Would Supremes Be As Big As They Were If Mary Wells Stayed At Motown?

**milven** · 01-06-2013, 09:15 PM

Although Mary Wells did not officially leave Motown until 1965, she made it known that she was leaving and no longer recording for Motown, even as her final hit, MY GUY , was released in March of 1964. The Supremes' WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO was released a few months later. Do you think the Supremes would have been given the promotional push that they received if Mary Wells was not giving Motown so much grief even as they were producing the hits for her?

While reading her biography, I read that the Supremes back her up on this record.

**milven** · 01-06-2013, 09:18 PM

While at ATCO, Mary Wells recorded MY WORLD IS EMPTY WITHOUT YOU

**Ngroove** · 01-06-2013, 09:25 PM

No, the Supremes would not.

It was through Mary Wells' departure, in Berry and Motown focused greater attention towards them.

Just like, according to Mary Wilson's "Dreamgirl" book, Mary Wilson explained, that while Motown is a hit-making machine, it could only focus on one or two acts at a time. Over time, the more the Supremes were focused, the less Martha and Vandellas were, for instance.

**Methuselah2** · 01-06-2013, 09:32 PM

Milven - Interesting question. Since WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO became a smash hit even before Mary, Flo, and Diana knew that it had, I always made the assumption, therefore, that Motown hadn't yet started heavily promoting The Supremes. So, it would seem that they had finally hit it big without much fanfare. And that their popularity was assured at that point strictly by their sound and the immeasurable talents of HDH.

**nabob** · 01-06-2013, 09:39 PM

This topic surfaced several times on the old forum. It should be fun to review the new speculations and insights.

**thisoldheart** · 01-06-2013, 09:48 PM

sorry to have to say this [[as much as i love mary wells), but the supremes had a real glam charisma that was unlike anything for black group to have up to this point. their entire persona fit right in with the new brit sound and look. they may have been "no hits", but when they hit, they hit at exactly the right time. their sound is young and fresh. mary wells sounds behind the times. it is all luck and timing, because both were equally talented.

**randy_russi** · 01-07-2013, 08:32 AM

Mary Wells left in the summer of '64! Supremes were hitting with
Where Did Our Love Go as Motown was battling in court to keep
Wells.
I do believe the Supremes would have been big even if Mary
had stayed. The company had tried to get them a hit on their
previous releases.
Mary Wells first post-Motown release was in Oct. '64, "Ain't It The
Truth" b/w "Stop Takin' Me For Granted".

**randy_russi** · 01-07-2013, 08:37 AM

Also, in the early summer of '64, Barney Ales issued a statement in all the music
trades [[including Billb
oard) that Mary Wells was NOT free to negotiate with other labels. At the
end of the article he alerts the industry to the Supremes, who he claims
will have the next #1 record in the country.

**nathanj06** · 01-07-2013, 09:55 AM

I take absolutely nothing away from Mary Wells however, she was not the greatest singer and didn't have that unique of a voice. My Guy is a great song and one that I can only hear her singing. Diana Ross had an extremely distinct voice and you knew it as soon as you heard her. I believe The Supremes would have been huge regardless. They just had it.

**randy_russi** · 01-07-2013, 10:00 AM

Also, her bio is incorrect--He's The One I Love is NOT the Supremes, it's the Andantes.

**milven** · 01-07-2013, 10:10 AM

There are a few errors in the book. I can not identify the background voices on Motown records the way most of you guys can. When I try, I'm proven wrong. I always thought that the Supremes sang My Guy background with Mary and heard them each singing the words "My Guy" individually in the background. I also thought that I heard Diana helping Martha in I CAN'T DANCE. Wrong again. And of course, I remember being so happy when LOVE CHILD and SOMEDAY came out. I said, "Wow! They finally make us hear the other Supremes !" Wrong again

**westgrandboulevard** · 01-07-2013, 11:14 AM

milven, your post made me smile in recognition, and think "And so say all of us..." - at some time, or another!

As long as we don't get too serious and confrontational about it, it's of interest to consider exactly who might be singing here, or there..and it's fun... even if we're wrong! LOL

**luke** · 01-07-2013, 11:28 AM

Of course they would have-Berry had already stuck with them for 8 releases that wernt big hits-why would he stop at 10?

**captainjames** · 01-07-2013, 03:53 PM

I loved Mary Wells and her style and her moves as she sung and acted out her songs but Diana, Mary and Flo had the FULL package in song, style, uniform, and OMG they were cute.

**midnightman** · 01-07-2013, 07:20 PM

Yes they would've. The Supremes were unique for their sound. Mary was great with the sound she had for the music it was produced in. She was in fact Motown's first real pop vocalist.

**luke** · 01-07-2013, 08:41 PM

Though certainly Brenda, and Diana copied the style of Mary Wells.

smark21 · 01-07-2013, 09:12 PM

I think they would have…after all, HDH weren’t writing for Mary Wells, they were writing for The Supremes.

**Kamasu_Jr** · 01-08-2013, 09:24 AM

I'm pissed we never got to hear how Mary Wells would have sounded as the Motown Sound progressed.

**motony** · 01-08-2013, 12:38 PM

the luckiest day of the Supremes life[[Diana Ross') was when Mary Wells did not resign her contract in May 1964.PROMOTION is what makes a hit record. WDOLG might have made the TOP TEN if Mary had stayed but who knows alot of the HDH stuff was being geared towards Mary because her & Brian Holland were an item.And Mary Wells can sing circles around any of the others, especially Diana Ross....anybody that saw them LIVE during the 60's will tell you that.Berry Gordy stated many times that Mary Wells was his favorite singer.

**BayouMotownMan** · 01-08-2013, 03:59 PM

I think had Mary Wells stayed it would have had an impact on the ascension of the Supremes, yes. But remember...BG had an eye for Ross from early on which is why he kept them under contract during a time when other artists would have been cut loose for lack of returns. Likely what would have happened is that the Supremes would have gradually increased in popularity as Wells declined, the same as Martha, Kim, Brenda, the Marvelettes. The Supremes had the sound and the look that Gordy wanted. They were hungry and did every thing BG told them to do. Mary Wells listened to other men in her life besides Gordy so likely she would have left the company for that reason later on in the sixties.

What if is something one can never bank on. I make my observations from the information that is available. Gordy saw a stardom in Diana Ross he did not see in anyone else at Motown. One of the things that upset Mary Wells was this shift in focus from Gordy in her last year there.

**R. Mark Desjardins** · 01-08-2013, 06:13 PM

A most interesting topic to ponder indeed. Mary Wells certainly had the star quality at the time, but was letting the fame go to her head. Diana Ross had the fire in her belly and the drive and determination to make it to the top of the heap. If musical history had been different, these two titans of Motown would have duked it out vocally, and you could be sure that Berry Gordy would have encouraged the competition as he would ultimately benefit. Sadly for Mary, her ambition got ahead of her and she regretted her decision to leave the label for the rest of her life.

**BayouMotownMan** · 01-08-2013, 07:13 PM

Mary Wells was a little on the chunky side and while I love her music, even her post-Motown recordings, she just didn't have the charisma that Diana Ross had. Ross was athletic, wildly ambitious, vocally they were a match and I'll even say that Diana capitalized on the glamour image that Mary Wells became known for as her star climbed. Mary wasn't as eager or competitive at Diana. When Diana Ross made up her mind she was going to be a star, others had better not stand in her way.

What I think would have happened is that the Supremes may have had more like three consecutive number ones while Mary Wells chart placings would have started to decline to Top 20 like Martha did. Motown was small and there was only room for one superstar. And that was Diana Ross

**randy_russi** · 01-08-2013, 07:59 PM

HDH actually were doing great things on Mary Wells. Whisper You Love Me Boy was
being seriously considered for single release.

**sophisticated_soul** · 01-08-2013, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by randy_russi

HDH actually were doing great things on Mary Wells. Whisper You Love Me Boy was
being seriously considered for single release.

It was actually given a number, Motown 1065, and a b-side "I'll Be Available" and then cancelled.

**BayouMotownMan** · 01-08-2013, 08:07 PM

Actually Randy Whisper was scheduled for release. I love her version, was far better than the rather sleepy version Diana gave. Wells's versions of that, He Holds His Own and Honey Boy were quite soulful.

Actually HDH had only modest success on Mary with You Lost The Sweetest Boy. Smokey had a lock on her and knew how to utilize her vocals. When I'm Gone would surely have gone Top 10 after My Guy. Being that Smokey toured and performed and HDH did not, they had far more time to give their artists specialized attention. Martha and Marvin had to give up the talents of HDH after the Supremes hit big, at least for a period of time, likely Mary would have had to do the same.

Please understand, I am not saying that Mary Wells career would have gone into the spiral Martha's did after the Supremes hit, but I feel there would have been a gradual decline and Mary would have left the label by 1966 as a result.

**sophisticated_soul** · 01-08-2013, 08:15 PM

I beat you to the punch BayouMotownMan! LOL!

**BayouMotownMan** · 01-08-2013, 08:21 PM

Indeed you did Sophisticated Soul. It's included in the 1964 The Complete Motown Singles. Strangely, it has an early fade on it.

I must say Mary's My Guy lp remains an all time favorite of mine. A overlooked classic is her first 20th Century self titled album which mixes with Motown sound with a bit of the Four Seasons.

**sophisticated_soul** · 01-08-2013, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

Indeed you did Sophisticated Soul. It's included in the 1964 The Complete Motown Singles. Strangely, it has an early fade on it.

I must say Mary's My Guy lp remains an all time favorite of mine. A overlooked classic is her first 20th Century self titled album which mixes with Motown sound with a bit of the Four Seasons.

As Gene Chandler sings "I Threw A Lucky Punch"

I love the first 20th Century album. I think every track on that album is worthy. It's my favorite. I have been surprised over the years to find that many Mary Wells fans think of it as inferior. I just don't get that at all.

I got my info on "Whisper" from the "Ultimate Collection".

**randy_russi** · 01-09-2013, 12:01 AM

Everyone has their opinion and I believe the idea was to keep Mary hit the top following
My Guy. And, as we all know, this was done with the Supremes--five #1sh in a row!!!
I think Mary would have retained her status and Wells-Robinson would've become
like Dionne Warwick with Bacharach and David. Berry would have definitely
had Mary play the Copa.

**midnightman** · 01-09-2013, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by randy_russi

Everyone has their opinion and I believe the idea was to keep Mary hit the top following
My Guy. And, as we all know, this was done with the Supremes--five #1sh in a row!!!
I think Mary would have retained her status and Wells-Robinson would've become
like Dionne Warwick with Bacharach and David. Berry would have definitely
had Mary play the Copa.

According to sources, Motown definitely had big plans for Mary that possibly included being in those venues.

**midnightman** · 01-09-2013, 12:34 AM

I also think Mary probably did a favor for the Marvelettes: had she not left, maybe Smoke would've produced Don't Mess with Bill and My Baby Must Be a Magician on her instead of Wanda... makes you wonder, don't it?

**marybrewster** · 01-09-2013, 09:48 AM

I wonder if Mary ever regretted letting greed ruin her career?

Let's face it; she left Motown for more $$$ and never had much of a career once she left. Yes, she had a few singles and a few albums; nothing compared to what would have happened if she stayed with Berry Gordy. At Motown, she was the Queen and they held her hand; elsewhere she was just a name on the roster.

On the flip side, it makes you wonder: it's been said that once Mary left Motown, Berry made an "example" of her, and never let another artist "screw" him over like she did. If Mary would have stayed, would other artists who later had struggles, such as Flo, lived a wealthier life? Would Flo still be alive?

**arrr&bee** · 01-09-2013, 11:39 AM

I've often asked that one myself,i think they would've been because remember that smokey worked with mary more than[hdh]did so i think she would've been just fine with smokey and the supremes as they were with hdh.

**144man** · 01-09-2013, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by marybrewster

I wonder if Mary ever regretted letting greed ruin her career?

Surely it was ambition rather than greed. Everyone wants to improve their lot especially at that young age.

**motony** · 01-09-2013, 04:06 PM

unlike The Supremes, Mary was also a writer & became a producer as well.The Beatles saw her as cool & hip but had a totally different reaction when they first met the Supremes & it was ackward situation.

**mowest** · 01-09-2013, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

I also think Mary probably did a favor for the Marvelettes: had she not left, maybe Smokey would've produced Don't Mess With Bill and My Baby Must Be a Magician on her instead of Wanda... makes you wonder, don't it?

I always thought those songs, as well as "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" would have been right up Mary's alley!

smark21 · 01-09-2013, 08:20 PM

Didn't Mary have a pretty piss poor contract with Motown? From a financial standpoint, she was right to seek outside management and a better deal elsewhere.

**luke** · 01-10-2013, 01:12 PM

Mary Wells was had "IT." That star quality. She didnt have an affair with BG. She was not getting just compensation. She was 21 years old!! I think much of her post Motown stuff was much more intersting and often better. She survived and sometimes thrived in her post Motown career.

**midnightman** · 01-11-2013, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by mowest

I always thought those songs, as well as "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" would have been right up Mary's alley!

I forgot to mention that song but you're right... that song definitely was in Mary's key.

**midnightman** · 01-11-2013, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by motony

unlike The Supremes, Mary was also a writer & became a producer as well.The Beatles saw her as cool & hip but had a totally different reaction when they first met the Supremes & it was ackward situation.

It's rumored "Bye Bye Baby" was actually written or co-written with Johnnie Mae Matthews... but she was indeed a writer though. I love "My Heart is a Clock" from the Motown days and "Two Lovers History" from the Jubilee days. The Beatles said the same thing about Martha and 'em being "hip and cool". The Supremes by comparison were dismissed as being a trio of squares.

**midnightman** · 01-11-2013, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by marybrewster

I wonder if Mary ever regretted letting greed ruin her career?

Let's face it; she left Motown for more $$$ and never had much of a career once she left. Yes, she had a few singles and a few albums; nothing compared to what would have happened if she stayed with Berry Gordy. At Motown, she was the Queen and they held her hand; elsewhere she was just a name on the roster.

On the flip side, it makes you wonder: it's been said that once Mary left Motown, Berry made an "example" of her, and never let another artist "screw" him over like she did. If Mary would have stayed, would other artists who later had struggles, such as Flo, lived a wealthier life? Would Flo still be alive?

I think Mary's own decisions led to her not being played more than Berry telling people not to play her. Motown wasn't exactly the powerhouse label it was when Mary started flopping but it was getting there. 20th Century Fox didn't exactly promote her.

**arrr&bee** · 01-12-2013, 03:32 PM

Mary got fooled into thinking that the grass was greener on the other side,and sadly learned that it was actually crabgrass...can you imagine how big[dear lover]would've been had she stayed at motown,it would still be selling.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 01-12-2013, 03:46 PM

well, it turned out that it was 'hip to be square' then..and profitable!!

**randy_russi** · 01-12-2013, 03:52 PM

I have a copy of her contract! It was a standard contract and I believe Motown copied
their contracts after United Artists.

**skooldem1** · 01-12-2013, 03:55 PM

Some people actually think that black women are suppose to be wild, and are surprised when some actually act like ladies. Who cares what the the Beatles felt. If they wanted to get high and the Supremes didn't, that reflects on their [[the Beatles) personalities. Sometimes it is better to be square, than to be hip. Especially if being "hip" means using drugs.

**westgrandboulevard** · 01-12-2013, 05:04 PM

Yes....I'm really glad there was no 'Magical Mystery Tour' type album from The Supremes....

**midnightman** · 01-12-2013, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by westgrandboulevard

Yes....I'm really glad there was no 'Magical Mystery Tour' type album from The Supremes....

That would've been a mess right there. Hell I didn't even like the actual Magical Mystery Tour. Then again I think half the Beatles stuff post-1966 sucked chunks and even then there's only a handful of Beatles tracks I really like. The Stones were better haha

**midnightman** · 01-12-2013, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by arrr&bee

Mary got fooled into thinking that the grass was greener on the other side,and sadly learned that it was actually crabgrass...can you imagine how big[dear lover]would've been had she stayed at motown,it would still be selling.

Exactly. Same with "Use Your Head". Herman Griffin's the guy who got Mary to go along with the fact that she had to leave. Leaving wasn't the best decision for her.