Something I had to say about Whitney!

**DwightTurner** · 02-25-2012, 10:53 PM

Have people forgot that Whitney Houston was a HUMAN BEING. What that means people, is that she was not exempt from having vices! We ALL have issues... YES, she was America's sweetheart, YES she was/is an icon... But NONE of that takes away from the fact that she had demons to battle just like we all do.. I have been reading some comments that were made about her on SDF, Youtube to name a few, and I'm like, "WTF!" People calling her "crackhead" etc... Okay, she went through her issue with drugs, and she by her own admittance said that she had to take being clean one day at a time...That woman was somebody's daughter, mother, sister, aunt, close friend.... How can we point fingers at her because she have skeletons in her closet... Hell...some of you [[and not talking about YOU personally but hey...a kicked dog will holler) but some of you have skeletons in your closet too... and some of your skeletons still have meat on them. It just sickens me how people have so much to say about her in such a negative way, and we forget that it could very well be YOU.. Just like people are now talking about her taking her life because she couldn't have the life of being a lesbian that she wanted... I just don't get it.. People are so inconsiderate of her family's feelings right now that it is almost unbelievable. People have been crucifying her for too long.. People have given her a hard time while she was here with us, and I'll be damned if they aren't giving her a hard time in death. Let her rest. Whitney is at rest! I know that this thread will probably get some negative feedback but thats ok too.. People need to understand that addiction is an illness and is something serious...

**stephanie** · 02-25-2012, 11:03 PM

I agree with you! The fervor will die down like it did with Michael Jackson.

**marv2** · 02-26-2012, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by DwightTurner

Have people forgot that Whitney Houston was a HUMAN BEING. What that means people, is that she was not exempt from having vices! We ALL have issues... YES, she was America's sweetheart, YES she was/is an icon... But NONE of that takes away from the fact that she had demons to battle just like we all do.. I have been reading some comments that were made about her on SDF, Youtube to name a few, and I'm like, "WTF!" People calling her "crackhead" etc... Okay, she went through her issue with drugs, and she by her own admittance said that she had to take being clean one day at a time...That woman was somebody's daughter, mother, sister, aunt, close friend.... How can we point fingers at her because she have skeletons in her closet... Hell...some of you [[and not talking about YOU personally but hey...a kicked dog will holler) but some of you have skeletons in your closet too... and some of your skeletons still have meat on them. It just sickens me how people have so much to say about her in such a negative way, and we forget that it could very well be YOU.. Just like people are now talking about her taking her life because she couldn't have the life of being a lesbian that she wanted... I just don't get it.. People are so inconsiderate of her family's feelings right now that it is almost unbelievable. People have been crucifying her for too long.. People have given her a hard time while she was here with us, and I'll be damned if they aren't giving her a hard time in death. Let her rest. Whitney is at rest! I know that this thread will probably get some negative feedback but thats ok too.. People need to understand that addiction is an illness and is something serious...

Dwight you summed up a lot of thoughts I've been having since this all happened. I've seen the dirt, the lowdown comments a lot of it and for what? Because she made beautiful music and shared her gift with the World? That must be it because none of those people trashing her now even knew her. This reminds me of something I said recently to a friend and that being the most qualified people will not run for public office because they don't want to endure the excessive scrutiny.

Sure we've all heard about Whitney's issue [[bless her). She even had the courage to admit to them in a very public way. One thing I can say is I believe she was a very good person aside from all of that. I do not recall stories of her mistreatment of people and being nasty as a rule. Bless her.

**marv2** · 02-26-2012, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by stephanie

I agree with you! The fervor will die down like it did with Michael Jackson.

I know you are right ,but didn't they try hard to drag Michael through the mud before they found someone or something new to attack?

**abfan** · 02-26-2012, 12:13 AM

I agree.Im one of her sdf supporter's..BTW please dont mention 'In the Closet'..You may offend some around here

**marv2** · 02-26-2012, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by abfan

I agree.Im one of her sdf supporter's..BTW please dont mention 'In the Closet'..You may offend some around here

hehehehehehehe......!

**timmyfunk** · 02-26-2012, 12:54 AM

This is the reason why I'm not going to change my opinion of her. Hell, I didn't really have one outside of what I felt about her music, which I still maintain that I wasn't a fan of. It would be quite hypocritical for me to jump on the "love after the fact' bandwagon when I know that anyone could punch up earlier comments that I've made about her. I still respect her as a performer and I wish her family well during this very difficult time.

**soulster** · 02-26-2012, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by DwightTurner

Have people forgot that Whitney Houston was a HUMAN BEING. What that means people, is that she was not exempt from having vices! We ALL have issues... YES, she was America's sweetheart, YES she was/is an icon... But NONE of that takes away from the fact that she had demons to battle just like we all do.. I have been reading some comments that were made about her on SDF, Youtube to name a few, and I'm like, "WTF!" People calling her "crackhead" etc... Okay, she went through her issue with drugs, and she by her own admittance said that she had to take being clean one day at a time...That woman was somebody's daughter, mother, sister, aunt, close friend.... How can we point fingers at her because she have skeletons in her closet... Hell...some of you [[and not talking about YOU personally but hey...a kicked dog will holler) but some of you have skeletons in your closet too... and some of your skeletons still have meat on them. It just sickens me how people have so much to say about her in such a negative way, and we forget that it could very well be YOU.. Just like people are now talking about her taking her life because she couldn't have the life of being a lesbian that she wanted... I just don't get it.. People are so inconsiderate of her family's feelings right now that it is almost unbelievable. People have been crucifying her for too long.. People have given her a hard time while she was here with us, and I'll be damned if they aren't giving her a hard time in death. Let her rest. Whitney is at rest! I know that this thread will probably get some negative feedback but thats ok too.. People need to understand that addiction is an illness and is something serious...

Perhaps it's time to step back from the computer and not read the gossip rags on the newsstand.

**soulster** · 02-26-2012, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by stephanie

I agree with you! The fervor will die down like it did with Michael Jackson.

You mean like a mass group of French [[or was it Italian?) Michael Jackson fans who very recently tried a civil sue Dr. Conrad Murray for their pain and suffering as a result of his role in MJ's death?

**soulster** · 02-26-2012, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by timmyfunk

This is the reason why I'm not going to change my opinion of her. Hell, I didn't really have one outside of what I felt about her music, which I still maintain that I wasn't a fan of. It would be quite hypocritical for me to jump on the "love after the fact' bandwagon when I know that anyone could punch up earlier comments that I've made about her. I still respect her as a performer and I wish her family well during this very difficult time.

Last week, as a result of all the hoopla, decided to go through and listen to her albums. Honestly, I really don't care for much of her music. The first, and part of the second album are kind of good, and maybe two or three songs after that, but her music was nothing to write home about. I think she wasted her voice on pap.

**splanky** · 02-26-2012, 08:12 AM

Okay, let me add my 4 cents to this discussion...sorry, folks, inflation...
Anyhoo, I have to co-sign Dwight original comments at the top of this thread. thank you sir! I'd also like to say that
though her roots were in soul and gospel Whitney sought and found sucess as a POP singer. We all tend to judge music
based on our own reference points and taste and if you were coming from a funk, blues, jazz or hardcore soul perspective much of Whitney's music would have left you cold and there's nothing wrong with that. As I've said before
I've never been a big fan of her music, I didn't gobble up her records or follow her career as I have most of my favorites
but to I wouldn't say she wasted her voice on pap because she was free to record whatever she wanted whether I liked
it or not. I didn't care for I"m Every Woman for instance, not hers, not even Chaka Khan's and I was a Chakaholic...So
what? She did other stuff that I enjoyed hearing on the radio throughout her career and I really liked her voice on the Bill
Laswell project with Archie Shepp, a guy who played with John Coltrane [[!) on tenor...I'm not going to tell people they
should revisit her catalog but I will say @ Tim, I've known a lot of people who've only come to appreciate a particular
artist AFTER their passing. There are people today just learning who Gary Shider was and what his place was in P-Funk
many who may not even have been born when he made his debut with the group...If folks don't like Whitney, fine,
but why come on a thread about her now that she's gone to bash her?...I can think of a few artists I don't care for but
I prefer to keep my opinions off of threads that celebrate them for the most part. Not always, but I try. Unless you wanna talk about IAN LEVINE!

.....

**soulster** · 02-26-2012, 08:35 AM

Heh! I dig Chaka Khan's original "I'm Every Woman". It's at the right tempo with a very dense, lush mix, the way I like it. Houston's cover is nothing but a hip-hop influenced imitation.

I listened to all you did including a lot of pop music, so I have no problem there. My issue with her music is that it has an 80s aesthetic, and there is a lot about the 80s music that I don't like.

**timmyfunk** · 02-26-2012, 11:37 AM

splanky said: @ Tim, I've known a lot of people who've only come to appreciate a particular
artist AFTER their passing. There are people today just learning who Gary Shider was and what his place was in P-Funk
many who may not even have been born when he made his debut with the group...If folks don't like Whitney, fine,
but why come on a thread about her now that she's gone to bash her?...I can think of a few artists I don't care for but I prefer to keep my opinions off of threads that celebrate them for the most part. Not always, but I try. Unless you wanna talk about IAN LEVINE!

.....

Yeah, but there is a huge difference. Whitney's music is, at some point, inescapable. It's heard damn near everywhere and usually represents the biggest selling music of it's day. Any appreciation of Garry Shider and P-Funk in general, usually comes from not being properly exposed to their music the first time around. This is why I will always maintain that the P-Funk catalog needs a thorough and extensive re-evaluation. Whitney's music simply doesn't generate the same level of re-analysis. It's so....how should I say...omni-present, that you re-examination would be gratuitous. I don't think there is any bashing going on here [[at least on this thread).

**splanky** · 02-26-2012, 12:38 PM

Tim, believe it or not I travel in circles where Whtiney's music is not at all as omni-prescent as it seems to the folks you
know. In fact I along with some other jazz maniacs I know had to go back and listen to tracks of Whitney's to remember
what an instrument she had. Anyway, I'll just say may she rest in peace....

**Kamasu_Jr** · 02-26-2012, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by splanky

Tim, believe it or not I travel in circles where Whtiney's music is not at all as omni-prescent as it seems to the folks you
know. In fact I along with some other jazz maniacs I know had to go back and listen to tracks of Whitney's to remember
what an instrument she had. Anyway, I'll just say may she rest in peace....

Yes, her records were pop and OVERPLAYED million sellers, but her true gift was in how she performed those pop tunes live. There were times [[during the early part of her career) when she could be near brilliant with her phrasing and note bending. She seldom sang a song the same way twice. WHEN SHE WAS INSPIRED, SHE COULD MOVE YOU.

**DwightTurner** · 02-26-2012, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kamasu_Jr

Yes, her records were pop and OVERPLAYED million sellers, but her true gift was in how she performed those pop tunes live. There were times [[during the early part of her career) when she could be near brilliant with her phrasing and note bending. She seldom sang a song the same way twice. WHEN SHE WAS INSPIRED, SHE COULD MOVE YOU.

You are right Kamasu_Jr... Whitney could move you! And you're right about her not singing a song the same way twice!.... That was the beauty of her music.. I've been a fan of hers since I was in the Kindergarten [[1988) and I heard her sing "One Moment In Time" at the grammys. That was even different from the various other times she sang it live.

**timmyfunk** · 02-26-2012, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by splanky

Tim, believe it or not I travel in circles where Whtiney's music is not at all as omni-prescent as it seems to the folks you
know. In fact I along with some other jazz maniacs I know had to go back and listen to tracks of Whitney's to remember
what an instrument she had. Anyway, I'll just say may she rest in peace....

Unless those jazz maniacs lived somewhere like...Burma, they couldn't possibly avoid her music. Yes, she had a wonderful voice, but she just didn't appeal to me on any meaningful level.

**timmyfunk** · 02-26-2012, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kamasu_Jr

Yes, her records were pop and OVERPLAYED million sellers, but her true gift was in how she performed those pop tunes live. There were times [[during the early part of her career) when she could be near brilliant with her phrasing and note bending. She seldom sang a song the same way twice. WHEN SHE WAS INSPIRED, SHE COULD MOVE YOU.

Yes, I've heard more live Whitney than I cared to. Didn't change anything.

After the 1970's, my musical taste went somewhat underground. Some rap, Washington D.C. Go-Go, Fela, Gil Scott-Heron, Teena Marie, some Prince [[serious cherry picking going on), and the various surviving P-Funk off shoots. The bulk of post-1970's black pop [[Corporate Black Music Syndrome) was something that I found to be abyssmal. There is crossover and then there was that upper echelon of black pop that was virtually unlistenable. Whitney's voice may have the saving grace of some otherwise very bland music. But not enough to for me to fork down money for it.

Again, I respect her as a performer, but her recent passing ain't gonna inspire me to browse through the cut out racks for a affordable greatest hits comp.

Laurel · 02-26-2012, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by DwightTurner

Have people forgot that Whitney Houston was a HUMAN BEING. What that means people, is that she was not exempt from having vices! We ALL have issues... YES, she was America's sweetheart, YES she was/is an icon... But NONE of that takes away from the fact that she had demons to battle just like we all do.. I have been reading some comments that were made about her on SDF, Youtube to name a few, and I'm like, "WTF!" People calling her "crackhead" etc... Okay, she went through her issue with drugs, and she by her own admittance said that she had to take being clean one day at a time...That woman was somebody's daughter, mother, sister, aunt, close friend.... How can we point fingers at her because she have skeletons in her closet... Hell...some of you [[and not talking about YOU personally but hey...a kicked dog will holler) but some of you have skeletons in your closet too... and some of your skeletons still have meat on them. It just sickens me how people have so much to say about her in such a negative way, and we forget that it could very well be YOU.. Just like people are now talking about her taking her life because she couldn't have the life of being a lesbian that she wanted... I just don't get it.. People are so inconsiderate of her family's feelings right now that it is almost unbelievable. People have been crucifying her for too long.. People have given her a hard time while she was here with us, and I'll be damned if they aren't giving her a hard time in death. Let her rest. Whitney is at rest! I know that this thread will probably get some negative feedback but thats ok too.. People need to understand that addiction is an illness and is something serious...

I completely agree.

**daddyacey** · 02-27-2012, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by DwightTurner

Have people forgot that Whitney Houston was a HUMAN BEING. What that means people, is that she was not exempt from having vices! We ALL have issues... YES, she was America's sweetheart, YES she was/is an icon... But NONE of that takes away from the fact that she had demons to battle just like we all do.. I have been reading some comments that were made about her on SDF, Youtube to name a few, and I'm like, "WTF!" People calling her "crackhead" etc... Okay, she went through her issue with drugs, and she by her own admittance said that she had to take being clean one day at a time...That woman was somebody's daughter, mother, sister, aunt, close friend.... How can we point fingers at her because she have skeletons in her closet... Hell...some of you [[and not talking about YOU personally but hey...a kicked dog will holler) but some of you have skeletons in your closet too... and some of your skeletons still have meat on them. It just sickens me how people have so much to say about her in such a negative way, and we forget that it could very well be YOU.. Just like people are now talking about her taking her life because she couldn't have the life of being a lesbian that she wanted... I just don't get it.. People are so inconsiderate of her family's feelings right now that it is almost unbelievable. People have been crucifying her for too long.. People have given her a hard time while she was here with us, and I'll be damned if they aren't giving her a hard time in death. Let her rest. Whitney is at rest! I know that this thread will probably get some negative feedback but thats ok too.. People need to understand that addiction is an illness and is something serious...

I agree!!!!!!! And may I add that it also applies to all entertainment icons. Society marvals at excellence of the masters of true talent ,yet will attack the same masters humanity ,based on rumour and media hype. The same treatment is given Gaye ,Winehouse ,Ruffin etc etc.

**splanky** · 02-27-2012, 07:57 AM

timmyfunk said:

Unless those jazz maniacs lived somewhere like...Burma, they couldn't possibly avoid her music

You've totally missed my point, Tim. I never implied that the jazz folk didn't know who she was but for those that
regularly listen to wbgo or kcr as opposed to wbls, who regularly read downbeat and/or Jazztimes as opposed to Vibe,
who visits the websites AllAboutJazz or JazzCorner as opposed to SoulPatrol or whatever and who goes to The Blue Note
or Smoke instead of whatever spot the current R&B crowd favors, it is entirely possible to enjoy life without being
bombarded by the music of Whitney Houston. I know who TPain and Drake are, too but luckily the only place I have to
hear their music constantly is at work. Nobody's trying to sell you on anything...

**abfan** · 02-27-2012, 11:41 AM

A PoP Singer Hmmm...Have you followed her career after her first 2 albums..She was far from Just a pop singer..What do you call Tina Turner then..Most seem to speaking out of dislike for her character not her Music

Just a quick list below..What would you consider these artist..And are they any less talented .Or should we label them addict's or crackhead's and that's that.

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**juicefree20** · 02-27-2012, 01:43 PM

Dwight

Excellent post & one for all of us to consider [[myself included) before sitting behind a monitor offering up criticism, while cloaked in anonymity.

Personally, I dont care who sleeps with who, I don't care what the sexual orientation of ANY celebrity is. So long as they respect my boundaries & that of others, then who they sleep with is no concern of mine.

What I truly dislike is the idea of people taking it upon themselves to decide to expose the personal lives of individuals who made a conscious choice to decide what part[[s) of their lives they wanted made public.

How much worse is it when people do it to dead people whom can neither substantiate nor deny any claims made against them?

Beyond that, what gives anyone the right to take it upon themselves to "out" any individual who chose not to ''out'' themselves?

Even worse than that is when people are willing to attribute anything to people solely based upon speculation, hearsay or assumption. Whether folks want to admit it or not, such behavior indeed smacks of having an agenda. If no agenda were present, why would anyone attempt to disclose "truths" about an individual whom hasn't revealed those "truths" themselves?

In my opinion, it's despicable to do anything of that sort, when the reality is that most times you can't believe most of what you see, much less anything that you hear. How many times have we seen an entertainer stand on a stage talking about their "Number One" record which was actually 38 with no bullet? How many times have we heard folks thanking people for making their song a "million seller", which was recorded for a label which could barely afford to press up 100,000 copies, if even half that many?

"Gold", you say? How about ''cellophane"?

I wish that I could count the number of times that I've read or heard something which when given enough time & being around the right circle[[s) proved to be anything but the truth, as objectivity seems to be far from far too many fans.

But human nature is such that if something lines up with the value system of many, they haven't the objectivity, nor the inclination to take the time to discover whether what they believe or have been told has the scent of truth attached to it. All that is necessary for them is that the information speaks to their heart & it's off to the races.

And a lot of reputations have been destroyed & people have lost their lives due to unsubstantiated rumors masquerading as "the truth".

And that reality won't cause even one person to think before opening their mouths & spilling their guts about what they "know".

**juicefree20** · 02-27-2012, 02:00 PM

Abfan,

Your photo montage serves to point out the hypocrisy of many.

If we were to look through the history of sports, music & just about any branch of entertainment & hammer everyone whom has displayed any degree of human frailty, the same vices & destructive habits of the average Joe/Jane Blow, it would look like a damn police blotter.

Some our greatest actors, actressess, musicians, singers & athletes have been documented for practicing behavior which many absolutely lambast others for practicing. Which leads to the obvious question "Why are some people absolutely flamed for doing the same thing[[s) that others whom are adored get a pass for doing?"

All of the people in your montage are people whose troubles have been well-documented, just about all of them are people whose talents I admire & all are icons whom I like. And despite the fact that they have fallen victim to some of the same demons which plague mere "mortals", makes me not appreciate them any less, nor would I spend so much time focusing on their flaws.

How they choose to live their private lives & what vices they choose to take up should be of no concern of mine. It's THEIR private lives & as long as their vices & weakness doesn't impact my life or that of others, then I really should have little to say about what they choose to do behind closed doors, any more than I would lambast a relative on the internet should they be guilty of doing the same thing.

It appears as though the only time that most people feel that dragging people through the mud is wrong is when it's done to them, a family member or someone whom they like. Which is what makes much of this kind of thing hypocritical as hell.

**soulster** · 02-27-2012, 02:24 PM

Abfan,

I'm not aware of Teena Marie being addicted to anything.

**juicefree20** · 02-27-2012, 02:37 PM

Soulster,

Teena's daughter addressed this in an interview about 6 months ago...

http://iluluonline.com/teena-marie-s...says-daughter/

Teena, herself addressed this issue awhile back....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhkJUpjcIwc

With that said, her struggles never diminished her in the eyes of her fans, a woman whom which I'm certainly one of.

**abfan** · 02-27-2012, 02:47 PM

Juice thank's once again for articulating this better than me and for the article [[Which I did read everything you wrote lo)l............

Google it Soulster as you would say

Oh btw about my list, what is ur reply to them and there's plenty more crackhead's as you called Whitney, who had more Talent than just about the whole List IMO

**juicefree20** · 02-27-2012, 03:03 PM

Abfan,

Anytime.

I saw the info about Teena when she gave the AP the interview. I simply didn't think that it was something worth bringing to the forum any more that I would've participated in yet another conversation about the problems that Marvin Gaye, Jackie Wilson, James Brown, or a whole lot of people whom I've become friendly with, have faced & struggled with over the years.

Exactly what good does it do for me to rehash problems that others have had to deal with, some 30 years after the fact? Most, if not all of them were able to work through all of that & have continued forward. With their past being just that, their past, why should I bring that kind of information to a forum which was designed to HONOR & salute our music & artists? And why would I bring that information here when I full well know that depending upon the popularity of the artist or the generation in which they performed, some artists will be lambasted in one thread, while others whom have fallen prey to similar demons will be praised by some of the very same people whom are demonizing CERTAIN artists for doing pretty much the exact same thing[[s) in other threads?

It seems to me that many have the habit of taking mere flesh & blood men & women, constructing gods out of them, then taking perverse pleasure out of tearing them down when they prove NOT to be the "gods" that we want them to be [[out of our own need to have heroes & hold onto our youth), but mere flesh & blood people whom are sometimes as screwed-up as anyone else, with the same fears, insecurities & weaknesses.

In other words, human.

**marv2** · 02-27-2012, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by juicefree20

Dwight

Excellent post & one for all of us to consider [[myself included) before sitting behind a monitor offering up criticism, while cloaked in anonymity.

Personally, I dont care who sleeps with who, I don't care what the sexual orientation of ANY celebrity is. So long as they respect my boundaries & that of others, then who they sleep with is no concern of mine.

What I truly dislike is the idea of people taking it upon themselves to decide to expose the personal lives of individuals who made a conscious choice to decide what part[[s) of their lives they wanted made public.

How much worse is it when people do it to dead people whom can neither substantiate nor deny any claims made against them?

Beyond that, what gives anyone the right to take it upon themselves to "out" any individual who chose not to ''out'' themselves?

Even worse than that is when people are willing to attribute anything to people solely based upon speculation, hearsay or assumption. Whether folks want to admit it or not, such behavior indeed smacks of having an agenda. If no agenda were present, why would anyone attempt to disclose "truths" about an individual whom hasn't revealed those "truths" themselves?

In my opinion, it's despicable to do anything of that sort, when the reality is that most times you can't believe most of what you see, much less anything that you hear. How many times have we seen an entertainer stand on a stage talking about their "Number One" record which was actually 38 with no bullet? How many times have we heard folks thanking people for making their song a "million seller", which was recorded for a label which could barely afford to press up 100,000 copies, if even half that many?

"Gold", you say? How about ''cellophane"?

I wish that I could count the number of times that I've read or heard something which when given enough time & being around the right circle[[s) proved to be anything but the truth, as objectivity seems to be far from far too many fans.

But human nature is such that if something lines up with the value system of many, they haven't the objectivity, nor the inclination to take the time to discover whether what they believe or have been told has the scent of truth attached to it. All that is necessary for them is that the information speaks to their heart & it's off to the races.

And a lot of reputations have been destroyed & people have lost their lives due to unsubstantiated rumors masquerading as "the truth".

And that reality won't cause even one person to think before opening their mouths & spilling their guts about what they "know".

WOW! Dang man you have hit it home from all sides! I have to go pick up my car, but had to at least acknowledge such a great post. The posting of the week! You go Juice!

Marv

**juicefree20** · 02-27-2012, 03:55 PM

Thank you Marv.

**timmyfunk** · 02-27-2012, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by splanky

timmyfunk said:

Unless those jazz maniacs lived somewhere like...Burma, they couldn't possibly avoid her music

You've totally missed my point, Tim. I never implied that the jazz folk didn't know who she was but for those that
regularly listen to wbgo or kcr as opposed to wbls, who regularly read downbeat and/or Jazztimes as opposed to Vibe,
who visits the websites AllAboutJazz or JazzCorner as opposed to SoulPatrol or whatever and who goes to The Blue Note
or Smoke instead of whatever spot the current R&B crowd favors, it is entirely possible to enjoy life without being
bombarded by the music of Whitney Houston. I know who TPain and Drake are, too but luckily the only place I have to
hear their music constantly is at work. Nobody's trying to sell you on anything...

I don't think I implied that either. I made my point about as crystal as one can.

**timmyfunk** · 02-27-2012, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by abfan

A PoP Singer Hmmm...Have you followed her career after her first 2 albums..She was far from Just a pop singer..What do you call Tina Turner then..Most seem to speaking out of dislike for her character not her Music

Just a quick list below..What would you consider these artist..And are they any less talented .Or should we label them addict's or crackhead's and that's that.

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Views: 507
Size: 8.1 KB

I see a number of Soul, Funk, and Jazz artists. What is your point?
I am really getting the impression that this thread is growing to be very emotional. The type of emotionalism previously associated with Michael Jackson. Can we please tone it down a little? None of this emotionalism is going to bring this woman back.

And yes, Whitney Houston was a pop singer. That's how she was promoted, and she seemed to have no problem with it. Her albums [[particularly her second album) were by the numbers 80's pop. So why should we be bent out of shape when someone refers to her as such?

**abfan** · 02-27-2012, 10:46 PM

I am really getting the impression that this thread is growing to be very emotional

Why is it,when someone points out flaw's in your Icons & statements it's "Oh i'ts getting emotional".... come on..Have you ever listened to The Body Guard & The Preacher's wife soundtrack... not a pop song on there.And she deliberately worked w/ babyface and LA Ried to produce a more Urban sound after her 2nd CD..But as for my list..I'm waiting on what would u categorize them as?????

**P-Shark: The Revenge** · 02-27-2012, 11:08 PM

^"I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU" not pop? Anytime a song gets on the Pop Chart then its a pop song. Pop is short for popular.
So not only is IWALY a pop tune its a major pop tune, and annoying to. sorry but my personal opinion

**marv2** · 02-27-2012, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by P-Shark: The Revenge

^"I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU" not pop? Anytime a song gets on the Pop Chart then its a pop song. Pop is short for popular.
So not only is IWALY a pop tune its a major pop tune, and annoying to. sorry but my personal opinion

It did not just get on the Pop Charts......it DOMINATED the Pop Charts reaching number one and remaining there for something like 14 weeks which was the all time record for weeks at number one at that time. It may be in all of history of the charts.

**marv2** · 02-27-2012, 11:52 PM

Incidently, "I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU" spent 11 weeks at number one on the R&B Charts also breaking the record for longest at number for that chart. It was one of those rare universal hits,but it was a monster of a hit!

**timmyfunk** · 02-28-2012, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by abfan

Why is it,when someone points out flaw's in your Icons & statements it's "Oh i'ts getting emotional".... come on..Have you ever listened to The Body Guard & The Preacher's wife soundtrack... not a pop song on there.And she deliberately worked w/ babyface and LA Ried to produce a more Urban sound after her 2nd CD..But as for my list..I'm waiting on what would u categorize them as?????

OK, where is the flaw? I only stated what is quite obvious. This woman set out to be a pop singer, and that's what she became. Her work with L.A. Reid and Babyface came about due to mounting criticism about her music slowly becoming more pop. It was a deliberate move to help regain her black base. Documented fact. And yeah, it thread is getting overly emotional for absolutely no reason whatsoever. What is so bad about being a pop singer if that was here overall objective? Streisand, the Beatles, and Elton John, are all pop stars. She is definitely in great company, wouldn't you say?

**timmyfunk** · 02-28-2012, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

It did not just get on the Pop Charts......it DOMINATED the Pop Charts reaching number one and remaining there for something like 14 weeks which was the all time record for weeks at number one at that time. It may be in all of history of the charts.

Exactly, as did many of her other hits. This woman scored seven consecutive number one hits. No one in pop music, not the Beatles, not Elvis, not Michael Jackson or anyone else has achieved that level of pop success. That would make her, above all else, a pop singer.

**nomis** · 02-28-2012, 04:39 PM

the word "pop" has a negative vibe to many people..I see her more than a pop singer - that gospel training tinged most of her recordings with a heavy RnB vibe..to call her a pop singer is a very loose based definiton of her talents..from the outright funk of "thinking about you" that almost turns into a duet with Kashif..to her cover of the Isleys "for the love of You" slapped bang in the middle of the 2nd LP..surrounded by what I would call pop songs..she was taking chances with her material... I dont think Janet or Madonna had the pipes to match her..IWALY is a pop song..she stripped it off its original counrty vibe,but at the sametime she gets a pure out gospel track on the soundtrack for good measure..and by "my love is your love" album shes matching Hip Hop/Rnb falvas that Evans and Hill were doing..I mean theres nothing on that set that her pop rivals at the time,say Britney and Madonna would touch..but the whole defintion of pop has changed by the global world we live in and she brought down many racial barriers and for that I salute her..her training brought a little bit of Gospel to an audience that had really never heard it before in any capacity on pop radio..and it worked "shoop Shoop: and "step By step" are pushing the boundaries of the pop market with New Baptist fire...

**timmyfunk** · 02-28-2012, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by nomis

the word "pop" has a negative vibe to many people..I see her more than a pop singer - that gospel training tinged most of her recordings with a heavy RnB vibe..to call her a pop singer is a very loose based definiton of her talents..from the outright funk of "thinking about you" that almost turns into a duet with Kashif..to her cover of the Isleys "for the love of You" slapped bang in the middle of the 2nd LP..surrounded by what I would call pop songs..she was taking chances with her material... I dont think Janet or Madonna had the pipes to match her..IWALY is a pop song..she stripped it off its original counrty vibe,but at the sametime she gets a pure out gospel track on the soundtrack for good measure..and by "my love is your love" album shes matching Hip Hop/Rnb falvas that Evans and Hill were doing..I mean theres nothing on that set that her pop rivals at the time,say Britney and Madonna would touch..but the whole defintion of pop has changed by the global world we live in and she brought down many racial barriers and for that I salute her..her training brought a little bit of Gospel to an audience that had really never heard it before in any capacity on pop radio..and it worked "shoop Shoop: and "step By step" are pushing the boundaries of the pop market with New Baptist fire...

I'm sorry, but to my ears this woman never came close to anything that could be called funky. Her first album had some borderline R&B flavor [["You Give Good Love"). But aside from that, this woman was on the fast track to pop stardom. Isley remake notwithstanding. And while Janet or Madonna didn't have comparable pipes, Whitney herself [[as far as I'm concerned) couldn't wallow in the Funk sauce as Teena Marie could. I'd take Teena Marie over Whitney Houston any day of the week.

We have to put this in a certain perspective: Arista Records put approximately a quarter of a million dollars into the production of the first Whitney Houston album. When a label invests that much money into a then unproven performer, they are looking to reap maximum benefits. They are not trying to attain soul star status. They are trying to go for the gold. As for the racial barriers thing, I don't know if I can co-sign on that. Diana Ross and Donna Summer certainly made it easier for Whitney and a lot of other female performers that came after them in terms of the racial barrier thing.

**soulster** · 02-28-2012, 07:55 PM

"Thinking About You" was the weakest song on the first album. It's not even close to being funky.

**nomis** · 02-28-2012, 09:33 PM

"Thinking About you " IS 80s funk...the production is as smooth anything Prince was doing at the time...Clive put his money on that horse..2nd release off the LP..[[may have only been "12)..."thinking about you" is waaay better than the sachrine "All At Once" or "Greatest Love of ALL "...her vocal has got a bite,its sharp and she just sounds like magic with Kashif..its much more of a logistical work out for her range than say,"How Will I Know"..and the other thing about its not edited to a "7 time its like nearly going on 7 mins long..I like that the groove just goes on your getting pure joy from Whitney..shes digging this track..its funk- no not a challenging piece of instrumentation.. just a clear synth riff that grows into a double refrain from both singers..the back and call chant between Houston and Kashif reminds me of Johnny Bristol filling in those little places on "Someday Well Be Together"..though as I stated before half way thru it basically becomes a duet..judging from the outter riff harmony she did with Luther for The Soul Train Awards..well what can I say ? shes probably the most instinctive vocalist in history..I dont think Kashif needed to do much production for this track..it just flowed out of her naturally..its never dated for me I played it weeks before she passed at one of my gigs..next to "Saving All My Love For You" best damn track on the debut LP....

**marv2** · 02-28-2012, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by nomis

"Thinking About you " IS 80s funk...the production is as smooth anything Prince was doing at the time...Clive put his money on that horse..2nd release off the LP..[[may have only been "12)..."thinking about you" is waaay better than the sachrine "All At Once" or "Greatest Love of ALL "...her vocal has got a bite,its sharp and she just sounds like magic with Kashif..its much more of a logistical work out for her range than say,"How Will I Know"..and the other thing about its not edited to a "7 time its like nearly going on 7 mins long..I like that the groove just goes on your getting pure joy from Whitney..shes digging this track..its funk- no not a challenging piece of instrumentation.. just a clear synth riff that grows into a double refrain from both singers..the back and call chant between Houston and Kashif reminds me of Johnny Bristol filling in those little places on "Someday Well Be Together"..though as I stated before half way thru it basically becomes a duet..judging from the outter riff harmony she did with Luther for The Soul Train Awards..well what can I say ? shes probably the most instinctive vocalist in history..I dont think Kashif needed to do much production for this track..it just flowed out of her naturally..its never dated for me I played it weeks before she passed at one of my gigs..next to "Saving All My Love For You" best damn track on the debut LP....

I thought Whitney's acapella 12" single version of "Love Will Save the Day" was pretty funky! She had the goods to sing any style of music convincingly in my opinion. This little debate is really over what style of music you personally prefer, not that the deliever, in this case Whitney Houston was not good.....she was superb! I grew up not really caring for music styles such as Country & Western, Bluegrass, hardcore Blues or Polka for that matter, but I know there were excellent artists producing music from all of those genres. Some prefer a funkier groove to a more Pop flavor. I liked a lot of both pop, soul, funk, rock and all the variations on those genre's.

I use to describe Pop music as a form of music with very simplistic lyrics and a hook that everyone would remember. Just think, Lionel Richie solo and that was my personal definition of what Pop music could become......at it's worst! LOL! Sorry Lionel.

**timmyfunk** · 02-28-2012, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by nomis

"Thinking About you " IS 80s funk...the production is as smooth anything Prince was doing at the time...Clive put his money on that horse..2nd release off the LP..[[may have only been "12)..."thinking about you" is waaay better than the sachrine "All At Once" or "Greatest Love of ALL "...her vocal has got a bite,its sharp and she just sounds like magic with Kashif..its much more of a logistical work out for her range than say,"How Will I Know"..and the other thing about its not edited to a "7 time its like nearly going on 7 mins long..I like that the groove just goes on your getting pure joy from Whitney..shes digging this track..its funk- no not a challenging piece of instrumentation.. just a clear synth riff that grows into a double refrain from both singers..the back and call chant between Houston and Kashif reminds me of Johnny Bristol filling in those little places on "Someday Well Be Together"..though as I stated before half way thru it basically becomes a duet..judging from the outter riff harmony she did with Luther for The Soul Train Awards..well what can I say ? shes probably the most instinctive vocalist in history..I dont think Kashif needed to do much production for this track..it just flowed out of her naturally..its never dated for me I played it weeks before she passed at one of my gigs..next to "Saving All My Love For You" best damn track on the debut LP....

Thinking About You is 80's funk? No, Atomic Dog is 80's Funk. Erotic City is 80's Funk. Candy by Cameo is 80's Funk. More Bounce To The Ounce is 80's Funk. Thinking About You non-threatening 80's R&B. Once again, agree to disagree.

**timmyfunk** · 02-28-2012, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by nomis

"Thinking About you " IS 80s funk...the production is as smooth anything Prince was doing at the time...Clive put his money on that horse..2nd release off the LP..[[may have only been "12)..."thinking about you" is waaay better than the sachrine "All At Once" or "Greatest Love of ALL "...her vocal has got a bite,its sharp and she just sounds like magic with Kashif..its much more of a logistical work out for her range than say,"How Will I Know"..and the other thing about its not edited to a "7 time its like nearly going on 7 mins long..I like that the groove just goes on your getting pure joy from Whitney..shes digging this track..its funk- no not a challenging piece of instrumentation.. just a clear synth riff that grows into a double refrain from both singers..the back and call chant between Houston and Kashif reminds me of Johnny Bristol filling in those little places on "Someday Well Be Together"..though as I stated before half way thru it basically becomes a duet..judging from the outter riff harmony she did with Luther for The Soul Train Awards..well what can I say ? shes probably the most instinctive vocalist in history..I dont think Kashif needed to do much production for this track..it just flowed out of her naturally..its never dated for me I played it weeks before she passed at one of my gigs..next to "Saving All My Love For You" best damn track on the debut LP....

Correction. The track is simply too mechanical to be anything close to Funky. Displays all of the annoying gimmicks that aggravated me so much about 80's era Black pop. I rest my case.

**nomis** · 02-28-2012, 10:46 PM

that aggravated you but enchanted 14 million listeners in the US market alone..mechanical ?..Pointer sisters "automatic"or even "Erotic City" is way more mechanical..we have to agree to disagree..and my original point stands for Lionel as well..you just cant term him just Pop.."Sail On" was a country radio smash..people like Houston and Ritchie were winners because they crossed musical barriers and tore up radio programming rules..and Whitney didnt bring down racial barriers for females in the industry ? how many MTV videos of Ross and Summer did MTV play ? not damn many

**juicefree20** · 02-28-2012, 11:06 PM

Timmy,

Ironically, compared to the rest of the dance tracks on that LP, by comparison, "Thinking About You" is infinitely more funky & the only dance track that I ever liked or played from that LP.

I understand what you're saying when comparing it to "THE FUNK". But when placed within the context of the dance tracks of the LP, I understand what Nomis is saying.

I'd also have to say that it's not as electronic as other popular tracks of the period such as "Beat Box by Art Of Noise or "You're In My System" [[still one of my favorites & always will be).

Those were the 80s & for better or worse, music has never been quite the same since!

**P-Shark: The Revenge** · 02-28-2012, 11:51 PM

I'll cosign what Tim said. That song is as much Funk as a rock being a vegetable.
But Whitney & Bobby did sing a little P-Funk on "BEING BOBBY BROWN". Just can't
remember what song it was. Anybody?

**soulster** · 02-29-2012, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by nomis

"Thinking About you " IS 80s funk...the production is as smooth anything Prince was doing at the time...Clive put his money on that horse..2nd release off the LP..[[may have only been "12)..."thinking about you" is waaay better than the sachrine "All At Once" or "Greatest Love of ALL "...her vocal has got a bite,its sharp and she just sounds like magic with Kashif..its much more of a logistical work out for her range than say,"How Will I Know"..and the other thing about its not edited to a "7 time its like nearly going on 7 mins long..I like that the groove just goes on your getting pure joy from Whitney..shes digging this track..its funk- no not a challenging piece of instrumentation.. just a clear synth riff that grows into a double refrain from both singers..the back and call chant between Houston and Kashif reminds me of Johnny Bristol filling in those little places on "Someday Well Be Together"..though as I stated before half way thru it basically becomes a duet..judging from the outter riff harmony she did with Luther for The Soul Train Awards..well what can I say ? shes probably the most instinctive vocalist in history..I dont think Kashif needed to do much production for this track..it just flowed out of her naturally..its never dated for me I played it weeks before she passed at one of my gigs..next to "Saving All My Love For You" best damn track on the debut LP....

We have a difference of opinion, and I don't particularly like Kashif's production of that track. let's leave it at that because neither one of our minds will be changed. In other words, I don't have enough passion for the song to even argue about it.

I will say that the sonic qualities of the song on the remaster is very good. Lots of depth and space. That's the audiophile in me. Sorry!

**soulster** · 02-29-2012, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by timmyfunk

Thinking About You is 80's funk? No, Atomic Dog is 80's Funk. Erotic City is 80's Funk. Candy by Cameo is 80's Funk. More Bounce To The Ounce is 80's Funk. Thinking About You non-threatening 80's R&B. Once again, agree to disagree.

Thank you for making my argument for me.