How many copies did "Stoned Love" sell by the Supremes in 1971

[smark21]

I was actually more into New Wave than hardcore punk. Bands like the Smiths and the Cure.

Joy Division is my favorite New Wave band. They could get very grim and "feel bad" with their material.

[Jimi LaLumia]

that's hardly punk...punk is Johnny Thunders & The Heartbreakers!...Cherry Vanilla!..Wayne County & the Electric Chairs[[these days, Wayne is now Jayne County!)

[BobC]

Hi Jimi and Smarksy--I love Joy Division! But they were never considered New Wave mainly because they came after the Sex Pistols but before bands like Culture Club, Smiths etc came on the scene. It was a progression. Have you seen the proto-video of "Atmosphere" by Joy Division? I never saw it back when it was released, but look it up on Youtube. It still brings tears to my eyes. As an artist, I can't believe the foresight and beautiful imagery in that vid. It also showed that a vid didn't have to spend millions.

And you listen to me, Jimi, love ya,mean it, but don't tell me what punk was. I lived it. I have read Cherry's memoirs, thanks to you, and although I loved her tales, She was mainly a reaction to 60's rock, but she never introduced anything original. I love her, but she wasn't creating a new musical style.

[Jimi LaLumia]

actually, I lived it...as to Cherry and anything original?
she was the first brazenly sexual white woman to thrust her ahem in your face, and do songs at Trude Heller in 1974 like "Whore On Fire"[[c'mon in baby, i'll take you much higher, c'mon in baby, my P****'s on FIRE!"), "Foxy Bitch", etc...
she was a road map for Madonna who 'interning' at Max's Kansas City in the late 70's during Vanilla's tenure there;
CV was very humble in her auto bio, but before Vanilla, there was nothing like her in rock music,in terms of the level of agressive sexuality [[for a white female) that she brought to the table,and the then 'rock" Madonna took notes and gave the Vanilla routine a dance beat in the early 80's..
CV may not have created a musical style, but she pioneered a new pop music 'stance' for women..
I'll tell you what punk was because I performed at Max's alongside the original junkie , ex-NY Doll Johnny Thunders and the notorious Sid Vicious when he did his last stance at Max's just prior to the death of groupie girlfriend Nancy Spungeon;
you can tell me about New Wave [[and i can tell you about New wave) but PUNK? I'd need a list of credentials...still love ya,BobC..

[florence]

As with most Supremes' and even Motown singles the truth is that nobody can say with any conviction exactly how many copies any single sold.

I can't see though why anyone would question that the single achieved the million mark in the US.

It has always been accepted and I have never heard anyone refute the fact that Stoned Love was the Supremes' biggest selling single after Diana left.

Over the years any estimation for Up The Ladder To The Roof has always been in the 800/900k range and nobody has disputed that and Stoned Love would certainly appear to have been a bigger seller.

Casbox is a more reliable measure of a record's sales as it didn't include an airplay factor in the period The Supremes were hitting the chart.

Ladder peaked at #9 at the end of April 1970 in an 11 week run while Stoned Love was on the chart for 15 weeks peaking at #5 in early January before falling off quickly having been in the top 10 during December- the biggest selling period of the year.

The Official Charts Company in the UK have it on 330k and the song also made #1 in France.

Ity will certainly be well over the 1.5m globally and the figure of 2.4m is perfectly possible.

[Strange]

Bok--my feeling that that record was weak is just me stating my opinion, if that is okay with you. That's why I said it was "in my opinion." Second, I think the sales of that song confirm that I was not the only one who held that view.

Strange, "You Light" was an enormously huge record in the 70's in the US. I remember it very well--that and "Love Will Keep Us Together" were both massive singles. In fact, I would imagine it has sold more than 8 million at this point because everybody wanted it played at their weddings, engagement parties, anniversaries, etc. Don't get me wrong--I hated that song, but then I hate most "feel good" songs. I prefer feel bad songs. Which is why I went on to punk rock after disco started giving me a headache in the late 70's.

Well I'm with you on those sympathies BobC. I too liked a bit of disco but gave way to punk and more particularly New Wave after everyone from the Stones to Frankie Valli decided they would jump on the disco bandwagon. Too much! 74-77 was enough already and punk was simply an antidote imho.

Anyway, personal preferences aside, you seem to be ignoring what I said about the RIAA never granting any single the whole 55-plus years of the rock era with anything more than four-times platinum. That tells us all we need to know about records not selling what the artists/labels/management/media have led us to believe. Simple as that. You're getting sucked in by all that hype and nonsense man, and eight million for 'You Light Up My Life' is more than double what it really managed. At best it could be 3.6m or so, but that will be with plenty of discounting and extras even then like the good old freebies...

And yup, it sucks and so did most of Captain & Tennile's stuff [[Whitburn placed 'Love Will Keep Us Together' top of 1975 - probably not shipping two million net to do so - as Boone was top in 1977 in his Billboard chart rankings btw) but loads of folk obviously dug all that sugar coating!

[BobC]

You know Strange I had a friend who was over ten years older than I was, who used to be a DJ in the 70's [[he was still playing in a bar in the 90's when I met him) and one day we started talking about music. I told him I was really into black music, pre-disco, and he told me something I never forgot. He told me that dance music in the early mid-70's was beautiful music with great orchestration--bands like Love Unlimited, Barry White, Three Degrees, etc. It was only in the late 70's when dance music became faddy disco that everything went downhill. I never really thought of that, but he was right. I could never put a great song like "When Will I see You Again" in the disco bin. Nor anything by Barry White and his various incarnations.

Jimi--listen here young man! I read Cherry's memoirs, upon your recommendation! I know all about her now, you little scamp. And yes she did thrust her...face...and other body parts into the national consciousness!! I love people like her who rattle the pop cage! Still, though, When I think of punk I think of the Sex Pistols, Iggy Pop, NY Dolls, Siouxxie and the Banshees, people like that. Today there are so many genres of music--but back then you only had maybe five categories. I liked punk because it was rebellious--a great alternative to "You Light Up My Life" and songs like that that I couldn't relate to at all. I call them "if you leave me I'll drop dead" songs. Blech.

[Strange]

I am in Detroit. I could try to track down Kenny Thomas who wrote song and ask him, or it will have to wait until I return to New York on Dec. 2. Thanks.

That'll be good of you Marv2, the writer is the one who really knows as they get publishing reports and returns. It is one of the reasons I know that he won't be telling you three million for the US!

And no, Wikipedia have a habit of not being resoundingly accurate when it comes to estimated sales and the like, almost always being written by fans who know little about the industry and tending to go for top-end claims. So if they too are saying 2.4m worldwide then I guess you shouldn't bother Kenny Thomas after all about the 3m!

[Strange]

I call them "if you leave me I'll drop dead" songs. Blech.

Ha! More like if you don't stop that catawauling I'll drop dead BobC [[or someone will!). But then I guess our Debby was the daughter of the rather rightgeous Pat Boone so all that milk and honey was kinda natural for the poor girl. Anyway, it kept them in spangly suits a while I guess...

[marv2]

That'll be good of you Marv2, the writer is the one who really knows as they get publishing reports and returns. It is one of the reasons I know that he won't be telling you three million for the US!

And no, Wikipedia have a habit of not being resoundingly accurate when it comes to estimated sales and the like, almost always being written by fans who know little about the industry and tending to go for top-end claims. So if they too are saying 2.4m worldwide then I guess you shouldn't bother Kenny Thomas after all about the 3m!

i hope you know I was kidding. I am not going through all that trouble and you're not even paying me! LOL! Psyche!
LOL!!!

[Strange]

As with most Supremes' and even Motown singles the truth is that nobody can say with any conviction exactly how many copies any single sold.

I can't see though why anyone would question that the single achieved the million mark in the US.

It has always been accepted and I have never heard anyone refute the fact that Stoned Love was the Supremes' biggest selling single after Diana left.

Over the years any estimation for Up The Ladder To The Roof has always been in the 800/900k range and nobody has disputed that and Stoned Love would certainly appear to have been a bigger seller.

Casbox is a more reliable measure of a record's sales as it didn't include an airplay factor in the period The Supremes were hitting the chart.

Ladder peaked at #9 at the end of April 1970 in an 11 week run while Stoned Love was on the chart for 15 weeks peaking at #5 in early January before falling off quickly having been in the top 10 during December- the biggest selling period of the year.

The Official Charts Company in the UK have it on 330k and the song also made #1 in France.

Ity will certainly be well over the 1.5m globally and the figure of 2.4m is perfectly possible.

Well it isn't about anyone being able to say with any conviction what a single may or may not have sold, it is about having a very good idea based on what records really sold at the time, the RIAA awards they received [[if applied for of course) and with an eye on the charts and what the competition were doing. There are many folk who can say within those parameters and I guess you're possibly one of them too as you've made a statement about Stoned Love's sales in the UK apparently based on what a body like the Official Charts Company has stated - and not many will know about that without researching more than a little.

Equally your Cash Box info is spot on, and there is enough latitude with Christmas period sales to possibly have meant as I said earlier that 'Stoned Love' could have been a genuine RIAA gold disc winner if Motown had've been applying for them at the time. But that is not in dispute, 3m worldwide is...

I've not been aware of the 'Up The Ladder' being accepted as within the 800/900k range, and maybe there is something I'm missing here? You're sort of maintaining 'Stoned Love' shouldn't be disputed as a million-seller Stateside because of that I guess, because just being the bigger chart hit in comparison with another from March/April time in 1970 isn't really enough to go on. If, for instance 800k was the UTL total, then we are saying SL needs to have sold 25% more at least to get to gold. Shift UTL down just 50k and we are looking at a third more copies needed...

The balance of probabilities is still that Stoned Love was just worthy of an RIAA gold disc on gross shipments, but the closer we look at things more doubt enters the equation, that is all I'm saying! And certainly 3m is hogwash. As for then extending a 'definite maybe' US one million sales into 2.4m worldwide is exactly what Motown and Mr. Gordy's publicity machine were good at having folk believe and accept. The 1.5m is possible, but I seriously doubt that too. Where did you get the No. 1 in France info may I ask?

[Strange]

Lol Marv2. You're one to watch then! I actually thought you were mad as a march hare and believed all that 3m, 2.4m and so on stuff about Stoned Love's sales. Franjoy56 asked the question and Jobeterob first came out with the 3m revelation from some fast-buck book of lists or something so I thought it was all serious.

Anyway, some might have learnt something from my theorising! A little? Oh well, nevermind...

[motony]

Motown always downplayed sales to the artists.I don't know about the writers & producers.

[jobeterob]

I actually misquoted the Hitsville Motown 1972 - 1992 booklet when I referred to 3 million copies of Stoned Love being sold.

What it says, written by Terry Barnes, is:

Only a month after Diana's departure, the re-invented Supremes came with a Top 10 hit, Up the Ladder to the Roof. The same year they released Stoned Love, which sold an astounding 2.3 million copies. But there would be no more #1's. Not that the Supremes sounded any different; youth culture had moved on.

Further on, it says: Smokey wrote Floy Joy with Mary's voice in mind, and recorded it as a duet with Jean Terrell. It was the Supremes last Top 20 single and the last to sell over 500,000 copies.

In the Ross section, Stewart Francke wrote: An aching ballad both insistent and permissive, Touch Me In The Morning, further evidenced the vulnerability in Ross's makeup; after the enormous success of the single [[21 weeks on the charts in 1973, longer than any Supremes song), Ross was far less an enigma to her audience. she was now no longer associated with the Supremes - she was an archetypical 70's role model.

And later: Diana's last great success in this period came in 1981 with Endless Love, a duet with Lionel Richie. Endless Love, written by Richie, topped the pop charts for 10 weeks and sold over 3 million copies.

Diana Ross transcends the notion of a singer merely rendering a song. Her voice infiltrates, even conjures, the seemingly small elements of living: hope after loss, letting a fantasy remain unrequited, learning forgiveness alongside self reliance, a remembered spring, a lost childhood. After all this time she remains one of the post rock era's most subtly stunning singers.

With respect to Michael Jackson, David Ritz wrote: Considering the theme morbid [[Ben), a few radio stations were initially reluctant to play the single. But public taste prevailed. Ben sold some 1.7 million copies and was nominated for an Academy Award.

And later: At the end of his Motown career, Jackson had recorded more major hits than most artists produce in forty year careers. More amazing still, Michael was only 17, with worlds of creativity and unprecedented popularity still ahead.

With respect to Dancing Machine, it says: He [[Michael) created a classic street dance and before it was over, the single sold two million copies.

David Ritz also writes that one Billboard account says the Miracles's single Love Machine, was the most successful Miracles single of all time.

With respect to Rick James, Scott Galloway wrote: His first single, You and I, was an out of the box smash and established Rick as a platinum selling superstar. In 1981, the stakes were raised when his 5th album, Street Songs, sold over 3 million copies domestically. [[Perhaps that means some of the other figures quoted were not domestic, but worldwide).

[florence]

Where did you get the No. 1 in France info may I ask?

http://tsort.info/music/33a5uh.htm

[Jimi LaLumia]

Gordy called his hits double #1's, because when they hit big, they found a huge white audience as well as a huge black audience, something that neither Debbie Boone or Captain & Tennille did;
so I have no problem believing that Stoned Love sold well over 2 million copies between the black and white record markets during a holiday period,and the only folks that do obviously have some other agenda at work,God knows what,,

[Strange]

http://tsort.info/music/33a5uh.htm

A neat site, thanks for sharing.

But don't rely on the details for France judging by that entry though as it seems somewhat misguided, especially if you look at the other entries [[I should say non-entries) from that country.

Perhaps the creators can double-check their source?

[Strange]

Gordy called his hits double #1's, because when they hit big, they found a huge white audience as well as a huge black audience, something that neither Debbie Boone or Captain & Tennille did;
so I have no problem believing that Stoned Love sold well over 2 million copies between the black and white record markets during a holiday period,and the only folks that do obviously have some other agenda at work,God knows what,,

Mmmm, when I see the word agenda I immediately know I'm in the wrong place for any sensible discussion.

Look Jimi, the tough questions are always there to be asked and if, as says the RIAA, four million shipments is the most any single has managed to be certified for in the entire rock era, how can you sensibly say a record that made No. 7 in the Hot 100 - at Christmastime or otherwise - is over two million?

I mean, it don't add up man! Gordy wasn't gonna downplay his acts, that ain't showbiz, but if you ever took time out to really study the industry and its hype across all genres, styles and eras, then you'd grasp that basic fact. Unless you're saying the RIAA were the ones with the problem...?

[tomato tom]

I always wondered why lots of 45s that showed big on the U.S. Charts ended up in the UK with drill holes in them. Meaning, unsold, returned.???.

[jobeterob]

Holes definitely meant deleted and unsold ~ but tallied up when they counted Sales!

One of the reasons that Stoned Love never got further up the charts is that in those days, one of the components making up chart position was airplay and Stoned Love got less airplay than it otherwise would have because of the title "STONED Love"; and we know that is still being discussed 40 years later.

But those of you that state there is a lot of overstatement, misstatement, playing games with shipments that get returned 2 months later and all that ~ all makes sense. And so it's hard to know the truth.

[BobC]

I hate all the phoniness around smoking weed. Especially today. Just about every person under under 60 has at least tried it, so I fail to see what the the hysteria was/is all about. Good GOD--it's not like you're banging heroin.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Cherry Vanilla wound up being The Velvelettes of punk: I guess Blondie was the Supremes of punk, and Patti Smith was the Martha & Vandellas of NY punk..
JohnnyThunders & The Heartbreakers were the Jr.Walker & the All Stars of punk, and Jayne County was the Shorty Long of punk..

[marv2]

Holes definitely meant deleted and unsold ~ but tallied up when they counted Sales!

One of the reasons that Stoned Love never got further up the charts is that in those days, one of the components making up chart position was airplay and Stoned Love got less airplay than it otherwise would have because of the title "STONED Love"; and we know that is still being discussed 40 years later.

But those of you that state there is a lot of overstatement, misstatement, playing games with shipments that get returned 2 months later and all that ~ all makes sense. And so it's hard to know the truth.

Stoned Love received plenty of airplay which is how it became one of the Supremes and
Motown's greatest hits.

[florence]

A neat site, thanks for sharing.

But don't rely on the details for France judging by that entry though as it seems somewhat misguided, especially if you look at the other entries [[I should say non-entries) from that country.

Perhaps the creators can double-check their source?

Can't speak for other countries but certainly the entries for the US and UK are accurate.

[florence]

While it is a useful tool what exactly does an RIAA certification tell you?

Take the 1m mark for example - in some cases after the certification is claimed returns will be made so the record has not even sold 1m but the award is not rescinded.

But once it reaches 1m there is no way of knowing how many more it sells, the next award level is 2m - it could just have crept past the 1m or sold 1.9m!

I personally tend to believe the figures JR Taraborrelli quoted in the 80s many also do but then just as many don't.

Then there is the weird situation when Motown claimed certifications in 1997 for a handful of singles I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, Baby Love, Stop! In The Name Of Love and Someday We'll Be Together.

Even though the records were released before the certification levels dropped they only had to reach the new level.

If for example Baby Love sold the the 2/3m which many claimed why when they had gone to the trouble of claiming a "posthumpus" award would they only claim Gold and not Platinum?

Ah well, the Supremes' sales conundrum will continue and never be resolved.

[jobeterob]

All of that is correct Florence with the exception that the RIAA didn't/doesn't even measure sales ~ its measures shipments ~ half of which could be returned.

And there were examples around of big records companies with name artists shipping millions and seeing millions returned ~ but they didn't want their name artists failing. I'm pretty sure there were allegations of this being done by Sony and Arista with Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston on some of their less successful releases.

[Strange]

Holes definitely meant deleted and unsold ~ but tallied up when they counted Sales!

One of the reasons that Stoned Love never got further up the charts is that in those days, one of the components making up chart position was airplay and Stoned Love got less airplay than it otherwise would have because of the title "STONED Love"; and we know that is still being discussed 40 years later.

But those of you that state there is a lot of overstatement, misstatement, playing games with shipments that get returned 2 months later and all that ~ all makes sense. And so it's hard to know the truth.

Firstly Paulo - you are very astute sir. There was a very nice trade in transhipping overseas of unsold/deleted stock, and most often the UK [[and Canada) was the destination.

Jobeterob - yes indeed, deleted and unsold in the US and then recycled as cut-outs or more likely simply scrapped. Vast numbers were scrapped, and the transhipping or indirect export market was able to soak up so much slack, the cheaper price of buying up the record with 'holes' being augmented further by a gain on taxation differences. Very complicated, but certainly not true US sales as you seem to be suggesting [[although forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you).

What might have been counted if Motown had've been interested were the RIAA award. So if Stoned Love had've shipped one million, then the RIAA auditors were invited in to see the sales dockets, the certification would have been granted and we all think one million copies were bought/sold in the States. This is not so, as Florence also mentioned above. What we know is that many awards were based on over-shipping in the sixties and seventies; supported further by freebies; devalued even more by the many returns and finally confused the hell out of artists and acts when royalties were so low. This applied from the Beatles to Pink Floyd as well as all the Motown gang of acts. It was made worse if they were stitched up with the contracts and they didn't have the mouthpieces they neeeded - whereas the white groups were more able to work around all that after a bit of time, and largely because they were represented by English lawyers too I suspect...

Anyway, all that aside, you seem to instinctively know that there was plenty of mis-statements and claims, so all I'm pointing out is the real truth is most of the singles were similar sellers according to the time of release and length/size of chart career. The airplay component is a distraction as that is only really important and relevant beneath the Top 40, higher up the sales drove the position. All the Top 40 stations wanted to play a Top 40 hit as it was in their interests to and because it was expected - their reason to be if you like. If a few got picky about 'Stoned' being in the title then plenty of R&B genre stations took up the slack, I'm sure.

Stoned Love was probably due an RIAA award at the time, but would - and probably has - fail in a count these days because of all the returns etc, I've explained about. I just don't care much but I did baulk at the 3m idea!

[skooldem1]

Hey Strange- you are confusing them with the facts. LMAO. The only thing they are interested in is how this record out sold some records that were released by Diana Ross and the Supremes. Thats really what this thread is about. This record had to have sold 4 million copies, it has to be the biggest selling Supreme song. It has to, it just has to.....

[motownlover1964]

Although I rarely post it is fascinating that this conversation about record sales never really goes away. I also suspect we'll never know, and with the various explanations in this thread that I find interesting, only shows that the definitive number is relative at best. I wonder if all the Motown announcements back in the day about "million sellers" distorted things, not only for the artists, but for the general public at large.

[Strange]

Can't speak for other countries but certainly the entries for the US and UK are accurate.

Well yes, the US and UK details appear fine enough, but I can confirm that 'Stoned Love' never made the French charts, and to be honest I don't think the group [[with or without Diana) ever made the Top Ten there...I would be very surprised if they ever sold more than 20% of what they sold in the US and UK combined in the rest of the world.

A lot of hard work went into that site and I guess that it is just unlucky that you happened to quote a whopping great error as I am loathe to criticise all that endeavor when it is based on facts [[unlike that other link you provided with someone's idea of the sales of everything by anyone ever!).

[jobeterob]

Three really good posts from Skool, Motown Lover and Strange.

Interesting about a lot of the shipments ending up in Canada.............because I used to get a lot of Motown records with holes in them at 10 or 15 records for $1.00. And I knew Motown a lot better than most people up here, so I'd be thrilled.

I agree with Strange's comment about "true" US sales; the figures I quoted out of the Hitsville book seem awfully high to me; generally, anything out of the record companies mouth is inflated.

There was only one comment I disagree with and it was Skool's comment about "they" want Stoned Love's sales to be above those of other Diana Ross and The Supremes records...............LOL! I think there is only one, perhaps two, people that WANT or NEED that in order for their day to carry on without stress; and we know who that is. But most of the rest of us.......it's just historically interesting. Right??

[marv2]

Three really good posts from Skool, Motown Lover and Strange.

Interesting about a lot of the shipments ending up in Canada.............because I used to get a lot of Motown records with holes in them at 10 or 15 records for $1.00. And I knew Motown a lot better than most people up here, so I'd be thrilled.

I agree with Strange's comment about "true" US sales; the figures I quoted out of the Hitsville book seem awfully high to me; generally, anything out of the record companies mouth is inflated.

There was only one comment I disagree with and it was Skool's comment about "they" want Stoned Love's sales to be above those of other Diana Ross and The Supremes records...............LOL! I think there is only one, perhaps two, people that WANT or NEED that in order for their day to carry on without stress; and we know who that is. But most of the rest of us.......it's just historically interesting. Right??

"Stoned Love" was one of the highest selling Motown Records singles.

[marv2]

Three really good posts from Skool, Motown Lover and Strange.

Interesting about a lot of the shipments ending up in Canada.............because I used to get a lot of Motown records with holes in them at 10 or 15 records for $1.00. And I knew Motown a lot better than most people up here, so I'd be thrilled.

I agree with Strange's comment about "true" US sales; the figures I quoted out of the Hitsville book seem awfully high to me; generally, anything out of the record companies mouth is inflated.

There was only one comment I disagree with and it was Skool's comment about "they" want Stoned Love's sales to be above those of other Diana Ross and The Supremes records...............LOL! I think there is only one, perhaps two, people that WANT or NEED that in order for their day to carry on without stress; and we know who that is. But most of the rest of us.......it's just historically interesting. Right??

Motown and Soul music in general was popular in Eastern Canada and still is. Maybe not as much as out in Western Canada, but in Toronto, Montreal, the rest of Ontario it was very popular.

[jobeterob]

See!!!!!!!!!

[Strange]

While it is a useful tool what exactly does an RIAA certification tell you?

Take the 1m mark for example - in some cases after the certification is claimed returns will be made so the record has not even sold 1m but the award is not rescinded.

But once it reaches 1m there is no way of knowing how many more it sells, the next award level is 2m - it could just have crept past the 1m or sold 1.9m!

All of that is correct Florence with the exception that the RIAA didn't/doesn't even measure sales ~ its measures shipments ~ half of which could be returned.

And there were examples around of big records companies with name artists shipping millions and seeing millions returned ~ but they didn't want their name artists failing. I'm pretty sure there were allegations of this being done by Sony and Arista with Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston on some of their less successful releases.

Yes jobeterob, as you so rightly say, shipments is what the Recording Industry Association of America [[RIAA) - the watchdog of the record industry if you like, but having been set-up and created by its members then with a vested interest in doing their bidding too! – tries to measure. All I can say is we have to trust in their intentions and auditors who actually visit the record companies to scrutinise the sales dockets/papers or whatever to confirm or deny a certification request.

The request bit is equally important as there can be no award considered unless the company/label invite the RIAA auditors along to check the veracity of what they’re claiming has been shipped. It isn’t a bad system, but especially in the late sixties and into the seventies there were plenty of ways and means to circumnavigate the rules, and one was to ship large early, call in the auditors, then when they’d gone the returns would flood in and make a mockery of the award.

So a time-delay rule was introduced before a record could be certified after release but, as you point out, the biggest acts can just ignore that too as they have the clout to force dealers and wholesalers to take what will be a mega-seller anyway. You have to play ball, so the old industry joke ‘shipped gold, returned platinum’ still applies only it went to ‘shipped platinum, returned multi-platinum’. Lol.

So Florence, you do make a good point again about the ‘failings’ of the RIAA system in so many ways, but they can all be taken into account if you look at the thousands of awards over 50-plus years as a whole. It will never be scientific but there are patterns and they tell a story that highlights pretty well when a freak [[i.e. inaccurate) result or claim is made such as that 3m for Stoned Love. It can’t be right!

You also have to assume that every label is ‘at it’ to some degree or another. Hell, this is the US of A, and the American way is to compete! Therefore if one award was a ‘cheap’ one, so potentially is another within the same time period and apparent performance. That is measured – again, not scientifically by any means – by looking at the overall trend of the various charts [[Billboard, Cash Box and Record World being the big three must haves) for a hit and making a judgement.

It’s a game, a hobby, a waste of time for sure, but a fairminded approach can result in fairly good estimates of what most records within given ranges sold. Back these up with known awards, media sales reports [[always taking care that they fit the expected pattern/model) and maybe for those with a buddy in the industry, or who knows a songwriter, even some actual royalty or publisher sales info might become available.

So I would say it is defeatist to simply say “but once it reaches 1m there is no way of knowing how many more it sells, the next award level is 2m - it could just have crept past the 1m or sold 1.9m!”; that is true about everything pretty much! What you can do is say, ok, this single is platinum and is therefore confirmed as shipping between 1,000,000 and 1,999,999 because it didn’t hit double platinum when the auditors came visit. The solution? Easy, apply the good old happy medium to each award level and in this case allow for 1.5m. Some mathematicians would go further and argue that statistically that isn’t correct and the median level is lower still, that’s fine if they really want to bash their brains out on it. But like I say, it is a bit of fun and when considering big acts like the Supremes or Diana, who are gonna be in the tens of millions of sales in the end anyway, the odd error here and there of even a couple hundred thousand will iron itself out, especially considering the number of releases involved.

There, it’s official, I’m an anorak!

[Strange]

Hey Strange- you are confusing them with the facts. LMAO. The only thing they are interested in is how this record out sold some records that were released by Diana Ross and the Supremes. Thats really what this thread is about. This record had to have sold 4 million copies, it has to be the biggest selling Supreme song. It has to, it just has to.....

Lol skooldem! I like your sense of humour man.

Damn fine record; damn fine group; common sense on stats never gonna be found on fan forums though, eh?

Although I rarely post it is fascinating that this conversation about record sales never really goes away. I also suspect we'll never know, and with the various explanations in this thread that I find interesting, only shows that the definitive number is relative at best. I wonder if all the Motown announcements back in the day about "million sellers" distorted things, not only for the artists, but for the general public at large.

Well motownlover1964, the music is the main vibe with me, but I like messing with numbers and figures and so I got inquisitive I guess and like I said above, we might never know down to the final zero what any record sold but we can put them in the right ballpark – if we’re interested.

If not, that’s fine too. Only adding what I can to the theme of the thread and glad some also join in and get to think about it for a laugh. There is no doubt that the Motown announcements over the years were ‘distorted’, as you put it. It was always about hype, promotion and so on. The Beatles and Elvis had their fair share too you’ll be glad to know…sell the sizzle!

[motony]

Motown was the leading record company in 45 sales in the industry in the 60's. Motown also was bootlegged bad in Central & South America. If they would have had legitimate sales in those countries I bet it would surpass Europe.

[Strange]

Three really good posts from Skool, Motown Lover and Strange.

Interesting about a lot of the shipments ending up in Canada.............because I used to get a lot of Motown records with holes in them at 10 or 15 records for $1.00. And I knew Motown a lot better than most people up here, so I'd be thrilled.

I agree with Strange's comment about "true" US sales; the figures I quoted out of the Hitsville book seem awfully high to me; generally, anything out of the record companies mouth is inflated.

There was only one comment I disagree with and it was Skool's comment about "they" want Stoned Love's sales to be above those of other Diana Ross and The Supremes records...............LOL! I think there is only one, perhaps two, people that WANT or NEED that in order for their day to carry on without stress; and we know who that is. But most of the rest of us.......it's just historically interesting. Right??

Well for my part I try my best jobeterob - neat use of the name btw. It's just a hobby and historically interesting in a small way I guess; people can make a living out of publishing books that just regurgitate dumb facts and figures that mean little and have even less connection with reality! Talking of which, any more figures from that Hitsville book that strike you as odd???

The 'holey' records is mostly a US phenom, you won't find the practice of huge over-shipping and returns/scraps/cut-outs in other countries as the marketing environment and size of the country mitigated against it. But to ensure a hit in those days that was fully supplied if it broke nationally then the presses had to roll and the One Stops and Racks had to have the product. If it clicked, happy days; if it didn't, the losses weren't insurmountable providing you had a good strike rate.

We can all agree that Motown were maybe unique in that area!

[Strange]

Motony - I recall having discussions about bootlegs and as it is an illegal practice there is hardly gonna be anyone lining up to claim he shifted a few thousand of this or that - and again it affects all the big stars.

Then you got counterfeits and piracy - Asia nowadays for the latter and Eastern Europe in the commie times for the former. No-one knows; I don't care to know as it might involve broken legs...lol.

Let's stick to the professional fibbers who are at least operating within the law, eh?! Leave the Al Capone's to their rackets.

[BobC]

No one's paying me no mind...

[Strange]

I personally tend to believe the figures JR Taraborrelli quoted in the 80s many also do but then just as many don't.

Then there is the weird situation when Motown claimed certifications in 1997 for a handful of singles I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, Baby Love, Stop! In The Name Of Love and Someday We'll Be Together.

Even though the records were released before the certification levels dropped they only had to reach the new level.

If for example Baby Love sold the the 2/3m which many claimed why when they had gone to the trouble of claiming a "posthumpus" award would they only claim Gold and not Platinum?

Ah well, the Supremes' sales conundrum will continue and never be resolved.

Florence, overlooked your Taraborrelli remarks and seeing as you have some neat links I wonder if you have that 80s info as it sounds interesting too?

As for the 1997 and 1999 certifications by the RIAA after Universal went digging through the old Motown papers, you see again how scratching about beneath the surface there is plenty of pointers as to what was selling what, even if, as you say, it surfaces many years after the times.

The Beatles, Stones, Streisand, Presley, Elton John, Neil Diamond labels all went and retrospectively went back to the sales paperwork and got the RIAA auditors to give their certification blessings. As I said earlier, we have to trust the independence of these guys and the findings give a very good snapshot of the what were the biggest sellers of the day. What’s more, the use of the updated post-1988 certification levels of 500k for gold and 1m for platinum and so on, well that tells us plenty about the true value of the original gold awards. We get to see that many must’ve returned beneath the original gold for 1m as they didn’t get upgraded…the artists and labels still liked the kudos and publicity of the platinum but obviously they couldn’t always get it!

‘Baby Love’ didn’t ship one million copies net. End of story. The RIAA say it didn’t, and short of a statement from Universal/Motown saying why, we have to assume that is the reality. That isn’t to say one million copies didn’t get shipped out; it doesn’t even confirm a million copies weren’t bought by Joe Public. What it tells us is an audit inspection around September 1997 they could only settle on a confirmed shipment figure between 500,000 and 999,999, and that is probably 950k-plus for sure. Same for ‘Stop In the Name of Love’, but for whatever reason the rest of the singles until the later ones you mention were not put forward for certification.

Apart from conspiracy theories the results are in as far as I can see to recognise the truth that selling a million copies in the sixties was a tough ask. And so it should be!

The claims of 2/3 million were from nowhere but the marketing and publicity departments, and who knows how they counted! Both sides of the single is legit if you don’t get specific I guess and just say the ‘single sold 2/3 million’.

There is no conundrum, just slick sales spiel!

[jobeterob]

The sales figures I recited above for Street Songs, Endless Love, Ben and Stoned Love were from the booklet that goes with the box set - Hitsville USA 1972 - 1992.

But I believe all those people are gone from Universal; hasn't it all been taken over by Hip O and the current guys?

[florence]

Florence, overlooked your Taraborrelli remarks and seeing as you have some neat links I wonder if you have that 80s info as it sounds interesting too?

As for the 1997 and 1999 certifications by the RIAA after Universal went digging through the old Motown papers, you see again how scratching about beneath the surface there is plenty of pointers as to what was selling what, even if, as you say, it surfaces many years after the times.

The Beatles, Stones, Streisand, Presley, Elton John, Neil Diamond labels all went and retrospectively went back to the sales paperwork and got the RIAA auditors to give their certification blessings. As I said earlier, we have to trust the independence of these guys and the findings give a very good snapshot of the what were the biggest sellers of the day. What’s more, the use of the updated post-1988 certification levels of 500k for gold and 1m for platinum and so on, well that tells us plenty about the true value of the original gold awards. We get to see that many must’ve returned beneath the original gold for 1m as they didn’t get upgraded…the artists and labels still liked the kudos and publicity of the platinum but obviously they couldn’t always get it!

‘Baby Love’ didn’t ship one million copies net. End of story. The RIAA say it didn’t, and short of a statement from Universal/Motown saying why, we have to assume that is the reality. That isn’t to say one million copies didn’t get shipped out; it doesn’t even confirm a million copies weren’t bought by Joe Public. What it tells us is an audit inspection around September 1997 they could only settle on a confirmed shipment figure between 500,000 and 999,999, and that is probably 950k-plus for sure. Same for ‘Stop In the Name of Love’, but for whatever reason the rest of the singles until the later ones you mention were not put forward for certification.

Apart from conspiracy theories the results are in as far as I can see to recognise the truth that selling a million copies in the sixties was a tough ask. And so it should be!

The claims of 2/3 million were from nowhere but the marketing and publicity departments, and who knows how they counted! Both sides of the single is legit if you don’t get specific I guess and just say the ‘single sold 2/3 million’.

There is no conundrum, just slick sales spiel!

Motown wasn't a member of the RIAA back in the 60s [[and most of the 70s I believe) otherwise we might have had some solid certifications.

I don't know exactly how the RIAA verify a claim but I always thought the company submitted the paperwork with "proof". Maybe someone could explain?

I don't know that the RIAA is saying Baby Love didn't sell 1m but rather that they have seen only data to support 500k.

Wasn't Motown's accounting imcomplete and a bit of a shambles and much of it mislaid or lost in later years so that Universal could only claim what hard data they had? The fact that they only submitted claims for 4 singles might point to this.

I couldn't make any certain claims as to how many, if any, Supremes' singles sold 1m but I would be surprised if neither You Can't Hurry Love nor Love Child passed the figure.

If you were basing your assumptions on the 1997 certifications it would mean that neither would have sold 500k. There's no way of proving they did, of course, but it would beggar belief.

Unless a lot of false claims were made and downright lies were told there must be at least a dozen Supremes' singles which passed 500k based on the chart performances. Love Child for example was on the Cashbox Chart for nearly 4 months with 3 weeks at #1 and a couple at #2 during the biggest selling period of the year. It wouldn't make sense it didn't even do 500k.

Anyway, I'll get JRT's book out and post what figurres he gives. Many agree with these, then again just as many don't!

[Strange]

I actually misquoted the Hitsville Motown 1972 - 1992 booklet when I referred to 3 million copies of Stoned Love being sold.

What it says, written by Terry Barnes, is:

Only a month after Diana's departure, the re-invented Supremes came with a Top 10 hit, Up the Ladder to the Roof. The same year they released Stoned Love, which sold an astounding 2.3 million copies. But there would be no more #1's. Not that the Supremes sounded any different; youth culture had moved on.

Sorry Jobeterob, was giving it too much spiel myself and overlooked your post detailing the other sales ‘revelations’. For what it’s worth, one-by-one, I’d say the ‘Stoned Love’ figures in the Hitsville Motown booklet are still too high however we reason it – domestic gross; domestic net or even world gross/net. As I pointed out to Florence concerning the inaccurate French No. 1 claim, the reality is that the Supremes [[and Motown generally) were never big sellers in their heyday outside of the US/UK. The odd exception, but those two would almost always represent 80% or more of the sales/shipments.

Further on, it says: Smokey wrote Floy Joy with Mary's voice in mind, and recorded it as a duet with Jean Terrell. It was the Supremes last Top 20 single and the last to sell over 500,000 copies.

And here we are getting a bit closer to the expected range of numbers for the visible success of ‘Floy Joy’ and others hitting mid-teens in the various US charts. But still too high for a US domestic total I’d say if we again look at what it took to go gold. It is another of the industry’s ways and means of being ‘economical with the truth’, mention a figure and don’t qualify it! After all, not many really care less or give it a moment’s thought…but a global half-million is very realistic.

And later: Diana's last great success in this period came in 1981 with Endless Love, a duet with Lionel Richie. Endless Love, written by Richie, topped the pop charts for 10 weeks and sold over 3 million copies.

I’ve had some fun looking at this one and I’ll put my extra thick anorak on later and explain what I reckon happened with seemingly ‘Endless Love’…!

With respect to Michael Jackson, David Ritz wrote: Considering the theme morbid [[Ben), a few radio stations were initially reluctant to play the single. But public taste prevailed. Ben sold some 1.7 million copies and was nominated for an Academy Award.

I like this total as a gross figure Stateside, or a global number. The period 72-79 was a good one for singles it seems especially as there was so much competition that freebies and over-shipping were expected by all One Stops and Rackjobbers as a matter of course. ‘Well, if you want me to handle this single I’d need a bit more incentive…’ nudge, wink!

With respect to Dancing Machine, it says: He [[Michael) created a classic street dance and before it was over, the single sold two million copies.

What I said above about ‘Ben’ applies in spades here. The two million is obviously too much for a domestic sale unless again the level of free records was three-for-ten, which it could easily be at times in the murky world of the record industry. Once more I’d wonder why Universal/Motown didn’t go for double platinum if it really qualified? And the same for the earlier platinum for ‘Ben’ as it is well known Michael liked to get his due when it came to awards…

David Ritz also writes that one Billboard account says the Miracles's single Love Machine, was the most successful Miracles single of all time.

I don’t think there can be any doubt about that statement for ‘Love Machine’ jobeterob. It only had ‘Tears Of A Clown’ to beat when single sales were not so hot in summer 70 as against early 76.

With respect to Rick James, Scott Galloway wrote: His first single, You and I, was an out of the box smash and established Rick as a platinum selling superstar. In 1981, the stakes were raised when his 5th album, Street Songs, sold over 3 million copies domestically. [[Perhaps that means some of the other figures quoted were not domestic, but worldwide).

And there, as you say, the required qualification is apparent when they say ‘domestically’. It went platinum in July 1981 and was a mega-hit album in the Soul charts, so at the time of its active chart life it probably went over two million [[or close) but as no multi-platinum awards existed until 1984 it had nowhere to go for upgrades. Being an album it would’ve been great on catalogue and revived when CD came around, so after twenty years three million looks fair enough. Albums are simply a no-win to guesstimate without RIAA upgrades.

[Strange]

Motown wasn't a member of the RIAA back in the 60s [[and most of the 70s I believe) otherwise we might have had some solid certifications.

That is correct Florence, and well known in industry and other [[here!) circles. The question has always been why? Clearly it did them no good to declare or else they'd have done it - they didn't need to be members as is often mistakenly thought to be the case.

I don't know exactly how the RIAA verify a claim but I always thought the company submitted the paperwork with "proof". Maybe someone could explain?

The RIAA need to be approached that a single or album has achieved a certification level. They then [[at least prior to the digital age) sent the independent auditors a telex/fax/phone call to get their asses down to the relevant label's place of accounting or whatever and told them to report back. Based on whatever they saw, the rules in force at the time and [[hopefully) with no brown envelopes exchanging hands [[alledgedly), they'd tell the RIAA whether the particular record had indeed shipped what the label said. RIAA would then announce the award, or tell the company it had failed.

I don't know that the RIAA is saying Baby Love didn't sell 1m but rather that they have seen only data to support 500k.

Wasn't Motown's accounting imcomplete and a bit of a shambles and much of it mislaid or lost in later years so that Universal could only claim what hard data they had? The fact that they only submitted claims for 4 singles might point to this.

Indeed, it is conveniently claimed that their accounting was a bit of a shambles. That is one way of looking at it if you have a vested interest in continuing a myth, which after all is what the marketing department was all about in the first place so why destroy your own handywork? I've no doubt that there isn't sufficient paperwork left to certify everything retrospectively, but as usual we have more than enough evidence from the hundreds of other companies who did get involved in the scheme to figure out that what Universal could present the auditors with was complete enough. So yep, they have only seen enough data to support 500k, but not 1m. That is perfectly in tune with the times. Like I said the probability is 950k.

I couldn't make any certain claims as to how many, if any, Supremes' singles sold 1m but I would be surprised if neither You Can't Hurry Love nor Love Child passed the figure.

If you were basing your assumptions on the 1997 certifications it would mean that neither would have sold 500k. There's no way of proving they did, of course, but it would beggar belief.

Unless a lot of false claims were made and downright lies were told there must be at least a dozen Supremes' singles which passed 500k based on the chart performances. Love Child for example was on the Cashbox Chart for nearly 4 months with 3 weeks at #1 and a couple at #2 during the biggest selling period of the year. It wouldn't make sense it didn't even do 500k.

Anyway, I'll get JRT's book out and post what figurres he gives. Many agree with these, then again just as many don't!

Of course neither you or I could make certain claims about the million sellers of the Supremes. It is however perfectly possible to reach some reasoned and logical conclusions which until the proverbial goalposts get moved again with more paperwork found, or something equally unlikely, is all we can do.

It would be a big surprise if any of their No. 1’s didn’t ship out one million copies at the time, so why no awards? You see therein is the clue that tells us again what jobeterob and I have been chewing over – returns. The auditors are charged – as the RIAA website clearly states – with assessing the validity of a certification based on net shipments. Not gross; no exports or cut-outs but net shipments. In 1964 there were just seven RIAA awards for this achievement Florence, and that included four from the Beatles. I’ll say it again, it was a tough order to make it to a gold disc, just like it should be and why the RIAA was founded in 1958 to stop all the crap claims that bedevilled the industry.

So blame Mr. Gordy and his advisors, but frankly it is apparent he knew the awards wouldn’t be forthcoming and so kept the prying eyes at bay. Maybe you think the Beach Boys were also shafted? Plenty of big charting singles but only one – at the time – able to get past one million, while all the while their albums made it. I’d recommend everyone who is really interested in all this stuff to get hold of a copy of ‘The Billboard Book of Gold & Platinum Records’ which was published in 1990 with all the then awards listed. The explanations and rule changes alone should open a few eyes – should if you’re looking without rose-tinted glasses that is!

So yep, the odd lie was told to the trade and media publications and as always it gets perpetuated in biogs and books of hit lists etc. Nothing was really qualified when they said anything, it was left vague and so there could be little come back from stroppy artists or even songwriters wondering where their royalty checks were for these missing millions. They’d be told what was happening then if they raised it.

And that’s how it will stay – it isn’t in Motown’s interest to claim awards that contradict history, is it? I look forward to the JRT figures when you can.

[jobeterob]

Thanks for the replies.

I have the JRT figures at home; but what is interesting about them is that in his updated, complete, new biography of DR, he dropped all of the figures; they were all deleted.

And that has always made me suspicious of them; I read that as he found out the initial figures may be suspect, so he deleted them.

I think they said something like about 6 singles sold one or two million........You Can't Hurry Love, Ain't No Mountain High Enough, maybe Touch Me in the Morning, Where Did Our Love Go, Someday We'll be Together. But not Baby Love, Stop in the Name of Love and quite a few of the other #1's.

[motony]

In the 80's at the Hard Rock Cafe at Universal Studios in Orlando, I was looking at all the memorabelia on the walls & came across a framed RIAA Gold Record of the Motown Yesteryear Series Label 45 of "My Guy" by Mary Wells..this is the Yesteryear Series Not Motown#1056.Needless to say Mary Wells was quite upset because she did not get the gold record NOR the royalties for it. So if that reissue sold a million I wonder what the total would be for Motown#1056.

[reese]

In the 80's at the Hard Rock Cafe at Universal Studios in Orlando, I was looking at all the memorabelia on the walls & came across a framed RIAA Gold Record of the Motown Yesteryear Series Label 45 of "My Guy" by Mary Wells..this is the Yesteryear Series Not Motown#1056.Needless to say Mary Wells was quite upset because she did not get the gold record NOR the royalties for it. So if that reissue sold a million I wonder what the total would be for Motown#1056.

They showed a similar disc on ET when Mary was ill. It might have been a platinum one, as I recall. I wonder if the RIAA just grabbed any copy of the single when they finally made up the disc, as opposed to just that the Yesteryear edition sold a million.

Also, they showed a gold album for her GREATEST HITS album, but the label copy looked as if it was from the 70s or 80s. Did Mary ever get one of those?

[motony]

yes, she did get a platinum framed copy of Greatest Hits in the late 80's[[she would have rather had the money, LOL).

[Strange]

Thanks for the replies.

I have the JRT figures at home; but what is interesting about them is that in his updated, complete, new biography of DR, he dropped all of the figures; they were all deleted.

And that has always made me suspicious of them; I read that as he found out the initial figures may be suspect, so he deleted them.

I think they said something like about 6 singles sold one or two million........You Can't Hurry Love, Ain't No Mountain High Enough, maybe Touch Me in the Morning, Where Did Our Love Go, Someday We'll be Together. But not Baby Love, Stop in the Name of Love and quite a few of the other #1's.

I saw you mention that elsewhere the other week jobeterob. If the numbers get put up by you or Florence I'll be able to comment better, but based on what you're saying about two million totals, and what hopefully the open-minded here have understood about my previous explanations of the sales in the 60s and 70s and how the market was, then it already seems like they were dubious.

Love this stuff too much, must get a life. Lol.