Why Did Mary Wilson's Solo Career Not Take Off?

[jobeterob]

Taken from the Main Forum.......the same thread about Nona Hendryx?

And why did Florence Ballard's not take off?

A big one was the mediocre initial albums. If Mary had got Love Hangover, Holiday or Don't Leave Me This Way, it could have been different.

Poor management.

Lack of promotion and commitment to someone that perhaps they didn't have a lot of faith in.

[BobC]

I can answer this one. Number one, the material on Mary's first album was extremely weak. Two, if you perpetually instigate litigation against the same label that is representing you, then you have to expect that they won't exactly go all out promoting you. Three, although Mary eventually got her voice back--for a while there the chain-smoking of cigarettes was coming through loud and clear. Four, Mary should have changed her name as Diane did, to something catchier. People constantly confused her with Mary Wells.

Florence's one solo record was extremely weak in terms of material and I frankly liked her voice better in the background.

[BayouMotownMan]

Wow, the fur is going to fly on this one

[marv2]

Taken from the Main Forum.......the same thread about Nona Hendryx?

And why did Florence Ballard's not take off?

A big one was the mediocre initial albums. If Mary had got Love Hangover, Holiday or Don't Leave Me This Way, it could have been different.

Poor management.

Lack of promotion and commitment to someone that perhaps they didn't have a lot of faith in.

You'll have to wait until she comes off tour to ask her!

[motony]

Well, Florences didn't take off for obvious reasons, inferior recordings production wise form "ex" Motown connected people and big distributors were probably asked if they wanted to keep the Motown line or distribute Florence Ballards records. I think Mary Wilsons solo career has been pretty good as far as LIVE dates go.I think it is usually detrimental to most female singers to have their husbands "manage" their career esp. when he is not known in the music biz circles as a professional manager.

[luke]

LOL Marv-u gotta laugh!

[marv2]

LOL Marv-u gotta laugh!

You just gotta! LOL!!!!

[BayouMotownMan]

I think it safe to say that both Mary and Florence were "branded" as background singers which carries the stigma, unjustly of course, that they were not as good a singer as the lead vocalist. If you have purchased the new More Hits CD on disk two one can hear that Flo had a really great voice. Mary's vocals are softer and more sensuous but doesn't lend itself to as much diversity as most female vocalists. Mary excels on ballads and jazz material, none of which were in demand at the time she tried to launch a solo career. Flo's career was sabotaged moreso by her reputation than anything Motown could have done. Surely Motown strong-armed radio stations into not playing her product just as they had done Mary Wells before her. They had that kind of power in the 60s.

Actually I like Mary's solo Motown album. Warm Summer Night remains one of my favorites

[redlabs]

Warm Summer Nights was a good track. i think Mary didnt know who Mary Wilson was as a singer. she saw herself as a supreme and never knew what to do with herself but sing other artists hits. it wasnt until she recorded her second solo album that she started to find material better suited to her. i like her song U.
bottom line, she didnt do her homework.

[BobC]

I sort of liked that song and "Pick Up the Pieces"--but other than that, yuck. I loved her "Walk the Line" record. The difference between her voice on the first one and WTL is enormous.

I have to say I find Mary, as a vocalist, kind of frustrating. I found her vocals on the "Mary Wilson" to be really weak, but just a year later she was amazing on "You Dance My Hear Around the Stars." Maybe the reason DR went on to become a bigger star was because she [[DR) was always consistent--at least post 1964 and prior to the 200's. I also think Mary at times stretched for notes that were beyond her even when she sounded fine in a lower register. Don't get me wrong, I love Mary's voice but I don't think she had a lot of discipline.

[bradsupremes]

Mary's voice has really grown since the Supremes disbanded in 1977. I always felt she never really had the right material. Her recent Upclose jazz show is perfect for her. Her versions of "New York State of Mind" and "Here's To Life" are incredible. That's just the kind of material she is best at.

Even though her solo career didn't really take off, Mary has had a really successful career after the Supremes. Maybe not so much in terms of hit records or selling out arenas, but for a woman who sang background vocals in a girl group that hit their peak over 40 years ago, yet is still getting booked all across the country and worldwide, I would say that is pretty damn successful!

[BobC]

I agree, Brad. Mary is a survivor.

[carlo]

Even though her solo career didn't really take off, Mary has had a really successful career after the Supremes. Maybe not so much in terms of hit records or selling out arenas, but for a woman who sang background vocals in a girl group that hit their peak over 40 years ago, yet is still getting booked all across the country and worldwide, I would say that is pretty damn successful! [/FONT]

I agree. Whenever I've had conversations about The Supremes with others, most people have always had nothing but good things to say about Mary. People I have talked to have described her as a survivor and powerhouse. I've also always said this to those Ross fans who dislike her...your opinion would totally change if you ever met her. I guarantee it. It really is impossible not to like her because she's so sweet and down to earth. I can think of two members on this forum who used to dislike Mary and have had recent interactions with her...and they've been converted.

[RossHolloway]

I've always loved Mary Wilson as a singer from the early songs to where she is now as a singer. I've always found it strange that she didn't leave Motown after the Supreme's disbanded. If Motown and the powers that be didn't do right by the Supreme's at the end of their run, then why did Mary think that Motown would get behind her solo career? I'm not sure what her options were after 1977 in terms of landing a recording contract away from Motown, but I think Mary really needed a label that would have nurtured her talent and taken its time to find the right niche/market for her and her voice. To help to reinvent her as a singer and break her out of the Supreme/background singer mode. But I suppose what happened to Mary wasn't that unusual. I mean what other singer principally known for their backgroud work really had a outstanding solo career? None of the Vandellas, Marvelettes, Velvelettes, Miracles, Tops or Temptation background singers had a solo career. So by those standards and measures, Mary has done very well for herself.

[Roberta75]

Mary Wilson is a great jazz singer and a very powerful balladeer. She's outlasted most background singers and can command a stage. She was also an original Supreme and for that alone she will always have my respect and love.

Roberta

[milven]

... I mean what other singer principally known for their background work really had a outstanding solo career? None of the Vandellas, Marvelettes, Velvelettes, Miracles, Tops or Temptation background singers had a solo career. So by those standards and measures, Mary has done very well for herself.

I wish others would have this attitude instead of comparing Diana and Mary. They have had two different careers, but each career was successful.

[BayouMotownMan]

Well, as I recall, Mary had few to no options. She stayed on and fought for the Supremes mainly for this reason. She likely thought when Diana left that she too could use the Supremes to launch a solo career as well. Jean also thought this. Soon both ladies found out that Motown only had room for one successful Supreme.

By the time the Supremes disbanded Mary Wilson was 33 years old. She shopped herself heavily to other labels with no response. Thus she settled her lawsuit with Motown and signed on as a soloist with them. By her own admission, they offered that contract to get her to drop her lawsuit.

It's a shame because any lady to have been blessed to be a Supreme should have had solo success guaranteed. But, politics are what they are. Jean Terrell was wasted, what an incredible talent. Scherrie was able to maintain mostly in small venues until she formed the FLOs

[Glenpwood]

There's a lot to take into consideration with this subject...

As cold as this sounds but this applies to any artist: DONT SUE YOUR RECORD LABEL THEN EXPECT THEM TO FIND YOU HIT SONGS AND MARKET THEM TO PLATINUM STATUS. The only artist I can think of from that period that succeeded after suing their label was Olivia Newton John but it took a drastic image change and a starring role in Grease to turn her career around. I'm not saying Motown did no wrong with Mary while she was a Supreme but remember her solo deal was a settlement to get her to drop a lawsuit against them. If the contingency of the agreement had been we can stop the suit if you get me a gold album that might have helped. There was also Pedro still in the mix as manager who according to most accounts I've read was more about ambition and demands than skill at his job so he didn't possess the tools to get Mary the right appearances and media attention. She did work with Hal Davis on the first album who did have a hit touch but by the time the album streeted the Disco Sucks backlash had begun and people were blowing up their records at baseball games so even with strong marketing it probably wouldn't have gotten far. I've never heard the bootlegs of the initial sessions for album two that Motown rejected before dropping her but Mary describes them as having a rockier Tina Turner approach which fits in with the whole Rock or New Wave sound that came next so she was again being malleable to the then current marketplace. I think the stigma of the whole lawsuit might have been in the back of record executives minds when Mary shopped for a new deal. The record industry's ageism also came into play by this point since artists traditionally hit 40 then stop having major hits and won't even consider signing most veterans. She should have agreed to Motown's proposal of a Scherrie/Cindy/Mary reunion and used any positive buzz to get the solo career going again but she had Dreamgirl underway and probably believed the success of that would be enough to get a new deal instead.

In closing, Mary Wilson has been filling concert halls for decades now as a solo and been successful as an author, radio personality, actress, and humanitarian. The record sales may not have been there to match but she has had a great career and survived and thrived. The people who enjoy bashing the post Supremes career beause they didn't have a string of gold records and 12 number one singles need to realize all the ladies accomplished great feats that made some folks parameters of success irrelevent to them....

[BobC]

I said practically the same thing, Glenn. How do you sue someone and then expect them to promote you? It's crazy. I understand why Mary was unhappy, but suing Motown was not wise IMO. I do video games for a living and I have seen many people get passed over for jobs because they were known to have sued video game companies. If you get that rep, you never lose it. If thing's start going south at a job, you are better off just saying "no harm, no foul" and moving on.

[stephanie]

Didnt Mary learn from Herman Griffing and Mary Wells? Flo and Tommy? I really cant blame Mary though because she was being abused at the time and Pedro was making her the center of attention so she got caught up in it. Who is another one Suzanne Sommers and her husband and the Threes Company drama. I dont know why women let their husbands who dont have as much experience as they do let them get caught up in this stuff it happens everyday. Again Mary is one of the most successful background singers out there and she has branded herself so I have to give her credit she is a survivor.

[BayouMotownMan]

Excellent posts everyone and some welcomed objectives

About a Mary-Scherrie-Cindy reunion, Mary only nixed it when she spoke to Berry Gordy and he clearly had no enthusiasm for this project. This came on the heels of a very successful Temptations reunion in 1982, but that tour gave Motown a boatload of headaches, dealing with egos, chemical abuse and hard feelings. Ruffin didn't show for some performances and I seem to remember that Kendricks and Leonard boycotted some. The other problem with this particular Supremes reunion was that this grouping had no hit records and the public was unfamiliar with them largely and the ones who were numbered quite small. Cindy had stopped performing years earlier and there was that to consider.

Mary's unreleased second lp tracks are actually quite good. She rocks Green River and has a beautiful ballad, You Danced My Heart Around The Stars. Love Talk was also very commercial. If Motown had maybe given her one more chance.....

In reality Motown was finished with Mary while she was still with the Supremes. She trusted the wrong people, namely her husband.

[jobeterob]

These are excellent posts and an excellent discussion.

I agree with all those that have said in recent years she has developed her act and kept working and kept performing when most of her colleagues from the 60's hang up the shingle years ago; and that is successful.

I wonder if she would have had a better chance if she had exited the Supremes about 1973; if she had the confidence with the voice that she now has and had got out a little bit earlier, with no Pedro and no squabbling with Motown - maybe she could have done a Kelly Rowland type of career.

It's also true that as background singers go, she is probably as successful as any background singer ever was.

[Roberta75]

These are excellent posts and an excellent discussion.

I agree with all those that have said in recent years she has developed her act and kept working and kept performing when most of her colleagues from the 60's hang up the shingle years ago; and that is successful.

I wonder if she would have had a better chance if she had exited the Supremes about 1973; if she had the confidence with the voice that she now has and had got out a little bit earlier, with no Pedro and no squabbling with Motown - maybe she could have done a Kelly Rowland type of career.

It's also true that as background singers go, she is probably as successful as any background singer ever was.

And isn't it nice that we had a very constructive conversation without nastiness and name calling.

Thank you everyone.

Roberta

[jillfoster]

I know this may sound strange to some... but I also believe that Motown didn't want to deal with Pedro at the time, because nobody could barely understand a word he said. I was totally shocked when I heard him talk, and to find it was easier to understand CHARO. that, and him being a gigolo probably made him a laughing stock. But I wouldn't say Mary is in any way unsuccessful, having the top selling Rock and roll Autobiography of all time is pretty decent, and the woman ain't exactly living under a bridge. and sh'd be in alot BETTER shape had she not pissed a ton of money away on bullshit.

[marv2]

I know this may sound strange to some... but I also believe that Motown didn't want to deal with Pedro at the time, because nobody could barely understand a word he said. I was totally shocked when I heard him talk, and to find it was easier to understand CHARO. that, and him being a gigolo probably made him a laughing stock. But I wouldn't say Mary is in any way unsuccessful, having the top selling Rock and roll Autobiography of all time is pretty decent, and the woman ain't exactly living under a bridge. and sh'd be in alot BETTER shape had she not pissed a ton of money away on bullshit.

That is true about the millions spent that she didn't really have to, but she's been making money hand over fist for years now.

[Jimi LaLumia]

just curious..what was the spending spree for?...mine is usually on all these Hio-O re issues...lol..

[jillfoster]

Yeah, Marv... definately ageed. I also think Mary's career at Motown would have stayed around well into the 80's if she had dumped PEDRO in 1976, instead of Cindy. Mary, Scherrie and Cindy could have recorded and toured well into the 80's, because I don't think Motown would have had the NERVE to dump the Supremes while Diana was still around. After she had went to RCA, who knows... But Gordy dumping the Supremes would have a been a PR nightmare. If Mary had kept the group together, it would have been able to stand among the politics of Motown. And High Energy was a top 40 album with a top 40 hit on it just a year before the group disbanded, so there was still possibility there, Mary just gave up on the group too soon. I think most of it was Pedro was pushing her because going solo meant not having to split the money three ways, and he wanted more aorund to SPEND. He however, underestimated the earning power of the name SUPREMES, and the rest is history.

[carlo]

I know this may sound strange to some... but I also believe that Motown didn't want to deal with Pedro at the time, because nobody could barely understand a word he said. I was totally shocked when I heard him talk, and to find it was easier to understand CHARO.

lol. Where did you hear him speak? Is there a recording out there?

[carlo]

Yeah, Marv... definately ageed. I also think Mary's career at Motown would have stayed around well into the 80's if she had dumped PEDRO in 1976, instead of Cindy. Mary, Scherrie and Cindy could have recorded and toured well into the 80's, because I don't think Motown would have had the NERVE to dump the Supremes while Diana was still around. After she had went to RCA, who knows... But Gordy dumping the Supremes would have a been a PR nightmare. If Mary had kept the group together, it would have been able to stand among the politics of Motown. And High Energy was a top 40 album with a top 40 hit on it just a year before the group disbanded, so there was still possibility there, Mary just gave up on the group too soon. I think most of it was Pedro was pushing her because going solo meant not having to split the money three ways, and he wanted more aorund to SPEND. He however, underestimated the earning power of the name SUPREMES, and the rest is history.

Good points, Jill. The Supremes self-destructed. If they could have stuck it out a little longer, I think things would have went well for the group. As you say, the name Supremes has always had big marketing value. I think Scherrie and Susaye brought new life into the group. They could have went in some really interesting directions, had Scherrie and Susaye been able to take on the roles as writers/producers. With the success of the Pointer Sisters in the 80's, I've always thought that just maybe they could have done just as well...but I guess we can discuss the "what if's" until the cows come home.

[jillfoster]

lol. Where did you hear him speak? Is there a recording out there?

I have a recording from a 1975 radio station interview where he talks.... It was September 1975. I think Randy Taraborelli talks on it, too.

[marv2]

just curious..what was the spending spree for?...mine is usually on all these Hio-O re issues...lol..

Jimi you are so funny sometimes, hehehehehehe! Seriously though there was a time back in '80 and 90's where Mary seemed to be suing EVERYBODY! LOL!

[marv2]

lol. Where did you hear him speak? Is there a recording out there?

Carlo, the first time I spoke to him I was a teenager on the phone. It was pretty rough, but he's gotten much better since then. Not how Jill is saying. I would try to mimic him but I don't how to do that typing! LOL!!!!!

[carlo]

lol. I would love to hear this radio interview if possible.

[marv2]

Good points, Jill. The Supremes self-destructed. If they could have stuck it out a little longer, I think things would have went well for the group. As you say, the name Supremes has always had big marketing value. I think Scherrie and Susaye brought new life into the group. They could have went in some really interesting directions, had Scherrie and Susaye been able to take on the roles as writers/producers. With the success of the Pointer Sisters in the 80's, I've always thought that just maybe they could have done just as well...but I guess we can discuss the "what if's" until the cows come home.

I always thought that grouping of Supremes should have had their own TV Show like Tony Orland & Dawn, etc. Any of you remember Gladys Knight & the Pips television show? It was a summer replacement show I think during the summer of '75.

[marv2]

lol. I would love to hear this radio interview if possible.

That would be great to hear now.

[marv2]

Yeah, Marv... definately ageed. I also think Mary's career at Motown would have stayed around well into the 80's if she had dumped PEDRO in 1976, instead of Cindy. Mary, Scherrie and Cindy could have recorded and toured well into the 80's, because I don't think Motown would have had the NERVE to dump the Supremes while Diana was still around. After she had went to RCA, who knows... But Gordy dumping the Supremes would have a been a PR nightmare. If Mary had kept the group together, it would have been able to stand among the politics of Motown. And High Energy was a top 40 album with a top 40 hit on it just a year before the group disbanded, so there was still possibility there, Mary just gave up on the group too soon. I think most of it was Pedro was pushing her because going solo meant not having to split the money three ways, and he wanted more aorund to SPEND. He however, underestimated the earning power of the name SUPREMES, and the rest is history.

Very good post Jill. You said some things that I remember very clearly.

[milven]

I always thought that grouping of Supremes should have had their own TV Show like Tony Orland & Dawn, etc. Any of you remember Gladys Knight & the Pips television show? It was a summer replacement show I think during the summer of '75.

I remember it. Around 1974 or 1975. I think it was a summer replacement show because it was only on for four or five weeks. These short summer shows were popular back then [[Melba, Ben Vereen, Clifton Davis, I think the Jackson 5 too) I remember wishing that they would have made a show for the Supremes. I dared to dream.

[BayouMotownMan]

Jill is completely correct. Pedro did immeasurable damage to the Supremes.

One of the worst decisions was setting the group up to tour S. Africa. Everybody, fans, celebs, begged then not to go. It turned into a nightmare situation.

Then there was that ill-advised MSG booking. Yikes

[REDHOT]

What happen to The Supremes[[Mary Cindy Scherrie)TV Special, Live In Japan? I think it was around 1974,maybe ABC.
Please stay positive

[BayouMotownMan]

All Mary ever said was that the project was cancelled at the last minute. Likely Motown did not want this to air as Scherrie Payne was still not under contract to Motown yet.

[jobeterob]

Billboard covered both the South Africa tour and the MSG Concert. And they covered it in just the most basic way.

The South Africa concert did enormous damage; I remember I could not understand why they were over there. It seemed like they were doing it for the money and everything else be damned. And there was never any explanation at the time ~ just silence. Proper management would have put out some damage control and tried to explain it; but there was never a word; just the implication of a sellout for money.

And MSG ~ well, by then, it didn't matter. It was just very hurtful and another mistake.

[BayouMotownMan]

It really was. They wound up being asked to leave. It should never have happened

[forexforex]

And MSG ~ well, by then, it didn't matter. It was just very hurtful and another mistake.

What was bad about MSG?

[blueskies]

Why Did Mary Wilson's Solo Career Not Take Off?

Cause she had to compete with the indomitable Shantel Baker.
By the way....what was an MSG concert that didn't go well with The Supremes?

[BayouMotownMan]

Mary, Scherrie and Susaye were booked at MSG in early 1977 to headline an oldies concert. In the audience were bikers, truck drivers, etc, coming to see acts like Dion and the Belmonts and the Supremes. The ladies came onstage dressed in their disco garb with facepaints and launched into their disco music. By the fourth song the crowd was so unruly that the ladies had to exit amongst boos, jeers, cups flying at them, cursing, etc., that they were forced offstage for their own safety. It was humiliating. Days later Mary announced she was leaving the group.

[Roberta75]

Mary, Scherrie and Susaye were booked at MSG in early 1977 to headline an oldies concert. In the audience were bikers, truck drivers, etc, coming to see acts like Dion and the Belmonts and the Supremes. The ladies came onstage dressed in their disco garb with facepaints and launched into their disco music. By the fourth song the crowd was so unruly that the ladies had to exit amongst boos, jeers, cups flying at them, cursing, etc., that they were forced offstage for their own safety. It was humiliating. Days later Mary announced she was leaving the group.

I had no idea Mary decided to leave the group just after the MSG concert. Wow!!! You do learn stuff every day.

Roberta

[smark21]

All Mary ever said was that the project was cancelled at the last minute. Likely Motown did not want this to air as Scherrie Payne was still not under contract to Motown yet.

I've seen clips of that show on youtube.

[milven]

Mary, Scherrie and Susaye were booked at MSG in early 1977 to headline an oldies concert. In the audience were bikers, truck drivers, etc, coming to see acts like Dion and the Belmonts and the Supremes. The ladies came onstage dressed in their disco garb with facepaints and launched into their disco music. By the fourth song the crowd was so unruly that the ladies had to exit amongst boos, jeers, cups flying at them, cursing, etc., that they were forced offstage for their own safety. It was humiliating. Days later Mary announced she was leaving the group.

Here is a clip of Mary telling about her most embarrassing moment, which was this performance at MSG

[milven]

What happen to The Supremes[[Mary Cindy Scherrie)TV Special, Live In Japan? I think it was around 1974,maybe ABC.
Please stay positive

It was broadcast on Japanese TV and there are copies of it complete with japanese commercials

[BayouMotownMan]

It was basically the same show that was performed with Lynda and Jean the previous year, a couple changes here and there. I think Touch was put back in