio session log says it's Mary, Diana and Florence. Plus why didn't Mary expose that one in her book if it was true. Same thing with the couple of people who think "Reflections" is Mary and Marlene, Mary goes out of her way in her book to say it was the last single that Florence appears on. And again I agree none of their songs were replicated live. Listen to "Where Did Our Love Go" and then listen to the live version on the Copa Expanded Album, listen to "Come See About Me" and "Baby Love" and then listen to the live performances of it at the Fox Theater. None of them match up with the original recording. Overall until H-D-H, Diana or Mary say anything I just take it as theories.

[bradsupremes]

Session logs don't list the individuals who sang on a particular song. It's either states lead, group and/or voices.

The background vocals for "You Can't Hurry Love" were recorded July 5, 1966. The two other songs recorded during that session included "Come On And See Me" and "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." There was additional date for "Come On And See Me" which was when the Andantes were dubbed in. Take a listen to "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." Can you hear Flo?

If Mary stated in her book that "Reflections" is the last single Flo sang on, then she clearly forgot about "In And Out Of Love." With the hundreds of songs these ladies recorded, are they going to remember every session clearly and who they sang with? Unless you're Martha Reeves who has the memory of a steel trap, you won't. I mean look at how many women claim to be on "Someday We'll Be Together." It's pretty clear they're not all singing on it.

[rod_rick]

The studio logs are fairly clear on who is on what. Entire albums like Merry Christmas, for example. You're right that The A's - extremely talented, could approximate the sound of Mary & Flo, the drone of The Vandellas, the girl groupiness of The Marvelettes etc. They were outstanding singers. I love both Mary & Flo's voices. Think of WDOLG without Mary: lots of singers could sing her part - but her sound and style is spot on for that record - and I love her live stuff like on Talk Of The Town. On record with Cindy, she sings softly and with a hushed tone to match Cindy but the problem is that Mary's rich alto loses it's personality and they sound, to me, bland and weak. Yes, I know power isn't everything, but I can't think of very many songs I like just them on - including Stoned Love. I loved them on Up The Ladder and know I learn The A's are there. I think they hurt a lot of the JMC tracks - most of what I love by them are really The A's or a mix. Even Nathan Jones has help.

I guess my problem with the logs is that they are still finding things in the vault that others had no idea were there, I don't as much stock in them as others might. Yes I do consider them, but Motown was doing so much recording who really know who is singing behind who. When Mary and other say they recorded certain songs I believe them, now if they were in the final mix or had help who knows. If icould layer background vocals using two cassette recorders I'm sure it was fairly easy to do with four or eight track back in the 60's. I don't mind the A's on some recording I problem was when they were used instead of. A little help never help but why replace the entire group. Up The Ladder To the Roof is a favorite of mine you can hear the A's under Mary and Cindy not instead of. FOr Nathan Jones they had a an additonal singer in the background I believe Cindy said it was Clyde King which did not take away Mary & Cindy's role. As for Mary Mary's rich alto sometime it work and sometime it didn't in the background imo, when they ladies are balanced they all have a teriffic blend. When JMC did Andy Williams they sang UTLTTR and EGTRTL, Cindy was loud in the mix love it because you could hear the blend. Another example of Mary & CIndy blend is Tarzan when they sang Michael Row The Boat A-shore, fantastic. Again its all about balance imo

[rod_rick]

The studio logs are fairly clear on who is on what. Entire albums like Merry Christmas, for example. You're right that The A's - extremely talented, could approximate the sound of Mary & Flo, the drone of The Vandellas, the girl groupiness of The Marvelettes etc. They were outstanding singers. I love both Mary & Flo's voices. Think of WDOLG without Mary: lots of singers could sing her part - but her sound and style is spot on for that record - and I love her live stuff like on Talk Of The Town. On record with Cindy, she sings softly and with a hushed tone to match Cindy but the problem is that Mary's rich alto loses it's personality and they sound, to me, bland and weak. Yes, I know power isn't everything, but I can't think of very many songs I like just them on - including Stoned Love. I loved them on Up The Ladder and know I learn The A's are there. I think they hurt a lot of the JMC tracks - most of what I love by them are really The A's or a mix. Even Nathan Jones has help.

I guess my problem with the logs is that they are still finding things in the vault that others had no idea were there, I don't as much stock in them as others might. Yes I do consider them, but Motown was doing so much recording who really know who is singing behind who. When Mary and other say they recorded certain songs I believe them, now if they were in the final mix or had help who knows. If icould layer background vocals using two cassette recorders I'm sure it was fairly easy to do with four or eight track back in the 60's. I don't mind the A's on some recording I problem was when they were used instead of. A little help never help but why replace the entire group. Up The Ladder To the Roof is a favorite of mine you can hear the A's under Mary and Cindy not instead of. FOr Nathan Jones they had a an additonal singer in the background I believe Cindy said it was Clyde King which did not take away Mary & Cindy's role. As for Mary Mary's rich alto sometime it work and sometime it didn't in the background imo, when they ladies are balanced they all have a teriffic blend. When JMC did Andy Williams they sang UTLTTR and EGTRTL, Cindy was loud in the mix love it because you could hear the blend. Another example of Mary & CIndy blend is Tarzan when they sang Michael Row The Boat A-shore, fantastic. Again its all about balance imo

[floyjoy678]

Brad I haven't listened to "Misery" in a long time, when I get home later I'll have to take a listen. I do know that the first time I heard their version of "Come On and See Me" I right away knew it was the Andantes. Weren't "You Can't Hurry Love" and "You Keep Me Hangin' On" recorded within weeks/days of each other? I just don't understand why they would use Florence for the one song and then decide not to use her for the other. I do know one of them [[HDH) has said he didn't like Florence's voice I just can't remember which one it was that said that. As for not being able to hear Florence on a certain song, what about "Where Did Our Love Go?"? You can just barely make her out under Mary's vocal so are you suggesting she's not on that song either? And I know Mary and Florence recorded a vocal for "In and Out Of Love" but didn't H-D-H cover up their vocals with the Andantes? Though these are all good theories that you guys have, again I'd rather hear it from HDH, Diana or Mary.

[antceleb12]

Brad I haven't listened to "Misery" in a long time, when I get home later I'll have to take a listen. I do know that the first time I heard their version of "Come On and See Me" I right away knew it was the Andantes. Weren't "You Can't Hurry Love" and "You Keep Me Hangin' On" recorded within weeks/days of each other? I just don't understand why they would use Florence for the one song and then decide not to use her for the other. I do know one of them [[HDH) has said he didn't like Florence's voice I just can't remember which one it was that said that. As for not being able to hear Florence on a certain song, what about "Where Did Our Love Go?"? You can just barely make her out under Mary's vocal so are you suggesting she's not on that song either? And I know Mary and Florence recorded a vocal for "In and Out Of Love" but didn't H-D-H cover up their vocals with the Andantes? Though these are all good theories that you guys have, again I'd rather hear it from HDH, Diana or Mary.

I know that with a lot of record companies [[i.e. Phil Spector, being the most infamous case), if an artist was unavailable, he/she/they would be replaced by studio musicians. For instance, "He" was, apparently, supposed to be a group project, but Flo was a no-show, so Berry just left it to Diana. The Andantes' book states that it was one of them [[Marlene, I think?) on "You Can't Hurry love." I have always thought that the back-ups didn't sound like Mary and Flo [[especially when I compare it to the rest of the "A Go Go" album), but that's my ears. I've had a hard time with "Misery," too. Sometimes I think it's Flo, sometimes I think it's an Andante. I also heard that the Andantes were supposed to be mixed onto "The Happening," but Flo convinced Berry not to!

[rod_rick]

Brad I haven't listened to "Misery" in a long time, when I get home later I'll have to take a listen. I do know that the first time I heard their version of "Come On and See Me" I right away knew it was the Andantes. Weren't "You Can't Hurry Love" and "You Keep Me Hangin' On" recorded within weeks/days of each other? I just don't understand why they would use Florence for the one song and then decide not to use her for the other. I do know one of them [[HDH) has said he didn't like Florence's voice I just can't remember which one it was that said that. As for not being able to hear Florence on a certain song, what about "Where Did Our Love Go?"? You can just barely make her out under Mary's vocal so are you suggesting she's not on that song either? And I know Mary and Florence recorded a vocal for "In and Out Of Love" but didn't H-D-H cover up their vocals with the Andantes? Though these are all good theories that you guys have, again I'd rather hear it from HDH, Diana or Mary.

Flo is on Where Did Our Love Go she real faint you can hear her on the "Baby Baby's. This when they had Mary up on the mic a Flo a few feet away.

[jobeterob]

Where Did Our Love Go is Diana with Mary on backgrounds like You Keep Me Hangin On and Manhattan are Diana with Flo on backgrounds. That's what it sounds like. If someone else is with them on those songs, it doesn't really matter.

[rod_rick]

Where Did Our Love Go is Diana with Mary on backgrounds like You Keep Me Hangin On and Manhattan are Diana with Flo on backgrounds. That's what it sounds like. If someone else is with them on those songs, it doesn't really matter.

Rob
Actually it does matter because without them you don't have the same sound in the background. Flo is an echo on Where Did Our Love Go, without her the baccking vocal would sound different. Mary is on YKMHO, and Manhattan. Manhattan is sung in two part harmony until the end. Mary help take the edge off of Florence sound because she can sound bright on the top note.

[smark21]

rod_rick I agree with that. When it was first suggested that Marlene replaced Florence on You Can't Hurry Love I went along with it and believed it plus I never liked the backgrounds for that song anyway because of Mary's voice being more upfront but I recently listened to the backgrounds isolated and changed my mind I now think that it was Mary and Florence. Someone even said the studio session log says it's Mary, Diana and Florence. Plus why didn't Mary expose that one in her book if it was true. Same thing with the couple of people who think "Reflections" is Mary and Marlene, Mary goes out of her way in her book to say it was the last single that Florence appears on. And again I agree none of their songs were replicated live. Listen to "Where Did Our Love Go" and then listen to the live version on the Copa Expanded Album, listen to "Come See About Me" and "Baby Love" and then listen to the live performances of it at the Fox Theater. None of them match up with the original recording. Overall until H-D-H, Diana or Mary say anything I just take it as theories.

None of their HDH hits could be replicated live with the band they used for their shows. Even if they had the Andantes or whoever helping out or subbing on background vocals live to recreate the vocal blend of the recording, they would not have been able to recreate the recording? Why? Because the musical arrangements were different as were the musicians. It’s because of the music, not the vocals.

[supremester]

I have a very close bud who is my Flo expert. He has insisted that Flo was not on YCHL and I hadn't really thought about it. I have heard the bgs isolated and am certain it's Mary & Marlene - but I don't care. I love hearing Flo but when I can't and the record is perfect like YCHL, I don't care, but I find it interesting who is on what and that Mary chose to make lies overS.O.P. at Motown into heinous and devious behavior. I hate the bg on Reflections whoever it is - ditto In & Out Of Love. I would have preferred Mary & Flo on all three singles from Reflections.