If "Someday" failed.....

[marybrewster]

The story goes that Motown/Berry wanted to send Diana and the Supremes off on a high note; they needed that elusive Number One hit.

If "Someday" would have failed, was there a backup plan for another single that might hit? Would Diana and the Supremes [[or the Andantes?) have gone back into the studio to record another single/LP? What direction, musically, would DRATS have gone? I can't see Diana in the same style as Jean, so I'm doubtful songs like "Ladder" and "EGTRTL" would have made it on to Diana's plate. Maybe Diana would have just gone solo anyway?

[marv2]

I don't know about all that, but I have heard that if the Ross solo career fizzled early on, there was a back up plan to put her back into the Supremes.

[captainjames]

I am not sure where you heard this plan to put Diana back into the Supremes because Berry had laid a roadmap for her career almost from the beginning and it was to include movies and at one time broadway. The big screen was his ultimate goal and dream. Now I am not sure if he would have lifted her from the group without another hit record if Someday failed but, keep in mind, it was being pushed as Diana swan song from the group so there was not a lot of turnng back after this. Berry was going to make sure "Someday" was a hit if he had to go and buy a million copies himself.

[captainjames]

.............and how fitting "Someday" was as Diana final Supreme number. I would hate to think that Diana left on "No Matter What Sign You Are". Although, I am not exact to the true last song I like to think "Forever Came Today" was Flo last number and "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" as Mary final song.

[RossHolloway]

I've always thought Ain't No Mountain High Enough with DMC would have been a great swan song

[skooldem1]

Diana said that when she made the decision to leave, there was no going back. She wasn't going to change her mind and want back in. She had to live with the decision she made.

[nomis]

Diana wanted out and she wasnt even speaking to Mary and Cindy in those final months - all three have confirmed it in interviews and books.If they hadnt found Someday I think Berry would have pulled her out of the group anyway,She was deeply,deeply unhappy in The Supremes.
Aint No Monutain would have worked as a great final song,Funny how Berry wasnt keen on it as a single or Reach out either.I cant see Diana going back to The Supremes if the hits didnt come,But anythings possible at Motown! Berry had wanted her solo as early as '66 but Diana held back -but 69 she was over it,she felt betrayed by Mary and Cindy and they felt the same to her,ny all accounts it wasnt a healthy atmosphere at all and any problem Diana had became Berrys.In his mind she was a solo star already as the Supremes didnt sing on any of the singles since In and Out of Love [[not including The tempation duets).
I dont know if Flo sang on Forever - the logs for this track are missing information the 2000 box set left the question open,we only have Turners account that Flo was adamant she sang on the track,I believe Turners story is true that Flo believed she sang on it- but the log information for the session dosent explain the mystery.

[ExGuyParis]

Diana wanted out and she wasnt even speaking to Mary and Cindy in those final months - all three have confirmed it in interviews and books.If they hadnt found Someday I think Berry would have pulled her out of the group anyway,She was deeply,deeply unhappy in The Supremes.

I think I remember reading once upon a time that Someday was intended to be a solo Ross record [[as recorded, with the Andantes) but the last few Supremes singles failed to peak... so it became a Supremes song.

The last time I saw D & the Supremes at the Latin Casino, I talked with Cindy and Mary after the show, and it was clear they were unhappy in the Supremes as well. They told me that Diana & Berry were staying in a different hotel, and they were angry about that... and the Cindy & Mary were no longer sharing a dressing room with Diana. There was no clue about those emotions during the performance, though!

[jeff9nyc]

I think I remember reading once upon a time that Someday was intended to be a solo Ross record [[as recorded, with the Andantes) but the last few Supremes singles failed to peak... so it became a Supremes song.

The last time I saw D & the Supremes at the Latin Casino, I talked with Cindy and Mary after the show, and it was clear they were unhappy in the Supremes as well. They told me that Diana & Berry were staying in a different hotel, and they were angry about that... and the Cindy & Mary were no longer sharing a dressing room with Diana. There was no clue about those emotions during the performance, though!

I've ben luck enough to have been around to see [[or not see) The Supremes at some very interesting times in their history. The first was at the Latin Casino in March of '67, the week "The Happening" was released. One of the last gigs before Flo left.[[There are pictures of Flo and her boyfriend at the Rickshaw Inn in Peter Benjamin's book from that gig.) The next time was August '67 at Steel Pier, one of the first gigs with Cindy. [[The gig that ExGuyParis posted pictures from in the gold gowns.) The in June of '68, I was going to see them at the Latin Casino as a birthday gift, but Diana's dogs ate poison in the dressing room 2 nights before I was to go and they canceled the gig. I was beyond devastated. I kept thinking she would come back. I kept wondering if I was dreaming. I hard time for a 14 year old who lived for his "girls."

[jeff9nyc]

Ooops...before your write, the last gig I was scheduled to see was in June of '69, not '68. That's the one ExGuyParis is referring to also. Can't believe we never ran into each other being at so many of the same gigs. I was also at Madison Square Garden during THAT gig in '77. I couldn't believe what I was witnessing. It was harsh to say the least.

[luke]

No way would Berry have let Diana leave Supremes without hit--he kept her in AFTER No Matter, Someday, Composer etc He wanted a hit even though she wanted to leave-Im sure for her sake-not Mary and Cindys. She would then start at the top. And Im sure there WAS a back up plan. Oh Miss Ross just wanted some solo experience for awhile and still may again and....He was very nervous when he had to beg people to come to fill up her first solo engagement and when the Supremes initially hit much bigger than Diana.

[nomis]

"Someday' was a solo Diana song anyway so technically its a moot point..

[bradsupremes]

Regarding "Forever Came Today," the instrumental track was recorded in LA in April 1967. No vocals were recorded until December. That would mean that there was no way that Florence could have sung on the track. There were two different background vocal tracks recorded. One was the "demo" version with one of the Andantes singing really deep - it appeared on the Japanese Greatest Hits Quad album. The other background vocal track is the one that we are all familiar with - the one used on the single and album. Both are the Andantes, no Supremes.

"These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" was planned as Diana's debut single, but was pushed back to a B-Side, then replaced and ended up being an album track. Interestingly enough, "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" was originally assigned for the Supremes to record. However, it was re-assigned to Diana a few days after the instrumental track was completed. With the growing success of "Someday We'll Be Together" by November 1969, I have a theory that "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" was originally intended to be the Supremes first single after Diana. With it's similarities to "Someday We'll Be Together," it would have served as transition from Diana to Jean while keeping Johnny Bristol's guide as a connection in both songs. However, someone at Motown [[most likely Berry) thought it would be a better idea for the song to be Diana's debut single and her transition from the Supremes to solo artist instead of the song being a transition of lead singers in the Supremes.

[nomis]

Thanks for clearing that up about "Forever" Brad.

[captainjames]

Lifting Diana from the SUPREMES was all about timing and when Berry felt comfortable enough to do it. Diana was miserable in the group up to the point where she said at the Frontier Hotel......"This Is It Gil" and breathed a sigh of relief. The whole point became a real big misunderstanding inside the group and they were not smart enough to sit down and talk it through. Berry could have really had two empires if he thought it through long enough. However, being a boss and feeling unappreciated for what he felt he had done made it a bit jagged. It's all good though because the real star as much as we like to down play it was Diana.

That being said in regard to The Supremes [[Andantes) swan song with Diana, I really thought it would have been "Love Child". No matter how you slice it that song is a Diana Ross solo song too. However, as I said before I think Berry was still going for the face/name recognition thing and so came specials like TCB and GIT. Berry was not dumb in what and where he was going with Motown and Diana and that can not be argued by the history of a little black owned company from the streets of Detroit.

If Berry thought and knew how to take the Temptations, The Supremes, The Marvelettes, Martha and the Vandellas, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, The Velvelettes, The Monitors, The Spinners, The Four Tops, The Elgins, Blinky, etc through that same train wreck he would have done it.

[daviddh]

also, after the departure of Florence and HDH, motown felt that the Supremes would not recover so REFLECTIONS was planned to be the last single [at that time] and Flo was going to be brought back for a farewell tour or shows. Diana didnt feel she was ready and she also felt an obligation to Mary wilson so she stayed until her contract with the supremes [january 13 1970] was completed. i dont think diana would have stayed one way or another. her contract was up .

[rubcale]

also, after the departure of Florence and HDH, motown felt that the Supremes would not recover so REFLECTIONS was planned to be the last single [at that time] and Flo was going to be brought back for a farewell tour or shows. Diana didnt feel she was ready and she also felt an obligation to Mary wilson so she stayed until her contract with the supremes [january 13 1970] was completed. i dont think diana would have stayed one way or another. her contract was up .

I thought it was "You Keep Me Hanging On?"

[daviddh]

i think the Supremes saga played out the way it should have. even if Flo would have stayed ,would things been different? i don't think it would have as HDH left a few months later and then Diana 2 years later. if you look at the Supremes as a whole and not a era or break them down into group members......they had a nice run ,...even though they were hit by several blows including the forementioned above. the group continued on during these difficult times and usually came out on top or near the top even with Jean Terrell in the 70s. even the loss of producer Frank Wilson the group bounced back with the Smokey lp a year later. it really wasnt until motown closed down the detroit location and moved everything to LA that things changed [1973].
i think things would have been the same no matter what or who.

[marv2]

Captainjames why do you keep saying it was the Andantes on "the Supremes swansong"? It was not. It was Maxine and Julia Waters, along with Johnny Bristol.

[captainjames]

Oh honestly I don't really care if it was The Waters, The Andantes, The Blackberries or Rocky and Bullwinkle. All I know is that it was not Flo, Mary and Cindy on those records.

[Livingallalone]

Oh honestly I don't really care if it was The Waters, The Andantes, The Blackberries or Rocky and Bullwinkle. All I know is that it was not Flo, Mary and Cindy on those records.

LOL now that made me laugh.....Rocky and Bullwinkle!!!!!!

[captainjames]

Here is Mary saying it is one of her favorite Supreme songs but "Diana's Swansong".

[marv2]

Just give credit where it is due.

[captainjames]

Ok sorry I will; here goes
The majority of the songs sung by The Supremes and Diana Ross and The Supremes were actually solos by Diana and didn't include any other Supreme. There ....credit given.

[ExGuyParis]

Sometimes I step back and ponder in amazement how a group that disbanded more than 40 years ago still prompts so much emotion! Then I dive right back in.

[1382hitsville]

In November 1969 Diana started recording with producer Bones Howe at the suggestion from Shelly Berger. Bones was very succesful with The Fifth Dimension, the thought was to go outside the company [[Motown) to do something completely different for Diana's first album. They recorded Time And Love, Stoney End, The Interim and Love's Lines, Angles and Rhymes. Diana and Berry weren't sure about this and we all know the first album was made by Ashford & Simpson [[they started recording for solo material also November 1969.

Jean later dubbed the vocals for Time And Love for the post Diana Supremes album Touch.

[marv2]

1382hitsville, yeah. Here's an interesting "duet", "comparison" of the two recordings you mentioned. Here's Jean/Supremes and Diana Ross singing "Time and Love".

[marv2]

Captainjames, you are giving out misinformation that can be easily disputed. If you don't want to be serious, then I will it here and go on.

[MissLish]

Captainjames, you are giving out misinformation that can be easily disputed. If you don't want to be serious, then I will it here and go on.

Taken seriously? Do you mean as seriously as you are taken marv2? You and your top secret Motown 50 special? When did it air?

[jonc]

Taken seriously? Do you mean as seriously as you are taken marv2? You and your top secret Motown 50 special? When did it air?

LMFAO. Or Marv2's trip to the "Albany Institute of History & Art" to see Mary's gown collection three weeks after it had left town. They ought to call him Lilac cause he can lie like hell.

[captainjames]

Misslish and Jonc------now that was Hilarious !!!!!

[sophisticated_soul]

It was NOT Rocky and Bullwinkle. That's and urban legend. It was Boris & Natasha! LOL!

[captainjames]

Oh shoot I forgot to put the link in
Here is Mary saying it is one of her favorite Supreme songs but "Diana's Swansong".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p058fsBrLjw

[marv2]

Wonderful clip Captainjames. I was in the audience that night when they filmed at Westbury. Sang it Mary!

[captainjames]

Then you should have heard her say it was "Diana's Swan Song"

[nomis]

Exguyparis - you asked a good question - why does it prompt so much emotion ? - i can only speak for myself but this is why i find The Supremes story so facinating - Take The Beatles - they were in chart terms,The Supremes only peer - every detail of their career has been written about in microscopic detail - not so The Supremes.
To me the Supremes is a big jigsaw puzzle of a story with facts only coming to light now,40 years on...
Ex guy you posted a picture of the Ice Capades ad from '67 - There has never been a listing of what they performed on this show and a few others - Americas biggest group on National TV and there is no public documentation of some apperances,As a historian that wets my appetite..
take the period we are talking about on this thread - the release of "Someday' -the girls appeared at this time on The Tonight show [[along with The palace & sullivan) - I assume they performed "Someday" on Carson show - but I dont know for sure -Ive never read a single line about anything to do with this important tv booking - no author has mentioned it,no one on this forum has ever answered questions Ive asked about it -Thats what keeps me interested in the story I believe that the collecting of data on their work,as opposed to the scandal,will reinforce just how important these ladies were to the civil rights movement...every time I learn something new about their work,however trivial,It teaches me that there is always something new to learn..aside from the great music thats what keeps me a fan...

[luke]

Time for ignore button--thanks Ralph! Pretty soon it will be total pleasure to read posts! Thanks for Waters info Marv. Mis-info becomes fact if not addressed. I wonder why the Waters were selected and not the Andantes?

[MissLish]

Time for ignore button--thanks Ralph! Pretty soon it will be total pleasure to read posts! Thanks for Waters info Marv. Mis-info becomes fact if not addressed. I wonder why the Waters were selected and not the Andantes?

Mis-information? Like Marv2's super secret Motown 50 special Luke? Is that what you meant, my darling? Miss Lish musta missed it. Now do tell, dear; did you enjoy it? Was it all that we had imagined it would be? If you don't mind, would you be kind enough to post a review? Apparently, Marv2 is still sworn to secrecy; he hasn't uttered a word about it since announcing it all those months ago.

[jonc]

Mis-information? Like Marv2's super secret Motown 50 special Luke? Is that what you meant, my darling? Miss Lish musta missed it. Now do tell, dear; did you enjoy it? Was it all that we had imagined it would be? If you don't mind, would you be kind enough to post a review? Apparently, Marv2 is still sworn to secrecy; he hasn't uttered a word about it since announcing it all those months ago.

I respectfully request that you PLEASE STAY POSITIVE Miss Lish. Marv2 is probably still editing his hush hush Motown Anniversary "network" TV Special and under a studio embargo. Another scenario could be that Marv2 may be holding back the special to air in conjunction with the upcoming Mary Wilson new CD. If Marv2 said he was working on a "Motown Anniversary "network" TV Special" then who are we to question him. I'm sure it will air in the not too distant future.

[marv2]

Luke, the ignore button is a wonderful tool! I employed it the day we moved over to the new forum, hehehehehe.....

You are welcome. They may have used the Waters because a portion of the record was done on the West Coast and they sound terrific! Singer-actress Merry Clayton mentioned that she is also on the background of "Someday We'll Be Together".

[pj1]

They may have used the Waters because a portion of the record was done on the West Coast and they sound terrific! Singer-actress Merry Clayton mentioned that she is also on the background of "Someday We'll Be Together".

Reading what has been revealed in recent years, the scenario takes a few right turns. Johnny Bristol: the MGM Collection states 'By 1969, Bristol was itching to parlay his gold-plated studio credentials into a return to the front line. :OK, now's a good time for Jackey and I to get started again" he told himself, " so I actually re-cut 'Someday We'll Be together for Jackey and I' Bristol and Beavers had, with Fuqua , originally written, recorded and released their version of the song on Tri-Phi in 1961. Eight years later, when the remake didn't pan out for them, Bristol took it to Junior Walker, looking for a follow-up to 'What Does It Take'. The saxman passed. Then Berry Gordy got wind of it. He said, according to Bristol, "Look, I hear this song for Diana Ross" Added Johnny, 'At the time, you didn't argue with him".
Whether the backgrounds were recorded for the Jackey and Johnny remake, Jr. Walker follow-up, or the Diana version [[originally earmarked to be her first solo single until Shelly Berger convinced Berry to release it as a Diana Ross & the Supremes single) has never been stated in this or other accounts of recent years. The Complete Motown Singles Collection: Vol9: 1969 lists the track as being recorded on June 13, 1969 and assigned to Junior Walker; additional recording dates unknown. The song was released on October 14, 1969.

[luke]

One of the Ikettes also said she was in background. Has Andy or anyone addressed this?

[marv2]

One of the Ikettes also said she was in background. Has Andy or anyone addressed this?

Luke, that would be Robbie Montgomery. I believe she told this to our KevGo during an interview he conducted with her some time back.

[marv2]

That would be a good question. It does sound like a small gospel choir on that song. It still sounded good when performed live with just Mary and Cindy doing the harmonies and responses. Andy, where are you? LOL!

[captainjames]

Misslish and Jonc let us chat offline ----

[MissLish]

Yes; lettuce..

[midnightman]

When it comes to the Supremes, Motown was in a mess trying to set things up. The Andantes probably weren't able to do the sessions so Berry or whoever was a Motown staffer got the Waters to do it. After "Someday", they became one of the most prolific vocal session groups of the '70s. They're the ones going soprano on Michael Jackson's [[or excuse me, the Jacksons') "Heartbreak Hotel" though technically only Michael [[and Tito) were featured on the song [[though the Jacksons are each credited for percussion).

I'm thinking Mary performs the song because it's what people associate with the Supremes. However, technically both "Love Child" and "Someday" are Diana solo records.

[nomis]

thanks midnightman I will re-listen to "heartbreak hotel" and see if I can spot them...

[captainjames]

Midnightman that was very well said !!!

[sup_fan]

i understand that people get upset when they learn mary, flo and/or cindy aren't on the records. in general i too would prefer them to be on them. however i do not consider Someday or Love Child Diana solo ventures. no record, no matter how good, is a hit w/o promotion. just look at most of the 70s sups material and you'll see what happens to great songs that don't get promotion. so even though M, C and F might not be on the vinyl, they more than did their share of promoting and pushing the material live, in interview and on tv.