Scherrie Joins the Supremes

[marybrewster]

"Mary called me on a Thursday and asked if I could come out to LA by Saturday because they had an engagement that next Sunday [[in Phoenix). So I flew out and went into rehearsal as soon as I got to her house. Cindy picked me up at the airport. Everyday we rehersed rehearsed rehersed because I had to learn that stuff. I would take the records home and I would go over them late at night when I got home from rehearsal, then I'd go to bed, and it was time for rehearsal again. We had two gowns that were fitted. We needed two for Phoenix and Cincinnati. In Phoenix we wore the RAGGEDY ANNs. They're black and gold with strings hanging off them. Those were the only ones I can think of off hand that didn't go up in the Mexican fire. We didn't like them, that's why we call them RAGGEDY ANNs."

[marybrewster]

Does this timeline make sense? I thought Scherrie's first gigs were in Phoenix and Cincinnati? But she talks about the RAGGEDY ANNs that didn't burn, which would have been BEFORE Phoenix and Cincinnati?

[blackguy69]

They wore the dark brown body pantsuit with the feathers on the Cincinnati show. The raggedy Ann outfits are still around. They wore them on the South American tour

Does this timeline make sense? I thought Scherrie's first gigs were in Phoenix and Cincinnati? But she talks about the RAGGEDY ANNs that didn't burn, which would have been BEFORE Phoenix and Cincinnati?

[marybrewster]

They wore the dark brown body pantsuit with the feathers on the Cincinnati show. The raggedy Ann outfits are still around. They wore them on the South American tour

Scherrie talks about how she had to be pinned into hers as "Jean was big", lol.

[floyjoy678]

Wasn't Jean the tallest Supreme?

[sup_fan]

there are pics of MSC prior to the Mexico fire at various performances. I hadn't heard of them wearing the gold pantsuits [[Raggedy Ann or whatever) but they certainly might have. there are pics of them in the white fringe Central Park mini dresses, the blue and green spangled No Matter What Sign pantsuits, the gold bat wing "last DRATS performance on Sullivan" gowns, the brown sequins and feathers, the red Sonny and Cher gold fringe dresses and the black and white feather ones. Those last two are the new gowns made just for MSC.

various people have talked about different gowns having gone missing and being part of the fire. mary says the yellow Indian maiden gowns were also lost. i think someone once said 9 sets were lost. but some were remade - like the red Sonny and Cher fringe gowns and the black and white feather ones.

[Legendaryfan28]

Well Scherrie’s first ever gig was the New Mexico State Fair on October 31st, 1973. She wasn’t told that until she got to Mary’s house. The fair was essentially her real audition, which she obviously nailed as she landed the position full time. She told me that story at a meet n greet after a show I saw them at in Florida.

[BayouMotownMan]

Scherrie's contribution to the Supremes has always been understated. As she has said, she came into one of the most successful female singing groups of all time when they were going into full decline. With the management they chose they were able to slow the decline but ultimately it claimed them all.

[bradsupremes]

Scherrie talks about how she had to be pinned into hers as "Jean was big", lol.

This is one thing I've never understood. When Jean joined, they rearranged most of the existing gowns so that Cindy wore Mary's, Jean wore Cindy's and Mary wore Diana's so they didn't have to go through major alterations.

When Scherrie came into the group and Cindy returned, they didn't go that route and Scherrie ended up wearing a lot of Jean's gowns. Since Cindy had put on some weight, wouldn't it have made sense for her to wear Jean's gowns and/or her original gown from the DMC sets. The same happened when Susaye came into the group. It made no sense to me why Cindy's gowns had to be adjusted for Susaye when she was so petite.

[marybrewster]

This is one thing I've never understood. When Jean joined, they rearranged most of the existing gowns so that Cindy wore Mary's, Jean wore Cindy's and Mary wore Diana's so they didn't have to go through major alterations.

When Scherrie came into the group and Cindy returned, they didn't go that route and Scherrie ended up wearing a lot of Jean's gowns. Since Cindy had put on some weight, wouldn't it have made sense for her to wear Jean's gowns and/or her original gown from the DMC sets. The same happened when Susaye came into the group. It made no sense to me why Cindy's gowns had to be adjusted for Susaye when she was so petite.

I wonder what the size difference was between Diana, Mary, Cindy, and Jean. We always hear how thin Diana was, but Mary had to have been just as thin to fit into Diana's. In essence, if Mary wore Diana's, and Jean wore Mary's, wouldn't they all basically be the same size? So why wouldn't Mary wear Mary's, Cindy wear Cindy's, and Jean wear Diana's?

[RanRan79]

I wonder what the size difference was between Diana, Mary, Cindy, and Jean. We always hear how thin Diana was, but Mary had to have been just as thin to fit into Diana's. In essence, if Mary wore Diana's, and Jean wore Mary's, wouldn't they all basically be the same size? So why wouldn't Mary wear Mary's, Cindy wear Cindy's, and Jean wear Diana's?

I assume the dresses still had to be altered, they just didn't need major alterations. For a long time Mary looked to be as thin as Diana, who wasn't nearly as thin as we tend think she was until about 1966, when her weight clearly started declining. And even at that point, Mary wasn't much bigger than Diana, but she had a bit more curvature. So by the time Diana left, I could see where Mary could probably squeeze into Diana's gowns, if uncomfortably, and with some minor alterations, being able to fit them more perfectly. As it relates to the others also, I think the keyword is "major" alterations. To Brad's point, I don't think there was any way to easily transition Scherrie or Susaye into any Supremes gowns, although Mary's gowns would likely be the best candidate. Scherrie and Susaye were clearly so much smaller than Cindy and Jean.

[rod_rick]

I assume the dresses still had to be altered, they just didn't need major alterations. For a long time Mary looked to be as thin as Diana, who wasn't nearly as thin as we tend think she was until about 1966, when her weight clearly started declining. And even at that point, Mary wasn't much bigger than Diana, but she had a bit more curvature. So by the time Diana left, I could see where Mary could probably squeeze into Diana's gowns, if uncomfortably, and with some minor alterations, being able to fit them more perfectly. As it relates to the others also, I think the keyword is "major" alterations. To Brad's point, I don't think there was any way to easily transition Scherrie or Susaye into any Supremes gowns, although Mary's gowns would likely be the best candidate. Scherrie and Susaye were clearly so much smaller than Cindy and Jean.

I think it had a lot to do with the bust area

[sup_fan]

This is one thing I've never understood. When Jean joined, they rearranged most of the existing gowns so that Cindy wore Mary's, Jean wore Cindy's and Mary wore Diana's so they didn't have to go through major alterations.

When Scherrie came into the group and Cindy returned, they didn't go that route and Scherrie ended up wearing a lot of Jean's gowns. Since Cindy had put on some weight, wouldn't it have made sense for her to wear Jean's gowns and/or her original gown from the DMC sets. The same happened when Susaye came into the group. It made no sense to me why Cindy's gowns had to be adjusted for Susaye when she was so petite.

Cindy had a FAR larger bosom than Jean. i'm definitely not a tailer or seamstress but maybe it would be too complex of alterations to increase the bust of a gown whereas you can always take it up in the length.

other than a couple of them, seems like they mostly ditched the pantsuits once Jean left. they kept a few of the ones from the Jean era but all the new outfits were dresses again

[BayouMotownMan]

This is one thing I've never understood. When Jean joined, they rearranged most of the existing gowns so that Cindy wore Mary's, Jean wore Cindy's and Mary wore Diana's so they didn't have to go through major alterations.

When Scherrie came into the group and Cindy returned, they didn't go that route and Scherrie ended up wearing a lot of Jean's gowns. Since Cindy had put on some weight, wouldn't it have made sense for her to wear Jean's gowns and/or her original gown from the DMC sets. The same happened when Susaye came into the group. It made no sense to me why Cindy's gowns had to be adjusted for Susaye when she was so petite.


I'm betting Brad that this had to do with budgets. When Jean joined the group Motown was still paying for everything [[and of course charging the ladies) so they still used the same expensive designers to do the alterations the correct way. When Cindy returned and Scherrie joined, they didn't have Motown handling anything so the ladies had to do a lot themselves. Mostly Hazel Bethke did a lot of these things for them. Motown was basically just waiting for Mary to call it a day and spent no time or interest on starting a new group of Supremes. But Mary surprised them all.

[sup_fan]

This is one thing I've never understood. When Jean joined, they rearranged most of the existing gowns so that Cindy wore Mary's, Jean wore Cindy's and Mary wore Diana's so they didn't have to go through major alterations.

When Scherrie came into the group and Cindy returned, they didn't go that route and Scherrie ended up wearing a lot of Jean's gowns. Since Cindy had put on some weight, wouldn't it have made sense for her to wear Jean's gowns and/or her original gown from the DMC sets. The same happened when Susaye came into the group. It made no sense to me why Cindy's gowns had to be adjusted for Susaye when she was so petite.


I'm betting Brad that this had to do with budgets. When Jean joined the group Motown was still paying for everything [[and of course charging the ladies) so they still used the same expensive designers to do the alterations the correct way. When Cindy returned and Scherrie joined, they didn't have Motown handling anything so the ladies had to do a lot themselves. Mostly Hazel Bethke did a lot of these things for them. Motown was basically just waiting for Mary to call it a day and spent no time or interest on starting a new group of Supremes. But Mary surprised them all.

Brad - i thought you mentioned that, at least for Susaye but also maybe Scherrie, that the gowns were not "cut" down for Susaye but just hemmed up. some of the fans were crying about how terrible it was to physically cut and "destroy" the older gowns but i thought you'd mentioned they were just hemmed and so the beading and fabric would still be there

[marybrewster]

Brad - i thought you mentioned that, at least for Susaye but also maybe Scherrie, that the gowns were not "cut" down for Susaye but just hemmed up. some of the fans were crying about how terrible it was to physically cut and "destroy" the older gowns but i thought you'd mentioned they were just hemmed and so the beading and fabric would still be there

"Some of the fans", lol. Just one.....who thinks he knows more than he does.

[sup_fan]

"Some of the fans", lol. Just one.....who thinks he knows more than he does.

and actually by this time many of the DRATS gowns had been significantly redone. not because Susaye was short but because the gowns needed to be adjusted to fit grown women. DMC were in their very early 20s when gowns like the black beaded Forever Came Today or the chandelier gown from Tennessee Ernie Ford special. it's only natural that they would need to be adjusted.

the multi colored halters from Tennesse had their slit filled in with a new panel for JMC when they wore them on the Smokey special. same for the b&w gowns from Always on Sullivan and Funny Girl on TCB

the chandeliers were rebeaded and my guess is this was done to help cover up the alterations

the Forever Came Today black gowns had a big funky looking panel added down the front. there are a few pics of JML wearing these and IMO this wasn't a good adjustment

[gman]

they all had different body types...even if some were somewhat close in size....Mary had a very high waist....some of the DRATS gowns scrunched up on her...you can see this in the Amsterdam clip. Jean had a pretty small top, and wide hips...Cindy was by the Jean era pretty busty, but evenly proportioned and often had the best fit in the tight gowns..Lynda was very shapely and probably had the overall best "a professional tailor could look really close and find no flaws" figure.

[blackguy69]

To be fair Mary had lost weight so that white gown didn’t properly fit.

they all had different body types...even if some were somewhat close in size....Mary had a very high waist....some of the DRATS gowns scrunched up on her...you can see this in the Amsterdam clip. Jean had a pretty small top, and wide hips...Cindy was by the Jean era pretty busty, but evenly proportioned and often had the best fit in the tight gowns..Lynda was very shapely and probably had the overall best "a professional tailor could look really close and find no flaws" figure.

[Boogiedown]

"Mary called me on a Thursday and asked if I could come out to LA by Saturday because they had an engagement that next Sunday [[in Phoenix). So I flew out and went into rehearsal as soon as I got to her house. Cindy picked me up at the airport. Everyday we rehersed rehearsed rehersed because I had to learn that stuff. I would take the records home and I would go over them late at night when I got home from rehearsal, then I'd go to bed, and it was time for rehearsal again. We had two gowns that were fitted. We needed two for Phoenix and Cincinnati. In Phoenix we wore the RAGGEDY ANNs. They're black and gold with strings hanging off them. Those were the only ones I can think of off hand that didn't go up in the Mexican fire. We didn't like them, that's why we call them RAGGEDY ANNs."

Mary gave her all to keep the Supremes alive and on track.

Was this same amount of dedication from Diana and Mary applied to Cindy when she joined ? Did they likewise rehearse and rehearse and rehearse, sleep , and rehearse again ????


If so, how did they pull it off without Florence finding out??

[marybrewster]

Mary gave her all to keep the Supremes alive and on track.

Was this same amount of dedication from Diana and Mary applied to Cindy when she joined ? Did they likewise rehearse and rehearse and rehearse, sleep , and rehearse again ????


If so, how did they pull it off without Florence finding out??

I would think any rehearsing would have been done by Mary, and maybe Cholly? She knew the backgrounds, she knew the steps. What help would Diana have been?

I'd love to see a day to day calendar for those weeks or month of 1967 leading up to Flo's departure.

[floyjoy678]

I would think any rehearsing would have been done by Mary, and maybe Cholly? She knew the backgrounds, she knew the steps. What help would Diana have been?

I'd love to see a day to day calendar for those weeks or month of 1967 leading up to Flo's departure.

I'd love to see that too! I can only imagine it must have been a very hectic and stressful schedule. Rehearsing with Cindy during the day, recording with Marlene in the studio and then it's on stage with Flo at night.

I do believe Mary said that Diana helped some with training Cindy the choreography.

[Boogiedown]

I would think any rehearsing would have been done by Mary, and maybe Cholly? She knew the backgrounds, she knew the steps. What help would Diana have been?

I'd love to see a day to day calendar for those weeks or month of 1967 leading up to Flo's departure.

hmmm how does one practice backing someone up if that someone isn't there ?

then it was Mary specifically undermining Flo at the time?

[Ollie9]

hmmm how does one practice backing someone up if that someone isn't there ?

then it was Mary specifically undermining Flo at the time?

I do wonder had Cindy not been sequestered in the audience each night that Flo might not have acted as she did. She seemed to have settled down after all, and was reported happy to be back.
It must have put her under incredible pressure knowing there was someone in the audience waiting to take her place at any moment. A strategy it seems that in the end bore fruit.

[danman869]

hmmm how does one practice backing someone up if that someone isn't there ?

Maybe they turned on a reel-to-reel tape of one of their recent shows and Cindy danced and sang along to the background vocals done by Flo and Mary? It's not as though Diana had to be in the room performing for Cindy to be able to learn words and choreography.

[sup_fan]

hmmm how does one practice backing someone up if that someone isn't there ?

then it was Mary specifically undermining Flo at the time?

they're not backing up diana. they're singing an alternate vocal line against the orchestra. Diana could and would do different things with her lead vocals. Same with Jean. M and C typically were more limited in what they could do because their parts were more structured. so a lot of their rehearsal would be with the band. this would have been primarily when they were training cindy at the beginning of perhaps when they were introducing a new song into the act. once cindy was established and used to the anchor songs in the act, it would be less about learning a routine [[and therefore working separately from Diana) and more about rehearsing with new bands. the girls traveled with Gil and a core rhythm section but the orchestras would be picked up in each city. so they would have fast rehearsals with these professional musicians so that review the act and pieces, understand cues, etc.

[bradsupremes]

The '67 Copa show was recorded for Cindy to learn and practice the routines, not for a live album release as commonly believed.

It seems like everything unraveled rather quickly within the course of several weeks. Florence in her interview with Peter Benjamin in 1975 claimed Cindy was being groomed as her replacement for up to a year, but I honestly don't think Cindy came into the picture until April 1967. I'm still trying to figure out where everything falls into place. I'm sure she was being eyed earlier than April, but I honestly don't think Motown reached out to her until April when things rapidly deteriorated with Florence.

Winter-Early Spring 1967 - The ladies are on tour for a series of college and city concerts along with a few engagements in-between along with some studio work. If there was any specific incidents with Florence, we don't really know about them but I'm sure tensions were rising.

April 1967 - This is where it gets tricky. They finish up a gig at Eden Roc in early April and then an engagement at Twin Coaches in Pennsylvania. During this month, they film a promotional film for the United Foundation in the Brewster Projects. They then go on tour later in the month and this is where Florence gets drunk and sent home leaving Diana and Mary having to perform as a duo in New Orleans on April 23. They go back to Detroit as on April 26 Diana records some Disney material at Hitsville. They have their KHJ concert at the Hollywood Bowl in LA on April 29. So the question is... when did the infamous meeting at Berry's house take place? I suspect it took place between April 24-28. It makes sense because Florence doesn't do the Hollywood Bowl show and Cindy steps in within a few days notice to learn the show. It explains her absence. Because Cindy stepped in within a few days notice to do the show, she likely couldn't stay on and had to return to the Bluebelles which explains why Florence is brought back the following week. We know that by mid-May Cindy is at the Copa engagement in the audience studying the performance and used as a scare tactic Berry putting Florence on notice. Whether she was there for the entire engagement or when she had break in the Bluebelles touring schedule is unknown.

Florence is back with the group in early May as they do their Ed Sullivan Show appearance on May 7 so she would have been back within a few days before to learn the Millie/Rose/Mame routine. But then when they're back in Detroit, Florence misses the "Reflections" session so Marlene steps in and records with Mary. After that, Florence is back until the incident at the Flamingo when she's fired as Cindy steps in permanently.

[marybrewster]

hmmm how does one practice backing someone up if that someone isn't there ?

then it was Mary specifically undermining Flo at the time?

How do you think the fans have learned the oohs and aahs over the past 60 years? It's not rocket science.

[floyjoy678]

Brad I believe Mary and Diana wrote they started looking at Cindy to replace Flo in January of that year.

Also do you really think Cindy went back to the Bluebelles after the Hollywood Bowl gig? It had been reported in the media that Cindy replaced Flo and I'm sure it would have gotten back to them making it awkward for Cindy to return to them.

Didn't Marlene replace Flo at a show after the one where Diana and Mary performed as a duo?

As you said, it seems like everything deteriorated quickly.

[Boogiedown]

danman869:
Maybe they turned on a reel-to-reel tape of one of their recent shows and Cindy danced and sang along to the background vocals done by Flo and Mary? It's not as though Diana had to be in the room performing for Cindy to be able to learn words and choreography.

makes sense

Sup:
they're not backing up diana. they're singing an alternate vocal line against the orchestra. Diana could and would do different things with her lead vocals.

Ah, yes!

bradsupreme:

The '67 Copa show was recorded for Cindy to learn and practice the routines, not for a live album release as commonly believed

.
ah, ok!

How do you think the fans have learned the oohs and aahs over the past 60 years? It's not rocket science.

oh my! hee haw!

ollie:
I do wonder had Cindy not been sequestered in the audience each night that Flo might not have acted as she did. She seemed to have settled down after all, and was reported happy to be back.
It must have put her under incredible pressure knowing there was someone in the audience waiting to take her place at any moment. A strategy it seems that in the end bore fruit.

so Florence is aware of Cindy....knows she and Mary rehearse together, knows Cindy replaced her at the Hollywood Bowl. Knows who Cindy is.
They must've had a bodyguard accompanying Cindy!!

Sticky situation. I wonder if at some point Cindy said something as well.... like, I can't keep doing this ... Imagine being in her shoes and yanked around like that

[Ollie9]

makes sense




Ah, yes!
.
ah, ok!


oh my! hee haw!

so Florence is aware of Cindy....knows she and Mary rehearse together, knows Cindy replaced her at the Hollywood Bowl. Knows who Cindy is.
They must've had a bodyguard accompanying Cindy!!

Sticky situation. I wonder if at some point Cindy said something as well.... like, I can't keep doing this ... Imagine being in her shoes and yanked around like that

If a film ever were to be made, would make for a potentially dramatic scene with Flo fleeing the meeting at the BG mansion, only to collide with the woman who is being prepped to step into her stiletto’s. Sends chills.

[bradsupremes]

Brad I believe Mary and Diana wrote they started looking at Cindy to replace Flo in January of that year.

Also do you really think Cindy went back to the Bluebelles after the Hollywood Bowl gig? It had been reported in the media that Cindy replaced Flo and I'm sure it would have gotten back to them making it awkward for Cindy to return to them.

Didn't Marlene replace Flo at a show after the one where Diana and Mary performed as a duo?

As you said, it seems like everything deteriorated quickly.

I'm not exactly sure when Cindy left the Bluebelles. I honestly don't think Motown contacted her and brought her into the fold until April when things started to fall apart. Patti did an interview a few years ago and said they were performing in Cleveland when they got the news Cindy had left them, but I haven't been able to find a Cleveland gig for them. Florence said Cindy was there for the Copa engagement but then she wasn't sure where she went after that. It is possible she was traveling along and rehearsing behind the scenes during their engagements, but knowing Gordy, he would have made Cindy visible to Florence. It's very possible she left in April and then was brought along to be ready to go on at any moment.

[captainjames]

Interesting topic.... I have always wondered what Motown would have done with Cindy if Florence had got herself together and remained in the group. Cindy had never said what Motown said in regard to if Florence stayed and what Cindy's history would have been after leaving the Bluebelles.

[Ollie9]

Interesting topic.... I have always wondered what Motown would have done with Cindy if Florence had got herself together and remained in the group. Cindy had never said what Motown said in regard to if Florence stayed and what Cindy's history would have been after leaving the Bluebelles.

As far as BG was concerned Flo was out. I find it extremely hard to imagine Cindy would have been told her services were no longer needed after being asked to abandon her group and working her socks off in readiness to be a Supreme. Sorry my love, but cheers anyway.

[bradsupremes]

Dennis Edwards once said when he signed that the intention was that he would either be a replacement Temptation or Contour, depending on which group had an opening first. I want to say GC Cameron had a similar experience that he was earmarked to be a replacement Spinner. I honestly wouldn't be surprised that if Florence got herself together and no longer caused any issues and played the game, Cindy would have used elsewhere - a replacement Marvelette or Vandella or a Supreme when Diana left and Florence would become lead.

[captainjames]

Dennis Edwards once said when he signed that the intention was that he would either be a replacement Temptation or Contour, depending on which group had an opening first. I want to say GC Cameron had a similar experience that he was earmarked to be a replacement Spinner. I honestly wouldn't be surprised that if Florence got herself together and no longer caused any issues and played the game, Cindy would have used elsewhere - a replacement Marvelette or Vandella or a Supreme when Diana left and Florence would become lead.

I agree with you .... If Flo had got it together and played the game I think Mary and even Diana would have got on Flo's side to keep her. Berry didn't care as long as he pulled Diana out of that group. Sorry, to be so blunt but that's just my opinion. In the end it is said he basically washed his hands of the group so he didn't' care who was in that group after Diana left. Interesting thought and I wish I had asked Cindy that question.