Questions on Motown 1018

[motownjohnny]

As far as I can discover this unreleased 45 was scheduled to be an instrumental entitled Disintegrated Parts 1 and 2 by a group called The All Stars.

Some listings point out that The All Stars were not the same act as the band associated with Junior Walker, so can anyone throw some light on who they were, where they came from and if they recorded anything else for Motown?

[carole cucumber]

Johnny,

I've too seen that notation in David Bianco's 'Heatwave. But Reg Bartlette's 'Motown By the Master Number' skips that number and....
TCMSC Vol 1 states 'selection number not used' for Motown 1013, 1017, 1018.
Perhaps Keith Hughes may wish to clarify.

Addendum;
I was surprised to see that the first volume of TCMSC index lists Motown 1013 as 'selection number not used'. After more research, realized that the single, issued in January 1962 did appear on Vol 2.
Sorry for the earlier confusion.

[thomas96]

I've definitely seen that 45 before, are you sure it wasn't released? The one I saw was certainly on Motown and not a re-issue as well. I know for sure that the group wasn't Junior's group, but have no idea who they were. I do believe they recorded at least 3 other songs as I came across an acetate with "the All-Stars" listed on it with 3 songs unfamiliar to me, and listening through it wasn't Junior for sure. I'll try to dig up that acetate if I still have it.

[144man]

I saw "Disintegrated" by the All Stars for sale at a record fair many years ago, but was unable to afford it. It was not on Motown, but on one of Mike Hanks' labels, the name of which I had forgotten by the time I got home. I can remember the name of the label was made up of three initials. The catalog number was P-1018, corresponding to the missing Motown number. Strangely enough the B-side was not "Disintegrated Part 2" but instead a track called "Senoreeta". I had previously seen this record advertised in Goldmine, where it gave the record label as "M". Maybe somebody at some point confused the "M" with Motown.

[psychedelic jacques]

I recollect asking this question a number of years ago on here, soon after TCMS began. I'm pretty sure that Keith Hughes responded saying that they's done extensive research on this when compiling TCMS, but nothing turned up; no master, no paperwork indicating 'disintegrated' was ever recorded - nothing. Perhaps Keith can confirm if my memory servies me right.

[robb_k]

There was never any documentation on a Motown 1018 issue.
There was an instrumental band called "The All Stars" working in Detroit in the late '50s and early '60s. They recorded for Joe Von Battle's VON Records, and, I believe, one of Mike Hanks labels. They never recorded for Motown, nor had any connection to Junior Walker's group or Motown. Had they recorded earlier for Motown, it is likely that Junior Walker would have been asked to change his group's name, even when they signed with Gwen and Harvey Fuqua's Harvey Records, as they recorded at Hitsville, and were really part of "The Motown Family" from the start.

Here's the VON record:

[thomas96]

Any connection to Earl Washington's All Stars, or are there three different "All Stars"!

[carole cucumber]

http://marshamusic.wordpress.com/pag...cord-shop-man/

[carole cucumber]

My the thing we learn by reading!

http://books.google.com/books?id=L4ghJfL5iBIC&pg=PA569&lpg=PA569&dq=Joe+Vo n+Battle&source=bl&ots=te0yZxix1k&sig=G0fRNddXPQdf 0IsXx4un85qyc6g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bz2UUYuBOKrL0gHt3ICg Aw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=Joe%20Von%20Battl e&f=false

[carole cucumber]

Teardrops=?

http://books.google.com/books?id=L4ghJfL5iBIC&pg=PA569&lpg=PA569&dq=Joe+Vo n+Battle&source=bl&ots=te0yZxix1k&sig=G0fRNddXPQdf 0IsXx4un85qyc6g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bz2UUYuBOKrL0gHt3ICg Aw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=Joe%20Von%20Battl e&f=false

[robb_k]

Any connection to Earl Washington's All Stars, or are there three different "All Stars"!

Earl Washington and his All Stars were a Chicago group. I don't think they had any connection to JVB's/VON's All Stars [[from Detroit), and certainly no connection to Junior Walker's All Stars. There were a LOT more groups around USA called "The All Stars" [[not surprisingly).

[motownjohnny]

There was never any documentation on a Motown 1018 issue.
There was an instrumental band called "The All Stars" working in Detroit in the late '50s and early '60s. They recorded for Joe Von Battle's VON Records, and, I believe, one of Mike Hanks labels. They never recorded for Motown, nor had any connection to Junior Walker's group or Motown. Had they recorded earlier for Motown, it is likely that Junior Walker would have been asked to change his group's name, even when they signed with Gwen and Harvey Fuqua's Harvey Records, as they recorded at Hitsville, and were really part of "The Motown Family" from the start.

Here's the VON record:

Robb,

Thanks for posting a scan of the VON 45. I too have a copy of this, but have never been able to date it, as there is nothing on either the label or dead wax to give a clue as to when it was released and I have never found a discography listing for VON. Any idea when this VON disc was released?

Judging from the release dates of other Motown 45's listed immediately before and after M1018, it seems that Disintegrated, had it been released, would have been issued around October 1961. Is it therefore possible that the All Stars on VON are the same act as may have been scheduled for M1018, perhaps through a leasing deal rather than an actual contract and for some reason that deal fell through and the record appeared on one of Mike Hanks labels instead?

Also Junior Walker's All Stars had their first release on Harvey Fuqua's Harvey label in January 1962 so could there still be a connection with his group and this unreleased track? Perhaps as I said above the deal fell through at that time and he and his band went to Harvey instead, so Motown never released the disc and it got picked up by Mike Hanks instead as 144man in his posting suggests.

Just my thoughts, but maybe I'm speculating and trying to make 2 and 2 equal 5!!

[motownjohnny]

http://marshamusic.wordpress.com/pag...cord-shop-man/

Carole, very many thanks for your very informative comments and links, including this one by Joe Von Battles daughter Marsha with info relating to her father's famous record shop and recording facility on Hastings Street.

I'm particularly drawn to a comment she makes on January 26 2009 at 3:24am in response to a posting, where she states:

'Many early pre-Motown artists came over to the shop to hang out, listen to records and some did record stuff, mostly, I believe with other artists Jr. Walker and James Jamerson come to mind..............it is possible, and perhaps likely, that Gordy might have recorded at Joe's Record Shop in the very beginning of his career, but I cannot confirm this and therefore, I will not tell you that he did'.

In respect of my request for info on the unreleased M1018, I find the above intriguing as I'm still not sure that there isn't a connection between him, [[Jr. Walker), the All Stars and this possibly scheduled, but unreleased 45.

By the way, I've also just splashed out and through Amazon U.K. bought a copy of the book you posted the link to: "Encyclopaedia of Rhythm and Blues and Doo-Wop Vocal Groups" by Mitch Rosalsky. As it should arrive tomorrow, that's my weekend now accounted for!!

[motownjohnny]

Thomas,

Robb is correct, there is absolutely no connection with Earl Washington's All Stars and The All Stars I inquired about. I have both the Earl Washington albums released on Workshop Jazz and from the liner notes for both can give you the following info;

on the first album [[202,) All Star Jazz" but listed on the liner notes to the album as "Real Jazz", the musicians are given as:

Frank Wess on flute, but who is apparently a saxophonist with Count Basie,
Thad Jones from Detroit on trumpet and also with Count Basie,
Frank Foster also a saxophonist with Count Basie and playing that instrument on this collection,
Benny Powell also from Count Basie and playing trombone here,
Eddie Jones on bass and also from Count Basie's band
Sonny Payne on drums here as well as with Count Basie and
Earl Washington on piano. According to the liner notes as Rodd says he is from Chicago and has his own group in that city.

On one track only, "March Lightly" the personnel are:

John Neely on tenor sax,
John Avant on trombone,
Herb Brown on bass and
Walter Perkins on drums.

On the later released Earl Washington album "Reflections" [[213) the musicians are listed as:

Earl Washington on piano,
Vernel Fournier on drums and
Israel Crosby on bass.

Israel Crosby is listed as "the late, great so clearly the album must have been recorded some time prior to being released in 1964., but as was so often the case with Motown in the early days there is no detail given as to where and when it was recorded.

Hope this helps.

[RossHolloway]

@MotownJohnny where were you able to find your two Earl Washington Workshop Jazz albums? I've never stumbled across any Workshop Jazz albums in all the years of collecting.

[motownjohnny]

@MotownJohnny where were you able to find your two Earl Washington Workshop Jazz albums? I've never stumbled across any Workshop Jazz albums in all the years of collecting.

Ross, these never sold in any great quantities when they were first issued so they are never easy to track down, but every now and again you do find copies on Ebay.

For example I've just now had a quick look on Ebay.com in the music category for Earl Washington and there are four copies of the original "Reflections" vinyl album currently for sale. One is located in Australia and looks like a reissue, but the other three are original vinyl issues and are priced at $39.99, $47.50 and $139.99 respectively.

If you don't mind having a CD version, the earlier "All Star Jazz" album has just been reissued by Hallmark and a new copy can be picked up for as little as $2.38. I can't see any versions of the "Reflections" album currently available on CD.

I couldn't find any of the other Workshop Jazz albums, but they do turn up from time to time so keep looking and good luck.

[RossHolloway]

Ross, these never sold in any great quantities when they were first issued so they are never easy to track down, but every now and again you do find copies on Ebay.

For example I've just now had a quick look on Ebay.com in the music category for Earl Washington and there are four copies of the original "Reflections" vinyl album currently for sale. One is located in Australia and looks like a reissue, but the other three are original vinyl issues and are priced at $39.99, $47.50 and $139.99 respectively.

If you don't mind having a CD version, the earlier "All Star Jazz" album has just been reissued by Hallmark and a new copy can be picked up for as little as $2.38. I can't see any versions of the "Reflections" album currently available on CD.

I couldn't find any of the other Workshop Jazz albums, but they do turn up from time to time so keep looking and good luck.

Thanks for the reply. I keep forgetting about ebay, I need to check them out again. My holy grail of Motown albums is still Brenda Holloway's Every Little Bit Hurts lp. I bought the reissue back in the 80's but I've never run across an original copy.

[johnny_raven]

Reflections was released in 2008 in Japan .. http://www.amazon.com/REFLECTIONS-lt...on+reflections

[RossHolloway]

Reflections was released in 2008 in Japan .. http://www.amazon.com/REFLECTIONS-lt...on+reflections

I can't believe that some seller wants $477 USD for a copy of this album!

[thomas96]

Earl Washington and his All Stars were a Chicago group. I don't think they had any connection to JVB's/VON's All Stars [[from Detroit), and certainly no connection to Junior Walker's All Stars. There were a LOT more groups around USA called "The All Stars" [[not surprisingly).

How did Earl Washington and his All Stars end up in Detroit?

[thomas96]

Thanks for the reply. I keep forgetting about ebay, I need to check them out again. My holy grail of Motown albums is still Brenda Holloway's Every Little Bit Hurts lp. I bought the reissue back in the 80's but I've never run across an original copy.

I've got a very beat up original copy. Only 4 or 5 songs play but still neat none the less. On the topic of ebay, I've probably seen the original listed 5-10 times in the past year or two. Pretty good place to pickup rare[[r) albums as I doubt you'll find Every Little Bit Hurts in a record store unless your in Detroit.

[robb_k]

How did Earl Washington and his All Stars end up in Detroit?

I don't think they DID "end up in Detroit". It was my understanding that the album was recorded in Chicago BEFORE they had any connection to Motown. I think that Motown simply bought the rights to release it. I think it was recorded in 1962 [[rather than 1964).

[thomas96]

I don't think they DID "end up in Detroit". It was my understanding that the album was recorded in Chicago BEFORE they had any connection to Motown. I think that Motown simply bought the rights to release it. I think it was recorded in 1962 [[rather than 1964).

Hmm, interesting. "All Star Jazz" was released in '62, was it "Reflections" released in '64? Anyhow, why would Motown want to buy the rights to this? It was my understanding that the only reason they had the Workshop Jazz label was to keep Johnny Griffith there to play on the Motown/Tamla/Gordy/etc. records. Is this correct?

[robb_k]

Robb,

Thanks for posting a scan of the VON 45. I too have a copy of this, but have never been able to date it, as there is nothing on either the label or dead wax to give a clue as to when it was released and I have never found a discography listing for VON. Any idea when this VON disc was released?

Judging from the release dates of other Motown 45's listed immediately before and after M1018, it seems that Disintegrated, had it been released, would have been issued around October 1961. Is it therefore possible that the All Stars on VON are the same act as may have been scheduled for M1018, perhaps through a leasing deal rather than an actual contract and for some reason that deal fell through and the record appeared on one of Mike Hanks labels instead?

Also Junior Walker's All Stars had their first release on Harvey Fuqua's Harvey label in January 1962 so could there still be a connection with his group and this unreleased track? Perhaps as I said above the deal fell through at that time and he and his band went to Harvey instead, so Motown never released the disc and it got picked up by Mike Hanks instead as 144man in his posting suggests.

I have not seen any dating on VON Records. I would guess that VON 704 was issued somewhere between 1959 and 1961. I can't rule out your theory that Berry Gordy might have been in the process of negotiating a lease deal with JVB for a lease deal of recordings by Von Battle's All Stars, in late 1961, and that deal broke down, and The All Stars signed with Hanks. 1961 would be about the right timing for their release on his label. But, I doubt that their cuts on the Hanks label were published by his own MAH's Music, so I doubt they they were leased from JVB. Detroit's other "All Stars" group probably were just signed to Hanks after leaving JVB. I doubt that Gordy would have leased product from JVB. Maybe Gordy was considering signing The All Stars, and finally, did not, and they had record "tryout recordings". But those have not been found.

As to Junior Walker and his group "trying out" with Motown first, recording, but failing to be signed, and then signing with Gwen Gordy's and Harvey Fuqua's Harvey Records, I rather doubt that that happened. If it had, we would have heard that story. The story I heard was that Harvey and Gwen "discovered" Junior Walker and his group, and they only had contact with Berry Gordy once Harvey's and Tri-Phi's artists started recording in The Snakepit.

I rather think that this is all based on rumour and mistaken memories becoming "institutionalised" by several people hearing these tales, and "confirming" that they "must" be true. I never saw ANY documentation at Motown [[or anywhere else) that there was a Motown 1018 of ANY title, even proposed, let alone slated, or scheduled. I don't know where the "stories" come from stating that 1018 was ever considered as a release by The All Stars. Maybe The All Stars release on the Hanks label, with a [[P)1018 pressing number [[probably not a record company catalogue number), got confused with the missing Motown number [[and that's the only connection)?

[motownjohnny]

I can't believe that some seller wants $477 USD for a copy of this album!

That asking price is plain crazy, particularly when you consider it's a used copy and there are several other sellers on the same listing offering new copies of the same CD pressing with a starting price of from $42 plus shipping.

[motownjohnny]

Thanks for the reply. I keep forgetting about ebay, I need to check them out again. My holy grail of Motown albums is still Brenda Holloway's Every Little Bit Hurts lp. I bought the reissue back in the 80's but I've never run across an original copy.

Have a look on Ebay.co.uk and if you search Brenda Holloway "Every little Bit Hurts" in Music, you'll find there are currently three copies of her album for sale.

The first is in Mono, currently has 4 bids, the highest being $21.50
The second copy is Canadian and offered at a starting price of $299.99. There are no bids!
The third copy is a Mono Deep Groove pressing, still in shrink wrap but opened, and offered at $100.

[144man]

...I rather think that this is all based on rumour and mistaken memories becoming "institutionalised" by several people hearing these tales, and "confirming" that they "must" be true. I never saw ANY documentation at Motown [[or anywhere else) that there was a Motown 1018 of ANY title, even proposed, let alone slated, or scheduled. I don't know where the "stories" come from stating that 1018 was ever considered as a release by The All Stars. Maybe The All Stars release on the Hanks label, with a [[P)1018 pressing number [[probably not a record company catalogue number), got confused with the missing Motown number [[and that's the only connection)?

I think you're right, Robb. None of the composers [[one of which might have been Mike Hanks) or the producer of the record I saw was anyone I normally associated with Motown, and the publisher was not Jobete. The only thing that connected the record to Motown was that the dealer had written "Missing Motown Number" on the record sleeve.

I find it amazing that the record has never turned up again, and that no one knows anything about it. Someone must have bought it.

[robb_k]

I saw "Disintegrated" by the All Stars for sale at a record fair many years ago, but was unable to afford it. It was not on Motown, but on one of Mike Hanks' labels, the name of which I had forgotten by the time I got home. I can remember the name of the label was made up of three initials. The catalog number was P-1018, corresponding to the missing Motown number. Strangely enough the B-side was not "Disintegrated Part 2" but instead a track called "Senoreeta". I had previously seen this record advertised in Goldmine, where it gave the record label as "M". Maybe somebody at some point confused the "M" with Motown.

It must, then, have been released on MRC Records. That was a Mike Hanks label from 1962. The only number series I know on MRC was 1200, rather than P-1000. But, we know that number series of these little labels changes from issue to issue, depending upon the pressing plant used. The only other Hanks label with 3 initials was USD. And, USD had a 1000 series. But USD doesn't start with "M".

[robb_k]

Here's a record on the MRC label:

[motownjohnny]

Here's a record on the MRC label:

There appears to be no tangible evidence to link this recording to Motown and the suggestion seems to be that the All Stars track "Disintegrated" may have had a release on a label with a connection to Mike Hanks.

The extract below is a quote from The Mike Hanks story available on this website:

'The MRC label was also started in '62 and Steve Mancha [[Clyde Wilson) was part of the The Sounds [[and The Stars), who backed Lawrence Faulkon. It's possible that "MRC" refers to Mike, Renaldo and Chuck, as these three co-wrote the Renaldo Jackson disc that intersects the MAH'S' catalogue numbers'.
I'm intrigued by the reference to 'The Sounds [[and The Stars)'. Any thoughts/comments on this?

I know Detroit in the early sixties was a hive of musical activity, with companies and short-lived labels springing up all the time, but like 144man said in an earlier post I too am surprised that this disc, if released, hasn't appeared on another label discography other than Motown and isn't officially referenced to any other company whether owned by Mike Hanks or indeed anyone else. It sure seems to be one very obscure 45!

[robb_k]

There appears to be no tangible evidence to link this recording to Motown and the suggestion seems to be that the All Stars track "Disintegrated" may have had a release on a label with a connection to Mike Hanks.

The extract below is a quote from The Mike Hanks story available on this website:

'The MRC label was also started in '62 and Steve Mancha [[Clyde Wilson) was part of the The Sounds [[and The Stars), who backed Lawrence Faulkon. It's possible that "MRC" refers to Mike, Renaldo and Chuck, as these three co-wrote the Renaldo Jackson disc that intersects the MAH'S' catalogue numbers'.
I'm intrigued by the reference to 'The Sounds [[and The Stars)'. Any thoughts/comments on this?

I know Detroit in the early sixties was a hive of musical activity, with companies and short-lived labels springing up all the time, but like 144man said in an earlier post I too am surprised that this disc, if released, hasn't appeared on another label discography other than Motown and isn't officially referenced to any other company whether owned by Mike Hanks or indeed anyone else. It sure seems to be one very obscure 45!

The Sounds were the male vocal backup group on Larence Faulckoun's record on MAH's Records [[also a Mike Hanks label. They were NOT an instrumental group. So, I assume that "The Stars" were also a vocal backup group, NOT an instrumental group. We need 144 man to tell us if MRC was the label on which he saw The All SZtars' record.

[144man]

No, it wasn't a yellow label. I think it was a black background. Of the three initials, the middle letter was so much more prominent than the other two that I wasn't sure whether it should be read first rather than reading from left to right. It was probably that complication that was the reason I can't remember what they were.

As soon as I got home I regretted not buying the record.

[robb_k]

I don't know of any Mike Hanks label that fits that description. But, it could be possible that a Hanks label that I know of had a design change for that record or for a few releases. There was also USD Records. But that stands for "United States [[of America) Dollars"/"US $". So the middle initial wouldn't be larger than the other two.

[robb_k]

Here are some USD records:

[robb_k]

Hmm, interesting. "All Star Jazz" was released in '62, was it "Reflections" released in '64? Anyhow, why would Motown want to buy the rights to this? It was my understanding that the only reason they had the Workshop Jazz label was to keep Johnny Griffith there to play on the Motown/Tamla/Gordy/etc. records. Is this correct?

I think that is too simple an explanation, and misleading. the general implication is close. The only reason they had the Workshop Jazz label was to keep the several Jazz-related musicians Motown used, working mainly for Motown. That group included several more than just Johnny Griffith [[although, he was the main one).

[keith_hughes]

I believe Griffith was the only jazzer who had a contract with Motown, the others were all on a per-session rate. [[I'm not sure what that adds to the discussion!)

[144man]

Here are some USD records:

I can't rule out the lower USD label. There were definitely two or three different colours on the label.

The record fair at which I saw the record was in London. I noted it on my copy of the 1995 edition of DFTMC, and emailed Keith Hughes about it in 2007, so I must have seen it somewhere between those two dates.

I'm sure it's significant that the b-side wasn't "Disintegrated Part 2".

[robb_k]

Keith, please tell us whether or not you have seen any documentation within Motown with ANY reference to a proposed, slated or scheduled release for Motown 1018, and if you've seen any reference to an acetate by "The All Stars". In all my collecting years, and during my time at Motown during the 1970s, I have never seen any for either.

Thanks.

[thomas96]

Keith, please tell us whether or not you have seen any documentation within Motown with ANY reference to a proposed, slated or scheduled release for Motown 1018, and if you've seen any reference to an acetate by "The All Stars". In all my collecting years, and during my time at Motown during the 1970s, I have never seen any for either.

Thanks.

I couldn't find the acetate I referenced earlier. I doubt that it was these "All Stars," maybe it was some other group as you said, there had to have been many groups with that name.

[keith_hughes]

Keith, please tell us whether or not you have seen any documentation within Motown with ANY reference to a proposed, slated or scheduled release for Motown 1018, and if you've seen any reference to an acetate by "The All Stars". In all my collecting years, and during my time at Motown during the 1970s, I have never seen any for either.

Thanks.

Robb: No and No.

[motownjohnny]

First up apologies to everyone for resurrecting this old thread after such a long time, but you know what they say about everything coming to those who wait and how right they are! Here it is - "Disintegrated" / "Senorita" by the All Stars and well done 144man your memory serves you well Sir!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DETROIT...p2047675.l2557

By opening the original listing link, which closed a week ago I'm hoping you'll be able to see scans of both sides of the record - almost exactly as remembered by 144man.

It is a Mike Hanks recording and by a vocal group so and here I'm guessing that the songs five writers may be the names of the group members. None mean anything to me! Now all we have to work out is how and why this record on some listings became incorporated into the Motown catalogue sequence as M-1018. Perhaps it was a leased recording originally slotted for release as M-1018, but for some reason the deal fell through so it didn't get released by Motown and was picked up by Mike Hanks instead.

The PMP label is new to me, so despite the cat. no [[P-1018) it may have been set up just for the release of this one record - anyone else able to add any further info on this "mystery"?

[mysterysinger]

One would hope that had Motown released it they would have spelt it correctly.

[144man]

First up apologies to everyone for resurrecting this old thread after such a long time, but you know what they say about everything coming to those who wait and how right they are! Here it is - "Disintegrated" / "Senorita" by the All Stars and well done 144man your memory serves you well Sir!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DETROIT...p2047675.l2557

By opening the original listing link, which closed a week ago I'm hoping you'll be able to see scans of both sides of the record - almost exactly as remembered by 144man.

It is a Mike Hanks recording and by a vocal group so and here I'm guessing that the songs five writers may be the names of the group members. None mean anything to me! Now all we have to work out is how and why this record on some listings became incorporated into the Motown catalogue sequence as M-1018. Perhaps it was a leased recording originally slotted for release as M-1018, but for some reason the deal fell through so it didn't get released by Motown and was picked up by Mike Hanks instead.

The PMP label is new to me, so despite the cat. no [[P-1018) it may have been set up just for the release of this one record - anyone else able to add any further info on this "mystery"?

Thank heavens it turned up. I was beginning to think I'd dreamt it. The mis-spelling of "senorita" as "senoreeta" makes me think that the record I saw must have been a bootleg.

[robb_k]

Here are the PMP sides. M must stand for Mike [[Hanks). I don't know for whom the Ps stand. The names of the songwriters are Jazz names [[one being Detroit Jazz musician, Frank Morelli [[who had also recorded for Motown)). I recognise Ashby, Austin and Pollard as Detroit Jazz players. Otis Pollard and Ray Pollard were East coasters. I am positive that The All Stars on Von were an instrumental group, and surmise that these PMP All Stars must be that same group. I also assume that "Disintergrated" must be an instrumental. I would bet that "Senorita" is also an instrumental [[maybe with a Latin tune and beat). If it does have a vocal, then, the group must be unnamed. A poster on this thread said the record had vocals. I'd like some proof. The pressing number looks like a number from ARP [[American Record Pressing Co. [[Michigan)) from 1963. Mike Hanks hated and mocked Motown. It would have been just like him to assign a record label catalogue number that Motown was set to use to a release that he "stole" from them, after a Motown deal fell through. The problem is that Motown 1018 would have been released in 1961, and this record was likely released in 1963. But, Hanks could have found out the story of the failed negotiations from one of the "P" owners, who brought the recordings to him, and used that number for that reason, even 2 years later. But this is far-fetched speculation. So, I suspect that the 1018 number is just a coincidence.

[robb_k]

First up apologies to everyone for resurrecting this old thread after such a long time, but you know what they say about everything coming to those who wait and how right they are! Here it is - "Disintegrated" / "Senorita" by the All Stars and well done 144man your memory serves you well Sir!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DETROIT...p2047675.l2557

By opening the original listing link, which closed a week ago I'm hoping you'll be able to see scans of both sides of the record - almost exactly as remembered by 144man.

It is a Mike Hanks recording and by a vocal group so and here I'm guessing that the songs five writers may be the names of the group members. None mean anything to me! Now all we have to work out is how and why this record on some listings became incorporated into the Motown catalogue sequence as M-1018. Perhaps it was a leased recording originally slotted for release as M-1018, but for some reason the deal fell through so it didn't get released by Motown and was picked up by Mike Hanks instead.

The PMP label is new to me, so despite the cat. no [[P-1018) it may have been set up just for the release of this one record - anyone else able to add any further info on this "mystery"?

How do you know it was sung by a vocal group? Were you able to hear a snippet of it on the auction page? The link you placed was a dead page. But, I didn't see any link to click to go to a soundfile, in any case. The soungwriters are Jazz people. "Disintergrated [[spelt incorrectly) seems a LOT more likely to be an instrumental. I have a hard time imagining that this could be a vocal group record, especially given that the writers are Jazz musicans, AND The All Stars on Von were an instrumental group.

[carole cucumber]

Just a thought- the number 1018 when separated equally becomes 10 & 18. The corresponding letter equivants in the 26 letter alphabet are j & r. ... JR.??????
As Jr. Walker's associates were also called The All Stars and as they became Motown artists in 1963 when Berry Gordy absorbed the Tri-Phi & Harvey labels [[although they would not record until 1964) , perhaps Mike Hanks utilized this cryptic [[though not undecipherable) record number
for these artists bearing the All Stars name as a means of creating confusion, should Berry release a record by his new signess.

[motownjohnny]

Robb, look at the scans and you'll see on both sides the word "Vocal".

Clearly these are tracks are not likely therefore to be by the same set of All Stars as recorded on VON. I have a copy of that recording "1-2-3- Special" and that is an instrumental split over the two sides.

There appears to be a Mike Hanks connection on this 45, as the publisher is given as Mah's Publishing. The PMP label is new to me and I've never seen another recording appearing on that imprint, which is why the record no. P-1018 seems intriguing as it corresponds numerically with the listing on some discographies with the "missing" Motown 1018 recording given as being "Disintegrated Parts 1 and 2". The similar name and number seems very coincidental, but I may easily be jumping to conclusions without any tangible proof. I was hoping you might have recognised the PMP label and would have been able to provide some detail on it.

I looked for it on the website 45Cat, but there are no entries, not even for this particular record, which seems to suggest it may have been local to Detroit only and set up just for this one release. If that is the case then the choice of record number does seem odd.

Is it possible to find out more thru the two Master numbers printed on the labels - 6303163 and 6303164?

[robb_k]

Just a thought- the number 1018 when separated equally becomes 10 & 18. The corresponding letter equivalents in the 26 letter alphabet are j & r. ... JR.??????
As Jr. Walker's associates were also called The All Stars and as they became Motown artists in 1963 when Berry Gordy absorbed the Tri-Phi & Harvey labels [[although they would not record until 1964) , perhaps Mike Hanks utilized this cryptic [[though not undecipherable) record number
for these artists bearing the All Stars name as a means of creating confusion, should Berry release a record by his new signees.

That's way too subtle for Mike. He'd have wanted to make it quite clear [[and upfront) that he was dissing and making fun of Berry and Motown.

[robb_k]

Robb, look at the scans and you'll see on both sides the word "Vocal".

Clearly these are tracks are not likely therefore to be by the same set of All Stars as recorded on VON. I have a copy of that recording "1-2-3- Special" and that is an instrumental split over the two sides.

There appears to be a Mike Hanks connection on this 45, as the publisher is given as Mah's Publishing. The PMP label is new to me and I've never seen another recording appearing on that imprint, which is why the record no. P-1018 seems intriguing as it corresponds numerically with the listing on some discographies with the "missing" Motown 1018 recording given as being "Disintegrated Parts 1 and 2". The similar name and number seems very coincidental, but I may easily be jumping to conclusions without any tangible proof. I was hoping you might have recognised the PMP label and would have been able to provide some detail on it.

I looked for it on the website 45Cat, but there are no entries, not even for this particular record, which seems to suggest it may have been local to Detroit only and set up just for this one release. If that is the case then the choice of record number does seem odd.

Is it possible to find out more thru the two Master numbers printed on the labels - 6303163 and 6303164?

Clearly PMP Records must have been a MAH's subsidiary co-owned by Mike Hanks and two people with names that started with the letter "P", set up only for their joint ventures, just as MRC was. That is why his MAH's music publishing company had all the rights. MAH's, D-Town, Wheelsville USA, Wheel City and USD were all owned by Mike, himself [[until he took in a partner in Wheelsville USA, and eventually sold the entire label to him).

The pressing [[master) numbers seem to be ARP pressing numbers from 1963. Mike sometimes used ARP, as did many of the small indie Detroit labels. That is no clue that can lead us to a Motown connection. The "vocal" designation bothers me greatly, as I just can't imagine Frank Morelli writing a song for a vocal group. Maybe this IS the Von All Stars [[instrumental group), just doing a scant little bit of singing on what should more accurately be classified as an instrumental recording, something like The Merced Blue Notes singing or shouting a few words in some of their Jazz songs, or The Champs shouting "Tequila". "Dissintergrated, spelled incorrectly, just reeks of being an instrumental. And "Senorita" could be a nice title for a Latin beat instrumental, on which the musicians just shout, "Senorita".

On the other hand, would a Jazz record, albeit from a Detroit Soul producer's rarely-seen, one-off label, sell for over $1,000? I guess a Rare Detroit Soul collector might pay that much. I certainly would want badly to own such a record, regardless of its sound.

Still, my instinct is that it is basically a Jazz record.

I wish we could hear it.

[motownjohnny]

Wasn't it in 1963 that Mike Hanks almost bought 2656 West Grand Blvd. to annoy Berry G. who arranged thru his legal people to snatch the deal from him by some "creative means". He really didn't want Hanks operating so close to him.

From what you say this disc would have been released around the time all that was going on.

On the scan in the original Ebay listing there is a Nashville Matria stamp visible in the dead-wax - I can't see an ARP one, but it may be there just not visible in the scan.

I'm sure Frank Morelli was linked to a forthcoming Workshop Jazz release that for some reason, like several others around that time, didn't happen - I don't know if any recordings for it were actually cut, but it's possible these two sides may have been intended for that project and the "Vocal" could be as you suggest just some loose vocals over what would have been a couple of light commercial jazz tracks.

I just wish I'd discovered the Ebay listing before it ended, so I could have contacted the seller to see if he had any info on it and its history.