What the hell was wrong with Warner Brothers not keeping Earth, Wind & Fire?

[soulster]

Just a little rant here:

I mean, they sold their contract to Columbia in 1972, then dropped them in 1994. Both times the band went on to have better success. It's no secret that WB never really understood R&B beyond how much money they could make off of it, but didn't anyone at that label ever have any real foresight? I think it's shocking enough that Prince, George Benson, and Chaka Khan were able to get as far as they did. Seems to me all the label ever really knew about was rock and folk.

Clive Davis of Columbia, and later, Arista, didn't understand R&B either, but I think he knew well enough to leave it alone and give the artists time to grow.

[timmyfunk]

Let's face it: those WB albums are too left field for the WB brass. Once Maurice ditched those jazz oriented cats and got younger and more energetic players, that's when things really started to cook. I can see a record company throwing their weight behind that CBS line up.

[soulster]

Let's face it: those WB albums are too left field for the WB brass. Once Maurice ditched those jazz oriented cats and got younger and more energetic players, that's when things really started to cook. I can see a record company throwing their weight behind that CBS line up.

Well, Maurice didn't ditch them, they all quit. I guess they saw no future when they were with WB, or even after Clive Davis signed them. It worked for Ronnie Laws because did go on to have a solo career, but the rest of them? Sheesh. But, the beauty is that the guys who made up the classic hit-making lineup were still rooted in jazz, but could funk like the rest of them. Al McKay, who became a co-producer and left in 1981, was seated in rock. All of those musicians gave EWF it's versatility. That band could play anything! What I find interesting is that, except for a few songs written outside of the band, Maurice White was at least a co-writer on almost every single thing they recorded.

Warner Brothers may have had The Tower of Power at the time, but Columbia was a better home. CBS already knew how to market Chicago and Santana. Earth, Wind & Fire fit right in. White had Skip Scarborough and Joe Wissert to learn from in the early days, but i'm sure he picked up a lot from Chicago, as they both worked out of the same studio in 1974 and 1975. I listened to the progression of their sound starting from the first album, and you could hear the move toward a more commercial sound by the time they got to "Open Our Eyes". The songs got more radio-friendly. Then you get to "That's The Way Of the World" and wonder what bolt of lightning struck them? After all, the album stylistically wasn't too far away from the last one, but they learned how to funk. They gained focus.

Anyway, discuss!

[stephanie]

Earth Wind and Fire had meaning when they first started and yes after Open Our Eyes I could see where they were headed and some of that friendly radio stuff was great especially Getaway. I think they went downhill after that System of Survival song though. Its a shame you cant stay to your roots like EWF and Kool and the Gang and have HUGE hits.

[soulster]

Steph, did you listen to "Millennium"? It's excellent.

[splanky]

I know mine is not going to be a popular opinion but I've always wished Maurice had stayed closer to his earliest visions
for Earth Wind and Fire. I know he and the group began to crave commercial sucess but I loved the jazz and "world"
influences. I know Al Mckay got them hits but I liked his predecessors, especially Roland Bautista. And don't get me started on the departure of Jessica [[..sigh...) Cleaves...As much as I was awed like many, by the vocal prowess of
Phillip Bailey [[who by the way is NOT an original member as many sources like to say) I was kind of let down that she
got no solos on her last album with them, Head To The Sky. I also was fascinated by Maurice's extensive use of the
kalimba, both the Hugh Tracey models and more traditional African instruments , on their recordings. It was Phillip
who was rooted in rock and pop, he who intiated their covers of Bread and Pete Seeger on the Last Days and Time
album. I,too, remember back in the 80's when they disbanded for a while and all of the nasty things Phillip was saying
to the press but EWF was Maurice's baby. It hurt me when he got sick and had to stop performing. Regardless of anything else he's still one of my favorite singer/composer/musicians of all time....

[candykamaine]

I know mine is not going to be a popular opinion but I've always wished Maurice had stayed closer to his earliest visions
for Earth Wind and Fire. I know he and the group began to crave commercial sucess but I loved the jazz and "world"
influences. I know Al Mckay got them hits but I liked his predecessors, especially Roland Bautista. And don't get me started on the departure of Jessica [[..sigh...) Cleaves...As much as I was awed like many, by the vocal prowess of
Phillip Bailey [[who by the way is NOT an original member as many sources like to say) I was kind of let down that she
got no solos on her last album with them, Head To The Sky. I also was fascinated by Maurice's extensive use of the
kalimba, both the Hugh Tracey models and more traditional African instruments , on their recordings. It was Phillip
who was rooted in rock and pop, he who intiated their covers of Bread and Pete Seeger on the Last Days and Time
album. I,too, remember back in the 80's when they disbanded for a while and all of the nasty things Phillip was saying
to the press but EWF was Maurice's baby. It hurt me when he got sick and had to stop performing. Regardless of anything else he's still one of my favorite singer/composer/musicians of all time....

Is'nt that the era where "I think about lovin you" comes from. Didn't even know that was earth wind and fire until a few months. Due to the female vocalist throwing me off.

[splanky]

Well, actually here is where the first set of lies told about EWF begin. Loving Jess as much as I do I too was misled
that she was not the orignal female lead in the group or the singer of that classic I Think About Lovin You. That honor
belongs to Sherry Scott who only stayed for two albums and then virtually disappeared from the business until Canadian
jazz singer Jeri Brown dug her up a few years ago. I guess Jessica's tone reminded Maurice of Sherry, she had just left The Friends of Distinction...

[soulster]

I know mine is not going to be a popular opinion but I've always wished Maurice had stayed closer to his earliest visions
for Earth Wind and Fire. I know he and the group began to crave commercial sucess but I loved the jazz and "world"
influences. I know Al Mckay got them hits but I liked his predecessors, especially Roland Bautista. And don't get me started on the departure of Jessica [[..sigh...) Cleaves...As much as I was awed like many, by the vocal prowess of
Phillip Bailey [[who by the way is NOT an original member as many sources like to say) I was kind of let down that she
got no solos on her last album with them, Head To The Sky. I also was fascinated by Maurice's extensive use of the
kalimba, both the Hugh Tracey models and more traditional African instruments , on their recordings. It was Phillip
who was rooted in rock and pop, he who intiated their covers of Bread and Pete Seeger on the Last Days and Time
album. I,too, remember back in the 80's when they disbanded for a while and all of the nasty things Phillip was saying
to the press but EWF was Maurice's baby. It hurt me when he got sick and had to stop performing. Regardless of anything else he's still one of my favorite singer/composer/musicians of all time....

Well, their move toward commercialism wasn't just because of Al McKay or Philip Bailey. Maurice wanted commercial success too, and that was greatly influenced by the addition of producer Charles Stepney. It was Stepney who gave the band's sound focus, and the real commercial direction. Once he was on board, the hits started coming. McKay added the rock edge, Bailey added the ballads and encouraged them to expand their sound. EWF going commercial was a group effort, and it all fit into Maurice White's plan to take his vision to a new level. I'm sure White was also inspired by that other Columbia Records band with horns: Chicago, who were getting major hits.

[splanky]

Yes, I know Maurice wanted to sell too and I remember well the great Charles Stephey who had worked with other Chicago groups too [[ very well with The Dells) but after his passing the group began to implode over time. Soon albums
with come out I had to cherry pick over which had never happened before...

[soulster]

Yes, I know Maurice wanted to sell too and I remember well the great Charles Stephey who had worked with other Chicago groups too [[ very well with The Dells) but after his passing the group began to implode over time. Soon albums
with come out I had to cherry pick over which had never happened before...

They did quite well until "I Am". It was one of their most commercially successful album, yes, and the quality of the music was good, but something had changed. Their need to get pop hits overwhelmed them. Maurice White has said that he was pressured by the Columbia suits to come up with pop hits after the success of "Fantasy". The result was "September", one of their worst songs, IMO.

"Faces" was a mixed bag. They could have tightened it down to a nice single album. My version would be:

Side 1:
Let Me Talk
Turn It Into Something Good
Pride
You Went Away

Side 2:
Sparkle
Back On the Road
Take It To The Sky
Faces

Thing is, "Back On The Road" is a weak cut, but there's nothing else that will fit in that spot.

"Powerlight" should have used the single version of "Fall In Love With Me".

[timmyfunk]

Well, Maurice didn't ditch them, they all quit. I guess they saw no future when they were with WB, or even after Clive Davis signed them. It worked for Ronnie Laws because did go on to have a solo career, but the rest of them? Sheesh. But, the beauty is that the guys who made up the classic hit-making lineup were still rooted in jazz, but could funk like the rest of them. Al McKay, who became a co-producer and left in 1981, was seated in rock. All of those musicians gave EWF it's versatility. That band could play anything! What I find interesting is that, except for a few songs written outside of the band, Maurice White was at least a co-writer on almost every single thing they recorded.

Warner Brothers may have had The Tower of Power at the time, but Columbia was a better home. CBS already knew how to market Chicago and Santana. Earth, Wind & Fire fit right in. White had Skip Scarborough and Joe Wissert to learn from in the early days, but i'm sure he picked up a lot from Chicago, as they both worked out of the same studio in 1974 and 1975. I listened to the progression of their sound starting from the first album, and you could hear the move toward a more commercial sound by the time they got to "Open Our Eyes". The songs got more radio-friendly. Then you get to "That's The Way Of the World" and wonder what bolt of lightning struck them? After all, the album stylistically wasn't too far away from the last one, but they learned how to funk. They gained focus.

Anyway, discuss!

That ain't the story I heard. Their departure was MW's call. And looking back, it may have been a sound decision. Those in the first line up just didn't have what was needed to take EWF to the next level.

As far as I'm concerned, 1979 was when that band went totally downhill. Boogie Wonderland definitely put the nail in the coffin. Every album after that [[with the possible exception of Faces, which I've recently re-ordered on vinyl) is practically worthless and virtually unlistenable.

[soulster]

Even though I liked "Boogie Wonderland" back in the late spring of 1979, and bought the 45 before the album was released, I didn't know what to make of it. I had no problem with disco, but it just didn't seem right for EWF. I was worried that they had also jumped on the disco bandwagon. For me, the only saving grace about "Boogie Wonderland" is that it is an anti-disco song. It didn't help that the album "I Am" showed up with another disco-flavored song on it, "Can't Let Go", and then a damn David Foster ballad as the second single! Then, the Emotion's "Come Into My World" album hits the streets and it has more disco on it! The Isley Brothers had disco on their then-current album "Winner Takes All", Rufus, Heatwave, George Benson...I thought the world was coming to an end! I played a lot of Rick James that year, and at least Chic's "Good Times", another anti-disco disco song, didn't sound like disco from 1979 standards. But, I digress...

In 1978, I thought "Got To Get You Into My Life" was going to be a good lead-off track for their new album, despite it being from a lousy film, just as "Shining Star" was three years earlier. They put it on a best of comp, O.K., but then they issued "September". Ugh! From the first time I played it, I knew it was an obvious grab at the White pop audience. It was bland, the lyrics were banal, and it was heavy on melody, perfect for the pop audiences, and it worked! Even 1975's "Sing A Song" was better than this tripe!

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Before the WB years they were known as The Salty Peppers with a couple of singles on Capital
Then they the became Earth Wind & Fire and recorded the soundtrack for SWEET SWEETBACK'S BADASSSS SONG for stax.

I won the Salty Peppers a few yrs ago on ebay. So here it is in glorious popping crackling sound. Dig it
http://www.mediafire.com/?e0ww6n8jf4r2m

[splanky]

@soulster
Maurice White himself has said on more than one occassion that he considers Boogie Wonderland the only disco song his
group ever recorded. And tell me how you interpret as an anti-disco song, if you please. As far as I remember George Clinton and his spin off or mutiny acts recorded the most blatantly anti disco tracks. Even the Brides Disco To Go whose
title may have fooled the un hip kids was a threat to K.O. disco....and let's not forget Johnnie Taylor Disco Lady was actually a slice of straight up Funk backed on record by members of GC's Parliament...

[soulster]

Well, I know about what White said. I still add "Can't Let Go" becuse it sounds too discoey to me. He has also said that "Boogie Wonderland" is an anti-disco song. Listen to the first verse. It tells you right there what it it.

During the disco era, there were a LOT of anti-disco records dressed up as either disco records, or that passed for disco. I am well aware of "Disco Lady" by Johnny Taylor being a funk record with disco flavorings. In fact, Taylor was incensed that people called his record "disco".

Chic's "Le Freak" was a slam against disco and Studio 54, which they were once denied entry. "Good Times" was another of their anti-disco records, but also was a statement about the state of society at the time. It was not a happy song. Nile Rodgers said Chic's songs always had to have two meanings.

Anther anti-disco disco song was Rod Stewart's "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy". It was a sarcastic look at the whole phony disco scene.

Rick James said his hit "You And I" started out as disco but morphed into a funk jam once the main part of the song was over. he said he did that to draw in the listener to what he was really about, musically. The disco part made the record company happy.

[soulster]

I won the Salty Peppers a few yrs ago on ebay. So here it is in glorious popping crackling sound. Dig it

There is a LOT of loud bad, bad ground loop hum on two of those samples you posted. I know they are very low-bit mp3s, but here is a quick and dirty cleanup I just did of one of your samples: http://ppl.ug/AisSAi_NHlg/

[timmyfunk]

Well, I know about what White said. I still add "Can't Let Go" becuse it sounds too discoey to me. He has also said that it's an anti-disco song. Listen to the first verse. It tells you right there what it it.

During the disco era, there were a LOT of anti-disco records dressed up as either disco records, or that passed for disco. I am well aware of "Disco Lady" by Johnny Taylor being a funk record with disco flavorings. In fact, Taylor was incensed that people called his record "disco".

Chic's "Le Freak" was a slam against disco and Studio 54, which they were once denied entry. "Good Times" was another of their anti-disco records, but also was a statement about the state of society at the time. It was not a happy song. Nile Rodgers said Chic's songs always had to have two meanings.

Anther anti-disco disco song was Rod Stewart's "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy". It was a sarcastic look at the whole phony disco scene.

Rick James said his hit "You And I" started out as disco but morphed into a funk jam once the main part of the song was over. he said he did that to draw in the listener to what he was really about, musically. The disco part made the record company happy.

I don't know if any of your examples are anti-disco. Especially Do Ya Think I'm Sexy. That is a disco record up and down. And while I know about the origins of Le Freak, I'm sure that Rodgers and Edwards knew that in the end the song was a disco as anything being released.

[soulster]

I don't know if any of your examples are anti-disco. Especially Do Ya Think I'm Sexy. That is a disco record up and down. And while I know about the origins of Le Freak, I'm sure that Rodgers and Edwards knew that in the end the song was a disco as anything being released.

All you have to do is check the lyrics and read interviews.

I never said the music itself wasn't disco, only that the lyrics were anti-disco.

BTW, a pet peeve of mine is that people keep getting the Rod Stewart song title wrong. The correct title, and it's on the record label, is "DA Ya Think I'm Sexy", not "DO...". Rod's very English.

[timmyfunk]

All you have to do is check the lyrics and read interviews.

I never said the music itself wasn't disco, only that the lyrics were anti-disco.

BTW, a pet peeve of mine is that people keep getting the Rod Stewart song title wrong. The correct title, and it's on the record label, is "DA Ya Think I'm Sexy", not "DO...". Rod's very English.

There ain't nothing anti-disco about those lyrics.
This dude simply jumped onto the disco bandwagon just like the Rolling Stones, Wings, and Kiss did when they saw how much money could be made. And when that train crashed, they jumped off as easy as they leaped on.

[soulster]

There ain't nothing anti-disco about those lyrics.
This dude simply jumped onto the disco bandwagon just like the Rolling Stones, Wings, and Kiss did when they saw how much money could be made. And when that train crashed, they jumped off as easy as they leaped on.

You aren't paying attention to the lyrics of any of those songs, and i really don't feel like breaking it down to you. I have read comments by the artists about the meaning of their songs.

[timmyfunk]

You aren't paying attention to the lyrics of any of those songs, and i really don't feel like breaking it down to you. I have read comments by the artists about the meaning of their songs.

Sorry dude. But you're reading a little too deep into something that just ain't there. The lyrics are pure disco cornball without a hint of protest. I've seen a number of interviews with RS where he basically tries to diss disco. But he sure took the money and ran when this song blew up.

[soulster]

Sorry dude. But you're reading a little too deep into something that just ain't there. The lyrics are pure disco cornball without a hint of protest. I've seen a number of interviews with RS where he basically tries to diss disco. But he sure took the money and ran when this song blew up.

I can assume you don't know the background on all these songs. Doesn't really matter. Read my new thread in the Motown forum.

[timmyfunk]

I know all too well about the background of this song. And it ain't protest in any way shape, size or form. And while we're at it, Le Freak was actually a protest song about the restrictive policies of Studio 54, not disco in general.

[timmyfunk]

I can assume you don't know the background on all these songs. Doesn't really matter. Read my new thread in the Motown forum.

Sorry dude, but I don't frequent the Motown forum. Too much gratuitous drama for my taste.

[soulster]

Sorry dude, but I don't frequent the Motown forum. Too much gratuitous drama for my taste.

It's about the protest of the proposed bills in congress, but you may already know about it.