Diana Ross back in the UK charts.

[jobeterob]

How come so bitter? Did you want to manage her at one time? Did she say "no" to many things?

The answer to any naysayers is Central Park, Lady Sings the Blue, the Guiness Book of World Records, Soul Train Award of Merit, 8 American Music Awards, Billboards Female Artist of the Century, Mahogany, The Wiz which keeps on selling more and more and now is her most successful movie, Out of Darkness and on and on.

As I remember the Guiness Book of World Records citation began with .................."Widely regarded at the most successful female vocalist of all time..............."

And they all get old and they all retire, some gracefully and some throwing water at kids..............

Rejoice that they had careers and you could put your hand out and up in the air and say Stop!

[Roberta75]

How come so bitter? Did you want to manage her at one time? Did she say "no" to many things?

The answer to any naysayers is Central Park, Lady Sings the Blue, the Guiness Book of World Records, Soul Train Award of Merit, 8 American Music Awards, Billboards Female Artist of the Century, Mahogany, The Wiz which keeps on selling more and more and now is her most successful movie, Out of Darkness and on and on.

As I remember the Guiness Book of World Records citation began with .................."Widely regarded at the most successful female vocalist of all time..............."

And they all get old and they all retire, some gracefully and some throwing water at kids..............

Rejoice that they had careers and you could put your hand out and up in the air and say Stop!

And what has to be the icing on any performer's cake, The Kennedy Center Honor.

[marv2]

And what has to be the icing on any performer's cake, The Kennedy Center Honor.

Any award where you would have to watch the program to figure out what it is, is not a popular or well known award. It's not like the average Joe is going to know what a Kennedy Center Honor is or what it means. Now if you mentioned any of the following for example, they would know:

Super Bowl Ring/Vince Lombardi Trophy
Grammy Award
Stanley Cup
The Oscar
World Series Trophy
Nobel Prize

[marv2]

How come so bitter? Did you want to manage her at one time? Did she say "no" to many things?

The answer to any naysayers is Central Park, Lady Sings the Blue, the Guiness Book of World Records, Soul Train Award of Merit, 8 American Music Awards, Billboards Female Artist of the Century, Mahogany, The Wiz which keeps on selling more and more and now is her most successful movie, Out of Darkness and on and on.

As I remember the Guiness Book of World Records citation began with .................."Widely regarded at the most successful female vocalist of all time..............."

And they all get old and they all retire, some gracefully and some throwing water at kids..............

Rejoice that they had careers and you could put your hand out and up in the air and say Stop!

We're not talking about all that stuff. We are talking about record charts and you are the main guy that ALWAYS brings up the charts, mostly Billboard Charts or don't you remember? Any way, do you have your theory as for why it seems Diana cannot chart in the U.S. to save her life?

[JohnnyB]

Sadly, as RCA and Motown began to lose interest EMI continued promoting Diana. The Force Behind The Power CD from 1991 is a perfect example. Two singles were released in the US [[When You Tell Me That You Love Me and Waiting In The Wings). Five additional singles from the project were released worldwide.

I've put together a list of Diana's worldwide single releases post-86 from memory, but can only come up with 34. Several have never been released in the US even on LP!

[marv2]

Sadly, as RCA and Motown began to lose interest EMI continued promoting Diana. The Force Behind The Power CD from 1991 is a perfect example. Two singles were released in the US [[When You Tell Me That You Love Me and Waiting In The Wings). Five additional singles from the project were released worldwide.

I've put together a list of Diana's worldwide single releases post-86 from memory, but can only come up with 34. Several have never been released in the US even on LP!

Could it have been that they had already anticipated those singles failing miserably in the U.S. market so they decided not to even bother releasing them here?

[marv2]

Sadly, as RCA and Motown began to lose interest EMI continued promoting Diana. The Force Behind The Power CD from 1991 is a perfect example. Two singles were released in the US [[When You Tell Me That You Love Me and Waiting In The Wings). Five additional singles from the project were released worldwide.

I've put together a list of Diana's worldwide single releases post-86 from memory, but can only come up with 34. Several have never been released in the US even on LP!

I had heard that Motown did not know exactly how to market her music and I am guessing that RCA felt that they had a built in hitmaker with her which is why they did little to nothing to promote her. She had much more control there.

[jobeterob]

Yer swimmin up hill Marv..........the Kennedy Centre Honor is the equivalent of being Knighted by the Queen in England.

I just don't think that you can take that away from anyone; you try pullin that with Aretha and in her heyday, she'd have sat on you and refused to get up!

[marv2]

Yer swimmin up hill Marv..........the Kennedy Centre Honor is the equivalent of being Knighted by the Queen in England.

I just don't think that you can take that away from anyone; you try pullin that with Aretha and in her heyday, she'd have sat on you and refused to get up!

I don't think so! Anything given out by George Bush cannot be of much value LOL! Besides, in America it is "the Presidential Medal of Freedom" and "the Congressional Medal of Honor" are highest awards bestowed on American Citizens. Aretha did win the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2005 [[GW Bush notwithstanding.....LOL!)

So why do you feel Diana Ross has had more luck elsewhere than on the US Charts over the last several decades?

[dianesfan_1965]

Yer swimmin up hill Marv..........the Kennedy Centre Honor is the equivalent of being Knighted by the Queen in England.

I just don't think that you can take that away from anyone; you try pullin that with Aretha and in her heyday, she'd have sat on you and refused to get up!

Dare to dream, hon! Dare to dream.

[smark21]

Does anyone know how well Shantal Baker's latest single "Rub my belly [[Awwww Baby!)" is doing in the UK? It's the new song on her greatest hits album.

[marv2]

Does anyone know how well Shantal Baker's latest single "Rub my belly [[Awwww Baby!)" is doing in the UK? It's the new song on her greatest hits album.

It's got to be neck and neck with Diane's new record.

[skooldem1]

Billboard Charts
Date/Title/Peak Position


Jazz Albums

07/01/2006 Blue #2


Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums

03/14/2009 Playlist your Way #100
02/03/2007 I Love You #16
07/08/2006 Blue #7
06/05/1999 Everyday is a new Day #47
10/14/1995 Take me Higher #38
05/07/1994 Diana Extended/The Remixes #68
01/01/1994 Forever Diana #88
11/02/1991 The Force behind the Power #66
07/22/1989 Workin' Overtime #34
06/27/1987 Red Hot Rhythm & Blues #39
11/30/1985 Eaten Alive #27



R&B/Hip-Hop Songs

03/23/1996 If you're not gonna love me right #67
10/14/1995 Take me Higher #77
10/19/1991 When you tell me that you love me #37
?1991 No matter what you do [[w/Al B.Sure) #4
09/30/1989 This House #64
07/01/1989 Workin' Overtime #3
07/04/1987 Dirty Looks #12
11/16/1985 Eaten Alive #10
07/13/1985 Telephone #13
02/23/1985 Missing You #1



Billboard Top 200 Album Chart

02/03/2007 I Love You #32
07/08/2006 Blue #146
06/06/1999 Every Day is a new Day #108
01/14/1995 Take me Higher #114
09/28/1991 The Force behind the power #102
07/01/1989 Workin' Overtime #116
11/16/1985 Eaten Alive #45


Dance/Club Play Songs

06/19/1999 Until we meet Again #2
05/04/1996 I will Survive #37
12/02/1995 Take me Higher #1
06/04/1994 Someday We'll be together/Remix #7
02/22/1992 You're gonna love it #24
04/08/1989 Love Hangover89 #3
06/24/1989 Workin' Overtime #11
09/09/1989 Paradise #11
03/01/1986 Chain Reaction Remix #7
11/09/1985 Eaten Alive #3





http://www.billboard.com/artist/dian...t-history/5566

[skooldem1]

A couple of things to note with this list. Its apparent that Diana's reign as the Queen of Pop ended in the mid 80's. But by that time she had already left her mark on that decade, with the highest highs- chart wise of her career. Riding out that decade and moving into the 90's to the 2000's she found more success on the R&B charts and the Dance charts. Her success on the R&B chart dispells the idea that the black community/record buyers deserted Diana Ross. I'd also take a guess and say that her success on the Dance/Club chart means that a younger demographic does indeed know who she is. Looking at these charts you can easily see that even after her commercial peak, Diana Ross remained a presence on the Billboard charts.

[luke]

Doris Day just made top ten albums in UK too!

[Roberta75]

Doris Day just made top ten albums in UK too!

Why can't Doris chart in the US?

[marv2]

Billboard Charts
Date/Title/Peak Position


Jazz Albums

07/01/2006 Blue #2


Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums

03/14/2009 Playlist your Way #100
02/03/2007 I Love You #16
07/08/2006 Blue #7
06/05/1999 Everyday is a new Day #47
10/14/1995 Take me Higher #38
05/07/1994 Diana Extended/The Remixes #68
01/01/1994 Forever Diana #88
11/02/1991 The Force behind the Power #66
07/22/1989 Workin' Overtime #34
06/27/1987 Red Hot Rhythm & Blues #39
11/30/1985 Eaten Alive #27



R&B/Hip-Hop Songs

03/23/1996 If you're not gonna love me right #67
10/14/1995 Take me Higher #77
10/19/1991 When you tell me that you love me #37
?1991 No matter what you do [[w/Al B.Sure) #4
09/30/1989 This House #64
07/01/1989 Workin' Overtime #3
07/04/1987 Dirty Looks #12
11/16/1985 Eaten Alive #10
07/13/1985 Telephone #13
02/23/1985 Missing You #1



Billboard Top 200 Album Chart

02/03/2007 I Love You #32
07/08/2006 Blue #146
06/06/1999 Every Day is a new Day #108
01/14/1995 Take me Higher #114
09/28/1991 The Force behind the power #102
07/01/1989 Workin' Overtime #116
11/16/1985 Eaten Alive #45


Dance/Club Play Songs

06/19/1999 Until we meet Again #2
05/04/1996 I will Survive #37
12/02/1995 Take me Higher #1
06/04/1994 Someday We'll be together/Remix #7
02/22/1992 You're gonna love it #24
04/08/1989 Love Hangover89 #3
06/24/1989 Workin' Overtime #11
09/09/1989 Paradise #11
03/01/1986 Chain Reaction Remix #7
11/09/1985 Eaten Alive #3





http://www.billboard.com/artist/dian...t-history/5566

Nice! Now where are the Pop Charts?

[marv2]

A couple of things to note with this list. Its apparent that Diana's reign as the Queen of Pop ended in the mid 80's. But by that time she had already left her mark on that decade, with the highest highs- chart wise of her career. Riding out that decade and moving into the 90's to the 2000's she found more success on the R&B charts and the Dance charts. Her success on the R&B chart dispells the idea that the black community/record buyers deserted Diana Ross. I'd also take a guess and say that her success on the Dance/Club chart means that a younger demographic does indeed know who she is. Looking at these charts you can easily see that even after her commercial peak, Diana Ross remained a presence on the Billboard charts.

Diana Ross had her first Solo #1 Hit in 1970 and her last one in 1980. "Diana Ross 1970-80" would make a great title for a greatest hits collection in my opinion.

[marv2]

Why can't Doris chart in the US?

Maybe she's been hanging around diana ross too much?

[luke]

LOLOL. It is often said the British charts are VERY eccentric!

[marv2]

LOLOL. It is often said the British charts are VERY eccentric!

I heard, now I did not say this, but "having a hit in the U.K, is like having a hit in New Jersey!" hehehehehehe !

[jobeterob]

Is it a tough pill to swallow guys?

Now, one two three.......with some water, you can do it.........cuz it's there no matter what; now you can do it for mama

[Jimi LaLumia]

don't drag me into this, with an out of context quote....
I like you,marv2, is this a road that you really want to travel?

[marv2]

don't drag me into this, with an out of context quote....
I like you,marv2, is this a road that you really want to travel?

Wait a minute. Jimi, are you one that said having a hit in the UK is like having a hit in NJ?

[Jimi LaLumia]

in proportion to number of copies sold vs. the size of the respective population..

[marv2]

in proportion to number of copies sold vs. the size of the respective population..

Yes, it makes sense. There were regional hits in the U.S. that never made it nationally but sold more than in some foreign markets.

[ejluther]

As others have pointed out, this doesn't just happen to Diana Ross in the US - the number of established and undeniably successful artists that continue to have new hits after the age of 40 or so is a very small list indeed. And AOR [[adult orientated radio) stations that seem ideal for these artists are very resistant to new material from them - it seems they think that audiences only want to hear the old hits. And maybe they're right. Artists become "frozen" in the public's mind and that's where they stay - forever doing their greatest hits. Why does the public freeze them? I think that as many people age they simply stop buying as much new music so, for them, that's where the artist remains - in the past. And it's very difficult for any artist of a certain age to get young people interested in them. Not to mention that music sales as a whole have taken a huge downturn due to digital piracy and internet "sharing". And then there are catalog sales to consider - an artist doesn't have to have a new album out to sell music. Still, I think it's good for established artists to keep releasing new music even if it doesn't sell huge amounts - having huge hits is great but much of my personal favorite music has never been close to a hit single/album chart in its life.

PS: Having said all that, it's undeniably true that Diana's public image took a major hit during this time [[The DREAMGIRL book and Motown 25 to name two obvious examples) and people may have stopped buying her music simply because they stopped liking her as a person. And, without the Motown machine behind her, the attention to her career itself clearly faltered - without a champion like Berry Gordy behind you, anyone is going to have a tougher time of it.

I was also thinking of Rod Stewart and the irony/lesson that his late-career resurgance is due to singing old songs, too - not his own old songs - but old songs nonetheless.

[smark21]

Doris Day just made top ten albums in UK too!

With an album of newly released material...not a greatest hits set. And she did an interview with Paul McCartney to promote it. It hasn't been released in the US, I don't believe.

[smark21]

This whole thread certainly verifies a belief I have about some Diana Ross and Supremes fans. A good deal of their fandom is based on sales, chart position and popularity [[at least at one time in the past or another) of the act[[s) rather than it being mostly about the work. I think part of Ross and Supremes promotion has been about rags to riches, project to the penthouse, which some fans, who are social outcasts in their own lives, at least when they were young [[and the pain probably still hurts) deeply identified with that narrative and as a result, may put too much of an emotional investment on superficial, fleeting matters such as sales and chart position, rather than the songs. True, the success of the songs and albums at the time of release built a fanbase that endures and ensures that product is reissued, but at this point, there's just something sad about fighting over chart position, or lack thereof, in 2011. Perhaps I'm too sympathetic to the indie mindset which views sales success as evidence of selling out and lack of integrity and that's it preferable to be on the margins rather than socially acceptable?

[marv2]

As others have pointed out, this doesn't just happen to Diana Ross in the US - the number of established and undeniably successful artists that continue to have new hits after the age of 40 or so is a very small list indeed. And AOR [[adult orientated radio) stations that seem ideal for these artists are very resistant to new material from them - it seems they think that audiences only want to hear the old hits. And maybe they're right. Artists become "frozen" in the public's mind and that's where they stay - forever doing their greatest hits. Why does the public freeze them? I think that as many people age they simply stop buying as much new music so, for them, that's where the artist remains - in the past. And it's very difficult for any artist of a certain age to get young people interested in them. Not to mention that music sales as a whole have taken a huge downturn due to digital piracy and internet "sharing". And then there are catalog sales to consider - an artist doesn't have to have a new album out to sell music. Still, I think it's good for established artists to keep releasing new music even if it doesn't sell huge amounts - having huge hits is great but much of my personal favorite music has never been close to a hit single/album chart in its life.

PS: Having said all that, it's undeniably true that Diana's public image took a major hit during this time [[The DREAMGIRL book and Motown 25 to name two obvious examples) and people may have stopped buying her music simply because they stopped liking her as a person. And, without the Motown machine behind her, the attention to her career itself clearly faltered - without a champion like Berry Gordy behind you, anyone is going to have a tougher time of it.

I was also thinking of Rod Stewart and the irony/lesson that his late-career resurgance is due to singing old songs, too - not his own old songs - but old songs nonetheless.

Great post! I think you covered all the bases without getting all emotional about the subject. I understand and agree with all that you said here. Thank you Ejluther!

[marv2]

This whole thread certainly verifies a belief I have about some Diana Ross and Supremes fans. A good deal of their fandom is based on sales, chart position and popularity [[at least at one time in the past or another) of the act[[s) rather than it being mostly about the work. I think part of Ross and Supremes promotion has been about rags to riches, project to the penthouse, which some fans, who are social outcasts in their own lives, at least when they were young [[and the pain probably still hurts) deeply identified with that narrative and as a result, may put too much of an emotional investment on superficial, fleeting matters such as sales and chart position, rather than the songs. True, the success of the songs and albums at the time of release built a fanbase that endures and ensures that product is reissued, but at this point, there's just something sad about fighting over chart position, or lack thereof, in 2011. Perhaps I'm too sympathetic to the indie mindset which views sales success as evidence of selling out and lack of integrity and that's it preferable to be on the margins rather than socially acceptable?

Another great post! After reading this and other forums for years now, your theory sounds very plausible. Certain people suffer from what I call the " Nah, Nah, Nah" syndrome! The do put more emphasis on chart positions, volume sold etc ,etc when it comes to music which is "art" in my opinion! Whether some individuals were social outcasts or not, I am not sure, but they do invest a lot of emotional capital in certain artists ,while devaluing other artists that did not "score" as many number one hits! That says nothing about the art itself, but speaks volumes about their own psyche. I have always bought music that I liked and sounded good to me personally. I have never bought an album or single because it had sold a lot and went high on the charts!

[skooldem1]

This whole thread certainly verifies a belief I have about some Diana Ross and Supremes fans. A good deal of their fandom is based on sales, chart position and popularity [[at least at one time in the past or another) of the act[[s) rather than it being mostly about the work. I think part of Ross and Supremes promotion has been about rags to riches, project to the penthouse, which some fans, who are social outcasts in their own lives, at least when they were young [[and the pain probably still hurts) deeply identified with that narrative and as a result, may put too much of an emotional investment on superficial, fleeting matters such as sales and chart position, rather than the songs. True, the success of the songs and albums at the time of release built a fanbase that endures and ensures that product is reissued, but at this point, there's just something sad about fighting over chart position, or lack thereof, in 2011. Perhaps I'm too sympathetic to the indie mindset which views sales success as evidence of selling out and lack of integrity and that's it preferable to be on the margins rather than socially acceptable?

You have been on this rant for a while now. Your obsession with these type of people is just as crazy. These are music/artist fans. Discussing charts and stats is a normal thing on a music site [[you would think). You seemed to be convinced that anyone who sites stats in support of certain musical arguments somehow is not fully developed mentally. Its a pattern I have noticed over the years by many who are fans of acts who may have not been as successful. Its makes them feel better to minimize commercial success, yet if it were their favorite act, they would be shouting stats from the roof tops and don't try and act like they wouldn't. Would it be a fair comparison to say that anyone who likes "indie" music is a loser and a outcast? Would it be a fair comparison to say that anyone who likes an artist who is "unsung" or never had a commercially successful solo career is a loser as well?

In this instance, I for the first time that I can think of, compiled a list solely for the purpose of countering the absurd notion that Diana Ross has been absent and can't chart on Billboard to save her life, so it was necessary to post proof that this is wrong.

A music fan is no worse than a sport fan. When watchin football on Sundays, all you hear are stats from the broadcasters. The fans watching together in their living rooms/man caves brag about the championship and superbowl wins, and player stats. This is no different.

This is a hobby to some. Some have a favorite team, some have a favorite entertainer. Its all good. What's not good is someone that always being judgemental, and always has some snarky ass comments to make about what other people enjoy. That says way more about you than anyone who enjoys stats.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I became a Supremes fan the first time I heard "Where Did Our love Go' on the radio in the car when I was 12, it had to do with
The Motown Sound" and the way the vocals cut through the AM static, I think looked forward to each subsequent release, one more exciting than the other, there was no 'rags to riches' involved...
some people have way too much free time on their hands

[jobeterob]

There are two issues; one is "liking the music", "enjoying the sound".........and when Motown first started, it had few or no chart positions; it had to attract it's audience based on it's sound and artists; and eventually, half of it's releases were making the national trade publications charts. Without a popular base, the artists would have to go get day jobs and wouldn't be widely known.

Skooldem is right; chart stats are like hockey and football stats; they are just fun and a measure of success. And to me, it is awesome that Motown and the Beatles and Elvis Presley and Aretha Franklin, the Temptations, the Supremes and Diana Ross have so many chart statistics to quote.

However, chart positions don't mean you'll like the artist or the music. Justin Beiber and Taylor Swift and Rhianna are taking over some of the top chart positions enjoyed by Aretha, Diana, the Beatles etc. and Taylor and Justin won't be the favorites of the SD crowd. On the other hand, the young crowd has little interest in Motown beyond calling it old and assuming it means all R & B/Soul Music.

It is somewhat naive to think you would have the debates about issues amongst Supremes, Beatles and Temptations had those groups and their lead singers, Paul McCartney and Diana Ross not been amongst the most commercially successful artists of all time; nor would those people be touring to sold out performances as they near the age of 70 when no one remains at their peak vocal ability.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Supremes, Beatles, Temptations were all groups, more than one person, which always leads to drama, gossip, conflict,something that EVERYONE pays attention to, including those who say otherwise,and while the music is always the most important element, an interest in drama dates back to ancient Greece;
it's part of the human condition, if there isn't drama then we'll make some...
the current era of solo ,single superstars can't nearly be as much fun as the era of groups was, for this very reason

[marv2]

Supremes, Beatles, Temptations were all groups, more than one person, which always leads to drama, gossip, conflict,something that EVERYONE pays attention to, including those who say otherwise,and while the music is always the most important element, an interest in drama dates back to ancient Greece;
it's part of the human condition, if there isn't drama then we'll make some...
the current era of solo ,single superstars can't nearly be as much fun as the era of groups was, for this very reason

True dat! So true. Not much can be added to what you just said.

[smark21]

You have been on this rant for a while now. Your obsession with these type of people is just as crazy. These are music/artist fans. Discussing charts and stats is a normal thing on a music site [[you would think). You seemed to be convinced that anyone who sites stats in support of certain musical arguments somehow is not fully developed mentally. Its a pattern I have noticed over the years by many who are fans of acts who may have not been as successful. Its makes them feel better to minimize commercial success, yet if it were their favorite act, they would be shouting stats from the roof tops and don't try and act like they wouldn't. Would it be a fair comparison to say that anyone who likes "indie" music is a loser and a outcast? Would it be a fair comparison to say that anyone who likes an artist who is "unsung" or never had a commercially successful solo career is a loser as well?

In this instance, I for the first time that I can think of, compiled a list solely for the purpose of countering the absurd notion that Diana Ross has been absent and can't chart on Billboard to save her life, so it was necessary to post proof that this is wrong.

A music fan is no worse than a sport fan. When watchin football on Sundays, all you hear are stats from the broadcasters. The fans watching together in their living rooms/man caves brag about the championship and superbowl wins, and player stats. This is no different.

This is a hobby to some. Some have a favorite team, some have a favorite entertainer. Its all good. What's not good is someone that always being judgemental, and always has some snarky ass comments to make about what other people enjoy. That says way more about you than anyone who enjoys stats.

Well my username is Smark, so I have to be snarky and judgemental. Everyone is judgemental to one degree or another.

When I was younger, I was more into charts and felt very happy when an act I really liked scored well. But I've grown up. I don't have the need to feel validated in such a way. It's nice if an act I like does well, but it's not that important to me any longer. Marv was baiting Diana Ross fans to respond with chart info and you took the bait, big time. I think a more mature response would have been, "sure, she's not riding high on the charts like she did in the 70's, but she's come out some quality work in the last 20 years like the Take Me Higher album and her concert performances, especially when she does "Don't Explain"". If you had taken that tack, you might have changed the subject and come across as a fan who is not fixated on the charts.

In the More Hits are Here thread, BayouGuy [[I don't have the username down pat) mentioned that he's still "bitter" that Nothing But Heartaches didn't go #1 46 years ago. How can a grown man still be bitter about how a song charted in 1965? It's not as if the song was permanently vaulted and all 45's sold were recalled and destroyed and no one can hear it any longer. If you enjoy Nothing But Heartaches, enjoy it. It's a fun song, who cares how it charted or sold in 1965? And even more perverse are those who get off when an artist they don't like doesn't do well on the charts, by their standards, or becomes insecure when they do well, or more significantly, receive good reviews for their live show. I can't even begin to fathom such a mindset.

Discussing charts can be interesting and fun, but when it becomes the be-all and end all of a fan's discussion about their favorite artist, then it sends up a warning flag for me at least. A couple of years ago a friend and I were discussing Diana Ross fans and he made the observation, which has stuck with me and I've admittedly worked to death here, that die hard, hard core Diana Ross fans one finds on the internet tend to be people who come across as social outcasts and misfits. They loved Diana Ross because she was skinny, unconventional looking and did not have a big soul voice and thus was thought untalented or unworthy of success by some of her peers at Motown. But she worked her ass off and triumphed over the odds. My friend thinks these feel validated and live vacariously through her success as they too have been dismissed for who and what they are. That is why they can get very defensive and go on the attack when anyone criticizes her because they identify with her so closely. Hence when they make their arguments defending Diana Ross, they reach for the most concrete evidence out there: sales statistics and chart position. It struck a chord with me. And to be fair. die hard fans of other popular acts who appeal to marginalizes individuals also tend to put a big emphasis on sales and chart position. In contrast, I used to belong to a Frank Sinatra on line discussion group. Most of the members were older straight white males--and guess what, they rarely talked about Sinatra's sales and chart success. Because straight white males are privilged in US society, these Sinatra fans didn't need to turn to sales and chart positions to feel validated. Instead, they got their validation in the music in the stories and attitude Sinatra brought to the songs.

So Diana Ross' greatest hits debuting at #24 in the UK is nice, but that's all it is. Hopefully that means more re-issues of her classic Motown albums and vaulted material. But chart position and sales reveal nothing of whether a musician is good or not, all it means is they debut at #24. Anyway I'm starting to invade JuiceFree's turf for long posts, so I'm wrapping this up.

[jobeterob]

Interesting viewpoint and you make some good points.

High chart positions tend to indicate a CD is selling, especially since the 1990's; it's a bit of a brownie point to sell a few CDS when you are 70 years old; so I think it means a little bit more than you reached #24.

I enjoyed reading your analysis. It's hard to disagree with one general point you make.........there are some fucked up Supremes fans of all genres around. Right Ralph? Bet ya he's not lookin in on this one either.

[Bokiluis]

"Love and Life" was also certified gold and platinum in the U.K. So the chart number is not always the full picture of how well this has done.

[Bokiluis]

No, closer to the truth was by 1991, Motown Records was a shell of itself. "The Force Behind the Power" was a pop record with soul shadings. As far as promotion goes, the last strain of influence that Motown had was reserved for Urban radio. "When You Tell Me You Love Me" would never have done that well at urban/black radio even if the album was selling like hot cakes. The next thing they come with some rather underwhelming mixes on "You're Gonna Love It" that were not even strong enough to make significant impact on the club chart. Quite simply put, "The Force Behind the Power" was waaaaaaay above Motown's capabilities of marketing. EMI, on the other hand, was not very skillful at marketing R&B music, but, they did know how to market at pop radio.

Legend has it when Diana played "The Force Behind the Power" for the EMI UK brass and staff, they got it right away. They customized a brilliant marketing campaign utilizing Diana's unique opportunity to do the entire 2nd half of the Royal Variety Performance for 1991. At the record retail chains, they created a special singles box for the CD single of "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" that marketed her forthcoming appearance on the Royal Variety show. Diana also did television promo ahead of the airing appearing on Des O'Connor, etc. She also had two sold out nights at Wembley Nov. 1990 before the full release. EMI wisely did a limited release of the album to capitalize on her Wembley appearances. "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" hit the top of the charts that Christmas 1991.

She then returned in the Summer of 1992, for the full "Here and Now" tour dates. She had an additional 4 sold out nights that time. That would be 6 Wembley appearances in 6 months. That spring, EMI released the title track which hit the Top 20. By summer in time for the full tour, "One Shining Moment" would sail into the Top 10. I happened to be in the EMI UK offices when it came on BBC Radio One. It seemed almost everyone in the EMI offices had the radio turned on! They were clearly excited that they had another hit.
I saw her at Wembley that June. At the opening chords of "Change of Heart", the audience cheered. They had already known it from its limited release that previous Nov/Dec. She also did a television special in Japan at the NK studios. On one of the UK television programs she was on, they presented her with a Gold album for "The Force Behind the Power" from EMI Japan. They had aired "Christmas in Vienna" in the UK that holiday and they released "If We Hold on Together". Behind that special airing, the single just missed the Top 10 and the album was certified Double Platinum.

She also had another concert special in Australia in Perth. "When You Tell Me" was a hit there and so was the album.

In the states, they released a brilliant remix of "Waiting in the Wings", only for it to linger pointlessly. The remix should have been ideal for Urban Adult radio and the Quiet Storm stations. I don't even think they were serviced with promo copies. Meanwhile, the "Here and Now" tour dates in the states did very well despite the fact that the album was not in the stores. BET had gave ample play to both videos "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" and "The Force Behind the Power". That visibility probably helped her sell out two nights at Chastain Park in strong urban markets like Atlanta.

EMI International would release "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind) and had one last Top 40 hit as the album closed in on 3.2 million album sales worldwide primarily from Europe, Japan and Australia. It sold like 150k in the states. Had she had that album to sell while she was touring in the states, she was getting standing ovations for songs the audience was unfamiliar with......she would have sold a lot of albums at the concession stands from the tour>

[drlorne]

Great information, Thanks,
Lorne

[jobeterob]

Bokilius has some great info. Thanks.

[Jimi LaLumia]

interesting...in hindsight,she should have sought out Clive Davis instead of returning to MOTOWN..
Davis, of Barry Manilow/Rod Stewart fame, would have pushed all the right buttons, a different version
of Berry Gordy..

[jobeterob]

It fell to 43 in the second week; Simon & Garfunkel's Greatest Hits fell too; pretty common.

[wichmanne]

The Greatest album falls to 43 on the UK Album chart this week.

You may also like to know that the album is Diana's 58th album to chart in the UK.

Only four artists have more charted albums in the UK.

[marv2]

No, closer to the truth was by 1991, Motown Records was a shell of itself. "The Force Behind the Power" was a pop record with soul shadings. As far as promotion goes, the last strain of influence that Motown had was reserved for Urban radio. "When You Tell Me You Love Me" would never have done that well at urban/black radio even if the album was selling like hot cakes. The next thing they come with some rather underwhelming mixes on "You're Gonna Love It" that were not even strong enough to make significant impact on the club chart. Quite simply put, "The Force Behind the Power" was waaaaaaay above Motown's capabilities of marketing. EMI, on the other hand, was not very skillful at marketing R&B music, but, they did know how to market at pop radio.

Legend has it when Diana played "The Force Behind the Power" for the EMI UK brass and staff, they got it right away. They customized a brilliant marketing campaign utilizing Diana's unique opportunity to do the entire 2nd half of the Royal Variety Performance for 1991. At the record retail chains, they created a special singles box for the CD single of "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" that marketed her forthcoming appearance on the Royal Variety show. Diana also did television promo ahead of the airing appearing on Des O'Connor, etc. She also had two sold out nights at Wembley Nov. 1990 before the full release. EMI wisely did a limited release of the album to capitalize on her Wembley appearances. "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" hit the top of the charts that Christmas 1991.

She then returned in the Summer of 1992, for the full "Here and Now" tour dates. She had an additional 4 sold out nights that time. That would be 6 Wembley appearances in 6 months. That spring, EMI released the title track which hit the Top 20. By summer in time for the full tour, "One Shining Moment" would sail into the Top 10. I happened to be in the EMI UK offices when it came on BBC Radio One. It seemed almost everyone in the EMI offices had the radio turned on! They were clearly excited that they had another hit.
I saw her at Wembley that June. At the opening chords of "Change of Heart", the audience cheered. They had already known it from its limited release that previous Nov/Dec. She also did a television special in Japan at the NK studios. On one of the UK television programs she was on, they presented her with a Gold album for "The Force Behind the Power" from EMI Japan. They had aired "Christmas in Vienna" in the UK that holiday and they released "If We Hold on Together". Behind that special airing, the single just missed the Top 10 and the album was certified Double Platinum.

She also had another concert special in Australia in Perth. "When You Tell Me" was a hit there and so was the album.

In the states, they released a brilliant remix of "Waiting in the Wings", only for it to linger pointlessly. The remix should have been ideal for Urban Adult radio and the Quiet Storm stations. I don't even think they were serviced with promo copies. Meanwhile, the "Here and Now" tour dates in the states did very well despite the fact that the album was not in the stores. BET had gave ample play to both videos "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" and "The Force Behind the Power". That visibility probably helped her sell out two nights at Chastain Park in strong urban markets like Atlanta.

EMI International would release "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind) and had one last Top 40 hit as the album closed in on 3.2 million album sales worldwide primarily from Europe, Japan and Australia. It sold like 150k in the states. Had she had that album to sell while she was touring in the states, she was getting standing ovations for songs the audience was unfamiliar with......she would have sold a lot of albums at the concession stands from the tour>

Reading this it's like we were living in two different Worlds, on two different planets. I have a friend, Toni that was working for Motown at that time in a regional sales & marketing capacity. I remember one day I ran into her when she was in town. She always gave us samples , promos of the latest upcoming releases for Motown. I remember her asking me to take the lastest Diana Ross CD "Force" listen to it and tell her what I thought. Also she wanted opinons on the cover artwork. I told her I would do that if she also gave me the newest BoyIIMen, Latifah's "U.N.I.T.Y" and a few other current acts at that time. I can remember making the comment that it did not look like Diana Ross on the cover. Other than that, Ross made an appearance on the "Arsenio Hall Show" , which one the most popular television programs in America at that time to promote her new CD. I do not know when it formally released because I never heard anything from it on radio at the time, so it sort of just came and went without anyone being the wiser. I should say most people knowing about it or hearing it. She may have even toured the U.S. with it, but it just didn't get any play on radio.

[marv2]

interesting...in hindsight,she should have sought out Clive Davis instead of returning to MOTOWN..
Davis, of Barry Manilow/Rod Stewart fame, would have pushed all the right buttons, a different version
of Berry Gordy..

I believe Clive Davis and Arista Records had Aretha and Dionne on their roster at the time and shortly thereafter, this little unknown girl singer out of Newark, NJ by the name of Whitney Houston.

[luke]

And many artists comment on how loyal fans from some other countries are-in the USA we are much more -on to the next thing. But I also think the US fans are often sharp. Some of Diana's stuff seemed so calculated-Workin Overtime-ridiculous for a singer like her, Force behind Power-intangible..what does that mean?? I Love You-MOR boredom. She needed over the top, hooky material and an in charge producer Plus I think her private personna caught up with her public personna.

[selinasian]

Well, I just think it's nice that she has charted, no matter how high or for how long, with this release.

[florence]

No, closer to the truth was by 1991, Motown Records was a shell of itself. "The Force Behind the Power" was a pop record with soul shadings. As far as promotion goes, the last strain of influence that Motown had was reserved for Urban radio. "When You Tell Me You Love Me" would never have done that well at urban/black radio even if the album was selling like hot cakes. The next thing they come with some rather underwhelming mixes on "You're Gonna Love It" that were not even strong enough to make significant impact on the club chart. Quite simply put, "The Force Behind the Power" was waaaaaaay above Motown's capabilities of marketing. EMI, on the other hand, was not very skillful at marketing R&B music, but, they did know how to market at pop radio.

Legend has it when Diana played "The Force Behind the Power" for the EMI UK brass and staff, they got it right away. They customized a brilliant marketing campaign utilizing Diana's unique opportunity to do the entire 2nd half of the Royal Variety Performance for 1991. At the record retail chains, they created a special singles box for the CD single of "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" that marketed her forthcoming appearance on the Royal Variety show. Diana also did television promo ahead of the airing appearing on Des O'Connor, etc. She also had two sold out nights at Wembley Nov. 1990 before the full release. EMI wisely did a limited release of the album to capitalize on her Wembley appearances. "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" hit the top of the charts that Christmas 1991.

She then returned in the Summer of 1992, for the full "Here and Now" tour dates. She had an additional 4 sold out nights that time. That would be 6 Wembley appearances in 6 months. That spring, EMI released the title track which hit the Top 20. By summer in time for the full tour, "One Shining Moment" would sail into the Top 10. I happened to be in the EMI UK offices when it came on BBC Radio One. It seemed almost everyone in the EMI offices had the radio turned on! They were clearly excited that they had another hit.
I saw her at Wembley that June. At the opening chords of "Change of Heart", the audience cheered. They had already known it from its limited release that previous Nov/Dec. She also did a television special in Japan at the NK studios. On one of the UK television programs she was on, they presented her with a Gold album for "The Force Behind the Power" from EMI Japan. They had aired "Christmas in Vienna" in the UK that holiday and they released "If We Hold on Together". Behind that special airing, the single just missed the Top 10 and the album was certified Double Platinum.

She also had another concert special in Australia in Perth. "When You Tell Me" was a hit there and so was the album.

In the states, they released a brilliant remix of "Waiting in the Wings", only for it to linger pointlessly. The remix should have been ideal for Urban Adult radio and the Quiet Storm stations. I don't even think they were serviced with promo copies. Meanwhile, the "Here and Now" tour dates in the states did very well despite the fact that the album was not in the stores. BET had gave ample play to both videos "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" and "The Force Behind the Power". That visibility probably helped her sell out two nights at Chastain Park in strong urban markets like Atlanta.

EMI International would release "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind) and had one last Top 40 hit as the album closed in on 3.2 million album sales worldwide primarily from Europe, Japan and Australia. It sold like 150k in the states. Had she had that album to sell while she was touring in the states, she was getting standing ovations for songs the audience was unfamiliar with......she would have sold a lot of albums at the concession stands from the tour>

I can actually remember that special singles box of When You Tell Me.... sitting on the counter of my local record shop. A brilliant campaign indeed by EMI in the UK. It was really only the special circumstances of the death of Freddy Mercury which stopped Diana from going the extra 1 place to #1.

One Shining Moment was one of those many good LP tacks which, especially in the 70s, could be pulled from a Diana album and sail into the top 40.

It was great that the track continued to give Diana a high profile by making the top 10, however in some ways that was a disappointment given that she was touring and performed the record on Top of the Pops. It sold less than 90k though.

The Force Behind The Power was a good seller over both 1991 and 1992 in the UK finishing as the 51st best selling album both years - it also sold reasonably in 1993 giving total sales over 500k. It may very well have eventually sold 600k however there is no record of it ever being certified double platinum. [[300k is the level for a platinum album in the UK).