Vandella's slump - what should have been released

[sup_fan]

we've discussed all sorts of top singles, alternate singles, etc with that group lead by Berry's former secretary with airs about her and a couple of her high school friends lolol

but what about Martha and the Vandellas?

I know that there were personal conflicts with Martha and Motown, within the Vandellas and of course her mental issues. So obviously those had an impact on things.

In regards to singles and released though, what might YOU have done differently?


1. I think Motown lost too many of her singles by doing too many double-sided releases. Love Makes me Do Foolish was buried on a b side. then they put both I Promise To Wait My Love and Forget Me Not out on a single. I think all 3 should have been their own A side

2. I like the "country soul" sounds she was doing in 67 and 68. but by Honey Love in 1969, I think it was getting old.

3. I Can't Dance is a hot song and had they not gotten things so jacked up with Syretta on it, it could have been big

4. for late 68, they should have used A Little Bit Of Heaven - what an AMAZING song. even though it seems a bit short and maybe not 100% complete, it's beautiful and would have been a great way to advance Martha into a new, mature sound. can't believe this was left in vaults

[midnightman]

I feel the same way about I Can't Dance as you did. What were they thinking putting Syreeta on it??? I did hear Martha didn't particularly like the song? So maybe that's why? Grasping straws on that.

On the double-sided singles, absolutely. People don't know MR&TV's had more potential big hits and it got wasted on Motown's attempt to stack a hit single on a potential hit. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't [[look at Mary Wells' double sided singles as another example of messing up what could've been a potential hit).

The country soul thing, I think Motown by '68 had a hard time wondering where MR&TV's were gonna go. They tried to make them as gritty as Aretha before realizing they had Gladys Knight & the Pips and the Temptations for that.

But I do agree I Promise to Wait My Love should've been a big hit for them [[as well as Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things). They messed up with those two completely.

[BayouMotownMan]

I Promise To Wait is a funky track...but not a single. Motown should have followed Honey Chile with Honey Love. Same producer, same funk. Sweet Darlin' and Taking My Love are great lp cuts but not singles. I Should Be Proud was a BIG mistake

[bradsupremes]

Up to 1966, I think Motown made the right decisions regarding Vandellas singles. I think "Spellbound" would have made a good single in early 1965. It's when you get into 1966 and after that Motown began picking the wrong songs for singles especially after 1967. I would have totally picked different songs for singles in 1969 and 1970. Here's how I would have played it.

1966
G-7053 "Can't Break The Habit" [[instead of "What Am I Gonna Do Without Your Love")

1967
G-7062 "Save Some Room In Your Heart For Me" or "Happiness Is Guaranteed" [[instead of "Love Bug Leave My Heart Alone")

1968
G-7070 "Won't It Be So Wonderful" [[instead of "I Promise To Wait My Love")

G-7075 I would have issued the second version of "I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playin'"

G-7080 "Loving You Is Sweeter Than Ever" [[instead of "Sweet Darlin'")

1969
G-7085 "I Love The Man" [[instead of "We've Got Honey Love")

G-7094 "Shoe Leather Expressway" [[instead of "Taking My Love And Leaving Me")

1970
G-7098 "Build Your Love On A Strong Foundation" [[instead of "I Should Be Proud")

G-7103 "Earthquake" [[instead of "I Gotta Let You Go")

1972
G-7718 "Benjamin" [[instead of "Tear It On Down")

[reese]

I think many of the songs on the LOST AND FOUND set might have done well if they had been released at the time, particularly STANDING OVATION and LET ME FALL IN LOVE WITH YOU.

Re I CAN'T DANCE, I must admit that I don't get the confusion over it. Before I ever heard the single, I read that Martha refused to do the chorus, only the verses, so Syreeta was called in. But to be honest, if I had not read that story, I would have thought nothing strange about the recording. I just would have figured that the Vandellas were singing the chorus. That said, I still think of it as a lost hit, along with IN AND OUT OF MY LIFE and BLESS YOU.

[luke]

Tear It On Down, if beefed up a little, could have been a big hit and if promoted properly.

[daviddesper]

I have listened to I Can't Dance 500 times over the years and I swear I only hear Martha. I don't doubt the validity of the story...I just can't hear it, which of course means they did a super job with what they were trying to do.

As for this whole line of discussion about what could have been or should have been a single, all I can do is sigh and ask once again, why am I the ONLY person in the world that worships "Tell Me I'll Never Be Alone?"

[bradsupremes]

This is what I don’t understand about the backstory on “I Can’t Dance...” Martha claims she didn’t like the song because it was “too personal” to her and so she never finished it. Deke claims he had to erase her part when re-editing the track for Quality Control and wanted to bring her in to do a dub-in, but scheduling prevented him from doing that so he brought in Syreeta. When the song gets released and Martha is upset. Now first, why is she upset over something she claims she never finished? Why not finish it initially when you were there as she claims? Second, her version of the story doesn’t bare out because not only did she record the full song, but she recorded it TWICE! Why go around saying you didn’t like the song and refuse to finish it when there’s audio proof you recorded the full song in two different versions?

[Motown Eddie]

I would've gone with "Hurt Real Good On A Bad Thing" or "Light My Fire" [[instead of "I Should Be Proud" which should've been saved as an album cut).

[RanRan79]

In regards to singles and released though, what might YOU have done differently?

I definitely would've put out "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things" as it's own A sided single. I think I would've released "Show Me the Way" as a single also. I'm surprised Motown didn't think it was a great idea to put "Leave It In the Hands of Love" out. Definitely a hit. "Sweet Darlin" is a real nice song but I never would've released it as a single. I may have released "You're the Loser Now", but I don't know if it's because I really believe it could've been a hit or if it's because I love that song so much.

[RanRan79]

Re I CAN'T DANCE, I must admit that I don't the confusion over it. Before I ever heard the single, I read that Martha refused to do the chorus, only the verses, so Syreeta was called in. But to be honest, if I had not read that story, I would have thought nothing strange about the recording. I just would have figured that the Vandellas were singing the chorus. That said, I still think of it as a lost hit, along with IN AND OUT OF MY LIFE and BLESS YOU.

I first heard "I Can't Dance" on the Live Wire set in the 90s. I think it was another year or two before I read Martha's book and her account of her issues with this song and what I heard and what I read didn't jive. Martha makes it seem like the song is some kind of duet between her "unfinished" vocal and Syreeta, but to my ears Syreeta sounds just another background singer doing her job on the chorus. IMO the controversy about this song might be the most lame of all the Motown song controversies. There really is nothing to see here.

[RanRan79]

As for this whole line of discussion about what could have been or should have been a single, all I can do is sigh and ask once again, why am I the ONLY person in the world that worships "Tell Me I'll Never Be Alone?"

I don't worship it, but it is a great song. It could've been a single with a different mix, IMO.

[reese]

I definitely would've put out "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things" as it's own A sided single. I think I would've released "Show Me the Way" as a single also. I'm surprised Motown didn't think it was a great idea to put "Leave It In the Hands of Love" out. Definitely a hit. "Sweet Darlin" is a real nice song but I never would've released it as a single. I may have released "You're the Loser Now", but I don't know if it's because I really believe it could've been a hit or if it's because I love that song so much.

I love all the songs you mentioned.

It must have been hard for Quality Control to pick which songs to release. There was just so much great material that mistakes were bound to be made.

[sup_fan]

her late 60s albums are a challenge for me. of course there are some amazing tracks. but there are quite a few duds. and for whatever reason, her viabrato started to get a bit out of control. sometimes she sounds a bit all over the place. And some of the tracks are less than inspired.

certainly this was beautifully corrected with Black Magic - great set all the way through. just wish more care had been put into Sugar and Natural.

[reese]

her late 60s albums are a challenge for me. of course there are some amazing tracks. but there are quite a few duds. and for whatever reason, her viabrato started to get a bit out of control. sometimes she sounds a bit all over the place. And some of the tracks are less than inspired.

certainly this was beautifully corrected with Black Magic - great set all the way through. just wish more care had been put into Sugar and Natural.

It took years for me to appreciate SUGAR AND SPICE and NATURAL RESOURCES. To this day, I rarely play NATURAL RESOURCES. It has some good songs but doesn't quite hang together for me.

By comparison, I really like SUGAR AND SPICE now. When I play it, I rarely skip a track, except maybe WHAT NOW MY LOVE. But songs like YOU'RE THE LOSER NOW, SHOE LEATHER EXPRESSWAY, and I CAN'T GET ALONG WITHOUT YOU are buried treasures for me.

[motony]

The BEST version of "I Can't Dance...." and would have been a hit is the original version without Syreeta, I don't know what Billie Jean Browns problem was, maybe she was jealous of Deke Richards getting the release, or didn't want Martha to have another hit. The best from Sugar N Spice was "It Ain't Like That" & I'm A Winner both Ashford & Simpson cuts really could have been strong releases by Martha & HER group.

[danman869]

Recorded in 1968 [[when they were really beginning to struggle), “I’ve Got To See You” is an unreleased favorite that I think should have been a single A-side. We’re i quality control, I might have suggested redoing the beginning of the track either with dialing, ringing sounds, and a sexy male, “Hello?” before bringing in Martha with her insistent, “Hello, Johnny? JUST [[<—another change I’d have added) listen, Johnny...” another option if timing was a factor would’ve been to change to the new [[in those days) push-button dialing [[with touch tones) and THEN “Hello?” “Hello, Johnny?” etc.

Other than that, I think it’s got a great hook and a good Motown flavor! It was a passed up opportunity. For the b-side, I would’ve used the previously unreleased, “A Little Bit Of Heaven [[On A Little Patch Of Earth). IMO, a pretty song with a very nice delivery...but not an A-side.

I love to blast this track!

[RanRan79]

I love all the songs you mentioned.

It must have been hard for Quality Control to pick which songs to release. There was just so much great material that mistakes were bound to be made.

I'm sure it was difficult decisions. But we also have to keep in mind that QC were just like us: they heard what they heard and based on their opinions the song was either released or it wasn't. So in a discussion that really comes down to everyone's personal opinion, the one fact is that if we replaced everyone in QC with everybody on SD, it would still be the same problem: some crap would make release while some treasures would be buried. So you speak truth Reese when you say they had a hard job. None of us could've done it any better.

[RanRan79]

Recorded in 1968 [[when they were really beginning to struggle), “I’ve Got To See You” is an unreleased favorite that I think should have been a single A-side. We’re i quality control, I might have suggested redoing the beginning of the track either with dialing, ringing sounds, and a sexy male, “Hello?” before bringing in Martha with her insistent, “Hello, Johnny? JUST [[<—another change I’d have added) listen, Johnny...” another option if timing was a factor would’ve been to change to the new [[in those days) push-button dialing [[with touch tones) and THEN “Hello?” “Hello, Johnny?” etc.

Other than that, I think it’s got a great hook and a good Motown flavor! It was a passed up opportunity. For the b-side, I would’ve used the previously unreleased, “A Little Bit Of Heaven [[On A Little Patch Of Earth). IMO, a pretty song with a very nice delivery...but not an A-side.

I love to blast this track!

Good track Danman. I could see this making some noise.

[sup_fan]

yeah I need to explore Sugar & Spice some more. I also went through the unreleased tracks I had and did a playlist of "Sugar & Spice Sessions" so that the lp, the single mixes, whatever single sides of that period not on the lp and the unreleased material is all together. sort of gives you a picture of what they were doing at the time.

I do think this set holds up better than Natural Resources.

here's an interesting idea - would be a challenge to put together. doing a playlist that puts a group's tracks into chronological order by recording date. talk about being able to really listen to the process of evolution!

[motony]

Martha, Lois & Sandy actually did "Soul Appeal" from Sugar N Spice on a TV show, leading me to think that was going to be their next 45 after "Taking My Love [[and Leaving Me)".

[johnny_raven]

Speaking of Sugar 'n' Spice, here's the French LP cover ...

[blackguy69]

Martha, Lois & Sandy actually did "Soul Appeal" from Sugar N Spice on a TV show, leading me to think that was going to be their next 45 after "Taking My Love [[and Leaving Me)".

They did it on Mike Douglas.

[Boogiedown]

Recorded in 1968 [[when they were really beginning to struggle), “I’ve Got To See You” is an unreleased favorite that I think should have been a single A-side.

hmmm .... seems like that melody later got reworked into??

[Circa 1824]

Nothing could have saved Martha and the girls. And, you can rightfully blame Diana Ross. Diana totally ecplised almost every other black female singer that most of them never had a chance.

[marybrewster]

I think Motown didn't know what to do with Martha just as much as Martha didn't know what to do with the Vandellas. In three releases over three years, you've got three different line ups:

Live 67 with Betty
Ridin' 68 with Lois
Sugar 69 with Sandy

Then you have Martha saying the 69 line up was the best looking of all the line ups; maybe, but were they the best sounding? They never achieved the same success as the Nettie/Roz/Betty years.

[midnightman]

The MR&TV's when Sandy and Lois joined were a shell of their former self.

Looks are everything but the nucleus [[which was of Martha, Annette, Roz and Betty) was gone.

We say things about the downfalls of the Supremes and Marvelettes but I think M&TV's/MR&TV's had a sharper downfall than the others because while those two others' were more gradual, MR&TV's lost their focus after 1967 [[especially after Betty's abrupt exit, Martha's nervous breakdown and the exit of Roz from the group; not to mention the exits of Mickey Stevenson and HDH). I mean the Marvelettes were still having hits with Smokey when MR&TV's stopped charting the top 40.

[bradsupremes]

Is there any recording of Lois and Sandy? Martha claims Sandy's first recording as a Vandella was "Something," but how do we know? I couldn't identify Lois or Sandy's voices or their blend.

I get a feeling that Martha's praises of Lois and Sandy as the best Vandellas was always an intended dig at Roz, Annette, and Betty. To me, the Vandellas were over in 1969. You can't have the Vandellas without Roz.

[TheMotownManiac]

No one knew or cared who The Vandellas were beyond the bg for “Martha”. From their terrible album sales one can conclude there was not much public interest invested into the group whoever they were. Martha was everything.

I Promise To Wait My Love is IMHO, absolutely the least commercial single they ever did bar none. It was definitely a nail in the coffin. By the time I Should Be Proud came out, they were toast. That single, with a rewrite for the into and first line, could have gone all the way with a lot of help, but they could barely get on TV....I learned of it from The Dating Game! It’s just a shame her big talent couldn’t get the right direction from Berry Gordy, Richard Perry OR Clive Davis. You’d think one of those three could have..........

my my lost hits:

Easily Persueded [[with the middle of the intro axed) Martha kills on this.

I’ve Given You The Best Years Of My Life

i never would have released In And Out Of My Life.

‘’Tear It On Down needed some help with added percussion during the chant - it was slightly dull and repitious. The rest of it was great. Martha tears up that entire album.

But if Bless You didn’t hit, nothing was going to. Deke should have sent it out again on Diana, JMC or Gladys. That was a hit if released on a viable act. Radio just wouldn’t touch Martha. Bless You hit 44 in straight sales on Cash Box, yet only 56 on Billboard which means it’s AirPlay was prolly close to #70. Shameful.

[midnightman]

^^ Yeah, that was definitely a dig at Roz, Annette and Betty.

I don't think Lois and Sandra ever sung a single note on a Vandellas recording. It was Martha and the Andantes for years [[and then probably Valerie Simpson and other session singers later on; not to mention Syreeta ALSO sang on Taking My Love and Leaving Me, which was also poorly produced). Martha was virtually on a solo career with two women fronting as "Vandellas" by name only.

I just remember seeing Headliners & Legends and seeing that clip of them doing that Taking My Love song and I remember going "what a downfall" and the worst was to come.

I do also wonder why after she left Motown, she could never get another hit. MCA and Arista didn't know what to do with its R&B artists, it seems. If you wasn't in Philadelphia International in the mid-70s or Casablanca, you were doomed, it seems. A deal with Capitol with someone who knew how to help promote an artist like Martha could've helped too as it did for Natalie Cole but maybe that's why Martha chose MCA and Arista?

Like Mary Wells, she was seen as a relic of golden times. Her time as a chart-making artist was only four years. :/ Blame it on fickle audiences, Martha's poor career choices and changing times, I guess.

[marybrewster]

It’s just a shame her big talent couldn’t get the right direction from Berry Gordy, Richard Perry OR Clive Davis. You’d think one of those three could have..........

Perhaps the answer is that Martha's talent wasn't that big. I mean no disrespect. But if three of the hottest owners/producers of the time couldn't get a hit.....

[marybrewster]

No one knew or cared who The Vandellas were beyond the bg for “Martha”. From their terrible album sales one can conclude there was not much public interest invested into the group whoever they were. Martha was everything.

I couldn't disagree more. "No one knew or cared who the Vandellas were" is a pretty big statement. And contrary to what you're saying, wouldn't their terrible album sales mean Martha wasn't quite "everything"?

[marybrewster]

I get a feeling that Martha's praises of Lois and Sandy as the best Vandellas was always an intended dig at Roz, Annette, and Betty.

Of course it was. Perhaps also Martha's attempt to bring more prominence to Sandy, but especially Lois.

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

^^ Yeah, that was definitely a dig at Roz, Annette and Betty.

I don't think Lois and Sandra ever sung a single note on a Vandellas recording. It was Martha and the Andantes for years [[and then probably Valerie Simpson and other session singers later on; not to mention Syreeta ALSO sang on Taking My Love and Leaving Me, which was also poorly produced). Martha was virtually on a solo career with two women fronting as "Vandellas" by name only.

I just remember seeing Headliners & Legends and seeing that clip of them doing that Taking My Love song and I remember going "what a downfall" and the worst was to come.

I do also wonder why after she left Motown, she could never get another hit. MCA and Arista didn't know what to do with its R&B artists, it seems. If you wasn't in Philadelphia International in the mid-70s or Casablanca, you were doomed, it seems. A deal with Capitol with someone who knew how to help promote an artist like Martha could've helped too as it did for Natalie Cole but maybe that's why Martha chose MCA and Arista?

Like Mary Wells, she was seen as a relic of golden times. Her time as a chart-making artist was only four years. :/ Blame it on fickle audiences, Martha's poor career choices and changing times, I guess.

I agree totally with that "The Vandellas" were only a name, behind them were different girls, session singers. You can see that in TV shows and performances too, the group often wear indivdual dresses, only in the beginning you see them as a group visional as the Supremes with the same dresses. Surley it can to do something with earthy sound of them, but I think it´s sign to see them not as a group

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

And we must remember The Vandellas were The Fayettes for Hattie Littles and The Beljeans for La Brenda Ben

[RanRan79]

I do also wonder why after she left Motown, she could never get another hit. MCA and Arista didn't know what to do with its R&B artists, it seems. If you wasn't in Philadelphia International in the mid-70s or Casablanca, you were doomed, it seems. A deal with Capitol with someone who knew how to help promote an artist like Martha could've helped too as it did for Natalie Cole but maybe that's why Martha chose MCA and Arista?

Like Mary Wells, she was seen as a relic of golden times. Her time as a chart-making artist was only four years. :/ Blame it on fickle audiences, Martha's poor career choices and changing times, I guess.

First I want to say kudos to everybody for not taking the bait [[y'all know what I'm referring to).

Midnight, that's always the question with some of our favorites: why do some succeed where others seem to fail? Talent wise, Martha was as good as anyone. With the Vandellas and on Motown she certainly proved that her voice could sale a record. [[Martha's voice was as much an attraction as the Funk Bros/Wrecking Crew and Vandellas/Andantes and the lyrics on the various hits IMO.) So the question is always why didn't her voice translate to hits post Motown.

I'm going to be honest, of Martha's solo material, I've heard some really good stuff but mostly I don't think anything she did was going to knock the public out. She did work that critically people listened to and were wowed by, but not much that would have gotten radio airplay and made people go "I have to buy that single!". Voices have to be matched up perfectly with the right stuff that jives with the public, no matter how good of a singer a person is. That's why it took Aretha several years of releases to become a household name, when she hooked up with Jerry Wexler for production. It took Diana [[w/ the Supremes) a few years to wow the public, when she sang an HDH cut. Another thing Aretha and Diana [[w/ and w/out the Supremes) have in common is that throughout their career [[well into the 80s) they consistently and inconsistently found a thing that worked. I don't think Martha ever really found that thing that worked after her time at Motown.

[floyjoy678]

I don't know that it was necessarily a dig at them. Martha said she thought visually Sandy and Lois were the best Vandellas and I have to agree with her. Vocally what I've heard from them was very typical nothing special. Vocally it was Annette and Roz hands down. Roz with Betty, they weren't really in sync with one another. Who knows of Roz with Lois, that line up was so short lived. Some say they do the background for Honey Chile but it sounds like the Andantes to me.

I think I love the man and easily persuaded were missed opportunities. I loved in and out of my life. I felt that should have been a bigger hit as well as I can't dance to that music.

[RanRan79]

I think "In and Out of My Life" is a fantastic song. If promoted properly it could have been a big hit.

[floyjoy678]

I feel Martha should have ditched the Vandellas after she gave Roz the boot and just went solo. Black Magic would have been a great debut solo album.

[midnightman]

I don't know that it was necessarily a dig at them. Martha said she thought visually Sandy and Lois were the best Vandellas and I have to agree with her. Vocally what I've heard from them was very typical nothing special. Vocally it was Annette and Roz hands down. Roz with Betty, they weren't really in sync with one another. Who knows of Roz with Lois, that line up was so short lived. Some say they do the background for Honey Chile but it sounds like the Andantes to me.

I think I love the man and easily persuaded were missed opportunities. I loved in and out of my life. I felt that should have been a bigger hit as well as I can't dance to that music.

Martha, Annette and Roz, there was real magic in that lineup. I was shocked with how quickly things changed after 1963. It seemed after Betty joined, more singers began filling in parts? I wonder why? Like on Dancing, either Mickey Stevenson or Marvin Gaye [[who also played drums on Dancing and also was its co-writer) were singing with Roz, Betty [[and Martha?) and then on Nowhere, the Andantes were allegedly on it [[with Roz and Betty of course)? But Betty did held her own for the three years she was with them. Something Lois [[and later Sandra) couldn't do because they were basically having Martha record with session singers after that.

[floyjoy678]

Nowhere to run is Roz, Betty and Ivy Jo Hunter per Roz and Martha.

[midnightman]

Nowhere to run is Roz, Betty and Ivy Jo Hunter per Roz and Martha.

Oh OK! Thanks for clarifying that. I was always confused when I would hear the bg's.

[bradsupremes]

Roz and Lois do backgrounds on “Honey Chile” and “Show Me The Way.”

[motony]

a lot of the times its the business aspect outside the studio that determines what gets airplay, who gels with what label ect. talent takes a backseat many times.

[midnightman]

a lot of the times its the business aspect outside the studio that determines what gets airplay, who gels with what label ect. talent takes a backseat many times.

That reminds me of what the late Bobbie Smith said in the Spinners documentary that talent is only, what, like 10% of what makes one a success like if a label doesn't support you or doesn't get smart in how to promote you, you're done even if your record is really good.

[motony]

I've even heard of label promotion people being paid under the table by another label to NOT promote a record. I mean all kinds of crazy crap.

[midnightman]

^ It doesn't surprise me reading the history of record labels. Especially in THOSE DAYS. A hot a$$ mess.

[1st lady of motown]

Is there any recording of Lois and Sandy? Martha claims Sandy's first recording as a Vandella was "Something," but how do we know? I couldn't identify Lois or Sandy's voices or their blend.

I get a feeling that Martha's praises of Lois and Sandy as the best Vandellas was always an intended dig at Roz, Annette, and Betty. To me, the Vandellas were over in 1969. You can't have the Vandellas without Roz.

You can hear them live on the Mike Douglas performances from 68 & 69 [[Copa Medley). Not to undermine Roz or anyone else but you can have Vandellas without her. The Vandellas were not over in 69 at all if you watch their Soul Train performance you can clearly see they were still fabulous. I have been reading this form for many years and never joined because I did not want to make enemies, but to say that without Roz is just so untrue and the statement in the next post of by the time I Should Be Proud came out they were toast made me join so I can have my say. Just because a song does not chart high doesn't mean it isn't a good song. I have been a true motown fan of the Artist and Groups as a whole not only of the lead singer. A true fan of Martha Reeves & The Vandellas R-E-S-P-E-C-T-S ALL of them Martha, Annette, Rosalind, Betty Lois and Sandy!!! And the same for The Supremes Diana, Mary, Florence, Cindy, Jean, Lynda Scherrie AND Susaye