DMF singing People in the "Orient"

**franjoy56** · 06-25-2012, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by George Solomon

There is the "People" studio version used on There's A Place For Us and the 1964 live version used on the Where Did Our Love Go Expanded. There are a few other early live performances but we used the best on the WDOLG expanded. And they sang it at the Motortown Revue in Paris but audio problems made it unreleasable [[only Mary's mic was on). They obviously sang this song quite a bit in the early years. After the Roostertail show in late 66 there are no more recorded performances of the song.
The Supremes In The Orient is something that Motown Productions have [[or had). Even their best copy isn't pristine. I don't think it was recorded very well. Obviously there is or was a lot more footage from the unedited special but I have no idea where that would be.

The best version of People is on the pink box set, where Flo nails it. I saw the Supremes at the Copa in 66 and all three shared the song. Flo's solo of "Long Gone Lover" is also a real treat. Hopefully we will hear more of Flo from the vaults she was a great singer.

**jobeterob** · 06-25-2012, 01:40 AM

People was never one of my favorite songs; I didn't like it by Barbara Streisand or any Supremes; it was a good choice to drop.

Your a good man George. Setting Supremes history straight is important.

If you want to hear Florence at her best, it definitely isn't on People or on her solo album; it's on Manhattan, O Holy Night, Ain't That Good News, Nothing But Heartaches and You Keep Me Hangin On.

**johnjeb** · 06-25-2012, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

If you want to hear Florence at her best, it definitely isn't on People or on her solo album; it's on Manhattan, O Holy Night, Ain't That Good News, Nothing But Heartaches and You Keep Me Hangin On.

Maybe not "at her best", but I really love "Save Me A Star".

**George Solomon** · 06-25-2012, 11:33 AM

I want to share the reason for my post because it's actually a funny story.
I met a guy who said he was a huge Supremes fan. Actually he was a big "Dreamgirls" fan. He began telling me what really happened with the Supremes... obviously he didn't know who he was talking to. :-)
He said that nightly, Florence would take center stage and do a solo rendition of "People". It was so powerful that every night there would be a five minute standing ovation. Not only was Diana Ross livid and demanded it be cut from the show, but Barbra Streisand contacted Motown and insisted it be cut as well.
Like the tale by the time it's been told by more than one... It's growing.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 06-25-2012, 11:43 AM

Mr.Solomon, can you comment on the likelyhood of "TCB" and "GIT/Broadway" ever seeing the light of day on HD DVD?..is there a holdup over rights or just no desire to release these gems? [[not to mention "MOTOWN 25")..

**Glenpwood** · 06-25-2012, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by George Solomon

I want to share the reason for my post because it's actually a funny story.
I met a guy who said he was a huge Supremes fan. Actually he was a big "Dreamgirls" fan. He began telling me what really happened with the Supremes... obviously he didn't know who he was talking to. :-)
He said that nightly, Florence would take center stage and do a solo rendition of "People". It was so powerful that every night there would be a five minute standing ovation. Not only was Diana Ross livid and demanded it be cut from the show, but Barbra Streisand contacted Motown and insisted it be cut as well.
Like the tale by the time it's been told by more than one... It's growing.

Thank You George for your insight and all the love you show all The Supremes. It's very true that all tales get larger in the re-telling.the only thing that doesn't seem to get larger on the Internet are people's ages and waistlines lol. I suppose that's why you and Andy give us expanded editions and not straight dull reissues. Looking forward to Baby It's Me, Symphony, or any other projects you have coming up...

With gratitude and respect!
Glen

**antceleb12** · 06-25-2012, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by George Solomon

I want to share the reason for my post because it's actually a funny story.
I met a guy who said he was a huge Supremes fan. Actually he was a big "Dreamgirls" fan. He began telling me what really happened with the Supremes... obviously he didn't know who he was talking to. :-)
He said that nightly, Florence would take center stage and do a solo rendition of "People". It was so powerful that every night there would be a five minute standing ovation. Not only was Diana Ross livid and demanded it be cut from the show, but Barbra Streisand contacted Motown and insisted it be cut as well.
Like the tale by the time it's been told by more than one... It's growing.

It's funny you mention that because I remember a friend of mine sent me this link a while back with this tale that is very much related to yours:

FLORENCE BALLARD:

According to Tony Turner, author of "All That Glittered," The Supremes were rehearsing for their Copa debut. Florence Ballard started singing "People." It sounded fabulous. She was tearing the song up, inside and out, it sounded nothing like the Streisand version. Everybody was listening until Harvey Fuqua said, "There's going to be a change in the show." 'People,' will not be in the performance.

Flo exploded, saying, "She [[Diana Ross) will never get away with it." Flo storms out, she's ranting and raving down the sidewalk, 'Flo's not taking this shit.' When we get back to the Plaza, Flo held her door wide open with a chair. She looked at me and said, "Tony, it's like a game of concentration. When you get a take card you get to take your opponent's prize. Berry Gordy is Diana's take card. Diana never cared about Berry until she knew I was interested in him. He and I used to get along just great until that b**ch came along."

Get Mary on the phone! She stayed there with the door open, she complained to everyone coming back from rehearsal. Mary arrived, she just sat there, not saying anything, as Flo went on and on. Diana and Berry had the sense not to go near Flo's suite that night.

Flo continued cursing and said, "I'll bet you that Diana Ross is going to be up on that Copa stage singing my goddam song!" Sure enough, after a few days, "People" was put back into the show and now it was Diana up on the stage singing the song."

After the show, Flo was in the dressing room, she started to belt out "People," nobody in the dressing room said a word. Flo did the whole song in a cappella. She held the last note for five minutes, outside the dressing room, people began clapping and stomping their feet.

http://panachereport.com/channels/ol...nceBallard.htm

I couldn't help but laugh.

**Roberta75** · 06-25-2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by antceleb12

It's funny you mention that because I remember a friend of mine sent me this link a while back with this tale that is very much related to yours:

http://panachereport.com/channels/ol...nceBallard.htm

I couldn't help but laugh.

Tony Turner had all theses tales about him and Flo and led the reader to believe he and Flo were BFF's yet there is barely a photograph of the two of them together. His books were very amusing but basically fiction IMO.

Roberta

**jobeterob** · 06-25-2012, 01:14 PM

Very good Antceleb12; some of the best research I've seen.

I just tried to hold a note for 5 minutes; at 30 seconds I started to go blue.

**George Solomon** · 06-25-2012, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

Mr.Solomon, can you comment on the likelyhood of "TCB" and "GIT/Broadway" ever seeing the light of day on HD DVD?..is there a holdup over rights or just no desire to release these gems? [[not to mention "MOTOWN 25")..

I certainly think there is desire to release these on DVD. I don't know all the legalities but I think there is joint ownership, at least for TCB and GIT. It's just a matter of everyone agreeing. I sure wish everyone would pick up the pace!

**BayouMotownMan** · 06-25-2012, 03:52 PM

I have heard on several occasions plans to at least release the TCB special, but it never pans out. Like George said because of the joint ownership it has to be mutually decided. I would also think having so many of these performers deceased with estates run by others, that this complicates things as well

**Jimi LaLumia** · 06-25-2012, 04:29 PM

Is there anything the fan base can do to speed these things up? perhaps the sales of Diana Ross/Central Park and last year's Ed Sullivan DVDs might help?..Is it about money..cos no one's making any while these gems just lay on the shelf, gathering dust..

**jobeterob** · 06-25-2012, 04:53 PM

Who owns TCB?

NBC and George Schlatter Productions? Motown too? Motown Productions?

**BayouMotownMan** · 06-25-2012, 05:04 PM

I'm thinking if Sparkle with Whitney turns out to be a big hit it could re-ignite some interest in releasing these specials

**luke** · 06-25-2012, 05:38 PM

If you dont think rock and roll is sexist look at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

smark21 · 06-25-2012, 08:04 PM

I remember really looking forward to People when I bought the box set and it turned out to be a big letdown. I fell for the hype of what Flo was supposed to be as a lead singer. The arrangement, as mentioned before, was dreary and dull. But I thought Flo’s lead part was tentative and uncertain in her phrasing. Diana elevated the record at the end with her part as she just knows how to sing a lyric. I think that due to Dreamgirls, Flo’s reputation as a singer was seriously overinflated and people tend to confuse the real Flo Ballard with the fictional Effie.

**skooldem1** · 06-25-2012, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by smark21

I remember really looking forward to People when I bought the box set and it turned out to be a big letdown. I fell for the hype of what Flo was supposed to be as a lead singer. The arrangement, as mentioned before, was dreary and dull. But I thought Flo’s lead part was tentative and uncertain in her phrasing. Diana elevated the record at the end with her part as she just knows how to sing a lyric. I think that due to Dreamgirls, Flo’s reputation as a singer was seriously overinflated and people tend to confuse the real Flo Ballard with the fictional Effie.

I know this won't come as a surprise to anyone, but I feel the same way about "People". When Diana comes in, she brings the lyrics to life, in a way that Florence Ballard didn't. It is the best song when comparing the 2 voices.

**johnjeb** · 06-25-2012, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by smark21

I remember really looking forward to People when I bought the box set and it turned out to be a big letdown. I fell for the hype of what Flo was supposed to be as a lead singer. The arrangement, as mentioned before, was dreary and dull. But I thought Flo’s lead part was tentative and uncertain in her phrasing. Diana elevated the record at the end with her part as she just knows how to sing a lyric. I think that due to Dreamgirls, Flo’s reputation as a singer was seriously overinflated and people tend to confuse the real Flo Ballard with the fictional Effie.

I agree, as well. Not a fan of this song by The Supremes.

I enjoy Flo's voice on the released material from their early albums and a couple of unreleased songs such as "Save Me A Star". But in most of the unreleased songs her phrasing could use some work. Whether it was due to lack of confidence, experience or just not enough takes, many of the songs, even Silent Night and O Holy Night, are unremarkable.

By the time A' Go-Go was released in 1966 I had all The Supremes albums and enjoyed hearing solos by Mary and Florence on those early releases. I was disappointed in later years that there were no more solos by them. I definitely think Diana Ross should have been the main lead but a few leads by the other ladies on albums would have been most welcome by me. Maybe then we would have heard better productions and more confident and professional singing.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 06-25-2012, 08:41 PM

I must confess that i was part of the 'poor Flo' chorus for years,as we all like to root for the 'underdog' in retrospect, but in recent times,having always been a Ross fan first and foremost, I realize that Flo wasn't poor by any stretch,she was a member of the #1 US group of the 1960's ,second only to The Beatles..she had a powerful voice, but no vocal finesse,which Ross had a mastery of..fighting with the label president, who is your employer, not your equal in the work place; getting fat and drunk, are not the most ideal keys to moving up in the entertainment world..she should have enjoyed the ride,and took a shot at the lead spot when Ross went solo,something that Flo apparently didn't want Ross to do..no one shoved 'poor Flo' into a hole,she dug it herself and jumped right in..sad but true..

**TheMotownManiac** · 06-25-2012, 08:43 PM

I agree 100% but I think a lot of it has to do with Diana Ross avoiding dealing with Mary Wilson at all costs. If all 3 were open to working together, promoters and the media would be all over it. I'm sure Diana would be wanting to celebrate the 50th if she could chance being with Mary. I don't believe she isn't proud of their achievement. I also think her kids would do everything possible to discourage their mom suffering again at the hands of Crazy Mary. It's too bad for sure. Too bad for DMC and too bad for us.

Originally Posted by Bokiluis

Sometimes it is easy to forget just how huge The Supremes were. If this were the MTV days, they would have dedicated an entire special to "The Supremes in the Orient". Unfortunately, The Supremes have not even received a proper 50th Anniversary celebration. Though The Beach Boys also were very popular, The Supremes eclipsed them as the most popular American group from 1964-1969. And that was not only the singles, but, multi-platinum selling albums in "Where Did Our Love Go", "More Hits by", "Sing Holland, Dozier, Holland", "A Go Go" amongst others. No acts sold the types of quantities that were sold in the 90s, even The Beatles. However, TLC and The Spice Girls have more registered RIAA sales than The Supremes. But in actuality, The Supremes still reign as the #1 girl group in the world, to this day.....if you extrapolated their sales into current numbers, those 20 million albums sold, would be much closer to 50 million albums.
But here comes The Beach Boys with a new album and a new tour. Of course, neither was possible for The Supremes, but, The Beatles are down to two living members and they still get first class promotion.
The Beach Boys resurgence was handled so well that I ended up buying "The Pet Sounds: Complete Sessions".
But The Supremes' 50th Anniversary has practically come and gone with only another compilation and the Ed Sullivan appearances on DVD. You would have thought that VH1 and BET would have done specials on both them and The Temptations. Why wasn't "T.C.B." and/or "G.I.T." not re-air on PBS. Every time that iTunes promotes one of their compilations, especially "#1s", the sales are quite impressive. So I honestly feel it is a matter of Motown/Universal does not have the vision to insure that their legacy lives on.
It doesn't take a marketing whiz to see a lost opportunity.
The Supremes television specials should have re-aired on PBS, VH1 and BET!
i'm sure if Berry Gordy was still at the helm, the legacy of his Mount Rushmore roster would be properly promoted.
How will a new generation know without being told? How will the Baby Boomers be reignited without proper promotion?
Sure rock acts have a different trajectory, but, surely if The Supremes were properly promoted, their 50th Anniversary would have been a lot more celebratory.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 06-25-2012, 08:52 PM

everyone still pictures the group as hair pulling banshees thanks to the 'poor Flo' nonsense,and "DreamGirls" certainly didn't help..

**TheMotownManiac** · 06-25-2012, 09:01 PM

Yes, definitely. Motown saw a huge decline in sales of Supremes reissues and hits compilations after Dreamgirl came out. It's sad because a lot of what Mary said was untrue or exaggerated - all meant to mislead and create a fantasy where Ross was evil and Mary & Flo her victims. Turns out, we were all victims of Mary - including Diana, Cindy and Mary herself. You gotta remember that Mary couldn't get a record deal, so she needed to get money somehow and her live gigs weren't getting her much bank. Mary has made much more money with her books than her dismal 35 year solo recording career.

Originally Posted by skooldem1

Not trying to imply anything, but does anyone feel that the Supreme Legacy was greatly tarnished when Mary released her book?

smark21 · 06-25-2012, 09:05 PM

Blink MOtown Maniac Blink!

**rod_rick** · 06-25-2012, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by smark21

I remember really looking forward to People when I bought the box set and it turned out to be a big letdown. I fell for the hype of what Flo was supposed to be as a lead singer. The arrangement, as mentioned before, was dreary and dull. But I thought Flo’s lead part was tentative and uncertain in her phrasing. Diana elevated the record at the end with her part as she just knows how to sing a lyric. I think that due to Dreamgirls, Flo’s reputation as a singer was seriously overinflated and people tend to confuse the real Flo Ballard with the fictional Effie.

Well I don't think it was just Mary's book or DreamGirls that portrayed Florence as this fabulous singer. A lot of others have said the same. Florence had alot of potential to be a great singer had she been developed. Imo it take more than a great voice to be a lead singer, some of the early stuff was ok but then you hear Aint That Good News and you knew Flo had the goods. What is the last recorded version of Florence singing People, I would like to do a comparison just to see if she improved on her phrasing.

**antceleb12** · 06-25-2012, 10:10 PM

A lot of people say that Florence and Mary were mere stepping stones for Diana's solo career. I completely disagree. Even before all of the rumors about group turmoil went floating about [[so there was no underdog to fight for), fans went NUTS for Florence and Mary. Florence remarked in an interview that while in the Orient in 1966, Berry noted to her that the men took a great interest in her [[partly for her physical form!). Also, it is believed that Gordy had a brief interest in a film career with Ballard. I think had Mary and Flo been given the same kind of grooming Diana received over that 10-year period, they could have easily become stars in their own right. After all, producers fought over which Supreme should sing on "WDOLG," and Diana was NOT looked on positively by many as the best choice for lead at first!

It took me a while to realize that, in the end, Mary, Florence, and Diana were best friends - even through the years in which Florence was down and out. Frankly, I think that each of the Supreme ladies have moved on [[even Florence got over her issues with Diana), and its the media and deluded fans that are stuck in this place where they think they're doing anyone justice by bashing other Supremes.

**Penny** · 06-25-2012, 10:12 PM

I wasn't there so I don't know. I do know that Mr. Solomon's word is as good as gold so I thank him for his comments.

In the past I have either heard interviews or read interviews where Diana and Mary both state that Florence had the best and most powerful voice of the three of them. They both showed great respect for Florence's vocal abilities.

What is, is. We will never know what might have been had Florence gotten help and had proper management and received good advice. God rest her soul.

Penny

**johnjeb** · 06-25-2012, 10:32 PM

I kept thinking of Florence Ballard when I saw the Unsung episode on Stacy Lattisaw a few years ago.

Stacy had the singing talent but not the drive to be in show business, so she retired to be with her family and friends whom she missed - and is a much happier and fulfilled person.

That seems to be the same conflict Flo was facing. Diana and Mary must have been exhausted by Flo's career ambivalence, professional behavior and personal mood swings. Maybe they felt what was best for their friend, and also for their own careers and peace of mind, was for Flo to move on so she could be happier.

**antceleb12** · 06-25-2012, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by johnjeb

I kept thinking of Florence Ballard when I saw the Unsung episode on Stacy Lattisaw a few years ago.

Stacy had the singing talent but not the drive to be in show business, so she retired to be with her family and friends whom she missed - and is a much happier and fulfilled person.

That seems to be the same conflict Flo was facing. Diana and Mary must have been exhausted by Flo's career ambivalence, professional behavior and personal mood swings. Maybe they felt what was best for their friend, and also for their own careers and peace of mind, was for Flo to move on so she could be happier.

I think part of it was not having the motivation, but I think it greatly had to do with her pride. She refused to let her morals be compromised and wouldn't let Gordy take her for a ride. The last issue got her into hot water quite often. Florence would talk in interviews about how all she wanted to do was sing, but wouldn't keep quiet if something upset her.

Also, I definitely think her rape had very negative after effects on her. She never sought counselling, and that was a big mistake. Had she sought therapy, she might not have had as much mental turmoil as she did.

**soulballad** · 06-26-2012, 11:42 AM

The Florence Ballard and Supremes story is extremely complex. Most of their story have been exaggerated both with the good and the bad. The weight issue and the drinking has been made a bigger deal than it really was. Flo drank but they all drank! Flo was curvier but she was always curvier. If weight had been an issue Cindy would have nerver been asked in the group because they were about the same size. Flo was a great singer but she was no Jennifer Holiday [[in fact no Supreme or anyone on Motown ever was a powerhouse vocalist in Jennifers league). Diana was a good vocal stylist perfect for the popish copa/crossover sound. I really dont think Flo cared much about who sang lead, especially after she started to see other things going down at the company inside and outside of the group [[that's another story in itself and water under the bridge) Most of the stuff we get now is simply fans projections.

DMF started off as friends but they became just co-workers and every grouping of Supremes after that were simply just co-workers, which explains why a lot of the magic was gone.

The arrangement to "People" is horrible. The music always reminds me of a school recital. With a little work and a different arrangement it could have worked out just fine. In some parts of the song it seems like Mary's and Diana's vocals are dragging or are off or something. It just seems there was no effort put into making the song a mainstay. Florence should have been given a song that was more of a rocker.

It's really sad that after all the hard work of each Supreme [[and HDH and the funks etc. etc) and all of their major accomplishments that they have become somewhat of a footnote in rock and roll history.

**antceleb12** · 06-26-2012, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by soulballad

It's really sad that after all the hard work of each Supreme [[and HDH and the funks etc. etc) and all of their major accomplishments that they have become somewhat of a footnote in rock and roll history.

I completely agree.

**jobeterob** · 06-26-2012, 01:34 PM

Is it true they are a footnote in history? They seems to be the subject of major debate just like the Beach Boys and Beatles and Rolling Stones; the history seems endless..........

And if awards are the issues, yes, the Supremes have been overlooked but the lead singer on the hits hasn't been; I dont know what other awards people think she should receive. And realistically, are the Grammys now going to give a Lifetime Achievement Award to the group? That just isn't in the cards.

I'm never sure I agree when the subject is raised that the Supremes are overlooked, that they didn't receive recognition and awards; perhaps it is true of the group, but not Diana Ross.

**jillfoster** · 06-26-2012, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

I have heard on several occasions plans to at least release the TCB special, but it never pans out. Like George said because of the joint ownership it has to be mutually decided. I would also think having so many of these performers deceased with estates run by others, that this complicates things as well

I wouldn't be entirely sure that permission would even be required to release these DVD's. Releases are signed at time of filming, I know almost no actor on a sitcom is asked permission or even compensated when TV series are released on DVD. Unless it is different with singers somehow.

**antceleb12** · 06-26-2012, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Is it true they are a footnote in history? They seems to be the subject of major debate just like the Beach Boys and Beatles and Rolling Stones; the history seems endless..........

And if awards are the issues, yes, the Supremes have been overlooked but the lead singer on the hits hasn't been; I dont know what other awards people think she should receive. And realistically, are the Grammys now going to give a Lifetime Achievement Award to the group? That just isn't in the cards.

I'm never sure I agree when the subject is raised that the Supremes are overlooked, that they didn't receive recognition and awards; perhaps it is true of the group, but not Diana Ross.

I agree that the Supremes are regarded by many as the top female group of all-time...that is, much of the attention gets placed on Diana. But the Supremes do not have the same status as the Beatles. Meaning that if you ask the average Joe to list 10 songs by the Beatles and list all of its members, chances are they can do it. Ask the same question about the Supremes, and you may get "Stop!" or "Hurry Love," and you'll get Diana Ross, but the average Joe does not know "The Happening" [[let's face it, that's a pretty obscure hit these days), or who Florence Ballard or Mary Wilson are.

**jobeterob** · 06-26-2012, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by jillfoster

I wouldn't be entirely sure that permission would even be required to release these DVD's. Releases are signed at time of filming, I know almost no actor on a sitcom is asked permission or even compensated when TV series are released on DVD. Unless it is different with singers somehow.

I dont think it is different. At the end, doesn't it says Produced by NBC and Schlatter Productions or something like that? Or Motown?

George refers to "jointly" owned; if the artists matters, there would be dozens and they'd all get 8 cents.

I thought I heard before there was some issue with the Laugh In guy or company that produced it with Berry or NBC.

**franjoy56** · 06-27-2012, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by soulballad

The Florence Ballard and Supremes story is extremely complex. Most of their story have been exaggerated both with the good and the bad. The weight issue and the drinking has been made a bigger deal than it really was. Flo drank but they all drank! Flo was curvier but she was always curvier. If weight had been an issue Cindy would have nerver been asked in the group because they were about the same size. Flo was a great singer but she was no Jennifer Holiday [[in fact no Supreme or anyone on Motown ever was a powerhouse vocalist in Jennifers league). Diana was a good vocal stylist perfect for the popish copa/crossover sound. I really dont think Flo cared much about who sang lead, especially after she started to see other things going down at the company inside and outside of the group [[that's another story in itself and water under the bridge) Most of the stuff we get now is simply fans projections.

DMF started off as friends but they became just co-workers and every grouping of Supremes after that were simply just co-workers, which explains why a lot of the magic was gone.

The arrangement to "People" is horrible. The music always reminds me of a school recital. With a little work and a different arrangement it could have worked out just fine. In some parts of the song it seems like Mary's and Diana's vocals are dragging or are off or something. It just seems there was no effort put into making the song a mainstay. Florence should have been given a song that was more of a rocker.

It's really sad that after all the hard work of each Supreme [[and HDH and the funks etc. etc) and all of their major accomplishments that they have become somewhat of a footnote in rock and roll history.

If that story is true of Flo singing People in her dressing room with everyone outside applauding much to Ross' dismay, then I think Flo should have sung the entire song on the recordings that have been released. Diana cannot hit the high notes like Flo can in that song [[just listen to the Funny Girl version) and yes Ross did get more training in etiquette, grooming and vocal coaching while Mary and Flo sat around. Flo was not given the same training as Ms. Ross and it shows but Flo held her own and the tv performances are proof in the pudding especially "My Favorite Things" and yes maybe they have become just a footnote to many, but to the diehard fans you can never fool us.

**Roberta75** · 06-27-2012, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

If that story is true of Flo singing People in her dressing room with everyone outside applauding much to Ross' dismay, then I think Flo should have sung the entire song on the recordings that have been released. Diana cannot hit the high notes like Flo can in that song [[just listen to the Funny Girl version) and yes Ross did get more training in etiquette, grooming and vocal coaching while Mary and Flo sat around. Flo was not given the same training as Ms. Ross and it shows but Flo held her own and the tv performances are proof in the pudding especially "My Favorite Things" and yes maybe they have become just a footnote to many, but to the diehard fans you can never fool us.

Thank you Frances for keeping Flo's legacy alive. Flo's "My Favorite Things" is magnificent but it makes me sad every time I hear it. It makes me think of what might have been had Diane Ross, Mary Wilson and Berry Gordy had shown Florence more kindness and understanding. Tragically that was not to be. Sad, so very very sad.

Roberta

**stephanie** · 06-27-2012, 09:04 PM

I still think that Florence Ballard was a strong singer and if given the opportunity she could shine! When I read Tony Turners books I couldnt stop laughing. One of the best fact/fiction books I have ever read. I sometimes wish he would come out and say why there are no pics of him and Flo. If Flo had been in the dressing room singing People like that I think Mary would have told it. That is something that a person would forget.

**johnjeb** · 06-27-2012, 09:53 PM

I've seen a couple of posts recently questioning why no pictures have ever surfaced with Flo and Tony Turner. Certainly a good question. I recall seeing him with Mary Wilson on her book tours and performances in the 80s. As I was looking through my Supremes memorabilia last night for some pictures I needed I came across pictures of me at a couple of Mary's events. Lo and behold standing next to me was none other than Tony Turner! I completely forgot I had those pics. I laughed when I saw them. I thought, well at least I have a couple of pictures of me with Tony Turner.

**luke** · 06-28-2012, 08:12 PM

It's interesting how this downgrading of Flo [[and often of Mary too) often occurs--more revisionist history. Otis Williams among numerous others have raved about Flo's talent. Do you really think Motown was committed to presenting her in the best possible light??

**Jimi LaLumia** · 06-28-2012, 08:31 PM

it's not a downgrading...it's a reality check...the evidence is in the recordings, live performances,and pattern of behavior..

**detmotownguy** · 06-28-2012, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by luke

It's interesting how this downgrading of Flo [[and often of Mary too) often occurs--more revisionist history. Otis Williams among numerous others have raved about Flo's talent. Do you really think Motown was committed to presenting her in the best possible light??

Valid comment Luke. It is interesting how many people associated with Motown back in the day were impressed with Flo and her voice. Her version of People was just fine-loud and clear!

**antceleb12** · 06-28-2012, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

it's not a downgrading...it's a reality check...the evidence is in the recordings, live performances,and pattern of behavior..

Behavior has little to do with talent. You could have one of the best voices in the world, but be a total diva [[Patti, Dionne, Barbara, anyone?). Also, I happen to think Florence was very talented, as do many, many others. There is and was an audience for her, but just not one Berry wanted to market to. It's not a reality check...people who believe that Florence was talented are equally as correct as those who believe that she wasn't. And how much of Florence do we have in terms of live recordings? Hardly any solos at all.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 06-28-2012, 09:43 PM

why should she have solos? she wasn't a lead singer..listen to the solo CD of her ABC Records unreleased album to get an idea of the quality of her solos...

**antceleb12** · 06-28-2012, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

why should she have solos? she wasn't a lead singer..listen to the solo CD of her ABC Records unreleased album to get an idea of the quality of her solos...

I have heard it, and yes, its terrible. But her stuff with the Supremes was much better than that - in my opinion. Frankly, I think the production, the songwriting, the songs, and the fact that she was pregnant didn't help. Not trying to make excuses, but I don't think her ABC album and the stuff she did with the Supremes are comparable.

Maybe she could have been a lead singer. Who knows? Diana wasn't exactly mind-blowing when she started out either, but she was developed to be one. And who says who have to be a "lead singer" to have solos? The group started out with all of them sharing leads. And they each had their share of solos for a while. Mary wasn't known for her boisterous singing like Flo was, but after Diane left, she got quite a bit of solos. Grant it, she never became a superstar like Ross, but at least she was able to showcase her abilities - even in the 1970 "Farewell" concert, she had two solos and had some monologues.

**jobeterob** · 06-28-2012, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by luke

It's interesting how this downgrading of Flo [[and often of Mary too) often occurs--more revisionist history. Otis Williams among numerous others have raved about Flo's talent. Do you really think Motown was committed to presenting her in the best possible light??

A couple points:

If Motown wasn't committed to presenting Flo in the best possible light, ABC did a much worse job. They made Motown look good. Flo's best work, her remembered work comes from Berry and Motown and the Supremes - her duets with Diana - Manhattan, Nothing But Heartaches, Come See About Me, and Ain't that Good News and O Holy Night.

What's the revision? One version is that Florence and Mary were background singers without much in the way of distinctive voices. Are we trying to revise history to say Florence, at least, had a distinctive voice? Otis would hardly be someone to talk about lead singers and distinctive voices but he definitely might be somebody that could relate to Florence Ballard in addition to being a friend and lover.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 06-28-2012, 10:48 PM

one of my very favorite sayings......

"it's lonely at the top........
that's because it's so very crowded at the bottom!"....

**Jimi LaLumia** · 06-28-2012, 10:50 PM

and Ross developed from day one, without objection from Mary or Flo in the beginning,because she had charisma and star appeal...neither of the other two did, at least nowhere near the degree of Ross...
both Mary and Flo shined when standing with Diana Ross on stage...
standing on their own?......not so much...

**Roberta75** · 06-28-2012, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

one of my very favorite sayings......

"it's lonely at the top........
that's because it's so very crowded at the bottom!"....

And while I believe Diane Ross deserved to be at the top because her voice and drive pushed the Supremes to mega stardom, did Florence really have be be pushed to the bottom and left there? Surely her old friends Diane and Mary could have stuck up for her more and couldn't Mr. Gordy have shown more compassion and paid for Flo to dry out and stay off the liquor? It breaks my heart when I think of poor Flo. Tragic, heartbreaking and tragic. Mercifully Florence is an angel in heaven now, and with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God bless you Flo. You will never be forgotten.

"nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons and daughters of God, being sons and daughters of the resurrection."

Roberta

**franjoy56** · 06-28-2012, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

A couple points:

If Motown wasn't committed to presenting Flo in the best possible light, ABC did a much worse job. They made Motown look good. Flo's best work, her remembered work comes from Berry and Motown and the Supremes - her duets with Diana - Manhattan, Nothing But Heartaches, Come See About Me, and Ain't that Good News and O Holy Night.

What's the revision? One version is that Florence and Mary were background singers without much in the way of distinctive voices. Are we trying to revise history to say Florence, at least, had a distinctive voice? Otis would hardly be someone to talk about lead singers and distinctive voices but he definitely might be somebody that could relate to Florence Ballard in addition to being a friend and lover.

I hate these summations on how Flo was not a lead singer and how people still believe that Diana was the Supremes, she was not and without
Mary and to a larger degree Florence Ballard backing the Ross leads on all those tracks where would diana be, Diana would not have made it as a solo singer in 1965, Florence Ballard was a lead singer, just not the kind of lead singer Berry was interested in promoting period. Even on the eve of her Birthday we have detractors who are content in dismissing her as a vocal talent. Perhaps if you heard Flo's lead on "The Night Time is the Right Time" and others she front as the Supremes/Primettes lead singer you detractors would understand there was a distinct difference between a Soul singer which Flo was "Ain't that Good News" "Long Gone Lover" "It makes no difference Now" "Like You Babe" and a pop singer that Diana was "Baby Love" "I hear A Symphony" "My World Is Empty" and in which Berry was intent on promoting even if it meant the Supremes would stop dead in their success. Flo you still reign Supreme and a early Happy Birthday.

**antceleb12** · 06-28-2012, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

I hate these summations on how Flo was not a lead singer and how people still believe that Diana was the Supremes, she was not and without
Mary and to a larger degree Florence Ballard backing the Ross leads on all those tracks where would diana be, Diana would not have made it as a solo singer in 1965, Florence Ballard was a lead singer, just not the kind of lead singer Berry was interested in promoting period. Even on the eve of her Birthday we have detractors who are content in dismissing her as a vocal talent. Perhaps if you heard Flo's lead on "The Night Time is the Right Time" and others she front as the Supremes/Primettes lead singer you detractors would understand there was a distinct difference between a Soul singer which Flo was "Ain't that Good News" "Long Gone Lover" "It makes no difference Now" "Like You Babe" and a pop singer that Diana was "Baby Love" "I hear A Symphony" "My World Is Empty" and in which Berry was intent on promoting even if it meant the Supremes would stop dead in their success. Flo you still reign Supreme and a early Happy Birthday.

I agree 100%. Just because Florence wasn't a pop singer, and might not have attracted such a large "white" audience, it doesn't mean Florence wasn't a lead singer. There's more to it than being pop-y. She had the confidence and the will, but wasn't willing to do some of the things that Diana did which made her unpopular among other Motown acts. I love each of the Supremes and think that they could have each found their niche. I also agree that Diana was not the sole reason why she became a success. Flo & Mary provided lush harmonies, and had their own stage patter. And their sound was much more mature than other girl groups' sound of that time.