The Marelettes and The Andantes

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

I kwould like to open that thread because in my opinion The Marvelettes treat unfair to use The Andantes. So othwer groups like Martha Reeves and The Vandellas changed the wohle Vandellas with The Andantes. So The Marvelettes were the "pioneer" female group of Motown, they startet as a quintett and reduced to a trio, the trio can´t sang in 2 voices, so they used The Andantes for the higher voices and then together , maybe they used The Andantes the most, but alone lesser, I think Martha & The Vandellas used them more only, replaced The Vandellas totally with The Andantes!

What the others think?

[Starguard4]

Well, in trying to make any sense of your [[badly-spelt) post, it looks to me like the start of a "knock The Andantes" thread. If so, then shame on you. If not, please clarify exactly what you are trying to say.

[mysterysinger]

Just The Andantes and Wanda on "Return of The Marvelettes" as I think it was originally to be a Wanda solo project [[except for repeated tracks such as "Uptown" and "That's How Heartaches Are Made".

"Yn Full Bloom" was the last record to feature any Marvelettes besides Wanda Young on the cover or on vinyl [[except as above).

[copley]

I'm sorry but your post does not make sense. Would you please clarify what you are asking?

[motony]

I think, if my old memory serves me correct, that "Too Many Fish In the Sea" was the last single release that was only the Marvelettes. After that the Andantes were needed to provide filler & in some cases total replacement of the real Marvelettes. That has always bothered me as an original Motown fan since 1961 but bothers me even more with Vandellas & Supremes, I love the Andantes.....now I'm not stupid...I knew something was up back then, when the Marvelletes went from hip-teenagers style to a refined vocal perfect style, seemingly overnite.I can still pick out the later tracks that do have real Marvelettes on them.

[copley]

'My Baby Must Be a Magician' was the first single that Wanda was backed by only the Andantes. Kat & Ann were not present. Up till then the girls were augmented by the Andantes.

[daviddesper]

One day on Sirius XM, they played Don't Mess With Bill and the DJ spent a lot of time discussing how it was just Wanda backed up by the Andantes. I was never aware of that so I did not necessarily believe it.

[floyjoy678]

Sounds like only the Andantes to me on Don't Mess With Bill. When Gladys sang background her voice usually stands out.

[copley]

All the records show that Gladys was present on 'Bill' and I can hear her.

[Spreadinglove21]

Here's Wanda, Gladys, and Kat singing Don't Mess with Bill to a playback track. I think the ooos are the Andantes but rest of background is Gladys and Kat, at least on this on performance.

[blackguy69]

If I’m correct was it Lamont or Eddie who said that when they recorded the marvelettes and they couldn’t get the sound right, they would call the andantes in . As for the case of the vandellas, after Roz was fired, the Andantes use was picked up but Lois and Sandra did still record

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Well, in trying to make any sense of your [[badly-spelt) post, it looks to me like the start of a "knock The Andantes" thread. If so, then shame on you. If not, please clarify exactly what you are trying to say.

This sounds to me as an agressive reply! It is very bad to see that, that the people here react so incomprehensible! I would like to say that the Marvelettes use The Andantes to have then the possibilty to sing in two voices! And I would never ever say that The Andantes are not talented, they are very talented and they made a very good job as a solo backround group too. But on the other hand you have Martha & The Vandellas, on Natural Rescources you have only Martha Reevs and The Andantes. The Andantes Fully replaced the Vandellas. Some people said The Marvelettes are the most group which recorded with The Andantes, but the reason was that they can sing in two voices.

[Starguard4]

This sounds to me as an agressive reply! It is very bad to see that, that the people here react so incomprehensible! I would like to say that the Marvelettes use The Andantes to have then the possibilty to sing in two voices! And I would never ever say that The Andantes are not talented, they are very talented and they made a very good job as a solo backround group too. But on the other hand you have Martha & The Vandellas, on Natural Rescources you have only Martha Reevs and The Andantes. The Andantes Fully replaced the Vandellas. Some people said The Marvelettes are the most group which recorded with The Andantes, but the reason was that they can sing in two voices.

If you see any aggression in there, then you've brought it on yourself, by an initial badly-written and unclear post. But I can assure you that no aggression, as you put it, was intended - and you now playing the victim, well.... shame on you again!

[sup_fan]

I think, if my old memory serves me correct, that "Too Many Fish In the Sea" was the last single release that was only the Marvelettes. After that the Andantes were needed to provide filler & in some cases total replacement of the real Marvelettes. That has always bothered me as an original Motown fan since 1961 but bothers me even more with Vandellas & Supremes, I love the Andantes.....now I'm not stupid...I knew something was up back then, when the Marvelletes went from hip-teenagers style to a refined vocal perfect style, seemingly overnite.I can still pick out the later tracks that do have real Marvelettes on them.

i'm pretty sure the Andantes were on Too Many Fish, although the Ms are there too. the chorus and harmonies are very polished. If you listen to a track like Danger Heartbreak, which i believe is only the Ms, you can hear that it's a more rough sound. I think the Ms sang in unison on Too Many Fish and then As were added to the song to fill in the harmonies

[luckyluckyme]

Since "fulfillingnessfirstfinale" is from Frankfurt, Germany, I think it is safe to assume that English is not his native tongue. If we remember this fact, we can have a little patience and carefully read his posts to find the gist of what he is saying or asking.
Lord knows how poorly some of us would do trying to communicate with him in German.

[copley]

i'm pretty sure the Andantes were on Too Many Fish, although the Ms are there too. the chorus and harmonies are very polished. If you listen to a track like Danger Heartbreak, which i believe is only the Ms, you can hear that it's a more rough sound. I think the Ms sang in unison on Too Many Fish and then As were added to the song to fill in the harmonies

Lead and background vocals by Gladys Horton [[verses and choruses), Wanda Young [[choruses), Georgeanna Tillman [[choruses) and Katherine Anderson [[choruses). No Andantes. However they were on the 'b' side 'A Need for Love' which was recorded earlier in the year!

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Since "fulfillingnessfirstfinale" is from Frankfurt, Germany, I think it is safe to assume that English is not his native tongue. If we remember this fact, we can have a little patience and carefully read his posts to find the gist of what he is saying or asking.
Lord knows how poorly some of us would do trying to communicate with him in German.

Thank you so much for your kindness luckyluckyme! I would like to try to say, when the group reduced to a trio they have only alto voices in the backround, for example "The Stranger"! But I think it could be like copley explain, that Gladys sang on the Chorus too, the soprano voice.

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Does anyone knows in which harmonie every Marvelette have sung? Soprano or alto, since the early years of the group as they were Quintett.

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Thanks fpr many response

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Lead and background vocals by Gladys Horton [[verses and choruses), Wanda Young [[choruses), Georgeanna Tillman [[choruses) and Katherine Anderson [[choruses). No Andantes. However they were on the 'b' side 'A Need for Love' which was recorded earlier in the
year!

Thank you so much copley to clarify this. But for me there is another question! When you say how wiki say, Gladys is on lead and in the chorus, so it must recorded the song two times, a lot of expense to record a song, when the company have the Andantes? It would have been easier to use The Andantes for the higher voices during the recording, isn´t it?

[Starguard4]

Since "fulfillingnessfirstfinale" is from Frankfurt, Germany, I think it is safe to assume that English is not his native tongue. If we remember this fact, we can have a little patience and carefully read his posts to find the gist of what he is saying or asking.
Lord knows how poorly some of us would do trying to communicate with him in German.

Thank you lucky, that now explains quite a lot to me. Please re-assure your German friend, that he is not in any danger of being eaten, and you're right on the button with your last point - I should know, I've tried it. Years ago, we had a translating program on the internet, called something like Babel-fish. And the results it produced, translating from whatever into English, were often hilarious to say the least. Today, "Google translate" might be a good option, for some people, rather than guesswork. I know I'd prefer to use that, rather than any other method.

[midnightman]

Honestly the Andantes being on every girl group track on Motown around the mid-60s kinda undid the groups. Like they went from all three of them being very unique and different to being same-y a lot of the times.

The Marvelettes were rock and rollers, Martha and the Vandellas were inner city soul divas, the Supremes a mixture of sophisticated and streetwise plus glamorous and harmonious. The Andantes being included kinda destroyed that. Not that the songs were bad [[not at all obviously) but they weren't needed all the time!

[Sotosound]

Thank you so much copley to clarify this. But for me there is another question! When you say how wiki say, Gladys is on lead and in the chorus, so it must recorded the song two times, a lot of expense to record a song, when the company have the Andantes? It would have been easier to use The Andantes for the higher voices during the recording, isn´t it?

The instrumental backing was recorded first.

The lead vocals and the backing vocals were recorded at a later date, and the lead vocal will probably have been recorded at a different time to the backing vocals.

This approach was standard at Motown and it will have allowed Gladys to sing lead vocal and also to sing backing vocals.

[Spreadinglove21]

Very few [[if any?) Motown recordings were done fully live with singers and musicians all in studio together at same time to cut a record. Can anyone name any such recordings?

[mysterysinger]

Wasn't there was always supposed to be a vocalist present under musician union rules?

[midnightman]

Wasn't there was always supposed to be a vocalist present under musician union rules?

Maybe. But I wonder something: if a certain band member wasn't present for the recording, were they ever fined? It doesn't even seem like what I read about the Supremes that Mary, Flo or Cindy were fined for "missing sessions" so they just said "whatever, get the Andantes". That could've also been the case with the Marvelettes and Vandellas but there hasn't been a book that went into much depth about what was going on with THOSE groups.

[motony]

I know the stuff recorded in 1961 & some of 62 were all done at the same time with band & vocalists.When they could afford new recording equipment then they could do tracks without the artists being present, esp when they were heavily booked on the road.

[ralpht]

Mystery....to answer your question,,,yes a vocalist had to be in a vocal booth singing. Union rules. Enforced in L. A. not Detroit. The problem was it took up a valuble track when there weren't that many to share. My brother, Russ, had a trick he used to save a needed track. He would record the vocal while the union pain in the ass was present he did that just once. he would then open the track for more important things. When he went to play back he would open the demo voice track so the union pain in the ass would hear a vocal. The dude never figured out he was hearing the first vocal take over and over. When Russ told Berry what he was doing, Berry was thrilled and he and Russ became fast friends.

[ralpht]

Since "fulfillingnessfirstfinale" is from Frankfurt, Germany, I think it is safe to assume that English is not his native tongue. If we remember this fact, we can have a little patience and carefully read his posts to find the gist of what he is saying or asking.
Lord knows how poorly some of us would do trying to communicate with him in German.

Nice reply Lucky.

[Sotosound]

Mystery....to answer your question,,,yes a vocalist had to be in a vocal booth singing. Union rules. Enforced in L. A. not Detroit. The problem was it took up a valuble track when there weren't that many to share. My brother, Russ, had a trick he used to save a needed track. He would record the vocal while the union pain in the ass was present he did that just once. he would then open the track for more important things. When he went to play back he would open the demo voice track so the union pain in the ass would hear a vocal. The dude never figured out he was hearing the first vocal take over and over. When Russ told Berry what he was doing, Berry was thrilled and he and Russ became fast friends.

Nice reply.

[bradsupremes]

'My Baby Must Be a Magician' was the first single that Wanda was backed by only the Andantes. Kat & Ann were not present. Up till then the girls were augmented by the Andantes.

The first Marvelettes single to be just Andantes on background vocals was "I'll Keep Holding On." The only single after 1965 that was just the Marvelettes was "Danger! Heartbreak Dead Ahead."

I've always wondered where the story that the Marvelettes were augmented by the Andantes on all their tracks after 1965 originated. It's clear listening to tracks like "Don't Mess With Bill" and "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" that it's just the Andantes. It really was only Gladys or Wanda on all the singles after 1965 and most album tracks. Kat was really only a Marvelette in live performances after Georgeanna left. I don't think she was used much in the studio.

[mysterysinger]

Mystery....to answer your question,,,yes a vocalist had to be in a vocal booth singing. Union rules. Enforced in L. A. not Detroit. The problem was it took up a valuble track when there weren't that many to share. My brother, Russ, had a trick he used to save a needed track. He would record the vocal while the union pain in the ass was present he did that just once. he would then open the track for more important things. When he went to play back he would open the demo voice track so the union pain in the ass would hear a vocal. The dude never figured out he was hearing the first vocal take over and over. When Russ told Berry what he was doing, Berry was thrilled and he and Russ became fast friends.

Thanks Ralph - trust Russ to come up with a work around. He [[as you did) added so much to Motown's rich history. Where would we be without you guys?

[floyjoy678]

The first Marvelettes single to be just Andantes on background vocals was "I'll Keep Holding On." The only single after 1965 that was just the Marvelettes was "Danger! Heartbreak Dead Ahead."

I've always wondered where the story that the Marvelettes were augmented by the Andantes on all their tracks after 1965 originated. It's clear listening to tracks like "Don't Mess With Bill" and "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" that it's just the Andantes. It really was only Gladys or Wanda on all the singles after 1965 and most album tracks. Kat was really only a Marvelette in live performances after Georgeanna left. I don't think she was used much in the studio.

Brad are you sure there's no augmenting on "Danger! Heartbreak Dead Ahead"? Sounds like some extra voices in there with Gladys and Kat. I only hear the Andantes on "Don't Mess With Bill". Not sure where people are hearing the actual Marvelettes in there. Kat did make it on the some of the later songs like "Message To Michael" and "When You're Young And In Love" of course there are Andantes on those songs too.

[sup_fan]

Lead and background vocals by Gladys Horton [[verses and choruses), Wanda Young [[choruses), Georgeanna Tillman [[choruses) and Katherine Anderson [[choruses). No Andantes. However they were on the 'b' side 'A Need for Love' which was recorded earlier in the year!

i'm not denying that the Ms were on the song. but there's no way that's the Ms doing the harmonies on the choruses. compare the tones and sound qualities of the voices on Fish and on Danger. night and day differences. it's not like the M's could miraculously transition into perfect 4 part harmonies with perfect blend and then transition out of that.

and motown session sheets and records are notoriously incomplete.

[ralpht]

Thanks Ralph - trust Russ to come up with a work around. He [[as you did) added so much to Motown's rich history. Where would we be without you guys?

Thank you for the kind words, Mystery.