Someday We'll Be Together question.

[ralpht]

They were as good as it gets, Robb. And I mean that with all sincerity.

[Roberta75]

In the end, Robb, it is all about selling records. And they sold records at Motown.

The lengths some Supremes fans will go to rewrite history on a 43 year old song have me SHH Ralph. You are right my dear man its all about selling records.

I dont really care who is on Someday its a great record and mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong and Diane Ross perform it beautifully on the farewell album and that is good enough for me.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[midnightman]

The lengths some Supremes fans will go to rewrite history on a 43 year old song have me SHH Ralph. You are right my dear man its all about selling records.

I dont really care who is on Someday its a great record and mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong and Diane Ross perform it beautifully on the farewell album and that is good enough for me.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

They sure did!

[ralpht]

And because you feel "Someday" is a great record, then the company did it's job to give you a high quality product. Which was what it was all about at Motown.

[Roberta75]

And because you feel "Someday" is a great record, then the company did it's job to give you a high quality product. Which was what it was all about at Motown.

They sure did Ralph and thats what its all about.

Fondly,

Roberta

[alexgarret]

Absolutely - you did your best and we thank you for that.

[jobeterob]

And this is generally how you hear all the people from Motown talk these days ~ Louvain, Martha, Mary, Otis, Smokey, Stevie, Diana, Marlene, Cindy, Ralph, Russ, Eddie, Gladys, Dennis, the Pips and Tempts and Vandellas and Tops and Funks and all the others ~ they were glad to be there and to have, together, created a body of work that is unparalleled.

[ralpht]

Actually. my earliest memory of the song was when I had pulled into Studio A to check on something. As I was getting out of my car, Johnny Bristol was going to his car. I yelled to him that I thought he had a hit on his hands. He laughed and said he was hoping he did. Guess I was right.

[skooldem1]

I don't understand why when Diana Ross went solo some people think she shouldn't have had prominent background vocalist on her records. It is really quite simple. The majority of soul records released at that time had prominent background vocals. Secondly and most important, its BILLING. She could have background vocals as loud as she wanted. It was billed as a Diana Ross record. Not DRATS where she had to share profits with group members who often were not even on the records.

[davidh]

just a point,this record was one of the few certified platinum byRIAA.and i'm gonna make you love me.
Ralph,any reason why the Supremes record sales are so hush hush.????never understood that.

[ralpht]

David,
Wish I could answer your question but I was definitely out of the loop regarding the Sales Department.

[captainjames]

You are write it was certified Platinum around @ 1997. I have often wondered if the sales department or whomever was responsible was totally aware of how to account for shipment and purchase. Its obvious that several Supremes and Diana Ross singles were moving up the charts.

[midnightman]

Well in comparison, the Temptations have had more of their records [[singles and some albums) certify either gold or platinum more so than the Supremes so it makes you wonder...

[jobeterob]

Well airplay was very much wrapped up into the charts. And there were years in the 1960's where the Supremes/Diana Ross were the artist of the year along with the Beatles and they were the artists that moved Motown into the "white" market.

But later on, by about 1968, I suspect the Temptations started to sell more than the Supremes and for the 4 years from 1968 to 1972, the Tempts had to sell more albums than the Supremes. The Supremes basically petered out.

As years went on, there was still a Temptations presence whereas none of the Supremes albums from the 1970's sold well or were big hits. That continued presence and a few hits here and there [[Phoenix Rising etc) and continued touring would have kept the sales going for the Temptations.

[nomis]

Taraborelli was able to get a print out of US Supremes and Diana's solo "7 sales for the 1989 " Call Her Miss Ross"..the sales figures are included in that book....

[Boogiedown]

Great thread!!
Learning much from you all, most interesting .

[midnightman]

@Jobeterob, it seems the Supremes succeeded on airplay than sales figures, whereas the Temptations had both. Sounds like that's what happened with the Beatles' singles as well...

[jobeterob]

Nomis.............but Randy did not use much if any of the sales information he published in Call Her Miss Ross for his updated, more definitive biography on Diana Ross published a couple of years ago. I wonder why not?? It made me think he was no longer sure it was reliable but he didn't say that.

There has been so much said about Motown sales figures and really, there is nothing very definitive out there about it at all.

[jobeterob]

@midnight: I have no real first hand knowledge of who sold what; to me, it is not out of the realm of possibility that some of the sales figures bandied about are not accurate and that some of the singles rumoured not to have sold that much ~ Come See About Me, Stop in the Name of Love, Back in My Arms Again, Nothing but Heartaches and My World is Empty Without You ~ could actually have been amongst their biggest sellers.

Randy never published "the list" that he had; he just used some figures when he wanted to say songs like You Can't Hurry Love, Touch Me in the Morning, Where Did Our Love Go, and Aint No Mountain High Enough sold a couple million each at release date; and that Baby Love and the others I listed above did not sell a million as was previously assumed.

I recall Mary's book said if a single of theirs reached #30 it sold "millions" I believe was her version.

[milven]

just a point,this record was one of the few certified platinum byRIAA.and i'm gonna make you love me.
Ralph,any reason why the Supremes record sales are so hush hush.????never understood that.

I think all sales at Motown were Hush Hush. I don't think Berry wanted people going through his books. Motown did not belong to RIAA which certifies records gold or platinum. The process begins with an independent sales audit by their accounting firm . I see pictures of The Supremes holding gold records during their prime but they are fake. Berry probably had them made [[or spray painted ) for them.

The Supremes received their first legitimate RIAA certified record in the 1980's [[The Anthology LP). Some of their singles were also certified in that period, STOP, SOMEDAY etc.

Today, the accountants calculate what product has been shipped for sale, net after returns, versus product used for promotional purposes.

But years ago, they would certify a record gold just by what was shipped. I'll never forget years ago when Johnny Carson was presented a gold record for on THE TONIGHT SHOW just days after the album was released. Casablanca shipped out enough of the product to have it certified gold immediately. They also sent out loads and loads of promotional LPs to just about everyone in the industry. The record was a complete flop and within months all the product - including the free promotional copies - was returned to the label. The joke in the industry was that the record was shipped gold and returned platinum.

[davidh]

i think the Supremes had so much product out at the time that it may have divided sales in some cases where as over a period of years they may have sold a million copies.one of Elvis albums was certifed gold not too long ago. if AT THE COPA/MERRY CHRISTMAS were released all at one time,it may have caused fans to have to choose in some cases. i think motown flooded the market with Supremes albums in some years....1965 and 1968 come to mind

[marv2]

I think all sales at Motown were Hush Hush. I don't think Berry wanted people going through his books. Motown did not belong to RIAA which certifies records gold or platinum. The process begins with an independent sales audit by their accounting firm . I see pictures of The Supremes holding gold records during their prime but they are fake. Berry probably had them made [[or spray painted ) for them.

The Supremes received their first legitimate RIAA certified record in the 1980's [[The Anthology LP). Some of their singles were also certified in that period, STOP, SOMEDAY etc.

Today, the accountants calculate what product has been shipped for sale, net after returns, versus product used for promotional purposes.

But years ago, they would certify a record gold just by what was shipped. I'll never forget years ago when Johnny Carson was presented a gold record for on THE TONIGHT SHOW just days after the album was released. Casablanca shipped out enough of the product to have it certified gold immediately. They also sent out loads and loads of promotional LPs to just about everyone in the industry. The record was a complete flop and within months all the product - including the free promotional copies - was returned to the label. The joke in the industry was that the record was shipped gold and returned platinum.

Merv Griffin presented Mary, Jean and Cindy with gold records for "Nathan Jones" on his show in January 1972. This was the show where they introduced their latest single, "Floy Joy".

[midnightman]

@midnight: I have no real first hand knowledge of who sold what; to me, it is not out of the realm of possibility that some of the sales figures bandied about are not accurate and that some of the singles rumoured not to have sold that much ~ Come See About Me, Stop in the Name of Love, Back in My Arms Again, Nothing but Heartaches and My World is Empty Without You ~ could actually have been amongst their biggest sellers.

Randy never published "the list" that he had; he just used some figures when he wanted to say songs like You Can't Hurry Love, Touch Me in the Morning, Where Did Our Love Go, and Aint No Mountain High Enough sold a couple million each at release date; and that Baby Love and the others I listed above did not sell a million as was previously assumed.

I recall Mary's book said if a single of theirs reached #30 it sold "millions" I believe was her version.

Hmm... interesting...

[midnightman]

I think all sales at Motown were Hush Hush. I don't think Berry wanted people going through his books. Motown did not belong to RIAA which certifies records gold or platinum. The process begins with an independent sales audit by their accounting firm . I see pictures of The Supremes holding gold records during their prime but they are fake. Berry probably had them made [[or spray painted ) for them.

The Supremes received their first legitimate RIAA certified record in the 1980's [[The Anthology LP). Some of their singles were also certified in that period, STOP, SOMEDAY etc.

Today, the accountants calculate what product has been shipped for sale, net after returns, versus product used for promotional purposes.

But years ago, they would certify a record gold just by what was shipped. I'll never forget years ago when Johnny Carson was presented a gold record for on THE TONIGHT SHOW just days after the album was released. Casablanca shipped out enough of the product to have it certified gold immediately. They also sent out loads and loads of promotional LPs to just about everyone in the industry. The record was a complete flop and within months all the product - including the free promotional copies - was returned to the label. The joke in the industry was that the record was shipped gold and returned platinum.

That just reminded me: I read a piece of Marvin trivia that said Marvin took a photograph of a gold-certified single. But Marvin was already suspicious that the gold record wasn't real, so to investigate, he opened the plaque with the record and turned the record around. Lo and behold, it was a spray painted Supremes record!

[milven]

Merv Griffin presented Mary, Jean and Cindy with gold records for "Nathan Jones" on his show in January 1972. This was the show where they introduced their latest single, "Floy Joy".

Nathan Jones wasn't RIAA certified in 1972 and it still has not been. Gold records have to have an RIAA certification on it to be real. Supremes first gold record was in 1986 for Anthology. After Motown joined and opened their books, older Supremes records were certified and got gold or platinumn records. Baby Love & Stop went gold in 1997 just one month after SOMEDAY went gold.

[marv2]

Nathan Jones wasn't RIAA certified in 1972 and it still has not been. Gold records have to have an RIAA certification on it to be real. Supremes first gold record was in 1986 for Anthology. After Motown joined and opened their books, older Supremes records were certified and got gold or platinumn records. Baby Love & Stop went gold in 1997 just one month after SOMEDAY went gold.

I am just sharing what I saw with my own eyes!

[jobeterob]

This is the thing about "gold records" and "presentations". We can give one too if we want. But what actually "was" and what sold well is another matter. It was a good idea of the Motown PR machine to give a "gold" record for Nathan Jones ~ because there was the promise of them doing well for a while. As Mary Wilson has said, their problem was the albums did not do well and sold less and less.

RIAA certifications, as pointed out by Milven, could be a crock. They were played with a lot as Michael Jackson's career faltered and they were played with for Whitney Houston as well.

But sometimes a song that reached #20 or #30 in the charts actually sold very well.

As has been pointed out many times, TCB went to #1 and the album, Diana Ross and the Supremes Join the Temptations was that album that sold the most of the two.

[marv2]

In fact, Merv announced it, "Nathan Jones" as being their 22nd Gold Record!

[davidh]

just because the gold record wasnt certified by RIAA doesnt mean the song didnt sell a million copies.motown was a singles driven company and i dont think a song like BABY LOVE went to #1 for 4 weeks and didnt sell a million. it did .also remember rock and roll was still kinda young and even RIAA hadnt been around all that long either. if motown had staff in place for audits ,why pay RIAA to do the same thing.
i do remember Merv saying they had 22 gold records also.but also remember that the defintion of a gold record has changed over the years. i think in the beginning it was a record that made a million dollars in $ but then later to a record that actually sold a million copies.
i think the Supremes had 14 million selling singles.
also when Baby love and Stop were certified in 1997 ,it did not include original sales from the 60s.only sales from 1976 forward when motown joined RIAA.

[jobeterob]

also when Baby love and Stop were certified in 1997 ,it did not include original sales from the 60s.only sales from 1976 forward when motown joined RIAA.[/QUOTE]

I did not know this. Probably the accounting records from the 60's were not available by the time of the certifications.

Where did you hear this David?

[milven]

In fact, Merv announced it, "Nathan Jones" as being their 22nd Gold Record!

I'm not doubting you Marv. In fact , I saw that show too. And they probably had twenty two records that sold a million copies each.

I'm just saying that only four of their singles were certified gold. STOP, SOMEDAY, BABY LOVE and I'M GONNA MAKE YOU LOVE ME.

Motown's books were not for an outsider's eyes. I always wondered if Berry gave high ball figures to promoters, radio stations, nightclubs etc and then turned around and gave lowball figures to the artists so that they would get less royalties.

[milven]

just because the gold record wasnt certified by RIAA doesnt mean the song didnt sell a million copies.motown was a singles driven company and i dont think a song like BABY LOVE went to #1 for 4 weeks and didnt sell a million. it did .also remember rock and roll was still kinda young and even RIAA hadnt been around all that long either. if motown had staff in place for audits ,why pay RIAA to do the same thing.
i do remember Merv saying they had 22 gold records also.but also remember that the defintion of a gold record has changed over the years. i think in the beginning it was a record that made a million dollars in $ but then later to a record that actually sold a million copies.
i think the Supremes had 14 million selling singles.
also when Baby love and Stop were certified in 1997 ,it did not include original sales from the 60s.only sales from 1976 forward when motown joined RIAA.

I would guess that the SUPREMES had at least 15 singles that should have gotten a gold record. Singles had to sell a million copies to get a gold record. That changed in 1989 when you only had to sell half a million to get a gold record.

[reese]

That just reminded me: I read a piece of Marvin trivia that said Marvin took a photograph of a gold-certified single. But Marvin was already suspicious that the gold record wasn't real, so to investigate, he opened the plaque with the record and turned the record around. Lo and behold, it was a spray painted Supremes record!

Tony Orlando told a similar story on the Mike Douglas show.

[milven]

That just reminded me: I read a piece of Marvin trivia that said Marvin took a photograph of a gold-certified single. But Marvin was already suspicious that the gold record wasn't real, so to investigate, he opened the plaque with the record and turned the record around. Lo and behold, it was a spray painted Supremes record!

Actually , the history of the first gold record is similar to your Marvin Gaye story

This term got its start in 1942, when RCA Victor took one of the master copies of Glenn Miller's Chattanooga Choo Choo, and sprayed it with gold lacquer as a publicity gimmick to promote the success of the recording with over 1,200,000 records sold. This was the first Gold Record ever awarded to a recording artist. RCA presented several other Gold Record to their artists before the award became an industry-wide award. RCA awarded a Gold Record to Elvis Presley in 1956 for 1,000,000 sales of the single Don't Be Cruel, and to Harry Belafonte in 1957 for the album Calypso [[1956), the first album to sell over 1,000,000 copies.

Several records sold over 1 million copies in the early 1900's, including recordings by Enrico Caruso and Al Jolson. Prior to Miller's recording in 1942, Gene Austin's recording of My Blue Heaven, in 1928, was reported to have sold over five million copies.



The first RIAA Certified Gold Record was Catch a Falling Star by Perry Como in 1958.

The only thing that makes the RIAA Gold Records "real" is that they are certified by the RIAA and have their certified seal. I have some of them and I bet if I opened them up and tried to play them, it wouldn't be the artist on the label. In fact on some of them, the amount of songs on the label does not match the amount of songs on the album

[jobeterob]

From Call Her Miss Ross

Someone suggested releasing SWBT, a tune Diana had recorded earlier. Berry had planned it as ONE of her first solo records, not a Supremes song. Diana was backed by a CHOIR OF VOICES that only the most naive fan would have taken for Wilson and Birdsong. Still this was a superior record ~ a gospel flavored mid tempo arrangement with a composed, easy going delivery from Diana ~ and it began climbing the charts as soon as it was released in October. Eventually, it would become a #1 record, the biggest song of their career [[over two million copies eventually sold) and the fourth INSTANT million seller recorded by Diana as a member of the Supremes, including Where Did Our Love Go, You Can't Hurry Love and Love Child. I'm Gonna Make You Love Me also sold a million.

THOUGH MOTOWN's SALES FIGURES ARE SAID TO BE INCOMPLETE, it SEEMS Baby Love, Come See About Me, Stop in the Name of Love, and You Keep me Hangin On probably all eventually sold a million copies as years of sales were tallied, but they were not million sellers during the time of their original releases. Press hype to the contrary, other famous Supremes singles like Back in My Arms Again, Nothing But Heartaches, Love is here and Now you're Gone and Reflections did not even come close to selling a million; most sold roughly half that much.

Interesting points are that these assertions have been bandied around as FACT when even he says the figures he was relying on ARE SAID TO BE INCOMPLETE. And he also talks about 5 INSTANT million sellers. Well, a million is a million whether instant or not.

The real fact is the available information was "said to be incomplete".

[midnightman]

The platinum plaque wasn't introduced to the RIAA until 1976 for albums selling a million copies. I don't know if it was that year they also said the same for singles that sold a million or not. It might've been 1989 as someone else pointed out.

[luke]

Ralph I love the Waters and many other background singers but I still dont understand if Flo and Mary were doing so well on Baby Love, You Keep Me Hangin On, You cant hurry Love etc why did they need to be replaced by The Andantes? They sure sounded good on those songs and they sold a bundle! And I love to hear distinctive voices rather than often homgonized background voices, e.g the backgrounds on When Youre Young and In Love. People have often said the Marvelettes backgrounds could be off key but they sure sold a lot of records on Please Mr Postman!

[jboy88]

I believe the Andantes were on hand in case the actual group became too difficult to work with. By the time 1968 came around they just stuck with the Andantes and other session singers because they were more cooperative.

[ralpht]

Luke,
I think as the Supremes popularity rose, the choice of material became more and more sophisticated. I'm not saying Flo and Mary could't have copped the parts, but not as expedient and, more than likely, not as good. And as I always say, it was all about selling records.

[reese]

The platinum plaque wasn't introduced to the RIAA until 1976 for albums selling a million copies. I don't know if it was that year they also said the same for singles that sold a million or not. It might've been 1989 as someone else pointed out.

I think the first RIAA platinum single was DISCO LADY by Johnnie Taylor in 1976, selling two million. Gold singles were always a million sold until they reduced the standard to 500,000 in the 90s.

[davidh]

i dont remember exactly wheer i read it but ,i just remember that the origianl sales info was LOST,whatever that means, and the sales for those gold records were based on saled from 1976 till 1997.

[davidh]

here is some info froma fan club,many years ago,not sure how accurate it is but ...you decide for yourself.
BABY LOVE........3,496.000
SOMEDAY WELL BE TOGETHER.....3,077.000
LOVE CHILD...........2,899.000
WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO.....2,700.000
YOU CANT HURRY LOVE.........2,424.000
STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE...2,154.OOO
COME SEE ABOUT ME......1,870.000
I HEAR A SYMPHONY......1,604.000
YOU KEEP ME HANGIN ON...1,758.000
I'M GONNA MAKE U LOVE ME1,557.000
REFLECTIONS ...1,371.000
MY WORLD IS EMPTY....1,277.000
BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN..1,029.000
STONED LOVE 2,300.000

[davidh]

Supremes albums.....
Greatest hits 1967 ....6,000.000
merry christmas.......3,000.000
where did our love go3,225.000
a go go...........................3,469.000
i hear a symphony........1,894.000
sing hdh..........................1,518.000
more hits........................1,642.000
copa..................................1,316.000
join the temptations.....1,426.000
tcb.......................................1,397.00 0
greatest hits 3..................1,216.000
anthology............................982,000
reflections...........................724.000
love child..............................683.000
together with......................492.000
rogers and hart..................486.000



right on..................................439.000

[davidh]

also,CREAM OF THE CROP.....566,000

[jobeterob]

Luke,
I think as the Supremes popularity rose, the choice of material became more and more sophisticated. I'm not saying Flo and Mary could't have copped the parts, but not as expedient and, more than likely, not as good. And as I always say, it was all about selling records.

You are not mincing your words these days Ralph. Kind of calling a spade a spade.

[ralpht]

Not speaking with a forked tongue, Robb.

[jobeterob]

Not speaking with a forked tongue, Robb.

What I've always enjoyed most about Soulful Detroit is when the people that were actually there ~ set the record straight.

When they do that, a lot of what was so controversial to the fans becomes very simple.

Thanks Ralph.

[ralpht]

Rob,
All in all it was really quite simple. Bring in the best talent for the job and get it done.

[Penny]

Rob,
All in all it was really quite simple. Bring in the best talent for the job and get it done.

It is sad so many of them didn't get paid well or receive any credit. Just doesn't seem right then or now.

Penny

[thanxal]

here is some info froma fan club,many years ago,not sure how accurate it is but ...you decide for yourself.
BABY LOVE........3,496.000
SOMEDAY WELL BE TOGETHER.....3,077.000
LOVE CHILD...........2,899.000
WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO.....2,700.000
YOU CANT HURRY LOVE.........2,424.000
STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE...2,154.OOO
COME SEE ABOUT ME......1,870.000
I HEAR A SYMPHONY......1,604.000
YOU KEEP ME HANGIN ON...1,758.000
I'M GONNA MAKE U LOVE ME1,557.000
REFLECTIONS ...1,371.000
MY WORLD IS EMPTY....1,277.000
BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN..1,029.000
STONED LOVE 2,300.000

As much as I prefer the 70s Supremes sound, I find it hard to believe that Stoned Love outsold Stop! It sounds quite suspicious.