Drlorne
If you read Barney Ales' forward, he states that WDOLG was Never intended for Marvelettes..it was always written for DRATS.
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Yes, so many inconsistencies...about his decisions and it was obvious it was about money.
I thought it was funny because at one point in the book, they want to relax so they went to the racetrack and he mentions they had just bought 6 race horses. He wanted more money and more power. It makes you wonder if the failure of Invictus might have been due to this blind side of his personality.
I think the book was a lazy man's undertaking, just to make money.
I hope Lamont Dozier's book is better written and more detailed about the writing process and has more information about the producing and background to their songs.
I have not bought the book yet, so I know this is premature, but some of the comments so far struck a chord with me about some of these books. I've bought quite a few books on Motown and the thing I've found is that there are a couple that call to mind the term "Vanity Press". These are books that seem to be written completely by someone who doesn't really have a grasp for how to write in detail, depth and with no real sense of narrative. These books are nothing more than very, VERY short sentences strung together as opposed to paragraphs that give context, detail and a sense of some kind of drama that makes us want to read on. The major publishing houses would pass on them in a second, but it's fairly easy to get anything published- if you pay them enough.
I don't know if the person[[s) writing these types of books are working with professional editors or not. Someone who could prod the subject to really get into something with "meat on its bones" to grip the reader's attention. Instead, we get not much more than heavily sanitized anecdotes that give no real background or motive for why this or that happened, why this or that turned out as it did. Some of these books read like nothing short of Dear Diary entries strung together.
I'd have to say, for better or worse, Mary Wilson's books were very involving and interesting reading. I'm not talking about accuracy here or whether or not you like the woman, but I'm dealing with the art of writing in a way that draws someone in. If the book angers you, fine. At least it elicited some kind of emotional response. Some of the books I've purchased from former Motowners are so poorly written and short on detail, they don't even get me mad or happy. Just yawning with the sense of not learning anything new.
If Lamont was astute enough to get an editor who was smart enough to encourage him not to try to make himself out a flawless, saintly human, maybe we'll get something that will make us jump up and down.
I have a number of Motown books. In terms of detail , it is one of the better ones.
The narrative is mainly EH but then we are given "quotes" by...EH! So much of it must be co writer Dave Thompson.
Like I have said, the main interest for me is the "strike". EH apparently 'walked out' in 1961 because of his lack of royalties on "Jamie". Motown was trying to build itself into a viable record label..early days...and if he had built a career around a few hits, money would have come, even if only in stage appearances.
Of course we know he didn't want to do that. Not much money would be made on sales alone.
By late 1966 Motown was making big money after lots of hits and presumably TV and theatre bookings [[ How much were DRATS / Motown getting for Las Vegas bookings). I think a number of employees at the 'coal face' ...artists, musicians, writers /producers/ arrangers etc were able to see certain staff at the high end were receiving big rewards. A lot of unrest was brewing, and with Gordy frequently absent with DRATS, the atmosphere must have been festering. I think EH tapped into this, and knowing that HDH were so important, took his chance to challenge Berry.
By making him head of A&R, he had given EH a strong bargaining chip.
It's human nature to want to be rewarded for your hard work, skills and talent. If your employer does not want to meet your idea of your worth, you might look for another job/position.
I think EH has a beef that their contracts/royalty rates are on a par with other, less sucessful writers.
But as HDH had big hits, they were getting bigger rewards.
The 'internal' report, and the slight of the unnamed producer is telling.
BTW any idea to whom he is refering to?
The way he deals with 'Edith Wayne" is laughable. I presume.a.lawsuit might be around the corner. We have bern told she was an office.cleaner..or a ficticious name of Lamont's teacher..
We know find out that she was in fact EH girlfriend/wife . We all know HDH wrote those early songs under her name
But the way he avoids telling us is in keeping with a lot of his narrative.
Thanks snakepit , I'm getting a lot out of your comments. Too bad you weren't the editor !! You could've steered the narrative and given Eddie the needed push. I think a lot of times the writers don't understand what it is the readers are seeking, or they mostly hold back and don't want to do an honest reveal. For me, there never seems to be enough about the music itself and its making.
Boogiedown,
I would recommend the book to you.
There are lots of details a Motown collector will find useful.
By and large , it flows well in respect of Motown chronolgy. Some details are incorrect but not as bad some other books.
The issue for me is EH constantly equating everything to money [[ or lack of it) and then using verbal gymnastics to try to persuade us that money was not the reason for him leaving.
Some things that come out of the story. It appears he left on his own....Brian and Lamont apprer to be somewhat railroaded into leaving.
EH was clearly having discussions with other labels and playing one of against the other. His demands must have worn Berry down, and he eventually handed it all to his admin/legal team.
EH's ego wanted a fight....and the rest is history.
At last my signed copy of Lamont's book arrived yesterday [[New Year's Eve) took a while posted from USA 13th December, well worth waiting for, great signature, love the cover, and good reading so far, also impressed to have the free CD in the back page.
Read about WDOLG in Lamont Doziers book.Thats the story I remember decades ago.
13% of the way through the book on my kindle - it says
I’ve read that WDOLG was written for the Supremes only
Other than that a lot about aunts uncles grandparents that isn’t very cohesive and doesn’t create much of a narrative
Hoping to move along quite quickly
It gets a lot better
Brian dated Diana and Lamont dated Mary; Florence might have been interested in Eddie but he has his iron in too many fires already
Some of the most complimentary writing I’ve seen about Diana
Nothing much about Mary
A good section on Baby Love and how Brian said to go for the feel of a song; everyone agreed Brian was a genius who musical abilities were beyond everyone else; Eddie says it again and again
A good section on how much trouble they initially had teaching Levi Baby I Need Your Loving
And Where Did Our Love Go never was intended for anyone but the Supremes, but Eddie did think Mary should sing lead - which lead to lowering Diana’s voice for the tune and dropping some of that early high pitched sound
Get the book
I've not read the book and I'm no expert on HDH but these were young people and many of the guys fancied Diana by all accounts so maybe the fallout was to do with that since Brian Holland was keen on her and Berry got "the prize" as it were.
Maybe the split wasn't all about money but about personal relationships generally. I'm sure I read somewhere that once when "I Hear A Symphony" came on the car radio, Brian pulled over and cried. Plus, potentially, the DRATS career could have been harmed the most by the departure of HDH. Are there any clues to that in the songs - "Reflections" seems quite deep?
The Diana Brian relationship ended before Diana and Berry were an item; Brian enlisted Berry to help Diana through the breakup. Brian stayed because of his children and in the end, he left. His wife is said to have been one of the meanest people who was physically violent on impulse and who eventually committed suicide.
There is a section on I Hear A Symphony and it definitely was regarded as special.
I’m halfway through and haven’t reached Reflections or the split.
It’s about $25 for a digital copy; it starts slowly but it’s a decent read.
All Motown fans should read it; it does change your view and debunks some widely held ideas.
This is not the story Lamont tells in his book. He says that they wrote the songs for The Marvelettes who didn't think it fit them. Wanting to make sure they didn't get stuck for the recording costs of the track, he pitched it to Mary as having been written for The Supremes but she knew they had already pitched it to The Marvelettes.
Marv 2, I agree with you. Eddie and Brian's book must have been a "vanity Press", because it really is a mess. I certainly felt betrayed and "taken", because they could have offered so much more, but they gave the minimum to get the money. Nothing really new, and what might have been new, is refuted in Lamon't book. I didn't buy his book, in honesty, but didn't like his re-take on his music, and the Dozier's book came out first, so I didn't want to be taken twice.
Do you think we'll ever know the real ins and out of the Supreme's music and the HDH catalogue?
I only bought the first book -I kept saying I was going to buy the 2nd book, but I think I was afraid that the first one was a hard act to follow!- but I did really enjoy it. The writing felt "thorough", not as if she was just hurriedly dropping one incomplete story after another.
I say that, because I know, myself, if I'm sending an email [[or DECADES ago, when I wrote letters), I have a tendency to get a bit lazy and just drop a few quick blurbs instead of actually writing in depth about things going on with me. I've read many books where it felt like I was only getting a few quickly tossed off recollections along the lines of "I felt very deeply that my song would be a hit and when it was, I was very happy!" Mary gave you something to seriously chew on, detailed recollections of this or that which made for engaging reading.
I love that woman. She kept her wits about her she knew that this thing called "celebrity" is a game you needed to learn quickly to endure, especially at Motown.
On the left is his story, on the right is his story and somewhere in the middle is the truth. In an episode of the old "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" there was an auto accident that had been viewed by several people. Each had a different recollection of the accident. When the truth of what actually happened is revealed you see bits and pieces of everyone's story. There was a kernel of truth in everyone's recollection.
I tend to go with Lamont's story of "Where Did Our Love Go." Doesn't mean I'm right, but I believe it. One thing I appreciate about the Holland brothers' book is that for once, someone from Motown is giving The Marvelettes some serious props. I was pleasantly surprised to read in quite a few places how important the group was to Motown and to the Hollands in the early days. In fact, you gain a perspective on just how solid The Marvelettes were performing compared to even Martha & The Vandellas. I always took it that The Marvelettes were hot for a moment, the fairly quickly faded to a distant second place once Martha & The Vandellas hit. The Hollands' book seems to give a bit more perspective on that.
Years ago, I recall reading, maybe from Lamont, that when "Where" was being pitched, the feeling was to place it with The Marvelettes because they were the sure bet. I believe that as The Supremes still weren't really selling with any consistency and hadn't become fan favorites across the board yet. Also, when you listen to what HDH had been doing with The Marvelettes, songs like "He Won't Be True [[Little Girl Blue)", "Tie A String Around Your Finger", "A Little Bit Of Sympathy, A Little Bit Of Love", "A Need For Love", you can hear a definite sound being developed. HDH's work with The Marvelettes was much closer in sound to "Where" than what the trio had been doing with The Supremes up to that point. And the song was also in Gladys Horton's key, something either Lamont or one of the Hollands had recalled some years ago. Also, "Come And Get These Memories" shows that at this point, "Where" wasn't seen as an automatic hit that would instantly sell millions and catapult The Supremes into instant stardom. At this point, it was still Martha & The Vandellas' and The Marvelettes' ballpark and someone thought "Where" would have a chance of working with The Marvelettes.
So one thing about this book is that Eddie and to some degree Brian, have a tendency to kinda blow right past any really deep detailing of how some of these songs took place. I was a bummed when I read about "Reach Out", everyone thought it was certainly strange. That's about all that is said about that earth-shaking song. Then, toward the end of the book, when discussing the Invictus years, there are passages where not much context is given and I would read something and think, "what?" [[There was a story about a box of expensive wine given and it was a bit murky as to why it meant anything). I did enjoy the book, but it would have been nice to have a few more details about some things here and there.
In the end, I think this story about "Where" is just one of those things where he has his side of the story, the other guys have their side of the story and the truth lies somewhere in between.
What’s the relationship of the Holland’s and Lamont these days? Is there still some contact?
I wondered if this book was a framework for something else? Another Broadway play?
I once did a rough calculation of what Motown the Musical made and it was staggering.
They do talk about Reflections, the move to album sales and the use of the synthesizer - which Brian disliked. But it worked very well and they were happy they used it.
They say this was a tough time because Florence had started to drink and she and Diana were not getting along. Mary stayed out of it all but Florence was replaced and the group was renamed.
And they say Diana is the only Supreme on Reflections.
I have both books. It's been a few months since I've read them but here are my initial thoughts. I will have to reread them both to see if I have the same or different reactions to each.
Brian and Eddie's book seemed like a series of interviews that were transcribed for publication. More like an in-depth Goldmine Magazine article for record collectors and music fans. I don't care for this type of "book". I would still recommend it for collectors and fans.
Lamont's book seemed more professionally executed. His book had a goal of guiding future songwriters with tips based on personal experiences in his life and career. It seems Lamont has had an interesting career beyond Motown, Invictus and his early solo career. It was an informative read. It seemed to have a soft and relaxed tone. I would recommend this book to casual music fans, in addition to the collector and avid Motown fan.
I enjoyed reading about their lives before Motown. It seemed that the three of them were fans of Popular music, through the influence of older relatives. Although Gospel, R&B and the Blues had a presence in their young lives, it was Pop music of the day that caught their ears. That would certainly explain the success they had at Motown in merging R&B and Pop, to some degree.
It seems all three of them were constantly working on music, whether together or alone. It sounded like a frenetic pace. This might explain the discrepancies in some of their stories, especially WDOLG. I wonder if individually they may have presented the song to one of the girls from both groups to gauge a reaction or get feedback to see if their hunch or approach made sense. And besides who can really remember some details from so long ago.
Both books are definitely must reads for Motown music collectors and fans. Most of the Motown books I have read have fallen short on some level or another but all of them have given me something valuable regarding the music and artist.
They sure have some differing views just like everything else
As others have mentioned, there could be some truth in the middle
They don’t say who they used in the background - just a one liner that there was only one Supreme on Reflections
Not sure about the end of this book
Of course, nothing HDH did after Motown had anywhere near the impact of 1964 to 1968
Eddie seems convinced of his importance; he was consumed in more than one legal fight with Berry Gordy but he doesn’t spell out any really detail at all. He wants to convince everyone and maybe himself that he loved Berry and Berry loved him but they are too strong willed and had to fight to the end
I wasn’t impressed by the argument
He seemed like an aggressive litigant wasting a lot of money with lawyers
There was a lot more that could have filled out the book
He "walked out" in about 1962....it seems it was all about money as far as EH was concerned.
It seems to me that he saw how MGM headhunted William Stevenson, presumably for a salary Gordy wouldn't match, and he used his new found status to "try it on" with the Boss.
He was clearly sounding out other companies for more money.
Yes...EH left Motown , initially leaving BH and LD behind.
The vast majority of the HDH towards the end were recycled productions of earlier songs, and I'd guess that was BH and LD work. EH had stopped writing some time earlier and he left on his own
The others followed him later.
Seems he had the upper hand.
Eddie got 50% and the others got 25% each.
And it seems to me the most talented one was Brian. That's what Eddie seems to keep saying all the time. And I think there's an implication Lamont was a notch below; at least he keeps saying that's how Lamont felt.
I don't really understand why Eddie got 50%.
Interesting but disappointing and not well written; worth reading ; 3 out of 5
Maybe both narratives are correct. In releasing this single, Motown was emphatic in letting us know that now there were two entities: "The Supremes" and "Diana Ross."
So Mary Wilson, a Supreme, and Diana Ross, a singular superstar, may each be on this recording, and Messrs. Holland and Mr. Dozier are each providing accurate information, despite the seeming contradiction.
I wonder what George’s thought are on what the Holland’s say
The problem with many of these recent memoirs that are being released is that these accounts are finally being recalled and put to paper, nearly 60 years after these events occurred. This is sadly something that should have been done 20 or 30 years ago, while memories were far more clear than they are now. With that being said, I am not surprised that Lamont's book contains stories that conflict with Eddie and Brian's book. I am also not surprised that neither of their books offer up more details than what we wanted and expected. The time to do this would have been in the 80's or early 90's, when other Motown stars were releasing their books. I also do not believe that Diana is the only Supreme on Reflections. If you are a long-time fan with an attuned ear, you will clearly hear Mary on there. I am certain that the memories and recounts of such events have significantly faded, so to hear one claim, "I remember that only so-and-so sang on this record" does not really carry a lot of weight after 50 years, in my opinion. Jobeterob, you yourself are a retired lawyer, if I am not mistaken? This argument I am making goes in line with why the legal concept of statute of limitations exists. :) I am certain that they were mistaking their memories of the Reflections sessions with the sessions for a different song.