Contemporary Jazz/Jazz Fusion or "Smooth Jazz" [[Is There A Difference ? )

[GeeTee(HPK)]

I want to get your take on this subject. [[and I hope we can agree to disagree. Let's not start any verbal insults towards one another,on this thread please)

Smooth Jazz format seems to still exist in certain areas on the map. [[it has returned back on the airwaves here in Chicago) Here's the problem I have with the format. They place music by artist like Chris Botti,Boney James,Kenny G, etc;and then throw in artist like Mike McDonald,Celine Dion,Anita Baker,Phil Collins,Luther Vandross,Stevie Wonder, Michael Bolton etc;
I know the difference between a smooth jazz artist from a pop or soul artist,but to combine all 3 genres of music and call it "smooth jazz ?" PLEASE !

The artist who's music should be played on these so called 'smooth jazz" formats,but are widely ignored is a huge slap in the face.
Ex. [[early CTI material George Benson,Grover Washington Jr.Bob James)
Weather Report [[besides "Birdland")
Tom Scott
Stanley Turrentine
Return to Forever
Tom Browne
Kool and the Gang [[besides "Summer Madness")
The Crusaders [[besides "Street Life")
George Duke [[early material from the 70s -early 80s)

I hope you get my drift. The Smooth Jazz format doesn't work for me,because they play the "usual suspects" and mixes pop and soul/R&B artist in their format,while they puposely omit the artist who's music could fit into the format.

When the format first started, it was pretty good,and I enjoyed what I was hearing. Then all of the sudden,it changed dramatically and I couldn't listen to it anymore.

The fusion/contemporary jazz was huge in the late 60s,early to mid 70s,with the CTI, Blue Note,Kudo,Tappan Zee,etc; and it leaned more towards a rockish to R&B FUNK groove mixed in. [[maybe that's why smooth jazz won't play them) lol

My question is do you like contemporary jazz/jazz fusion or do you prefer smooth jazz?
Please state your reason,why you like or dislike either format.

There's a reason why I'm posting this,and I hope you will understand in the end where I'm coming from.
Thanks

[[Notice,I didn't mention Straight Ahead,Bop,Mainstream or Free Jazz, because that's a different subject,and a different style of jazz, which I by the way love ! )

[ms_m]

Geetee, in the late 70's when the smooth jazz format hit the scene, all the artist you mentioned were a cornerstone of the genre, several years later when I heard Luther and Smokes on a smooth jazz station I almost fell out of my chair.

Like most things in this industry it was a matter of dollar and cents and the stations simply were not getting enough to sustain themselves in a strictly smooth jazz/fusion format. The purist were always hating [[think Wynton) and the casual listener never really got down with instrumentals. [[some folks need the words to help fuel their imagination)

I have an extensive smooth jazz collection consisting mostly of the artists you name. Fusion could be as commercial as so call smooth jazz grooves but in my view it was pretty much the same in the beginning, just another way to market the music.

Cali stations are a great source for the genre these days although they too mix "smooth soul" with the smooth jazz, but again it's just a name...some music from the genre you feel some you don't, just like any other genre.
....and so it goes

[ms_m]

I should rephrase that and say, most of the artists you name, not all.

[ms_m]

Geetee, the more I think about this the more I have to laugh. In a way, it's like the new format. People had gotten use to the old format, they were comfortable with it and liked it, now that it's changed, many are upset...but what makes SDF, the format or the people that post?

This joint drives me up a friggin wall but until someone gets smart and kicks me out, I 'll keep coming back...sucky back ground and all Why, because I can always find SOMETHING that appeals to me in the mist of all the chaos. That's how I feel about smooth jazz or any other musical genre.

[paladin]

Hmmmm this is going to be tricky. I understand both viewpoints and can accept them on thier own terms. I have never really gravitated to so called "Smooth Jazz" because in and of itself "Jazz" for the most part has always been veiwed universally as smooth. You know cool cats, hip dudes and woman who were laid back and enjoyed the various grooves in the tracks.

The so called smooth jazz stations at startup had it right but as Ms. M indicated something broke down after its initial run and all of a sudden you were hearing Marvin Gaye [[not Trouble Man Soundtrack), Smokey Robinson, Luther, and others like them for no apparent reason other to to garner listeners.

Smooth Jazz at that point to me was no more than background music for work or my trip to the local grocery store. Meanwhile artists like Walter Beasly, George Howard, Kirk Whalum, Gerald Albright and others were basically ignored although they were natural heirs to Sonny Criss, Grover, Rollins and others.

I would have to say GT, that I like comtemporary jazz better overall, because I simply refuse to have a format shoved down my throat that is far removed from what it actually is! I have no problem with the music itself, but to be fooled by corporate America is not one of my failings. Now if "smooth jazz" playlists gets the listener to seek out and explore the history of the music, then I'm all for it, but to accept this music as defined by corperate America is a big mistake. Reminds me somewhat of those famous lines used by Dick Clark, "...its got a nice beat and easy to listen to"........right........he was general as hell but didn't have the inclination to say any record was rock, roll or blues.......pretty smart if you ask me.......

[ms_m]

Yo, Have Gun LOL
who came up with the genre Blues, Rock, Soul....can I get a collective......CORPORATE AMERICA....even if you find one person who first coined a word or phrase for what is all essentially MUSIC.....it was still pushed/marketed by the suits.

We get so caught up in labels sometimes it's really scary. For some, having a nice beat and easy to listen may rock their world, for others having an intricate musical passage may be their bliss.

I understand where you and Gee are coming from but guys, music is.....it just is. You either like certain music or you don't. I was thrown when Luther started playing on what I had gotten use to as Smooth Jazz just as I was first thrown by Miles, Bitches Brew... I'm not big on most hip hop or rap [[and NO did not get into Sugar Hill Gang) but I can't get too upset with those that do. [[like that sort of thing)

It's like I said on the old forum, some things move you [[Like the Hamsters Dance song) and some things don't. WE place importance on the labels... but the music will be and has always been...just is.

Think about it this way....if somehow someway corporate America were able to convince people that Marvin was a C/W artist, would you suddenly start hating MG cause you may not like C/W? Yeah that's a bit of a stretch but you get my drift. It's not the label that's really important.

I pretty much drifted away from SMOOTH Jazz Stations mainly because they don't play what I really want to hear on a consistent basis....but someone does or the stations would not still be surviving, especially when you think of how many that have bit the dust.

One of the reasons I brought up Wynton [[Marsalis) is because his purist , snooty attitude towards jazz has always confounded me. One of the people he claims to revere once said....and I paraphrase, if it sounds good to YOU, it's good music....and that came from Mr Duke Ellington.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

Thanks ms_m and paladin for responding. What I would like to do is invite those that are interested,to listen to my program next Thursday night. [[9pm-midnight cst http://whpk.org)

I'm doing a 3 hour special dedicated to contemporary jazz/jazz fusion. What you will hear will be music that should be played on the smooth jazz formats,but are ignore. Plus, I found a article the I will discuss about smooth jazz. [[it may change your way of thinking about smooth jazz) [[?)

[ms_m]

Give me a heads up before next week. So much is happening in my personal world it's nOt easy making plans or even remembering I have them.....LOL

I'm open to any articles on the label [[genre) and nothing will change my mind about the moniker smooth jazz being nothing more than a label but bring on the article.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

For the time being,you can listen to our afternoon show. I mentioned it today on "News From the Service Entrance."
http://whpk.org/temp/201008051330.mp3

[chidrummer]

To get back to your original question, I think there fairly clear lines of distinction between Fusion artists and Smooth Jazz artists. In a nutshell, fusion tends to be more demanding in terms of melody, form and improvisation. Smooth Jazz, on the other hand, is usually more accessible. A trad-jazz piano buddy of mine, said it best I think, the genre ought to be called Instrumental R&B and leave Jazz out of it. I kind of break it down like this:

Fusion Artists: - Weather Report, RTF, [[early) Stanley Clarke, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Billy Cobham, Santana [[as Devidip), Tony Williams [[Lifetime), Mike Stern, Dave Weckl, Special FX, [[early) Headhunters, Jean-Luc Ponty, Pat Metheny

Smooth Jazz Artists - Stanley Turrentine, Tom Browne, The Crusaders, George Duke, Spyro Gyra, George Benson, Grover Washington, Bob James, David Benoit, Norman Brown, Steely Dan, Lee Ritenour, Tom Scott, David Sandborn

I think Miles started out Fusion and became Smooth. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

I see your point,but I think some of the artist you mention in you smooth jazz catagory should be listed as contemporary jazz artist,simply because the smooth jazz format doesn't play their music.

Stanley Turrentine [[even though he drift back and forth from straight ahead jazz to contemporary jazz from time to time)
Tom Browne [[too funky for smooth jazz)
Crusaders [[early material before "Street Life")
George Duke [[early material)

Steely Dan [[ rock with a mixture of pop,r&b and jazz)

[paladin]

Seems to me like we are at small odds here.

Ms M said:
Think about it this way....if somehow someway corporate America were able to convince people that Marvin was a C/W artist, would you suddenly start hating MG cause you may not like C/W? Yeah that's a bit of a stretch but you get my drift. It's not the label that's really important


No because they cant. I think [[ and I may be wrong) that GT, is arguring about affixing the right label to the right product. I mean if you walk into a store and buy a can of tuna and when you opened it up it was Spam! That wouldn't be cool !

Then again I think we all agree w/GT's post he said:

I hope you get my drift. The Smooth Jazz format doesn't work for me,because they play the "usual suspects" and mixes pop and soul/R&B artist in their format,while they puposely omit the artist who's music could fit into the format.

That was cool and we all stated that we gravitated away from the established format, not the original. And even though I dont have an extensive smooth jazz collection, I still enjoy most forms of music whether its labeled or not. I agree that music is color blind, but thats how we find things with labels. I have a similar problem, with the big box stores and their labels, dam if I can find anything I'm looking for, Urban, Pop, Rock,Metal,Classical, Jazz, R&B, New Wave, Punk, too many dam labels, and believe me when I say this, I have found Marvin Gaye and Stevie among others in all of those categories except classical, ooops just remembered found Stevies "Plants Album" in classical !

[GeeTee(HPK)]

That's exactly what I'm saying, paladin. If you're going to label music,make sure you use the RIGHT label.

I remember a few summers ago. I attended one of our African Festivals,and one of the acts on the bill was the Jazz Explosion. [[great show,and was well recieved by the audience)
Wayne Henderson
Bobbi Humphrey
Roy Ayers
Ronnie Laws
Lonnie Liston Smith
and the late Jon Lucien

Even though the artists I just mentioned,you don't hear their music on either "today's r&b/classic soul" or "smooth jazz" formats,they can still play. So why is it that their presence on commercial radio ignored ? [[ ha,ha !)
Their music recieved airplay during the 70s and early mid 80s. [[before "smooth jazz" dominated and shook things up)

I must say,the people overseas knows what time it is,because they still play their music,and these artist are well recieved,when touring outside the US.

The best thing I can do is [[again invite those that are interested) to listen to my program next Thursday. [[8/12) 9pm-midnight [[cst) [[bookmark it or write it down on your calendar)

Prehaps you will hear where I'm coming from. [[I will post the link for the podcast on SDF,if you're unable to listen on the day of the show)



http://whpk.org and we stream online at iTunes

[Doug-Morgan]

The discussion may be mute, since "Smooth Jazz" as a radio format aparently had the half life of a dish of ice cream on a hot day. Many "Smooth Jazz" outlets have morphed into "Smooth Rock"or something similar out of ratings necessity, and like other niche formats [[AAA, Alt. Country, Classical), with some notable exceptions, will probably survive best on public radio stations.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

Public Radio Station or National Public Radio ?

[tsull1]

I like traditional jazz AND smooth jazz, which probably makes me odd, which I am anyway. :>)

Smooth Jazz is great for relaxing, when I'm cooking, or just hanging out at home. Some artists I don't like [[Kenny G) and sometimes it's too repetative for me, but there are some great artists. I particularly like the late, great Wayman Tisdale.

[Doug-Morgan]

Non-commercial broadcasting in general, not a specific network program. Alt. Country and AAA have found some sucuess in non-commercial radio and, withe the decline of smooth jazz [[or whatever it's morphed into now), it's salvation may be stations like WHPK.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

Well, if you take a listen to our station, "smooth jazz" is not played on WHPK. They mainly play straight ahead jazz 6 nights a week. [[see our website and look at our program schedule, http://whpk.org ) The DJs are very serious about their jazz.
The reason why I'm doing the jazz fusion show,because the format I'm in charge of,we mix things up a bit. [[so it works best in the 9pm-midnight time slot that I'm on.)

[ms_m]

I agree with Geetee, all the artists you call fusion artists were definitely in the mix of the smooth jazz format during it's inception, as a matter of fact they were part of the mainstay crowd along with many of the other artists you named in the Smooth jazz category. Smooth jazz today has definitely taken a turn from how it started out and I maintain the term was more marketing than actual styling/technique with exceptions. There was a lot of stuff in the beginning that was jacked up but not all fusion was on point either.

Are you familiar with the new "rock jazz" being played by Ed Lewis, LOL....I bet that really makes you crazy, huh? hahahaha

As a musician Chi, I'm really surprise at the rigid stance you take towards the genre.

You know, sometimes, being successful in a particular style of music [[or any creative endeavor) can have serious drawbacks. Once people become accustomed to something they want that style and nothing else. That can make the creative process frustrating for many artists. They become stagnant and can't move in new directions or even build on what they have done in the past.

Sypro Gyro R& B?????...are you kidding me??????

[ms_m]

BTW...Joshua Redman and Kenny Garrett [[and I could name more)are also lumped into the smooth jazz market and one would have to be deaf not to hear the VERY distinctive jazz flava to their compositions.

One more thing, in reading about Ed Lewis and his rock jazz I was surprised to learn he often plays with Wynton....seems homie is lightening up in his old age. Good for him


AND....if you MUST put a label out there, Bob James would be more "pop" jazz than R&B....which really underscores my point. It may have elements of other genres but the jazz chords can still be heard. [[in many of the smooth jazz compositions) Seeing many of these artists live and the improvisational skills are evident as well.

The whole thing as far as I'm concerned was about creating/selling music that would appeal to a wider and more diverse market.

[ms_m]

Who gets to choose the right label....the people that market the music!
A lot of musicians I know detest the labels that are placed on their music....they don't like being confined in that way.

Labels help people to identify, I get that but in the general scheme of things does it really matter? I've heard elements of classical styling in jazz compositions. [[think Keith Jarrett) Is one style diminished over the other? In the mind of a rigid listener....probably, in the mind of those who are willing to expand their view and vision, I say NO.

I'm not saying people have to like it but to dismiss something because it doesn't fit your vision of what it should be seems very unfair to me and I see that waaaay too much in this biz and the creative world in general. If I like it, I like it, doesn't matter what label you place on it.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

The term "rock jazz" , "jazz rock" etc; is nothing new. That's what fusion was called some years ago. Guitarist Jeff Beck's "Blow By Blow" and "Wired" albums were lumped in that catagory,back in the 70s. As the older I've become, I've learn to have a certain ear to determine what I can tolerate. I lean more towards mainstream jazz,and the sad thing about it, I can only hear that type of jazz at the station I'm a member of. [[our NPR station no longer plays jazz,it's a all news format)

I can't wait until next Thursday,so I can musically demostrate what is missing on the airwaves. [[buckle up !)

[ms_m]

Gee you need to check out 365. Unfortunately I'm referring to their paid subscription but it's worth it because you will be able to find the stations and artists you crave. [[and most without or very little commercial interruption)

The music many of us want is still out there, no matter what genre but since times have changed it takes more effort. It takes more physical, emotional and sometimes financial investment to find it. It is what it is. The suits are in charge like it or not and they will not totally give up their grip ever [[until times end) and consumers will not change it because they spend more effort complaining than doing. It takes a balance of both... complaining and doing to make a difference.

The music scene will NEVER be what it once was. People will either find ways to adapt and look for things that work for, and cater to their wants/needs or, spend the rest of their days bit#$ing about what use to be. [[the latter being much too negative and stressful)

We have choices..... we can choose to react to any given situation, yet too many are determined to take the easy route and complain, moan , groan and become judgmental which is fine up to a point and at that point, walk away, adapt, or make a difference.

If you didn't have the music in your collection you wanted to hear, if you didn't have an outlet to play and share that music on the airwaves, I could understand the frustration but the fact is....you have everything you need and like. You can hear it at your leisure. With all the latest and greatest gadgets, you can take that music with you anytime and anywhere but yet, that's not enough.....you [[collective you) want it the way it was back in the day......LOL...shrugs

[GeeTee(HPK)]

I'm familair with Live 365. [[we were once streaming there,before we had our own server) At WHPK,we do Public Service Announcements, [[very short ads) and were FREE ! [[ I gave you a invititation to check us out a year or so ago,but ....)

Yes,we all have choices,but what I'm trying to do is suggust another outlet,for those that may be tired of hearing the same ole sections every hour of the day. [[not trying to sound like a broken record....)

No, I don't really want it the that is way that is was back in the day,because [[and I'm not trying to be a smart @#%) but I pretty much have it that way. [[ask a few of the folks on the forum,that's familiar with what I do. We're small,but slowing growing... That's the reason why I do what I do. It's called community servive.

Later this month,we will be celebrating 63 years on the air. [[that's more than most commercial stations life span on the air,so we must be doing something right) Once a year,we do a pledge drive. [[like most non-commercial radio stations)
It helps keep us on the air,and to do maintenence and to puchase equiptment we need to stay on the air.

Every DJ on WHPK is in charge of the music selection. [[no strict guide lines,no PD breathing down our necks,telling us what we can or and not to play) We cater to our listeners,and understand their musical needs.

When you have a free moment,please go to our website, http://whpk.org and take a look at our program schedule.


I'm just another small outlet in a major city. I'm sure there other cities that have either a college station or a non-commercial station in their city. That's what I listen to,because I know what their mission is.
It's a small outlet,but the dedicated listeners truly understand and appreicate what the "little guys" are doing. [[for FREE !) It's a labor of love,and the love for the music. Hugs !

[catwoman55]

Hey, y'all... I'd like to chime in here, if I may. Getting straight to G.'s question:

My question is do you like contemporary jazz/jazz fusion or do you prefer smooth jazz?

:
I like contemporary jazz/jazz fusion, and I DO NOT PREFER what they're calling "smooth jazz" these days. I like the former because whether an artist puts elements of other genres, e.g. rock, R&B, classical, hip-hop, or [[even) gospel, I still hear the basic elements of jazz in their works. While my tastes in music genres is said to be eclectic by some, jazz has always had a special place in my heart. Of the two types of jazz that G. mentioned, jazz fusion is quite special to me, as the music evokes special times and places in my early adulthood journey. It is also special since listening to that type of music helped me learn to appreciate the straight-ahead jazz that I liked, but pretty much dismissed or took for granted-- the music I grew up with, along with Motown, Stax, the Chicago Sound and the other popular R&B/soul music of the day. Now, this "smooth jazz" is another story... Quite simply, much of it reminds me of the "elevator music" or "Muzak" I used to hear on certain FM stations, and I don't like that kind of sound. And, I hear no elements of jazz as I know it through this music. I've pretty much gotten used to labels in this business, but, hell, like Kdub wrote, if you're gonna label something, label it correctly. If I had to label this "smooth jazz", I'd simply call it "pop music", with the emphasis on "pop", as in light and fizzy...

I do respect the opinions of others who may disagree and like that kind of music. It just is what it is - we all have our likes & dislikes. But, I have to say that I appreciate it when G. does those jazz fusion special episodes on his show because I no longer hear this wonderful music anywhere else on the radio and I think it's a damn shame. So, he [[as well as the other DJ's who play jazz on HPK) are providing a valuable community service, and [[like G. said) it's FREE of charge. Ms. M, 365 is a nice idea, but I guess I just don't feel like I should pay for a service to hear the kind of jazz I really like.

I went on here a bit long, but that's my take on it...

[GeeTee(HPK)]

Thanks Cat,for appreciating what I do at 'HPK and thanks for adding you voice to this thread.

[splanky]

There were maybe 5 or 6 artists working in the "genre" known as smooth that were doing some interesting things for my
tastes. I remember Kim Pensyl being one. Outside of that the format as it was presented on radio featured mostly artists
many whom I liked otherwise, doing things I would never consider jazz at all. It was the epitome of pretentious radio
programming.
I liked and still own and listen to quite a bit of Fusion which could be at different times very hot as in Herbie Hancock's
Chameleon or very lush as in Weather Report's A Remark You Made. I doubt anyone would ever expect to hear Miles Davis's
Run The Voodoo Down on a smooth jazz station though I do remember CD101 playing Human Nature.
Anyway, I don't really have a dog in this race. I'll take 20's New Orleans, 30's Swing, 40's Bebop, 50's Cool and Hard Bop,
60's Modal, Free and Soul jazz over any "smooth jazz music" any day...

[GeeTee(HPK)]

I understand Splanky where you coming from. From the very beginning,the format was alright,UNTIL the format changed the groove and became more polished and slick sounding. UGG !!!! [[can't stomach it now. It reminds me if I'm waiting to see the dentist,or I'm in the elevator waiting to get to my destination)

My whole reason for this thread,is to acknowledge a form of music that's pretty much lost in the shuffle today.

Check out the link,and maybe you will see where I'm coming from. http://www.chicagosmoothjazz.com
If you like it,I love it ! lol Hopefully I'll hear from most of you this coming Thursday.

[ms_m]

But that's my point Gee, everything you want, everything you like, everything you want to hear you already have the ability to do it and yes for FREE....hahahaha

I can appreciate you wanting others to have this same ability but they do...heck, they can listen to you, or the others that are doing the same.

Bottom line Gee and this goes for other things as well as music, I guess I'm getting tired of folks focusing on what they don't have, use to have, had but don't have anymore.... and not enough on what they do have now....it's my pet peeve and curse in life I guess... sue me

Sorry if I didn't respond to your 365 invite. I get a lot of email on several different email servers. If it's not something that I'm familiar with right away or doesn't have a subject that I immediately recognize, I'll probably ignore it or sometimes it goes to my spam folder which I also ignore. Please don't take it personally, it wasn't meant as a slight. I'm really funny about opening emails I'm not comfortable with.

[ms_m]

Splanky I heard Miles' album On The Corner quite a bit on smooth jazz stations back in the 70's. Critics and purist dogged him out about that album.

I don't like everything Miles did but I respect the fact he wasn't afraid to try new things with his music. He refused to be pigeon holed and I dug that and still dig that about him.

[ms_m]

The more I read through this thread the more I realize many of you are actually making many of my points. You like what you like and that's cool but just because you don't like something doesn't have to mean it's bad...it just means YOU don't like it.

As I said earlier I have an extensive smooth jazz collection and a lot of it is extremely intricate. I also have fusion, country, world music, reggae, rock, heavy metal, rag, experimental jazz, Streisand, Sinatra, classical and of course soul and much more.

I LOVE MUSIC...many times I may not be able to tell you the name of the tune, most times can't tell you what album it came from and could care less when, where, or how it was produced or what session musicians played on it.....don't really care about the label/genre, just the music. That's just me. shrugs

[GeeTee(HPK)]

ms-m,
My invite for you to listen to my show was not through Live 365,but with what I do once a month on 'HPK. [[remember a few of us were posting our show info on a thread you suggested. Big Murph,Classic Master, Richard and myself )

In fact, I have posted mp3 links on both the main forum and in the clubhouse for anyone's listening pleasure,but it's water under the bridge.

I will post a reminder about the show in this thread on Wednesday,and perhaps Thursday. [[the day of the show,and on the "Today On WHPK" thread,a few hours before the show )

[ms_m]

I'll do my best to remember Gee but the reminder would definitely be appreciated.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

Will do. I'll repost in a few days.

[cozmic]

Sypro Gyro R&B?????...are you kidding me??????

That was a great performance Miss M ! Thanx for sharing.

Another dig from their earlier work :




As for George Duke's catalogue. It's imo way too diverse to mainly file it under smooth or instrumental R&B.
I mean, the cat started recording/performing with Cannonball Adderly's Quintet :




Then he recorded his very first solo-albums during the mid to late 60's, and became a touring-member of
Frank Zappa's "Mothers Of Invention" during the early 70's. Frank's work wasn't excactly easy to play. Quite complex stuff.
Check on youtube an anecdote of Zappa's former drummer Terry Bozzio. He tells about auditioning for Frank's band.
George and Frank were choosing which drummers could pass for another round, but most drummers were dropping like flies lol !



During his Mothers Of Invention-years, George continued recording for another label called MPS. That was a great experimental era,
as GeeTee already mentioned before. Some stuff from those years :





Not to forget the quartet he formed around the 70's with Billy Cobham, Alphonso Johnson and John Scofield :




They reunited years later :




George still released here and there tight instrumental work [["Fuzzzion" [[1989 : featuring a few of his former jazzrock-buddies Alphonso Johnson, Jean-Luc Ponty, etc...) /
"Bus Tours" [[1992) / "Ten Mile Jog" [[2002 : eleven and a half minutes of raw energy), although he may have indeed went more towards r&b/pop, especially as producer for
artists like Dee Dee Bridgewater, Deniece Williams, Howard Hewett, Jeffrey Osborne, Rufus, Seawind, Stephanie Mills, Taste Of Honey, etc...



Some of Tom Browne's rawer stuff :





Lee Ritenour & the late great Tommy Bolin recording on Alphonse Mouzon's album :







Tell me how these below are easier accessible to play :

[ms_m]

OUTSTANDING musical retrospect COZMIC!

Many of the media labeled smooth jazz artist are extremely diverse. What most people hear on the radio is usually what a larger more diverse demographic will embrace or accept in a more commercial setting. I'm with Tsull on Kenny G, I happen to think he tends to be the most boring, redundant cat on the planet but even Kenny G has done a few things that would surprise people. [[a tad few....LOL)

Labels too often limit an artist....typecast them if you will. People hear smooth jazz and often will automatically dismiss someone without doing more research on their work and catalog. It's the way it works in this biz and I do understand the necessity. I also understand how smooth grooves/smooth soul or whatever was thrown in the mix but that only muddies the waters most of the time. Once again, it is what it is but the music people want to hear is out there. Much of the problem, we have become spoiled from the old days where we didn't have to look too hard or too long to find it.

Daddy acey made a comment in another thread about baby boomers that made me laugh. Maybe one day when I find more time I'll expand on his words.

Thanks Coz, great clips.

[cozmic]

Thank you too for your comment and you're welcome Ms. M !

Yeah, Kenny G's days with Jeff Lorber's Fusion are another chapter lol :

[cozmic]

OUTSTANDING musical retrospect COZMIC!
Labels too often limit an artist....typecast them if you will. People hear smooth jazz and often will automatically dismiss someone without doing more research on their work and catalog. It's the way it works in this biz and I do understand the necessity. I also understand how smooth grooves/smooth soul or whatever was thrown in the mix but that only muddies the waters most of the time. Once again, it is what it is but the music people want to hear is out there. Much of the problem, we have become spoiled from the old days where we didn't have to look too hard or too long to find it.

This reminds me actually of an interview with Jeff Lorber, which was done by one of our members here, Dj Funk-O-Nots.
Jeff told that at the time, Clive Davis was very supportive about Jeff's fusion-recordings, but eventually tried to
direct him more to recording vocal tracks. This was around the era that Clive started to intensively support the
upcoming Whitney Houston. Around the same year, Jeff released his "Step By Step"-album with a number of
guest vocalists such as Audrey Wheeler and James "Crabs" Robinson [[fomerly in the band Change).

[cozmic]

BTW...Joshua Redman and Kenny Garrett [[and I could name more)are also lumped into the smooth jazz market and one would have to be deaf not to hear the VERY distinctive jazz flava to their compositions.

I've attended indeed great shows by them. I'm still planning to check the jazz-movie "Kansas City" by Jonathan Demme, and in which Joshua appears. Kenny's history is interesting too, starting in the group Out of The Blue,
and in Miles' band after that. I've noticed somtimes that he gets confused with the other Kenny, Mister Gorelick lol.
Maybe that's why Kenny Garrett is sometimes filed under smooth jazz.

[ms_m]

Kenny Garrett's, Simply Said seems to be the tune that gets airplay. I happen to like the song because it lives up to it's name [[in a good way) but when you play the tracks from the rest of that CD you go whoaaaa...this cat is heavy.

Spyder calls me a "suit." I guess I could be offended by that but in a way he is right, I am a suit but a suit who LOVES MUSIC so I tend to see both sides of the coin.

[cozmic]

Hey thanks for that Kenny-info Ms. M ! I'll be checking that album sometime

[ms_m]

He has quite a discography but Simply Said seems to have placed him out there in the main stream. You can hear clips form the CD here.
http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Said-Ke.../dp/B00000JC6E

Ironically, that tune is what made me aware of Garrett because I wasn't aware of him until that song. See that's the irony in labels. As a consumer if you don't allow yourself to be confined by the label you can hear things you didn't know existed.

Ronnie Mac's last CD was played in smooth jazz formats here in the States. As a suit, I'm was over the moon to get airplay anywhere we could get it.....LOL

music BUSINESS....need I say more....hahahahaha

[cozmic]

Thanks again Ms. M ! I actually remember now receiving once a cdr-copy of that Kenny-album a few years back ... oh boy, lol, ...
... i forgot to double-check the title. I've had a major shift with my collection being stored for half a year somewhere else because
of intensive fix-jobs in my house. This last half year my collection returned safe home, but a lot of cd's and lp's got mixed up, due
to fast packaging all of them in boxes lol. But i've heard Kenny's album indeed a few times and it's a great album with different moods.
"Simply Said" is a wonderful track and really embodies the title. Great that you discovered his work and cool that Ronnie Mac get's airplay !

Keep up the biz !

[ms_m]

I have a love/hate relationship with this industry but I'll do my best Coz.
TKS

[ollie]

I like good music, no matter what genre it's called. This might fit in.


Many nice artists already mentioned. What 'bout


smooth funky jazz fusion peace


bass

crazy bass fusion Stanley Clarke, Chick Corea and Lenny White.


some funky smooth jazz to come back to it


another one


i like this as well, my man, bad guitar player.




shouldn't be in this section, but it slipped in. Listen to the smooth jazzy kind of guitar.


long ago we lsiten to this peace a lot

[kevgo]

Whew! What a hell of a thread! I guess I gotta say that I dig contemporary jazz as well as fusion and some smooth jazz. What I do not like is how commercial radio felt that they needed to incorporate classic soul vocals into the mix. When CD 101.9 in NYC started playing the Chi-lites' "Oh Girl" I knew the format was in trouble.

Ms. M is so right about the jazz chops of Kenny G...I saw the man in person at the Eastman Theater in Rochester NY [[summer 1989) and his game is tight.

BTW - does "The Wave" still exist in the west coast?

Kevin Goins - KevGo

[ms_m]

The soul vocals threw me initially as well Kev-Go but I changed my tune when Ronnie Mac was placed in the mix. Airplay equals record sales, ya dig? Plus it didn't stop me from listening to these stations every now and then although, I prefer listening to my personal playlist more.

It's all about marketing which is much of what I've been trying to say from the beginning. [[with a few twist and turns along the way....LOL) We may not always like and or appreciate that aspect of this biz but in general terms it's always been this way. In specific terms it's a new ball game but generally speaking, marketing/advertising/money rules the day and that dictates the play list for commercial radio.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

Well I'm glad to see that this thread has grown some legs. [[thanks Cozmic and Ollie for the youtube clips)

The first two recordings of Kenny G, I happen to like,until he fell off. [[at least it had some soul to it)

It's Wednesday morning, [[a day away from the program I'm putting together) I invite anyone that's will and able,to please tune in to my program,Thursday night. I guarantee you will hear some forgotten gems,plus a very important message dealing with the "smooth jazz" format,that you don't want to miss !

9pm-midnight [[cst) http://whpk.org and iTunes. [[podcast will be posted the next morning,here and on the "Today On WHPK" thread)
Thanks

[GeeTee(HPK)]

Here's a sample of what you might hear tomorrow night at 9pm[[cst),on http://whpk.org.

[ladyvanaye]

Unbelievable...I burned that Nancy Wilson song the other day for my parking attendant. Ill tell him to tune in. PS - does this mean you will be incorporating the much needed Jazz - smooth, fusion et al into a new format at 'HPK?