Lynda, Jean and Mary

[captainjames]

Every "independent" source I have seen denied Flo looked fat at their final shows in Vegas. And their reviews were glowing!! None mentioned the ridiculous" Flo put her tummy" out episode. How slowly the Motown myths die!

Actually, I believe Flo has been recorded in Peter's book as this incident really happening.

[nomis]

This a complex issue,It wasnt one event but a chain of events some of them are -

Flo challenging Berry over the Andantes being used on "The Happening",Berry backed down and wiped their vocals
The drink throwing incident at 20 grand
Many of the dresses not being able to be used because of Flos weight gain
The constant touring and apperances - all three were running on empty
Diana basically had annorexia,Which only made Flo look bigger
The girls not talking to each other about issues,just barking at each other in between gigs
They were all going out and partying after shows -They were Supremes there was always a buffet and drink being offered.
Dating Tommy and drinking,Flo wouldnt back down and tow the line
Cindy popping up in the audience with a pen and notebook in hand
Berry and Diana arriving and departing together
The name change to Diana Ross and The Supremes
Although it isnt documented much there where times when Diana and Mary performed as a duo,Flo just didnt show
Discovering on national tv there were "two young ladies ready to stand in" for Flo and Mary
The fans pitting which Supreme was best and forming cliques around their favourites..
...add all these together and you get a volatile mix of trouble

[captainjames]

I would like to add one more if I could, No one [[except Flo's mother) would side with Flo. Everyone turned away and would not stand with her. I am sure this must have made her really angry.

[topdiva1]

In order for Diana Ross to move ahead - and for Mary Wilson to remain a fixture within the Supremes - Flo had to go. It was not likely her weight at all - and you all know that - it was her mouth and her crusade for fairness. Both Diana and Mary just watched her get fired, and some reports say with glee. Neither one of them from that day to this gave a true damn about Flo Ballard. But to be a real woman and admit that it would not look good - and those girls are about looking good.

[nomis]

not quite true Captain,But a good point - at least Berrys sister was telling Flo he couldnt kick her out and that she should stay..and flo was weighing up that advice but decided she had no fight left in her..and one other point -
Flo was close to her family and homesick,she was always on the phone to them

[topdiva1]

not quite true Captain,But a good point - at least Berrys sister was telling Flo he couldnt kick her out and that she should stay..and flo was weighing up that advice but decided she had no fight left in her..and one other point -
Flo was close to her family and homesick,she was always on the phone to them

Still in all FLO WAS FIRED BY GORDY.

[nomis]

yes but Gordy,Motown,Diana or Mary didnt come out and say she was fired..they said she was tired and needed a break..they said she wanted to settle down and have a family...If there had been more of a stink over Flo not being in the group no more their publicity line would allow her to come back into the fold..they were very,very canny how they handled the situation...

[marv2]

I would like to add one more if I could, No one [[except Flo's mother) would side with Flo. Everyone turned away and would not stand with her. I am sure this must have made her really angry.

That is not true. There were many people that were on Florence's side. Unfortunately they were not in a position to really do anything to help her at Motown. It was Berry Gordy's company. They sided with Flo, but those that were working for the company kept silent for obvious reasons.

[marv2]

Still in all FLO WAS FIRED BY GORDY.

Yeah, I don't know why he keeps talking about "she left", like she just quit her job, up and abandoned the top group in the country! LOL!!!!!

[marv2]

This is what Diana Ross said about Florence Ballard "leaving" the group:

http://archives.cbc.ca/programs/243-15080/page/1/

[nomis]

I wonder what would have been said if he fronted at the funeral..he didnt have the nerve and Diana shouldered the blame..maybe its best he didnt show up- things could have got uglier than they already were....

[marv2]

I wonder what would have been said if he fronted at the funeral..he didnt have the nerve and Diana shouldered the blame..maybe its best he didnt show up- things could have got uglier than they already were....

Remember it was in Detroit, it could have become a criminal investigation scene! LOL!

[nomis]

Ive always wanted to know whose car got their windows smashed in? was it Dianas?

[marv2]

Ive always wanted to know whose car got their windows smashed in? was it Dianas?

It was just a big mess. All local TV news programs at that time just showed masses of people surrounding the church, people everywhere.

[nomis]

..it was nearly a riot by all accounts,Church attendants grabbing speared wooden sticks and lunging them at the crowd to keep them back..people wailing,screaming,fainting,people fighting..cheering for Diana..booing for Diana..people were cussing in that church..Flo deserved better

[marv2]

..it was nearly a riot by all accounts,Church attendants grabbing speared wooden sticks and lunging them at the crowd to keep them back..people wailing,screaming,fainting,people fighting..cheering for Diana..booing for Diana..people were cussing in that church..Flo deserved better

I don't remember any cursing in the church and I am not kidding. I don't remember who reported that but they were wrong. Only a part of the service got a little out of hand [[the first part), but the Reverand C.L. Franklin got and kept things under control through most of the very sad service. All of Motown that could be there was there that day.

[marv2]

Here is Jet Magazine's coverage of the funeral, although both the Detroit Free Press, the Detroit News and even the Michigan Chronicle did more in depth reports. WXYZ Channel 7 Detroit stayed on the scene reporting from start to finish.

http://tinyurl.com/37pnquj

[supremesouluk2]

What other gowns, if any, were made during the Jean, Mary & Lynda era of the group?

[topdiva1]

Ive always wanted to know whose car got their windows smashed in? was it Dianas?

I believe it was Miss Ross limo.

[sup_fan]

from the list of 120+ outfits i've noted for the group over the years, I only am aware of a couple that were specifically made for the MJL lineup.

the Tropical Lilac gowns on this thread

the pink, blue and red chiffon outfits worn on the Kate Smith Special

a set i've called the "coconut grove gowns" - these are some puffy, floral patterned atrocities the girls had made specifically for their tour at the Coconut Grove in LA. apparently they only wore them that 1 time

the dark purple/burgundy gowns from the short clip of the girls singing "Lean on Me" on Flip Wilson.

the white bugle bead gowns were relatively new when Lynda joined the group. I think they got those in late 71 or so. have 1 pic of MJC in them onstage at the Frontier and doing Day By Day from Godspell. since godspell opened off broadway in May 71 [[according to wikipedia) i'm assuming that by the time it hit big and the girls had a chance to incorporate a song into their act, it would have to be late 71 if not early 72. these gowns are among the most expensive of the groups history - right up there with the the Mike Travis and Bob Mackie ones from the DRATS era

[marv2]

I believe it was Miss Ross limo.

But at least she got away before they could get her. I think that was why she didn't go to the cemetary.

[captainjames]

from the list of 120+ outfits i've noted for the group over the years, I only am aware of a couple that were specifically made for the MJL lineup.

the Tropical Lilac gowns on this thread

the pink, blue and red chiffon outfits worn on the Kate Smith Special

a set i've called the "coconut grove gowns" - these are some puffy, floral patterned atrocities the girls had made specifically for their tour at the Coconut Grove in LA. apparently they only wore them that 1 time

the dark purple/burgundy gowns from the short clip of the girls singing "Lean on Me" on Flip Wilson.

the white bugle bead gowns were relatively new when Lynda joined the group. I think they got those in late 71 or so. have 1 pic of MJC in them onstage at the Frontier and doing Day By Day from Godspell. since godspell opened off broadway in May 71 [[according to wikipedia) i'm assuming that by the time it hit big and the girls had a chance to incorporate a song into their act, it would have to be late 71 if not early 72. these gowns are among the most expensive of the groups history - right up there with the the Mike Travis and Bob Mackie ones from the DRATS era

The white bugle bead outfits were da bomb !!! The Ladies looked so great in these. This is when I really first noticed how pretty Lynda was.

[topdiva1]

Jean, Mary, and Lynda - where not the best grouping - Jean too boring on stage - Lynda - too over the top - and Mary trying to counter balance the two - plus Jean and Lynda reportedly questioned Mary's appeal and vocal ability - THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG

[captainjames]

Yeah Lynda was looking good at this time.

[phyl]

Jean, Mary, and Lynda - where not the best grouping - Jean too boring on stage - Lynda - too over the top - and Mary trying to counter balance the two - plus Jean and Lynda reportedly questioned Mary's appeal and vocal ability - THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG

you got that rihgt mary wilson is the supreme supreme but i lvoe jean terrrell too but i dont like that linday lawrence she pissess me off she neeeds to start acitng right.

[marv2]

jean, mary, and lynda - where not the best grouping - jean too boring on stage - lynda - too over the top - and mary trying to counter balance the two - plus jean and lynda reportedly questioned mary's appeal and vocal ability - they have been proven wrong

Deadly Wrong! LOL!!!!

[captainjames]

In fact Lynda is the one who went to Stevie Wonder for the song "Bad Weather" if I remember correctly. It was almost like Steve was writing the song about the Supremes and Motown instead of two lovers.

[midnightman]

That was a troubled grouping from day one. That said I loved their performance of "Bad Weather" on Soul Train.

[captainjames]

Yes Jean and Lynda were definitely two head strong, talented Lead singers.

[supremesouluk2]

That was a troubled grouping from day one. That said I loved their performance of "Bad Weather" on Soul Train.

Why was it a troubled grouping from day one? Can you elaborate?

[marv2]

Yes Jean and Lynda were definitely two head strong, talented Lead singers.

Mary Wilson was also a lead singer going all the way back to the Primettes days.

[midnightman]

Why was it a troubled grouping from day one? Can you elaborate?

It didn't last long, one.
Two, Jean was tired of being in the group.
Three, Lynda was so distressed over "Bad Weather" flopping that she left.

----
Maybe that doesn't fully explain it but I think those are the primary reasons.

[midnightman]

Yes Jean and Lynda were definitely two head strong, talented Lead singers.

Lynda did a convincing lead of "Stoned Love" when she, Cindy and Mary performed in Hawaii from the audio I heard.

[sup_fan]

i think the MJL situation was a result of a lot of issues. mary and jean's relationship was starting to break down by this point. partly because of the stress and strain caused by the growing disinterest from motown but also because the 2 had quite different views of what the group should be and stand for. mary is more in the glamour girl image. jean wanted to break away from that. mary also began to realize that if the group were to continue, she had to play more of a leadership role than she had in the DRATS days. jean is also quite self-willed and so now you have an issue of two people butting heads. cindy was able to help buffer this a bit. lynda being new, wasn't able to. plus she also had her own ideas about potential direction for the group. she wanted it to be more of a three-way [[get your minds out of the gutters!! lol) where all 3 women were leading and all. mary was more interested in jean being the main lead with her as secondary and girl 3 simply as background.

MJC had tried some different material and shows during their years. when lynda joined, they were still working with some of this however steam was running out. management thought, hey we've been trying these other things and they've not really worked. perhaps we should go back to the DRATS formula and use that material and show. hence the poor lineup of material on the Live IN Japan lp. previously MJC had done more soulful and even gospel-ish material. Love train segueing into O Happy Day, etc. but TCB, Somewhere, showtune medleys, etc. that was right out of the DRATS mentality and it didn't work. and jean did NOT like it either.

so problems compounding on problems

[rod_rick]

I wonder if Cindy had stayed, would they have reverted back to that show tune TCB material

[marv2]

It didn't last long, one.
Two, Jean was tired of being in the group.
Three, Lynda was so distressed over "Bad Weather" flopping that she left.

----
Maybe that doesn't fully explain it but I think those are the primary reasons.

True, it [[that grouping) didn't last long. I don't believe that it was suppose to.

Jean says she didn't want to leave the Supremes, but she did want to leave Motown as she wasn't happy with the way things were being handled as far as the group was concerned. Years later she said [[on her DVD) that she didn't leave the Supremes, that by time she looked up, Mary had hired a new girl for the group [[Scherrie Payne). I just think she and Mary Wilson were not communicating properly at that time.

Lynda wasn't that distressed over the lack of success of "Bad Weather" [[she may have been pissed because she thought she would get to do the lead on that record seeing that her brother, Ira co-wrote it). She left when she got pregnant. She had become a problem long before she "left", hehehehe. She wasn't all that popular internally. When she threw that shoe at Richard Street, she should have been gone then! LOL!!!!

[topdiva1]

Yes Jean and Lynda were definitely two head strong, talented Lead singers.

As was Mary Wilson - Internally it appears that Lynda and Jean just teamed up and tried to run Mar and The Supremes. . What they did not take into account was - Mr.Pedro Ferrer.

[sup_fan]

frankly i don't really buy the line from Jean saying she looked up and had suddenly been replaced. Mary didn't have the authority [[at that point) to fire Jean as Jean had a contract with Motown. Now when Scherrie, the prodigal Cindy and Susaye joined, they had contracts with Supremes Inc, Mary's company. Not sure about Lynda. but jean was definitely signed to Motown as a Supreme. not personally sure of the length of her contract. she basically stayed for 4 years - so i'm guessing that either her contract was up in the summer of 73 and she simply didn't renew or else she asked berry/motown to be released.

Lynda did not leave at the exact moment of Jean. After the group's last performances in Aug 73 at Magic Mountain, there was some down time until the next dates which i believe were in late Oct. jean was gone and lynda was preg but still, technically, around. mary may have been considering replacing lynda but that wasn't definite just yet. Mary was in cahoots already with pedro and he was definitely influencing the situation. I believe Cindy was starting to come back into the picture and Lynda went to mary's house to talk about what's going to happen. at that time Lynda really got a chance to meet pedro and realized that he was going to be heavily involved [[true he wasn't the manager yet but he was definitely guiding mary). she immediately saw through that facade and decided she wanted nothing to do with pedro. I don't know if she just said goodbye and that's it or if she said i'll stay but no pedro - don't know.

[sup_fan]

i too wonder what might have happened had Cindy stayed in the group. certainly don't blame her for leaving but it appears it was right at a pretty critical time. they had just released Floy Joy - both the single and the lp. after Touch [[both single and lp) bombed this was a much needed redemption on the charts for them. but it seems that the air was let out of the balloon after this. Wonder if motown started to get cold feet with another personnel change and pulled back even MORE on promotional spending, landing tv spots, etc. I haven't heard of any US tv performance of Auto Sunshine. that big tour of Australia and all was also cancelled. Jean was sick and missed performances. and if troubles between Mary and Jean were becoming known outside of the group, all of this could have scared off what little promo and support the group was getting. In Mary's book, she mentioned that she had suspicions regarding Jean's illness and why she missed those Hawaii and Copa performances. clearly some significant problems here.

So had Cindy stayed, would there have maybe been a bit more promotion of the subsequent Floy Joy singles? had Automatically Sunshine been promoted and performed on tv, would that have charted a bit higher? maybe in the teens rather than the 30s? would that have kept their recording reputation intact and then Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love have done better and then maybe no Jimmy Webb project at all? I realize a lot of speculation here. I do think Auto Sun should have charted considerably higher. not a #1 single but better than barely top 40. Sweet Sweet Love is pretty good - again, not a chart topper. the live version has so much more pep and spirit. maybe they needed to funk it up a little more and speed it up

[midnightman]

You could relate it to too quick personnel changes, a changing record industry and issues in the group that led to the group falling apart slowly but surely.

[marv2]

As was Mary Wilson - Internally it appears that Lynda and Jean just teamed up and tried to run Mar and The Supremes. . What they did not take into account was - Mr.Pedro Ferrer.

and he was the HAMMER!

[midnightman]

No I think Lynda and Jean were aware about Pedro...

[marv2]

frankly i don't really buy the line from Jean saying she looked up and had suddenly been replaced. Mary didn't have the authority [[at that point) to fire Jean as Jean had a contract with Motown. Now when Scherrie, the prodigal Cindy and Susaye joined, they had contracts with Supremes Inc, Mary's company. Not sure about Lynda. but jean was definitely signed to Motown as a Supreme. not personally sure of the length of her contract. she basically stayed for 4 years - so i'm guessing that either her contract was up in the summer of 73 and she simply didn't renew or else she asked berry/motown to be released.

Lynda did not leave at the exact moment of Jean. After the group's last performances in Aug 73 at Magic Mountain, there was some down time until the next dates which i believe were in late Oct. jean was gone and lynda was preg but still, technically, around. mary may have been considering replacing lynda but that wasn't definite just yet. Mary was in cahoots already with pedro and he was definitely influencing the situation. I believe Cindy was starting to come back into the picture and Lynda went to mary's house to talk about what's going to happen. at that time Lynda really got a chance to meet pedro and realized that he was going to be heavily involved [[true he wasn't the manager yet but he was definitely guiding mary). she immediately saw through that facade and decided she wanted nothing to do with pedro. I don't know if she just said goodbye and that's it or if she said i'll stay but no pedro - don't know.

I think they were going to kick her ass out one way or the other . Whether she went along with the program or not, she was a goner. You see management at Motown as well as Mary's personal friends like Cholly Atkins were telling Mary "things" about Ms. Lawrence. They knew that she was a part of this plan to leave Motown and they did not like it or her one bit! It also didnt help her case that she was making demands for more money and a real share in the group. This was from a woman that was , as I understand it, was still in her probationary period. This is from a woman that had not sung on ANY of the group's hit records and should have been happy just to be there!

[marv2]

No I think Lynda and Jean were aware about Pedro...

They were aware......but they were not AWARE! They did not know who they were going to be dealing with. He was NOT a punk........hehehehehe!

[luke]

Its not a coincidence that the Supremes rebounded when Cindy rejoined. And she is all over High Energy, as she was on Floy Joy. Hmmmm, pretty clear isnt it?

[marv2]

Its not a coincidence that the Supremes rebounded when Cindy rejoined. And she is all over High Energy, as she was on Floy Joy. Hmmmm, pretty clear isnt it?

Definitely clear, clear as rain water and great point!

[jobeterob]

It wasn't much of a rebound in the end; not a Supremes style rebound; Walking barely scratched the Pop Top 40; the album did less; and the group was kaput the following year. Face it men, without Diana they were just another group - not even of the quality of Martha and the Vandellas, the Pointer Sisters, the Emotions or the Marvelettes.

[marv2]

It wasn't much of a rebound in the end; not a Supremes style rebound; Walking barely scratched the Pop Top 40; the album did less; and the group was kaput the following year. Face it men, without Diana they were just another group - not even of the quality of Martha and the Vandellas, the Pointer Sisters, the Emotions or the Marvelettes.

Do you wear a hearing aid or something. Were you around and paying attention in the 70's? They rebounded splendidly to the point where you didn't even miss the ones that were no longer in the group. Mary would say "Hi, We're The Supremes" and all the fans would accept them whoever was in the group at the time.

The Supremes post Diane were head and shoulders about ALL those groups you list and in EVERY department. I've enjoyed all of those groups but they did not exceed the Supremes in any way. This is why you have dozens of ongoing discussions on this forum about them and NONE for these other groups.

"Without Diana , they were just another group"......Then explain to me what is Diane's problem? Seems to me without Berry guiding the way that she has been without hits for a very long time. You have to face it ,she did not make or break the Supremes. There were a lot more folks and elements involved than just her.

[midnightman]

I don't know about that. Every time I come here, whenever the Supremes are brought up, it's more about whatever drama went on with which member. I guess the other groups didn't have that problem lol

[midnightman]

Of course the Marvelettes and Vandellas were kaput by 1972 and the Pointers and Emotions didn't make a splash until much later [[when the Supremes disbanded).