Did Norman Whitfield Take Too Much Credit For Himself??

[mickeymac]

Make no mistake about it the man was talented and his work with the Temps are some of my favorites.

That said on the Masterpiece LP his picture is way bigger than the Temps.

Also on the Solid RockLP all the musicians and engineers are given credit [[which is a great thing), but nowhere on that LP are the Temps themselves -Otis Williams, Melvin Franklin, Dennis Edward, Richard Street and Damon Harris-mentioned by name.

Whats your take??

[marv2]

As Otis has said, by that time they were becoming "The Norman Whitfield Singers"! When it gets to that point, the singers are no longer as important [[to the producer!). Have you ever checked out the Temptations early 1976 album "Wings of Love". Although, it was not produced by Norman [[Jeffrey Bowen produced it), you have a situation where mainly the lead singer is used on the recordings [[in this example it was Dennis Edwards) and rest of the group was replaced by anonymous session singers.

[soulster]

Around this time, Leonard Caston was getting an almost double billing on the Eddie Kendricks solo albums. That Norman Whitfield got big credit on "Masterpiece" sounds like it could have been Motown's doing more than Whitfield's doing. But, it's also no secret that the Tempts were upset with Whitfield's "masterpieces" that didn't always include them. I don't know all the inside stuff, but this album was recorded just after the time Motown settled H-D-H, wasnt it? Perhaps Motown was overly sensitive to the producers and writers, or the producers and writers used it to gain clout over Motown.

The Tempts probably changed personnel so much around that time that they didn't get their names on the sleeve for that reason.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

[marv2]

That's a pretty astute observation Soulster. I would tend to agree with most of what you said. There was always this unspoken attitude that the company was more important than the artists and somewhere in middle the idea crept in that the writers and the producers where more important than the artists. Afterall, "Motown" was a very identifiable brand. They could replace group members [[especially if they were not writing their own material) at will.

[soulster]

There was always this unspoken attitude that the company was more important than the artists and somewhere in middle the idea crept in that the writers and the producers where more important than the artists. Afterall, "Motown" was a very identifiable brand. They could replace group members [[especially if they were not writing their own material) at will.

The fact that Motown labeled the game players on the Jackson 5 albums [["The Corporation" tm) until 1972 tells me that this was absolutely the case. Until the settlement, the message could also have been that the company was bigger than the producers and writers, even though they almost always got label credit.

[marv2]

Look how they handled the Funk Brothers. They played on more hit records than any other musicians in the history of music , yet they did not get ANY label credit until the 70's. It took another 25 or more years for them to get recognition World-wide.

[Motown_M_1056]

Make no mistake about it the man was talented and his work with the Temps are some of my favorites.

That said on the Masterpiece LP his picture is way bigger than the Temps.

Also on the Solid RockLP all the musicians and engineers are given credit [[which is a great thing), but nowhere on that LP are the Temps themselves -Otis Williams, Melvin Franklin, Dennis Edward, Richard Street and Damon Harris-mentioned by name.

Whats your take??

It didn't start out that way. Norman Whitfield was always behind other producers at Motown usually Smokey, Holland-Dozier-Holland or whoever else was on a hot streak. It was very competitive. Productions by HDH and Smokey were topping the charts, while Norman was given The Velvelettes, Marvin Gaye, Marvelettes or Gladys Knight the Pips to work with, but he was consistent and his productions were good, but others were getting the praise. I think it made Norman Whitfield work harder and more determined. And when H-D-H begab their work stoppage and Smokey was busy with the Miracles and company business, Whitfield stepped his game up and began delivering the hits. He formed a partnership with Barrett Strong and hits began coming for the Temptations. When soul music changed and became more rock influenced, Whitfield was on top of the trend. After H-D-H left, he began setting the pace at Motown. It was his turn.

Whitfield and Strong got attention from rock writers. but they didn't get their picture on a Temptations' LP until Sky's the Limit. After Barrett Strong left, Whitfield's productions became more elaborate, eccentric and experimental. By that time, it was a producer's game. Other producers like Richard Perry and Phil Ramone were getting as much attention as the artists they produced. That's when the rock journalists started with "the Norman Whitfield Singers" thing. Did it get out of hand? Possibly. But Norman Whitfield earned it.

[soulster]

Look how they handled the Funk Brothers. They played on more hit records than any other musicians in the history of music , yet they did not get ANY label credit until the 70's. It took another 25 or more years for them to get recognition World-wide.

To be fair, did the Bar-Kays or the Mar-Keys get credit for all the hit records they played on? Did the Wrecking Crew get credit on all the records they did? So, I don't think it was unique to Motown. It's just the way things were done until the 70s., when studio cats were contracted out.

[soulster]

When soul music changed and became more rock influenced, Whitfield was on top of the trend. After H-D-H left, he began setting the pace at Motown.

To me, much of Whitfield's music had an edge in the mid-late 60s. It seems like the time was ripe for where he wanted to take music. Where H-D-H was still working on the three-minute pop single, in the 70s, he was taking it many steps further. He was no doubt influenced by the sounds of The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, George Clinton, and the Isley Brothers. The Tempts were the perfect vehicle, I understand from what i've read that the Tempts wanted to return to soulful ballads in the 70s.

[Starguard4]

To me, much of Whitfield's music had an edge in the mid-late 60s....... no doubt influenced by the sounds of The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, George Clinton, and the Isley Brothers.

And, obviously, Sly & The Family Stone.

[marv2]

To be fair, did the Bar-Kays or the Mar-Keys get credit for all the hit records they played on? Did the Wrecking Crew get credit on all the records they did? So, I don't think it was unique to Motown. It's just the way things were done until the 70s., when studio cats were contracted out.

To be fair...... none of it was fair! I understand the practice, the effort to prevent losing valuable musicians to the competition ,etc. But this question about Norman? Sure he was a bit heavy handed; the more success he achieved with the Temptations, but I don't think he had total say over things such as his picture being displayed on a few of their album covers. Motown may have agreed to it in order to not only recognize him, but also to keep him happy.

HDH had their names and pictures on one of the Supremes albums [["The Supremes Sing Holland-Dozier-Holland") so it wasn't a new practice by the time Norman and the Temptations released "Masterpiece".

[topdiva1]

Norman Whitfield was great - and made lot's of money for himself, Motown, and The Temptations, among others. He did take credit for his work, as he should, but no more than others.

[paladin]

Genius is as Genius does......

[arrr&bee]

Well as for the[solid rock]lp,heck the temps picture is right there on the cover,although some folks at that time may not have regonized the two newbies-damon harris,richard street,as for masterpiece it was more than likely motown's decision about norman's pic!

[mickeymac]

To be fair, did the Bar-Kays or the Mar-Keys get credit for all the hit records they played on? Did the Wrecking Crew get credit on all the records they did? So, I don't think it was unique to Motown. It's just the way things were done until the 70s., when studio cats were contracted out.

Booker T. & The MGs and the Memphis Horns did get some credit on the Stax records, and the Muscle Shoals musicians got credit on Wilson Pickett and Aretha Franklin records. However several other labels back in the 60's didnt credit their musicians.

[mickeymac]

Also as talented and as great as Norman Whitfield was, I think some of the artists werent too keen on him using the same songs on different acts, and then extending them lenghth wise with a different performer. That said several songwriters at .Motown had tried and recorded their songs on several artists.

[soulster]

Booker T. & The MGs and the Memphis Horns did get some credit on the Stax records, and the Muscle Shoals musicians got credit on Wilson Pickett and Aretha Franklin records. However several other labels back in the 60's didnt credit their musicians.

I don't recall seeing either band in credits until the late 60s.

[jillfoster]

As far as I'm concerned, if your'e a singer, and you feel your producer or writers get too much credit, write your own songs. simple as that.

[pshark]

No its not as simple as that. The producer or record label has final say on what songs gets put on an album

[nomis]

Berry treated negotiations like a poker game - and sometimes he lost his hand- letting Michael Jackson sign to Epic was a major mistake,Dealing with producers demands was a game of poker - like the time Masser wiped a mix of a Diana single Berry wanted released and Masser hated - he laughed at Massers audacity cos he was beat..sure Norman had an ego..but he delivered results and that at hitsville was the bottom line,always...

[jobeterob]

I think listing credits was an industry phenomenon that developed and Motown started to participate in what had become a trend.

There is a reason that this question arises with Norman and that is because a number of these songs that appeared on Masterpiece and the other albums around that time had those lengthy instrumental sections and the Temptations were a VOCAL Group. Norman Whitfield probably did not mean to slight the group; perhaps he did not even realize what the consequence of his actions were; when you have a lot of success, the ego develops and you don't always realize you are treading on the feelings of others. Also, there was a demand there from the public and possibly from the record company. But the public and some music publications did start to say things like.........wow, they don't even sing on that song for the first 3 minutes; half of that song is instrumental and this is the Temptations!!?? With egos like Dennis and Otis, you can certainly see there would have been questions. I can't quite see that happening on a Diana Ross record or an Aretha Franklin record; Aretha would have dealt with that quickly.

But Norman had his run and then the string of hits faded and fizzled and his ego was checked.

[topdiva1]

The real answer to the orginal question in this thread is "NO - he did not take too much credit for himself".

[paladin]

Just want to chime in here about the subject matter. According to Harry Weinger in liner notes from The Emperors of Soul box set, Norman Whitfield was indeed responsible for making sure that musician credits were added to his productions beginning with "Solid Rock" and continued with each subsequent album.

"Because of the sheer volume of recordings done in Detroit, it would be impossible to list musicians for each song. Efforts were made to individually credit parts or hooks unique to Temptation sessions. Just remember says Jack Ashford, source of Motown's celebrated tambourine, that while we were recording, we'd be saying to each other, "Hurry Up so we can go get something to eat".

I always thought that The Masterpiece album was classic, but wondered privately if they could pull off such a bold statement. The sculpture was great and the back cover didn't appear to me to be ego related no more than the title of the record. I always saw it as Norman's "Innervison" of and for the Temptations.....more later........

Oh yes, conversely I always thought the cut and paste album covers of Sky's Limit and Solid Rock were beneath the Tempts and whoever gave the ok for those mock ups needed to be fired. LOL.....

[marv2]

Oh yes, conversely I always thought the cut and paste album covers of Sky's Limit and Solid Rock were beneath the Tempts and whoever gave the ok for those mock ups needed to be fired. LOL.....

Those were some of the worst! LOL!!!

[ralpht]

Norman had an ego as big as the state of Montana. Big deal. He knew how to work a session and get the most out of an artist. And he was relentless. Harry Balk once mentioned to me that if he had three Norman Whitfields working for him, Motown would dominate the music industry. I think Harry nailed that one.
Norman once told me, when he was having his biggest successes, that he had the formula to make hit records. I never had the audacity to ask him for the formula and have wondered about that for years. Attached is a clip of Russ and me dicussing Norman a while back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFZmG3keN7s

[jobeterob]

Ralph's post makes a lot of sense. This is the way it is in any business when a person is at the top of their game and successful. The result is you do get some jealousy from people left in the wake, especially people who knew them when they were working at Starbucks and couldn't get a gig.

I love to hear that Norman was good and KNEW he was good!

[topdiva1]

Ralph's post makes a lot of sense. This is the way it is in any business when a person is at the top of their game and successful. The result is you do get some jealousy from people left in the wake, especially people who knew them when they were working at Starbucks and couldn't get a gig.

I love to hear that Norman was good and KNEW he was good!

They all had pretty big egos at Motown - but I will not use names.

[radionixon]

He certainly seems to have had quite the ego on him, but that's not the same as "taking too much credit for himself"; the way I've always looked at it, Norman Whitfield could afford to boast about being able to score hits with an unknown group, or about having discovered the secret formula for hits, or whatever else he came out with, simply because he had the success to back it up. I think he was probably entitled to take more credit, if anything [[as another poster already pointed out, for example, we never actually got an album called The Temptations Sing Norman Whitfield, no matter how many LPs that could have been titled that way). He'd earned it.

The picture gets muddied, I believe, because he was so "visible" as a composer and producer, and because in all honesty his songwriting work [[with Barrett Strong) and his production techniques often actually were more important, in terms of shaping the sound of the finished records, than the identities of the particular artists he happened to be working with on any given day - and sometimes, as with that long run of Temptations LPs with the complex largely-instrumental tracks running for ten or fifteen minutes and taking up most of a side, his "identity" overwhelmed that of the act in question, hence the digs about the Norman Whitfield Singers and all that stuff.

Whatever. To me, the more interesting aspect is how the artists themselves reacted to Whitfield's ways. Whether he really believed the artists were interchangeable, as some of his comments and his frequent re-use of the same material across different acts suggested, is one thing; whether the artists thought he believed that is quite another. How were communications? What was Whitfield like to work with as a producer, especially in the early Seventies when he was working on his ten-minute instrumental epics - approachable, or aloof?

[the_chicks_call_me__slick]

The Temptations were fantastic singers, there's no doubt about that, but none of them were indispensable. David Ruffin was an amazing singer, but when he left he was replaced by Dennis Edwards, another amazing singer.

There was only one Norman Whitfield. No one could replace him. He was a genius.

[midnightman]

Norman was a genius to me. He did all he could to get something out of the artist. I'm sure Marvin, Gladys, David and 'em can testify to that. They may not have liked it but when they got to where Norman wanted them to go, he got the best result. It's because of him that Marvin's "Grapevine" got released, it's also because of him that the Temptations went more rock-based in the late 1960s, and it's because of him that Rose Royce became a sensation in the mid-1970s. So Norman gets my respect. Plus he worked hard at the label to push to the top of the producer mantle.

[smark21]

I think listing credits was an industry phenomenon that developed and Motown started to participate in what had become a trend.

There is a reason that this question arises with Norman and that is because a number of these songs that appeared on Masterpiece and the other albums around that time had those lengthy instrumental sections and the Temptations were a VOCAL Group. Norman Whitfield probably did not mean to slight the group; perhaps he did not even realize what the consequence of his actions were; when you have a lot of success, the ego develops and you don't always realize you are treading on the feelings of others. Also, there was a demand there from the public and possibly from the record company. But the public and some music publications did start to say things like.........wow, they don't even sing on that song for the first 3 minutes; half of that song is instrumental and this is the Temptations!!?? With egos like Dennis and Otis, you can certainly see there would have been questions. I can't quite see that happening on a Diana Ross record or an Aretha Franklin record; Aretha would have dealt with that quickly.

But Norman had his run and then the string of hits faded and fizzled and his ego was checked.

Or Aretha could have played piano--unlike the Temptations or Ross, she can play an instrument besides voice and microphone.

[marv2]

Aretha is also a songwriter.

I wonder how Norman would have done producing Levi and the Four Tops.

[midnightman]

Or Aretha could have played piano--unlike the Temptations or Ross, she can play an instrument besides voice and microphone.

Yep. Like Marv said, she's also a songwriter. She also arranges and composes the music. You could tell Aretha arranged on "Think" and "Call Me" and other songs of that nature.

Unfortunately many of the Motown acts with the exceptions of Marvin and Stevie were known to play anything except their vocals. Of course the Jackson 5 were instrumentalists but weren't allow to play on their own stuff at Motown, which is kind of a shame.

[spyder turner]

Aretha is also a songwriter.

I wonder how Norman would have done producing Levi and the Four Tops.

Hey Marv, there is a Four Tops album produced by Norman, I wrote one of the songs. I don't know what's gonna happen with that though

[marv2]

Hey Marv, there is a Four Tops album produced by Norman, I wrote one of the songs. I don't know what's gonna happen with that though

Spyder, really? You just made my day!!!!! They have to get it release as soon as possible. I know it is going to be good. Do you know how far back they recorded it? The name of your song? Thanks Spyder!

[spyder turner]

Hey Marv, the song is called "JUST ANOTHER DAY" [[I THINK OF YOU). and it is a Great cd. Wish I could post it but I can't, I can only play it for you if you were in my presence, sorry

[paladin]

Marv, I am quite surprised that you were unaware of the existence of this record. We discussed the album and possible release dates [[if ever) many times on the old forum. Its a highly sought after piece of music that has eluded fans for years. I cant say for sure , blame it on my memory but I think a song or two may have been leaked on the net years ago.

Since we can't hear what Norman did with Levi & The Tops, heres what Norman created with David, a somber, more controlled rendition of a beautiful song. Hearing David sing it in this fashion brings interesting meaning and quite a bit of history to the proceedings. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do....more on Norman later.....


Kdub.......

[marv2]

Hey Marv, the song is called "JUST ANOTHER DAY" [[I THINK OF YOU). and it is a Great cd. Wish I could post it but I can't, I can only play it for you if you were in my presence, sorry

I was telling my brother [[he is a singer/songwriter also) this afternoon who lives in Toledo that you wrote a song for the Four Tops album with Norman and now at least I can tell him the name of the song. I will be back in Detroit during December for the holidays. I am hoping I can catch up with you and hear "Just Another Day" [[I Think of You). I can promise, I understand why you can't post it prior to it's release. So much has to be considered these days man. Thanks Spyder!

Marv

[spyder turner]

Hey Marv, if we hook up I'll play you the whole cd. I played "Just Another Day" a couple of times on my radio show when I was doing that, and got great response, got request for the rest of the cd but I could only play what I wrote.

[marv2]

Hey Marv, if we hook up I'll play you the whole cd. I played "Just Another Day" a couple of times on my radio show when I was doing that, and got great response, got request for the rest of the cd but I could only play what I wrote.

DEAL! By the way whatever happened to your radio show. I remember listening a few times. Were you affiliated with "the Hitsville" internet radio show?

[marv2]

Marv, I am quite surprised that you were unaware of the existence of this record. We discussed the album and possible release dates [[if ever) many times on the old forum. Its a highly sought after piece of music that has eluded fans for years. I cant say for sure , blame it on my memory but I think a song or two may have been leaked on the net years ago.

Since we can't hear what Norman did with Levi & The Tops, heres what Norman created with David, a somber, more controlled rendition of a beautiful song. Hearing David sing it in this fashion brings interesting meaning and quite a bit of history to the proceedings. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do....more on Norman later.....


Kdub.......

Kdub, you I just couldn't remember. I remember towards the end of my time living in Philly in late 1986, the Tops had a proposed album containing the single "Hot Nights" that never materialized to my knowledge. Two years later "Indestructible" was released and I never heard about the album with "Hot Nights" again. You remember any of this?

[spyder turner]

DEAL! By the way whatever happened to your radio show. I remember listening a few times. Were you affiliated with "the Hitsville" internet radio show?

the Detroit Radio Legends came in, the pro's, and this upstart had to make room