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  1. #51
    Oddly while Mary Wilson is still singing "Someday", Diana has but all kept it from her set list since the '70s. I guess it's something we'll never fully understand but as long as the Supremes as a group can brag that it's their hit (as is "Love Child") then so be it.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    Midnightman I remember hearing back in the day that Berry put the so called "Clan" up in a hotel and told them not to come out until they had a hit record. Berry Gordy really wanted to lift Diana from the group bad. When "Love Child" took off I wonder why he changed his mind. In fact after listenting to that album I remember thinking...............hmmmmmm I don't hear a ot of Mary and Cindy on here.
    Maybe he hadn't found a suitable replacement yet.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I wonder if Chaka Khan got co-credit with the hits with Rufus... I think I'm sure she's credited with the hits alongside Rufus if that's the case with Diana Ross AND the Supremes. Weird.
    Were the earlier hits released under Rufus or Rufus featuring Chaka Khan? I'd think any thing released under "Rufus featuring", she would. In Diana's case, the Supremes are still credited with 12. Nothing really changed except for the fact that technically she is credited with 8. She doesn't claim it, and critics don't every quote this. But I did read this in Billboard a couple of years ago when they had made changes in how they tabulate things.

  4. #54
    A few years back Billboard re-did their credits and all "name" artists were credited with the #1's - but you had to be named on the record label.

    They still have this odd situation existing where "The Supremes" were listed on the label, get credit for the #1 or Top 10, but didn't actually sing on the record. Unless you start to include Marlene Barrow, the Andantes, the Waters, Rocky & Bullwinkle, Elegant Soul and John Lester as Supremes - and of course, we do! The Lord knows there were many Supremes.

  5. #55
    It was a telling moment in '93 when Diana told Oprah she didnt think Cindy was an "Official" supreme - yes there was many Supremes - but at that moment in her life Diana certainly didnt think there was...
    I remember the last time this subject came up on this forum (of should Cindy and Mary be credited for songs they didnt sing).
    I think some older members here believe that seeing as the girls lip synched and sang them in concert they belong to them...I used to think it was a deception on Gordys part to the public..but Ive mellowed now - Diana dosent ask for credit as a solo artist and Marv recently explained to me as for "Love Child" Mary and Cindy where not even asked to particapate in the recording..but I still stand by the point that if Flo had been still in the group there wouldnt be Diana solo "Supremes" hits -she would have never have put up with it she got extra vocals removed from "the Happening'..so she had strong opinions about extra voices on hits...

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    They may have used the Waters because a portion of the record was done on the West Coast and they sound terrific! Singer-actress Merry Clayton mentioned that she is also on the background of "Someday We'll Be Together".
    Reading what has been revealed in recent years, the scenario takes a few right turns. Johnny Bristol: the MGM Collection states 'By 1969, Bristol was itching to parlay his gold-plated studio credentials into a return to the front line. :OK, now's a good time for Jackey and I to get started again" he told himself, " so I actually re-cut 'Someday We'll Be together for Jackey and I' Bristol and Beavers had, with Fuqua , originally written, recorded and released their version of the song on Tri-Phi in 1961. Eight years later, when the remake didn't pan out for them, Bristol took it to Junior Walker, looking for a follow-up to 'What Does It Take'. The saxman passed. Then Berry Gordy got wind of it. He said, according to Bristol, "Look, I hear this song for Diana Ross" Added Johnny, 'At the time, you didn't argue with him".
    Whether the backgrounds were recorded for the Jackey and Johnny remake, Jr. Walker follow-up, or the Diana version (originally earmarked to be her first solo single until Shelly Berger convinced Berry to release it as a Diana Ross & the Supremes single) has never been stated in this or other accounts of recent years. The Complete Motown Singles Collection: Vol9: 1969 lists the track as being recorded on June 13, 1969 and assigned to Junior Walker; additional recording dates unknown. The song was released on October 14, 1969.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    and Marv recently explained to me as for "Love Child" Mary and Cindy where not even asked to particapate in the recording..but I still stand by the point that if Flo had been still in the group there wouldnt be Diana solo "Supremes" hits -she would have never have put up with it she got extra vocals removed from "the Happening'..so she had strong opinions about extra voices on hits...
    Mary Wilson revealed in 'DreamGirl My Life As A Supreme" that Berry had wanted she and Cindy to be on the new single (then not yet fully written) (Love Child). This was likely motivated by the decreasing chart position of the singles featuring the Andates in the background, 'Forever Came Today' and Nick Ashford & Valerie Simpson, 'Some Things You Never Get Used To' . However, Mary insisted that she needed a real vacation and left against Berry's wishes. She went to LA, found a home to buy in Hollywood Hills, spent time in Mexico with Duke Fakir (of the Four Tops) whose marriage had just ended, and then returned to Detroit. When she got back the single had already been recorded. It is said that although the production staff still wanted to invite Cindy to be on the recording, Berry nixed it, since Mary was unavailable.
    Flo wasn't as successful with 'In And Out Of Love' . She & Mary recorded their backgrounds on June 12, 1967, the same day that Diana recorded her lead. On Jun 13, 1967, the Andantes over-dubbbed their vocals on Mary & Flo's track.
    Last edited by pj1; 08-26-2010 at 11:40 PM.

  8. #58
    From "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme", Page 221 , paragraph 4........

    "I found my home, a large modern place in the Hollywood Hills, complete with pool and sauna, and we had a wonderful time in Mexico. I came back to Detroit refreshed and ready to get to work, only to find that they had gone ahead and recorded the new song without me. Berry had wanted a song written, so Pam Sawyer, R. Dean Taylor, Frank Wilson and Deke Richards had composed "Love Child". Although I was angry and hurt by being left out, I did like the song. Though it's storyline was not autobiographical for any of us, we knew girlfriends and relatives who had babies out of wedlock, and we knew what a hardship it was. "Love Child" was quite explicit, and the message was, I felt, important. It would be our only number-one record in 1968, and the first major hit I had not sung on. "

    The above is what was in Mary's book , verbatim! Just prior to the above paragraph, Mary and Berry were having a conversation about Mary wanting to go to LA to take care of some personal business and as a vacation and Berry is characterizing the situation in Detroit as one where they are getting ready to write and record a new single for the Supremes. Mary says that they didn't need her there while they were writing and that she would only be gone a week and couldn't they wait until she got back? So the facts are she did not refuse to record "Love Child" (the song didn't even have a name yet), they did it behind her back anyway! This all came out in the lawsuit of 1977! It should also be noted that in her original contract with Motown Records, Mary Wilson could not refuse to participate as a member of the Supremes ( i.e. recording sessions, performances, personal appearances,etc.) on the other hand Motown could not replace her legally in recording sessions, performances etc ,etc if she was not ill and physically able to work. Guess what? By Motown recording songs such as "Love Child " and "Someday We'll Be Together" without the services of Mary Wilson, they in fact did replace her on those recordings and they were in breach of contract! But that is just getting boggled down in more things we really don't need to know, right? LOL!

  9. #59
    Great post Marv,you told me the same thing the other week when I brought up Love Child,you expanded on more details here,very interesting...

  10. #60
    Nomis you are very welcome. What we cannot convey here is what was going on in Berry Gordy's mind at the time. He could be very cunning no doubt, however he was the BOSS and if he had said "Look Mary, I need you here in Detroit, postpone your trip to LA" she would not have liked it, but she would have done it, no doubt! Recording a Supremes record without the Supremes was meant to be a message directed at Mary and Cindy.

  11. #61
    Some additional food for thought regarding 'Love Child' - Prior to Marv's verbatim, Mary writes : 'Things were changing, and I felt like I was in limbo. I had no real home and felt that I needed to get away. I said to Berry ''I need a vacation- a real one. Not one of those little breaks you give us , where we still have to come in to record and do publicity. I've been working too hard.''
    "Mary, you had better work while you can " he replied in that paternal voice he liked to use. "There may come a day when you wish you had taken advantage of every working day offered to you."
    "But, Berry, I deserve a real vacation."
    "Mary, we're getting ready to write and record a new single. Don't you want to be on it? It could be important."
    " I'm going for only a week, and you know I have business on the West Coast. Can't you wait until I get back to record? I'm not a writer; you don't need me for that anyway."
    My arguments didn't seem to be working. Berry acted as if I were doing something foolish, but he knew that I knew that they didn't need me to write a song. This was just a game. I took time off and went to Los Angeles to take care of some details regarding my upcoming move there and then went to Acapulco. Duke's marriage had ended, so we decided to give it one more chance just to see if we could make things work.
    I found my home........ the first major hit I had not sung on."
    The Complete Motown Singles Collection Vol 8 sets the scene- Friday, September 13, 1968 R.Dean Taylor, Frank Wilson, Deke Richards, Pam Sawyer, Henry Cosby checked into Detroit's Pontchartrain Hotel and are told by Berry Gordy that they were not to leave until they had written the next million seller. After several ideas were tried and rejected Pam Sawyer introduced the child born out of wedlock theme. Frank Wilson relates that Berry Gordy dropped by and loved Pam's idea. Pam & R. Dean work on lyrics, Frank & R .Dean do chord structure and melody. On Tuesday, September 17, the song is completed and the participants rush straight to the studio for a 3 hour recording session for the basic track. Strings are recorded at Golden World on Wednesday. On Thursday, Syreeta records the demo lead and the Andantes the background vocals. Deke Richards recalls that at first Diana passed on the song but did in fact record a lead on Thursday. On Friday , September 20 , Diana returns to the studio and records additional lead vocals.
    Frank Wilson has stated " I thought we had Mary, Cindy and the Andantes on that record. If [Mary and Cindy] are not on it, it was because we were on a bullet train".
    It appears that the writers knew that they had come up with something special and wanted to get it out to the public as soon as possible.
    Last edited by pj1; 08-27-2010 at 01:24 AM.

  12. #62
    MissLish Guest
    Yes; lettuce..

  13. #63
    MissLish Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Time for ignore button--thanks Ralph! Pretty soon it will be total pleasure to read posts! Thanks for Waters info Marv. Mis-info becomes fact if not addressed. I wonder why the Waters were selected and not the Andantes?

    Mis-information? Like Marv2's super secret Motown 50 special Luke? Is that what you meant, my darling? Miss Lish musta missed it. Now do tell, dear; did you enjoy it? Was it all that we had imagined it would be? If you don't mind, would you be kind enough to post a review? Apparently, Marv2 is still sworn to secrecy; he hasn't uttered a word about it since announcing it all those months ago.
    Last edited by MissLish; 08-27-2010 at 08:15 AM.

  14. #64
    Diana is credited for 8 number ones because someone wrote in several years back to chart beat when Fred Bronson was running the column and pled the case they are solo records since Mary and Cindy are absent. Of course if there so willing to bend the rules they should credit Diana with 20 number ones since she had 12 as a Supremes, 5 solo, 1 with Lionel Richie and has 2 uncredited vocal turns (We Are The World & Mo Money Mo Problems). I do remember someone writing in after the switch and pointing out that Yesterday is technically a solo Paul McCartney song but they weren't willing to switch that....

  15. #65
    Someone asked whatever happened to the Supremes plaquette that was at the Frontier Hotel. That's a good question. I've been to Vegas several times and was at the Frontier in 1993-1994-1995 (somewhere around there). I searched high and low for that thing; couldn't find it. My guess? A fan "borrowed" it.

  16. #66
    jonc Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MissLish View Post
    Mis-information? Like Marv2's super secret Motown 50 special Luke? Is that what you meant, my darling? Miss Lish musta missed it. Now do tell, dear; did you enjoy it? Was it all that we had imagined it would be? If you don't mind, would you be kind enough to post a review? Apparently, Marv2 is still sworn to secrecy; he hasn't uttered a word about it since announcing it all those months ago.
    I respectfully request that you PLEASE STAY POSITIVE Miss Lish. Marv2 is probably still editing his hush hush Motown Anniversary "network" TV Special and under a studio embargo. Another scenario could be that Marv2 may be holding back the special to air in conjunction with the upcoming Mary Wilson new CD. If Marv2 said he was working on a "Motown Anniversary "network" TV Special" then who are we to question him. I'm sure it will air in the not too distant future.

  17. #67
    Jonc, you crack me up :-)

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by skooldem1 View Post
    Were the earlier hits released under Rufus or Rufus featuring Chaka Khan? I'd think any thing released under "Rufus featuring", she would. In Diana's case, the Supremes are still credited with 12. Nothing really changed except for the fact that technically she is credited with 8. She doesn't claim it, and critics don't every quote this. But I did read this in Billboard a couple of years ago when they had made changes in how they tabulate things.
    I think after 1974 everything they released was as "Rufus featuring Chaka Khan".

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenpwood View Post
    Diana is credited for 8 number ones because someone wrote in several years back to chart beat when Fred Bronson was running the column and pled the case they are solo records since Mary and Cindy are absent. Of course if there so willing to bend the rules they should credit Diana with 20 number ones since she had 12 as a Supremes, 5 solo, 1 with Lionel Richie and has 2 uncredited vocal turns (We Are The World & Mo Money Mo Problems). I do remember someone writing in after the switch and pointing out that Yesterday is technically a solo Paul McCartney song but they weren't willing to switch that....
    This change in their rules was in place. The rule was not changed for her. Again, it has nothing to do with who did or didn't sing in the background. Its all about billing. Hence the change.

  20. #70
    The Supremes' situation, IMHO, I don't think was as unique as some would make it out to be. You could say Motown overworked the Andantes in a way since they not only had to add backgrounds to the Supremes' works from 1967 to 1969 but they also were called on to overdub for the Marvelettes and the Vandellas though it's often debated the actual group members of the Marvelettes and Vandellas were on the same recordings though the latter-day Vandellas sung on the group's last two records before disbanding. We also gotta understand someone like Mary didn't wanna be pushed around while Diana Ross being the LEAD SINGER really had no choice in the matter. If Berry told her that he had discovered "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and figured Diana could turn it into a hit he would convince her to sing it and if Mary and Cindy weren't available he put anybody behind it and have Motown issue it as a Diana Ross and the Supremes single. Oddly sales for them didn't quite recover after the 1964-1967 heyday due to changing musical scenes and the exit of Holland-Dozier-Holland so they had to rely on creating their mainstream image while most of their records suffered when they were "Diana Ross & the Supremes". While "Love Child" was definitely intended for the Supremes, "Someday" almost never was. I think Shelly not only decided to use the song as the final "Supremes single" with Diana but also did it just in case if the record was released as a Diana solo single and it didn't do as well, it wouldn't have looked good in the press in terms of Diana's emerging solo career. People kinda overlooked the difficulty Motown had with establishing Diana as a solo artist to the public. That's why they added in extra stuff (discovering the Jackson 5, performing solo on variety specials, etc.) to boost her marketing wise.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    While "Love Child" was definitely intended for the Supremes, "Someday" almost never was. I think Shelly not only decided to use the song as the final "Supremes single" with Diana but also did it just in case if the record was released as a Diana solo single and it didn't do as well, it wouldn't have looked good in the press in terms of Diana's emerging solo career. People kinda overlooked the difficulty Motown had with establishing Diana as a solo artist to the public. That's why they added in extra stuff (discovering the Jackson 5, performing solo on variety specials, etc.) to boost her marketing wise.
    Shelly also added this little twist in the Complete Motown Singles Vol.9 :1969
    " During this time, Mr. Gordy, in his own little suite of offices across the street from our main office at 6464 Sunset Boulevard, played me 'Someday We'll Be Together' . He said it was Diana Ross's first solo single. 'My God' , I said, 'you can't put that out as her first single. That is a number one record! That story- 'Someday We'll Be Together'- don't you want the Supremes to go out on a number one record?'
    'But its not a Supremes record ', he said. 'Johnny Bristol's on it....' I reminded Berry it's a Supremes record if we say its a Supremes record.
    'Well what are we gonna do with Diana?', he asked me. 'She's going to be really upset.'
    We had been talking about the Jackson 5's debut album. I ponted to a mock-up and said 'Why don't we have the cover say ' Diana Ross Presents the Jackson 5?' It puts her in a different catagory' And that's what we did."

  22. #72
    MissLish Guest
    Ooooowhahoooo! Now that is a juicy little tidbit pj1! Thanks for sharing. LOLOLOLOL!

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by ExGuyParis View Post
    I think I remember reading once upon a time that Someday was intended to be a solo Ross record (as recorded, with the Andantes) but the last few Supremes singles failed to peak... so it became a Supremes song.

    The last time I saw D & the Supremes at the Latin Casino, I talked with Cindy and Mary after the show, and it was clear they were unhappy in the Supremes as well. They told me that Diana & Berry were staying in a different hotel, and they were angry about that... and the Cindy & Mary were no longer sharing a dressing room with Diana. There was no clue about those emotions during the performance, though!
    I've ben luck enough to have been around to see (or not see) The Supremes at some very interesting times in their history. The first was at the Latin Casino in March of '67, the week "The Happening" was released. One of the last gigs before Flo left.(There are pictures of Flo and her boyfriend at the Rickshaw Inn in Peter Benjamin's book from that gig.) The next time was August '67 at Steel Pier, one of the first gigs with Cindy. (The gig that ExGuyParis posted pictures from in the gold gowns.) The in June of '68, I was going to see them at the Latin Casino as a birthday gift, but Diana's dogs ate poison in the dressing room 2 nights before I was to go and they canceled the gig. I was beyond devastated. I kept thinking she would come back. I kept wondering if I was dreaming. I hard time for a 14 year old who lived for his "girls."

  24. #74
    Ooops...before your write, the last gig I was scheduled to see was in June of '69, not '68. That's the one ExGuyParis is referring to also. Can't believe we never ran into each other being at so many of the same gigs. I was also at Madison Square Garden during THAT gig in '77. I couldn't believe what I was witnessing. It was harsh to say the least.

  25. #75
    MissLish Guest
    What happened in 1977 at MSG?

  26. #76
    Pj1 - I loved that quote from Berry - "well what are we gonna do with Diana?" he asked "She going to be really upset."....this is were Diana took more control in their relationship....she wanted Reach Out as the first single and the companies marketing team & Berry nold her no.....she got her first single choice..Berry doubted Aint No Moutains potential....she got her secound single choice..the stage shows were lavish theatrical presentations from her imagination....

    Midnightman - I loved what you wrote - "We also gotta understand someone like Mary didnt wanna be pushed around while Diana Ross being the LEAD SINGER really had no choice in the subject..." Man I started to laugh out loud at work when I read that - in a few sentences you managed encapuslate just how pissed off Mary was...Thats a big turning point in Mary becoming hostile to the changes in the group ...suddenely Flo was gone and now Mary was being aloof to Diana.

    Jeff 9nyc -If I had been a fan around the time of the Latin Casino cancellations it would have devasted my world as well...

  27. #77

    Accreditation

    Quote Originally Posted by skooldem1 View Post
    Speaking of "Someday" and "Love Child".."Diana Ross" is now credited with those songs on the billboard chart bringing her to 8 number ones. Its tricky, the Supremes are also credited. The reason is because they were released as Diana Ross AND The Supremes.
    And to complicate matters even further we know that Mary and Cindy didn't actually sing on ANY singles after Florence left!

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by rubcale View Post
    And to complicate matters even further we know that Mary and Cindy didn't actually sing on ANY singles after Florence left!
    Which actually isn't true: "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" with the Temptations was released as a single.

  29. #79
    The Madison Square Garden concert in 1977 is probably a reference to the Supremes being booed when they were on an oldies show and came out singing disco - maybe they tried something from Mary Scherrie and Susaye.

  30. #80
    topdiva1 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by rubcale View Post
    And to complicate matters even further we know that Mary and Cindy didn't actually sing on ANY singles after Florence left!

    So is Mary a liar - you speak as if you REALLY KNOW - that is dangerous.

  31. #81
    Mary and Cindy only sang on temptation duet singles-no one on SDF has ever said different,It happened,its history build a bridge and move on they sang on album cuts,television and on stage..the notes in the supremes box set explains all this

  32. #82
    MissLish Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by topdiva1 View Post
    So is Mary a liar - you speak as if you REALLY KNOW - that is dangerous.



    Mary has lied before TopDiva; just as we all have. Telling lies doesn't necessairily make one a "liar"; however, habitually doing so, certainly does. No lives or limbs will be lost from participating in any of these threads; calm down dear; its only entertainment.

  33. #83
    yeah..when did Mary have to lie?Shes Miss Mary Wilson of the highest order-shes loved a wonderful life people love Miss Mary Wilson for who she is a good homegirl..just read a book on Warhol and the last thing he was reading in the hospital before he died was Dreamgirl..Her blend with Flo on "Im In Love" has to be the best harmony in the whole word..precise perfection from a living legend..Marys lived her life making other people happy,,I think many things about mary Wilson but she aint a lair !!!!

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    also, after the departure of Florence and HDH, motown felt that the Supremes would not recover so REFLECTIONS was planned to be the last single [at that time] and Flo was going to be brought back for a farewell tour or shows. Diana didnt feel she was ready and she also felt an obligation to Mary wilson so she stayed until her contract with the supremes [january 13 1970] was completed. i dont think diana would have stayed one way or another. her contract was up .
    I thought it was "You Keep Me Hanging On?"

  35. #85
    ^ I don't think it was that song since Florence wasn't in danger of losing her spot...yet.

    I think it goes to show that Shelly Berger played a part in making it sound that besides from the Temptations recordings that Mary and Cindy recorded any new songs with Diana - they didn't. Also if Mary said she wanted a break rather than contribute to "Love Child" due to Berry's demand then she had as much to do with the decision Berry went with.

    Plus the Supremes needed a song like "Love Child" considering how Aretha Franklin's sudden rise to fame following the releases of "I Never Loved a Man" and "Respect" had suddenly made the Supremes old hat in the world of what was deemed "rock and roll music" at the time (especially in the soul market).

    Back on "Someday", I don't think it would've failed either way. Each version of the song is nice.

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