Is It Funk, Funky, or Something Else? Opinions Needed

[Jerry Oz]

There's a great debate on another post as to what constitutes "funk". I'm wondering if it's just an opinion and who might agree about what is a "funk song" vs. a song that is "funky" vs. something altogether different. Please link up songs and offer opinions as to whether they should be considered as funk, funky, or non-funk. First for submission is one of my favorites by Stanley Clarke and George Duke: "Wild Dog". Although some might call it jazz, IMO the bass, piano, and drums [[played to perfection by John Robinson) make this a funk song. Opinions?

[timmyfunk]

I want paste something that I wrote on my Facebook that pretty much sums up my feelings about this particular issue. In an earlier response, I stated to another person that you have various bands that play Funk and play it very well. P-Funk IS Funk! The conversation went back and forth. And then finally I had to elaborate on my stance, which is somewhat similar to the question you're asking now.

FROM MY FACEBOOK PAGE FROM 2010:

I think it would be better for me to speak for myself in this matter. As I have explained before, I have various levels of Funk in my collection. They all represent various levels of importance to the African-American culture and, in the lo...ng run, American culture. In that universe there are soldiers and generals. Those that execute the charge and those who lead it. Those who set the standard for others to follow, and those who carry out that standard. I have always maintained that JB, Sly and P-Funk are standard bearers. The ones that have executed that standard have already acknowledged this with more clarity than I ever could. In the simplest of terms, I don't think I would be getting this kind of response to both photo albums if I were uploading photos of Slave, ConFunkShun, the Bar-Kays, the Ohio Players, etc.. EWF...maybe. In all forms of music there are soldiers and leaders. It doesn't mean that one entity possesses more importance than another, but it does mean that we have specific roles to play in trying to achieve the bigger picture.
I do hope that I don't have to go down this road again.

The numerous acts that use to serve as an example of those who's music defines Funk are the standard by which I compare others by. Many acts may have elements of Funk in it, but they wouldn't be considered full blown Funk [[at least by my definition).

[timmyfunk]

There's a great debate on another post as to what constitutes "funk". I'm wondering if it's just an opinion and who might agree about what is a "funk song" vs. a song that is "funky" vs. something altogether different. Please link up songs and offer opinions as to whether they should be considered as funk, funky, or non-funk. First for submission is one of my favorites by Stanley Clarke and George Duke: "Wild Dog". Although some might call it jazz, IMO the bass, piano, and drums [[played to perfection by John Robinson) make this a funk song. Opinions?

This certainly has elements of Funk incorporated in it. It does lean more towards Funk than Jazz.

[Jerry Oz]

Timmyfunk, thanks for the response. I'm sure many people have different ideas of funk. Likewise, some tunes might be considered to be "funky" while on the edge of what is actual funk. This came to me when someone was considering Whitney Houston's "Thinking of You" to be funk. To me, it was and remains more bubblegum than funk, but that's my opinion.

Consider LaBelle's "Lady Marmalade", which I think is one of the all-time funk classics. The remake for "Moulin Rouge" a few years ago paled mightily in comparison. It was too glossy and overly produced to even be considered funky in my book, but I'm sure the ladies who sang it would disagree with my assessment.

If there is one element that makes a funk song, I believe it's performing music with an attitude that is more raw and emotional than typical commercial music. It is, beyond a doubt, fun music that will stir good feelings and compel one to dance if done well. I hear funk in the music of Living Colour as well as in pumped and percussive beats in go-go music. I think what I am hearing is the epitome of what "soul music" is, even though Living Colour was a rock band and go-go music was more for dancing. It is music that stirs your soul as much as makes you want to dance until you pass out.

[timmyfunk]

Jerry, there was a similar thread on this board a couple of years ago called "What makes Funk....Funk?". It addresses the same issues you are bringing up now. If you can go into the archives to around 2008-2010, I'm sure you'll find it.

[soulster]

Jerry, that Duke/Clarke Project cut is straight-up funk!

To me, Whitney's "Thinking About You" is straight R&B. I think the funk got lost in the mix. Seriously. The mix makes all the difference in the world. Do you recall the early version of Earth, Wind & Fire's "Shining Star", where the band was just noodling around in the studio? It's on the boxed set. Anyway, it wasn't funk. But, it took some radical decisions in the mixing stage to make it funky. Now, what was once a miserable bunch of playing is now a tight funk classic that, BTW, hit #1 on both the Billboard R&B and Hot 100 charts!

Sure, "Lady Marmalade" by Labelle is straight-up funk! But, it's too often thought of as disco by those who don't know any better.

[Jerry Oz]

Here is another instrumental that, in my opinion embodies the concept. The bass works so well with the drums to make the song work. The fact that Pleasure used live drums and the drummer just goes nuts somewhere along the way makes this one of my favorites to turn up loud when I'm driving alone.

[timmyfunk]

Timmyfunk, thanks for the response. I'm sure many people have different ideas of funk. Likewise, some tunes might be considered to be "funky" while on the edge of what is actual funk. This came to me when someone was considering Whitney Houston's "Thinking of You" to be funk. To me, it was and remains more bubblegum than funk, but that's my opinion.

Consider LaBelle's "Lady Marmalade", which I think is one of the all-time funk classics. The remake for "Moulin Rouge" a few years ago paled mightily in comparison. It was too glossy and overly produced to even be considered funky in my book, but I'm sure the ladies who sang it would disagree with my assessment.

If there is one element that makes a funk song, I believe it's performing music with an attitude that is more raw and emotional than typical commercial music. It is, beyond a doubt, fun music that will stir good feelings and compel one to dance if done well. I hear funk in the music of Living Colour as well as in pumped and percussive beats in go-go music. I think what I am hearing is the epitome of what "soul music" is, even though Living Colour was a rock band and go-go music was more for dancing. It is music that stirs your soul as much as makes you want to dance until you pass out.

Well, we know why Lady Marmalade earned it's Funk chops. The Meters are the backing band on that record. It's gonna be Funky no matter how you look at it.

[chidrummer]

I would never call Wild Dog jazz. It has improvisation, but I like the term instrumental R&B better. That cut and the Pleasure tune lean a bit more toward Fusion for my taste. How about the Clarke/Duke remake of Mothership Connection a taste of some major Funk?

[daddyacey]

"Funky/Funk" has been around for a long time in concept. In my studies of American music I find that Funk is a groove ,actually a feeling in it's raw form.FUNK is like an endorphin ,an aural aphrodisac , like chocolate it puts you in a certain place. Funky and or Funk is a form of synchopation as is say Rag-Time has a certain time signature ,Folk,Classical and Opera, Big Band of the 40's, Barber Shop etc. They don't have any Funk elements in them at all.They don't give you the same rush as FUNK. FUNK is part of The Blues ,Bop-and Post Bop Jazz, Big Band "Swing" [[to an extent). There is a thin line between FUNK and R&B. You don't have to have Bass and Drums to have FUNK. Any instrument can deliver the FUNK. [[See Stevie on Fingertips for example). Ellington for example is not as Funky per say as Basie's piano work on "One O Clock Jump" and other works of his , Art Blakey's drum solo on the intro of "A Night In Tunisia"[[FUNKY), the intro of Coltranes "A Love Supreme"[[FUNKY) , Dizzy's "Manteca" , which had Latin/Calypso elements , which are percussive yet Funky and became more Funk laden in it's evolution into Ska/Reggae. Miles Davis ,"All Blues" is a Funky ass composition. They call it Modal Jazz ,which evolved from Bop but if you listen to the classic Bop tunes of the day and certian "Modal Jazz" cuts of the late 50's early 60's ,the Funk is constant ,at some point in all. Mongo Santamarias "Watermelon Man",so nasty, Herbie Manns ,"Coming Home Baby" all considered jazz but at the core was the FUNK but not enough to be considered pure FUNK , but FUNKY. The timing is the key that gives you that FUNKY feeling. Fast forward to J.B. ,Sly , Larry Graham, Jimi Hendrix's "Rainy Day", Johnny Taylors ,"Bring It On Home To Me" a prime example as the FUNK version of Sam Cookes track. The amount of FUNK that is in a recording [[to me) determines if it is Funky or is FUNK. Hall and Oates , "I Can't Go For That" for example is a Funky tune IMO as opposed to J.B.'s "Papa" or "Give It Up" ,where as James is straight up FUNK. As George Clinton said ,"FUNK UNCUT", The Bomb , straight no chaser, oop's upside your head. Doobies etc in your FUNK , makes it FUNKY , sounds like it has a "one" on it which aint a bad thing. But J.B. defined just what FUNK is and where it comes from, like the yolk of an egg ,the nectar of a flower ,straight up FUNK is found.......on the ONE. You can have varied degrees of the ONE ,that build up gradual or have other elements added to it. You find FUNKY/FUNKYNESS in many places ,I think that GrandFunk's second album from the 70's ,a so called Rock group has FUNKY tracks on it but I feel ,Chicago's ,"I'm A Man" is a FUNK track ,just enough FUNKYNESS in it to push it to the FUNK rating where as Slave's "Slide" ,is just overdose ,FUNK tar tar/sushi. Theres FUNK and there is FUNKY.

[ollie]

Everything can be FUNK, but you have too add some special ingredients to it. Like feeling, and soul, maybe some Rock, a universal rhythm, some love and understanding, and some sweat.

The term Funk means a lot of things, to a lot of people. If we compare Funk with any other style, or even try to define the term Funk, we get lost.
Funk from the early days, comes in various feelings, like the Blues, Gospel, Jazz, R&B, Rock Roll and other influences. Chuck Berry, Ray Charles, Howlin Wolf, Bo Diddley, Muddy Waters, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis and even Mozart, Bach, Beethoven truly are funky, but they are funky in a bluesy, gospel, r&b, rock roll, classical or jazzy kind of way. Which i think is great. For without them, we wouldn't have enjoyed the fantastic and funky grooves, that the next generation came up with.

Jimi Hendrix, James Brown, Sly Stone, George Clinton, Fela Kuti and Bootsy have created a special FUNK formula*, that one could build on.*with help of many other people. A Funk sound that can't be duplicated, very unique and special.



On the other hand Funk comes in many colors, everything that touches your soul, and enables you to make a difference towards the good, is Funky. So, if it's George Duke [[whom is really Funky) with Stanley Clarke [[whom is one of the Funkiest bass players around) it is fine with me.

[timmyfunk]

Everything can be FUNK, but you have too add some special ingredients to it. Like feeling, and soul, maybe some Rock, a universal rhythm, some love and understanding, and some sweat.

The term Funk means a lot of things, to a lot of people. If we compare Funk with any other style, or even try to define the term Funk, we get lost.
Funk from the early days, comes in various feelings, like the Blues, Gospel, Jazz, R&B, Rock Roll and other influences. Chuck Berry, Ray Charles, Howlin Wolf, Bo Diddley, Muddy Waters, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis and even Mozart, Bach, Beethoven truly are funky, but they are funky in a bluesy, gospel, r&b, rock roll, classical or jazzy kind of way. Which i think is great. For without them, we wouldn't have enjoyed the fantastic and funky grooves, that the next generation came up with.

Jimi Hendrix, James Brown, Sly Stone, George Clinton, Fela Kuti and Bootsy have created a special FUNK formula*, that one could build on.*with help of many other people. A Funk sound that can't be duplicated, very unique and special.



On the other hand Funk comes in many colors, everything that touches your soul, and enables you to make a difference towards the good, is Funky. So, if it's George Duke [[whom is really Funky) with Stanley Clarke [[whom is one of the Funkiest bass players around) it is fine with me.

While you may have had performers that included elements of Funk in their music, James Brown was definitely the first main architect of what the world would come to know as Funk. His development of "The One" [[aided by Clyde Stubblefield and Jimmy Nolen) gives the music it's very definition. Funk may come in lots of colors, but JB is the one supplied future generations with the right paint brushes. There are others that may have incorporated elements of Funk into their music at one point during their careers. The ones who define the genre took Funk on as a mission. That's probably why they're the one that supply the narrative.

[Jerry Oz]

James Brown is definitely the godfather of Funk. Rhythms that were tightly played but designed to be "raw" at the same time. Some songs had the same groove going from beginning to end. Lyrics that were disjointed and sung in a manner that the voice was as instrumental to the feeling and groove as the horns and rhythm section. Oh, and the very embodiment of the term "rhythm section". He changed musicians' minds as to what was allowed from a structural standpoint and turned commercial music on its ear and all fans of Funk music owe him their gratitude.