Norman Whitfield vs. Sly Stone: The Battle of the Diss Tracks

[sansradio]

I was this-weekend years old when I learned [from a Questlove podcast] that the germ of Sly & The Family Stone's "Hot Fun in the Summertime" was a slam towards what Stone felt was Norman Whitfield's incursion into Stone's psychedelic-soul fiefdom after the massive success of "Cloud Nine."
The lyrics "I cloud nine when I want to" and "boo-boo-boo-boo-boo when I want to" [think Dennis's famous ad-libs at the end] make all the sense in the world now.

And one of Motown's greatest mysteries is solved: In true proto-hip-hop-battle fashion, Norman and The Tempts responded with "Superstar [Remember How You Got Where You Are]." Yes, it's not about David or anyone else but Sly. Wild. Thoughts?

[ralpht]

Nothing unusual there. Musicians have been "borrowing" from one another for years. It is known as "nicking". Much more creative then sampling.
.

[Motown Eddie]

I was this-weekend years old when I learned [from a Questlove podcast] that the germ of Sly & The Family Stone's "Hot Fun in the Summertime" was a slam towards what Stone felt was Norman Whitfield's incursion into Stone's psychedelic-soul fiefdom after the massive success of "Cloud Nine."
The lyrics "I cloud nine when I want to" and "boo-boo-boo-boo-boo when I want to" [think Dennis's famous ad-libs at the end] make all the sense in the world now.

And one of Motown's greatest mysteries is solved: In true proto-hip-hop-battle fashion, Norman and The Tempts responded with "Superstar [Remember How You Got Where You Are]." Yes, it's not about David or anyone else but Sly. Wild. Thoughts?

Very interesting! If Sly Stone was concerned about Whitfield & The Tempts entering his territory with "Cloud Nine", just wait until a year later when The Impressions scored their first attempts with psychedelic soul with "Check Out Your Mind" & "Baby Turn On To Me" and The Chi-Lites hits that used Sly's multi-part vocal style like "I Like Your Loving" & "Are You My Woman".

And if Whitfield's classic "Superstar [Remember How You Got Where You Are]" is a diss at Sly, it was very timely since Sly & Co. developed their habit of either showing up late for concerts or canceling them altogether due to their drug use in 1971 when "Superstar" came out.

Thanks Sansradio for the info; I'd never connected "Cloud Nine" & "Hot Fun In The Summertime" before hearing that detail from Questlove's Podcast.

[sansradio]

Very interesting! If Sly Stone was concerned about Whitfield & The Tempts entering his territory with "Cloud Nine", just wait until a year later when The Impressions scored their first attempts with psychedelic soul with "Check Out Your Mind" & "Baby Turn On To Me" and The Chi-Lites hits that used Sly's multi-part vocal style like "I Like Your Loving" & "Are You My Woman".

And if Whitfield's classic "Superstar [Remember How You Got Where You Are]" is a diss at Sly, it was very timely since Sly & Co. developed their habit of either showing up late for concerts or canceling them altogether due to their drug use in 1971 when "Superstar" came out.

Thanks Sansradio for the info; I'd never connected "Cloud Nine" & "Hot Fun In The Summertime" before hearing that detail from Questlove's Podcast.

My pleasure! Who knew they were beefing? Great points you make regarding the post-Sly psychedelic soul onslaught and Sly’s reputation.

[sansradio]

Nothing unusual there. Musicians have been "borrowing" from one another for years. It is known as "nicking". Much more creative then sampling.
.

Hey, Ralph! This ran a little deeper than just cribbing, though--Sly was pissed and had an ax to grind. Thankfully, nobody got their knickers in a twist and started suing [shout-out to Drake].

[ralpht]

Sans, looked like the seeds of A Rock and Roll feud ala East Coast versus West Coast Rap. I know Sly could be a little unreliable, mainly not showing up for appearances many times. From what I remember, he wanted Harry Balk to manage him. but Harry didn't want any part of his aggravation and turned him down.

[sansradio]

Sans, looked like the seeds of A Rock and Roll feud ala East Coast versus West Coast Rap. I know Sly could be a little unreliable, mainly not showing up for appearances many times. From what I remember, he wanted Harry Balk to manage him. but Harry didn't want any part of his aggravation and turned him down.

Exactly! And wow about Harry! Can you blame him?

On another note, when are you gonna write a book, for crying out loud?

[ralpht]

Sans, I already wrote a book. Two of them. The Road Through Motown and Russ Terrana's Motown. Both are available most everywhere. Amazon for sure.

[Sotosound]

I was this-weekend years old when I learned [from a Questlove podcast] that the germ of Sly & The Family Stone's "Hot Fun in the Summertime" was a slam towards what Stone felt was Norman Whitfield's incursion into Stone's psychedelic-soul fiefdom after the massive success of "Cloud Nine."
The lyrics "I cloud nine when I want to" and "boo-boo-boo-boo-boo when I want to" [think Dennis's famous ad-libs at the end] make all the sense in the world now.

And one of Motown's greatest mysteries is solved: In true proto-hip-hop-battle fashion, Norman and The Tempts responded with "Superstar [Remember How You Got Where You Are]." Yes, it's not about David or anyone else but Sly. Wild. Thoughts?

This stuff might be true but it also might not be true. My personal jury is out regarding who "Superstar" was about. I'd have put David Ruffin in the frame and not Sly Stone.

[Starguard4]

This stuff might be true but it also might not be true.

So... "ain't nothin' but a maybe", to quote a song recently heard. And I'm sure you're right.

[sansradio]

Sans, I already wrote a book. Two of them. The Road Through Motown and Russ Terrana's Motown. Both are available most everywhere. Amazon for sure.

Major whoopsies on my part. Will definitely hunt them up. Thanks!

[sansradio]

This stuff might be true but it also might not be true. My personal jury is out regarding who "Superstar" was about. I'd have put David Ruffin in the frame and not Sly Stone.

I’d always assumed it was about David as well, but consider the “like everyday people, you’re just a human being” line. Here’s a snippet of Quest’s podcast:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DHJ_3...Jwb2l4c2k5eDM4

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Sans, I already wrote a book. Two of them. The Road Through Motown and Russ Terrana's Motown. Both are available most everywhere. Amazon for sure.

Sans, I have both Ralph's book as well as his brother Russ' book. They're both excellent -- especially Ralph's.

[ralpht]

Gary, Thanks for the positive review on my books.

[tjl]

I have an on-camera interview with Dennis talking about how he went to Norman and said why should all the pressure be on me as the lead singer when we all can sing leads - and told Norman to look at what Sly was doing and why didn't the Tempts move in that direction during Dennis' time.

It was Dennis recalling his perception of how his era was different from David and Eddie's and was very respectful to Sly.

[sansradio]

I have an on-camera interview with Dennis talking about how he went to Norman and said why should all the pressure be on me as the lead singer when we all can sing leads - and told Norman to look at what Sly was doing and why didn't the Tempts move in that direction during Dennis' time.

It was Dennis recalling his perception of how his era was different from David and Eddie's and was very respectful to Sly.

There we go! Is this interview available on YouTube, T.J.?

[Motown Eddie]

I have an on-camera interview with Dennis talking about how he went to Norman and said why should all the pressure be on me as the lead singer when we all can sing leads - and told Norman to look at what Sly was doing and why didn't the Tempts move in that direction during Dennis' time.

It was Dennis recalling his perception of how his era was different from David and Eddie's and was very respectful to Sly.

Very Interesting TJ. This means that there were two members of The Tempts who spoke to their producer/songwriter Norman Whitfield about adapting Sly Stone's influence to their sound. As Otis Williams said in his book Temptations, he felt that after hearing Sly's "Dance To The Music" in 1968 that The Tempts should try something like that for their next single and suggested it to Whitfield [and the rest is music history].

PS: As Sansradio said, is that interview with Dennis Edwards on YouTube??

[tjl]

I can post it in a few days, have to digitize it.

[ralpht]

Thank you T.J. Much appreciated.

[sansradio]

I can post it in a few days, have to digitize it.

That would be fantastic! Thanks in advance.

[Probbie24]

I was this-weekend years old when I learned [from a Questlove podcast] that the germ of Sly & The Family Stone's "Hot Fun in the Summertime" was a slam towards what Stone felt was Norman Whitfield's incursion into Stone's psychedelic-soul fiefdom after the massive success of "Cloud Nine."
The lyrics "I cloud nine when I want to" and "boo-boo-boo-boo-boo when I want to" [think Dennis's famous ad-libs at the end] make all the sense in the world now.

And one of Motown's greatest mysteries is solved: In true proto-hip-hop-battle fashion, Norman and The Tempts responded with "Superstar [Remember How You Got Where You Are]." Yes, it's not about David or anyone else but Sly. Wild. Thoughts?

Thanks for posting this! I was nine years old when I first heard "Hot Fun in the summer time" and back in 1969, I thought that the words were "I cry loud when I
want to". And since 1969, I've been singing the wrong words. Lol lol. Getting back to your question, I think that "Superstar" was directed at David and Eddie because they both became superstars while in the Temptations and needed to remember that they had help getting there.

[midnightman]

Wait, "Superstar" was aimed at Sly???

This whole time?!

I have to believe this because neither David or Eddie were popping off in 1971 like Sly still was.

[midnightman]

I’d always assumed it was about David as well, but consider the “like everyday people, you’re just a human being” line. Here’s a snippet of Quest’s podcast:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DHJ_3...Jwb2l4c2k5eDM4

OMG that is a BIG GET right there!!!

[midnightman]

On second thought, I can see how this would be about David lol

Which is funny because DAVID covered it! LMAO

[sansradio]

OMG that is a BIG GET right there!!!

Bowled me ALL the way over.

[midnightman]

Bowled me ALL the way over.

Right. I was like "OUCH!" LOL