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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    But those instances weren't consistent. There a lot of dry spells in between. I know Motown touted that moment when five of their songs were in the top 10 at the end of 1968 as how they were doing better than ever, but I frankly think it was done to show they didn't HDH. And it's true, a lot of amazing material came out after HDH left but when three of your biggest acts suffer [[Four Tops, Supremes, Vandellas), you aren't doing better as a label.
    What's not brought up is how Motown actually struggled in 1968, after four banner years where they dominated pop music. The loss of HDH cut the label VERY deep. Smokey wasn't really hitting anything out of the ballpark for other acts at that point and after "I Second That Emotion", he and the Miracles wouldn't have another big top ten hit until "Baby, Baby Don't Cry" in 1969 [[and in '69, the Miracles REALLY struggled! They BARELY cracked the pop top 40 throughout the year, that's not enough profit from songs that peak at number 32 or 33 or 37. After Marvin and Tammi scored five top 20 hits in a row, things had slowed to a crawl partially due to Tammi's illness and the fact that the songs released afterwards didn't really perform well as they probably should've. Marvin himself hadn't hit the top ten as a solo artist since "Ain't That Peculiar" in late 1965. Three years without a huge solo hit was not great business and Berry didn't help by insisting on Marvin releasing boring ass songs like "Your Unchanging Love". Gordy didn't like the grittier Marvin, which is why "You" only reached 34. "Chained" was 32 and who knows how it would've done had Gordy decided at the last minute to finally release "I Heard It Through the Grapevine", which finally made Marvin a pop superstar and became the biggest hit of his career and put him at the top of the soul heap after the death of Otis Redding and James Brown's transition to funk. And ironically enough "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" ended up replacing "Love Child" at number one. I wonder how that made Marvin feel... probably petty like "I beat Miss Ross at something haha".

    The Temptations and Stevie Wonder were probably the most consistent Motown hitmakers around this trying period [[1967-69) with Marvin being part of the triad keeping Motown afloat [[Norman Whitfield being responsible for the Tempts/Gaye's continued success while Stevie was then being produced by Hank Cosby and then began to produce on his own after his 18th birthday but still relied on Cosby as he definitely helped him to transition to the 70s better than most Motown artists, outside of Gaye, who settled into his rawer sound, which then paved the way for "What's Going On").

    But everyone else who had been there at the very beginning and stayed throughout all the changes in the label by then - Marvelettes, Four Tops, Miracles, Martha and the Vandellas, Supremes - either performed modestly or downright flopped or both and almost all were neglected by Motown staff that was putting all their money on the Supremes/Temptations TV specials while Gordy basically became obsessed with making Diana as big of a show business superstar as Barbra Streisand.

    I think it was just the times weren't good for the "Sound of Young America". You go from being on top to suddenly having to tour your old hits just to eat. It happened that fast for many of the label's original roster. The Supremes somehow thrived on their live shows and dramatic costumes so they dealt with the chart/sales fallout better because they were the hugest singles act of all time on the label and could perform at the main theaters and halls and slightly bigger venues such as coliseums and stadiums [[when they were booked at pop festivals) because of the impact they made from 1964-67.

    Even if HDH stayed, they probably wouldn't have been able to thrive in the late 60s either. "More Aretha, less Motown [[unless it's the Tempts, Marvin or Stevie)".

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    What's not brought up is how Motown actually struggled in 1968, after four banner years where they dominated pop music. The loss of HDH cut the label VERY deep. Smokey wasn't really hitting anything out of the ballpark for other acts at that point and after "I Second That Emotion", he and the Miracles wouldn't have another big top ten hit until "Baby, Baby Don't Cry" in 1969 [[and in '69, the Miracles REALLY struggled! They BARELY cracked the pop top 40 throughout the year, that's not enough profit from songs that peak at number 32 or 33 or 37. After Marvin and Tammi scored five top 20 hits in a row, things had slowed to a crawl partially due to Tammi's illness and the fact that the songs released afterwards didn't really perform well as they probably should've. Marvin himself hadn't hit the top ten as a solo artist since "Ain't That Peculiar" in late 1965. Three years without a huge solo hit was not great business and Berry didn't help by insisting on Marvin releasing boring ass songs like "Your Unchanging Love". Gordy didn't like the grittier Marvin, which is why "You" only reached 34. "Chained" was 32 and who knows how it would've done had Gordy decided at the last minute to finally release "I Heard It Through the Grapevine", which finally made Marvin a pop superstar and became the biggest hit of his career and put him at the top of the soul heap after the death of Otis Redding and James Brown's transition to funk. And ironically enough "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" ended up replacing "Love Child" at number one. I wonder how that made Marvin feel... probably petty like "I beat Miss Ross at something haha".

    The Temptations and Stevie Wonder were probably the most consistent Motown hitmakers around this trying period [[1967-69) with Marvin being part of the triad keeping Motown afloat [[Norman Whitfield being responsible for the Tempts/Gaye's continued success while Stevie was then being produced by Hank Cosby and then began to produce on his own after his 18th birthday but still relied on Cosby as he definitely helped him to transition to the 70s better than most Motown artists, outside of Gaye, who settled into his rawer sound, which then paved the way for "What's Going On").

    But everyone else who had been there at the very beginning and stayed throughout all the changes in the label by then - Marvelettes, Four Tops, Miracles, Martha and the Vandellas, Supremes - either performed modestly or downright flopped or both and almost all were neglected by Motown staff that was putting all their money on the Supremes/Temptations TV specials while Gordy basically became obsessed with making Diana as big of a show business superstar as Barbra Streisand.

    I think it was just the times weren't good for the "Sound of Young America". You go from being on top to suddenly having to tour your old hits just to eat. It happened that fast for many of the label's original roster. The Supremes somehow thrived on their live shows and dramatic costumes so they dealt with the chart/sales fallout better because they were the hugest singles act of all time on the label and could perform at the main theaters and halls and slightly bigger venues such as coliseums and stadiums [[when they were booked at pop festivals) because of the impact they made from 1964-67.

    Even if HDH stayed, they probably wouldn't have been able to thrive in the late 60s either. "More Aretha, less Motown [[unless it's the Tempts, Marvin or Stevie)".
    very accurate points. but i'll add that even Stevie wasn't a consistent powerhouse in the late 60s.

    in 67 he had 3 singles - travling man 32, i was made to love her 2, i'm wondering 12
    68 - shoo be doo 12, you met your match 35, alfie 66, for once in my life 2
    69 - i don't know why 39, my cherie amore 4, yester me 7


    motown effectively broke down barriers. prior to them, it would have been pretty scandalous for a white kid to buy a "black" record or go see them in concert. motown made it mainstream. but like anything, you gotta keep things fresh. the Supremes really were the ones that kicked open the door and achieved mainstream success. and once they did, people began to look at the broader motown roster.

    but once they looked at that broader roaster, they began to look at black music as a whole. and that's when you got Aretha, Otis, Sly and lots of others begin to break onto the scene.

    plus music no longer was "cute" as it had been earlier in the decade when things felt so much happier and sunnier. by 67/68, things were rapidly deteriorating with the vietnam war. kids were not willing to be drafted for something that was becoming so unpopular. they were seeing gruesome images of the war on tv. civil rights marches were expanding and then the horrid assignations.

    music is meant to be an expression of the culture. of its values and feelings. popular music was being exposed to people at a much faster and more engaging ways in the 60s. plus you had the massive rise of the baby boomers into really the first consumer youth market. artists were experimenting with new ways to express themselves, new sounds, new technologies.

  3. #53
    Midnight, I disagree with a couple of things.

    I have a hard time imagining Gordy wanting Diana out of the Supremes and not getting his way. I think if Gordy really thought Diana was ready [[she wasn't, IMO) he wouldn't have cared whether she wanted to go or not. He was going to get his way.

    I think it's wishful thinking that Diana cared whether or not Mary and Cindy were singing on any particular record. By that point, any "group" feelings Diana had probably died when Flo left. She knew what the plan was for DRATS, that it was her test run at a solo career without technically leaving the group. The big head she had been getting prior to Flo's exit was now officially as big as a blimp. She didn't have time to consider or care about Mary and Cindy's background duties and as a result she likely felt no betrayal about them not being on "Love Child".

    As far as the Miracles go, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any negative feelings about Smokey's name going in front. I don't think they were ever a group where the members consistently traded leads. Yes, Claudette, Bobby and Ronnie sang leads here and there [[I really enjoy Ronnie's singing, btw) but I think Smokey was always the group's front person. The issue with the Supremes was that they started out as a group with three [[or four) lead singers, trading leads back and forth, to becoming a group with an official lead singer, to then become a group with said lead singer's name out front. I think the ego situation was different with the Supremes than it was with the Miracles and even the Vandellas. Not to mention, while Smokey was also successful as a songwriter in addition to the group, he frequently collaborated with his group mates on songs and production. I think Smokey cared enough about the other Miracles to keep them engaged and feeling important, whereas Diana, purposeful or absentmindedly, was looking for opportunities to distance herself and elevate her position beyond that of Flo and Mary. It all came down to managing egos. I think the Miracles, like the Tops, did a much better job of it.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Midnight, I disagree with a couple of things.

    I have a hard time imagining Gordy wanting Diana out of the Supremes and not getting his way. I think if Gordy really thought Diana was ready [[she wasn't, IMO) he wouldn't have cared whether she wanted to go or not. He was going to get his way.

    I think it's wishful thinking that Diana cared whether or not Mary and Cindy were singing on any particular record. By that point, any "group" feelings Diana had probably died when Flo left. She knew what the plan was for DRATS, that it was her test run at a solo career without technically leaving the group. The big head she had been getting prior to Flo's exit was now officially as big as a blimp. She didn't have time to consider or care about Mary and Cindy's background duties and as a result she likely felt no betrayal about them not being on "Love Child".

    As far as the Miracles go, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any negative feelings about Smokey's name going in front. I don't think they were ever a group where the members consistently traded leads. Yes, Claudette, Bobby and Ronnie sang leads here and there [[I really enjoy Ronnie's singing, btw) but I think Smokey was always the group's front person. The issue with the Supremes was that they started out as a group with three [[or four) lead singers, trading leads back and forth, to becoming a group with an official lead singer, to then become a group with said lead singer's name out front. I think the ego situation was different with the Supremes than it was with the Miracles and even the Vandellas. Not to mention, while Smokey was also successful as a songwriter in addition to the group, he frequently collaborated with his group mates on songs and production. I think Smokey cared enough about the other Miracles to keep them engaged and feeling important, whereas Diana, purposeful or absentmindedly, was looking for opportunities to distance herself and elevate her position beyond that of Flo and Mary. It all came down to managing egos. I think the Miracles, like the Tops, did a much better job of it.
    while i don't deny Diana's ego, i think the situation with the backing vocals was more of unawareness. even Jean had no idea which songs M and C sang on versus the As or other studio singers. when asked in an interview by Midnight Johnny, she said something like "well it's M and C, they were the supremes." the recording times were totally split up so neither D or J would know when m and C were pulled into the studio, weren't, were but then other voices added, were recorded but then wiped, etc. Of course this isn't to say Diana didn't recognize that the voices on the song certainly didn't sound like M or C but i don't know that she knew what all was going on.

    Miracles - didn't the other members participate quite a bit with song writing and all? i know very little about the history or details of the group. Can anyone mention ANY miracles songs where the miracles are NOT included on the recording? outside of maybe a solo recording by Smokey on one of the lps. but the Spinners or the men from the Elgins were not brought in to replace the men. were the As ever added?

    my understanding is the rest of the miracles did write and maybe produce, they were on all the recordings, etc. So they were not dismissed or treated as irrelevant as the female singers were in other groups

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post

    Miracles - didn't the other members participate quite a bit with song writing and all? i know very little about the history or details of the group. Can anyone mention ANY miracles songs where the miracles are NOT included on the recording? outside of maybe a solo recording by Smokey on one of the lps. but the Spinners or the men from the Elgins were not brought in to replace the men. were the As ever added?

    my understanding is the rest of the miracles did write and maybe produce, they were on all the recordings, etc. So they were not dismissed or treated as irrelevant as the female singers were in other groups
    In his book, Smokey wrote that he encouraged the other members of the group to write and would split songwriting royalties with them if they participated in a writing session, even if he didn't use their ideas.

    Smokey also mentioned that there was some strain with Pete Moore near the end of his time in the group, which he attributed to negativity spread by Pete's wife.

    I think additional vocalists might have been on I'M THE ONE YOU NEED but I'm not sure.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    In his book, Smokey wrote that he encouraged the other members of the group to write and would split songwriting royalties with them if they participated in a writing session, even if he didn't use their ideas.

    Smokey also mentioned that there was some strain with Pete Moore near the end of his time in the group, which he attributed to negativity spread by Pete's wife.

    I think additional vocalists might have been on I'M THE ONE YOU NEED but I'm not sure.
    I'm the One You Need sounded like Smokey with no Miracles but with different singers [[much like Mickey's Monkey, which had MR&TV's and, I believe, the Four Tops, correct me if I'm wrong). Those were the only songs that I didn't recognize the Miracles on. They might've been on but since they were both HDH recordings, the background vocals were kinda muddled [[especially on I'm the One You Need). Wouldn't that have been interesting for the Supremes to cover btw? I always wanted to hear Diana shouting on that one! The J5 did a decent cover of it years later.

    As for how the Supremes started, it's interesting that of the groups that got signed, it was them, the Marvelettes and the Temptations where it started with more than one lead singer. Only issue with the Supremes is that they didn't necessarily find success with multiple leads like the Tempts or easily interchangeable like in the Marvelettes where it was Gladys first before it switched to Wanda.

    The Supremes didn't stand out initially despite being the first all female band signed whereas when the Marvelettes and M&TV's signed, the leads were very distinctive. The Marvelettes had Gladys and Wanda, M&TV's had Martha being backed by, initially, Rosalind and Annette [[before Betty replaced her) like a choir leading a gospel singer. Then there was the Supremes: Flo the sassy belter, Mary the sexy crooner, Diana the pop kitten. But initially, nothing was happening, mainly because Motown didn't know what to do with them and Diana was singing most of the leads once they got signed to Motown [[outside of Flo doing leads and Mary doing a few) but no hits because nothing was gelling until HDH told Diana to sing low and dry on WDOLG which turned their fortunes around.

    So unlike the other groups, the Supremes were a group that really did needed development and better utilization for their parts. Diana in front with jazzy Mary and soulful Flo made them unique. It was like splitting up the vocal stylings of Dionne Warwick into three different women. Berry did indeed try to get Diana out of the group. It was eventually going to happen anyway because with the Supremes all being very young, he knew he could easily mold Diana into what he wanted her to be even if she didn't necessarily agree with the direction at times. But because she wanted to be a STAR, she agreed to go there whereas Flo on the other hand began to reject this. The other groups didn't have a STAR. Even Martha paled in comparison to Diana. Even when the group rode the wave of success together happily [[especially when they started scoring number one hits like it was eating grapes), it was clear Diana was gonna break out. You can see it in the first Ed Sullivan show and the T.A.M.I. Show in particular though at that point, all three of them enjoyed the spotlight so all three of them shined but Diana definitely had that ambition in her eyes more.

    I just wish things weren't so messy as Diana began to realizing she can do this all by herself and even then it wasn't easy [[as we saw the up and down fortunes of her solo career in the 70s).

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Midnight, I disagree with a couple of things.

    I have a hard time imagining Gordy wanting Diana out of the Supremes and not getting his way. I think if Gordy really thought Diana was ready [[she wasn't, IMO) he wouldn't have cared whether she wanted to go or not. He was going to get his way.

    I think it's wishful thinking that Diana cared whether or not Mary and Cindy were singing on any particular record. By that point, any "group" feelings Diana had probably died when Flo left. She knew what the plan was for DRATS, that it was her test run at a solo career without technically leaving the group. The big head she had been getting prior to Flo's exit was now officially as big as a blimp. She didn't have time to consider or care about Mary and Cindy's background duties and as a result she likely felt no betrayal about them not being on "Love Child".

    As far as the Miracles go, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any negative feelings about Smokey's name going in front. I don't think they were ever a group where the members consistently traded leads. Yes, Claudette, Bobby and Ronnie sang leads here and there [[I really enjoy Ronnie's singing, btw) but I think Smokey was always the group's front person. The issue with the Supremes was that they started out as a group with three [[or four) lead singers, trading leads back and forth, to becoming a group with an official lead singer, to then become a group with said lead singer's name out front. I think the ego situation was different with the Supremes than it was with the Miracles and even the Vandellas. Not to mention, while Smokey was also successful as a songwriter in addition to the group, he frequently collaborated with his group mates on songs and production. I think Smokey cared enough about the other Miracles to keep them engaged and feeling important, whereas Diana, purposeful or absentmindedly, was looking for opportunities to distance herself and elevate her position beyond that of Flo and Mary. It all came down to managing egos. I think the Miracles, like the Tops, did a much better job of it.
    The Miracles had some issues but they didn't put it all on front street. The Supremes were at one point the most famous group in the world so naturally all the gossip columns would talk about them [[and them only). I think Smokey did feel bad that as their career grew that his group partners weren't seeing the money he was getting and told them to write so they could feel equal so there wouldn't be no problems. I think there was tons of drama with MR&TV's but it wasn't publicized. As we saw with the Marvelettes, it was DRAMA CENTRAL with them, be it nervous breakdowns, illnesses, drug abuse/alcoholism, egos clashing. They might've not had the same hangups as the Supremes but there was definitely trouble, especially when Wanda began to act like she was such a star that she could skip a small concert and only show up for the bigger venue [[much like David Ruffin later on as the Temptations' stature grew). Their problems were due to the lead singer acting a fool, the Supremes' was due to the lead singer gradually getting more attention than her partners and seeing that relationship fraying that way that the one NOT the lead singer [[Flo) decided to do exactly what Wanda and David was doing.

  8. #58
    As lead singer and therefore main focus of the group i think she thoroughly deserved to have her name out front.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    As lead singer and therefore main focus of the group i think she thoroughly deserved to have her name out front.
    Who, Martha Reeves? Yes, I agree. Diana, I do not.

    I see the plan Gordy set forth and I understand it. That being said, when you're an equal member of something and only one of the members gets their name on the company sign, that's unfair. Diana didn't start the Supremes alone. It was not her group. Her position in the group was that of lead singer. Lead singer does not entitle you to leader of the group. Ask Otis. Lol

    If Gordy wanted name recognition, he could have easily changed the name to Diana Ross, Flo Ballard and Mary Wilson, or Ross, Ballard and Wilson. Of course I jest, as there is no way Gordy would have ever, but it was the only fair name change. It was just one more example of Gordy, and by extension Diana, not taking anyone else's feelings into consideration other than their own. And then people act shocked that Flo and Mary resented these things.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Who, Martha Reeves? Yes, I agree. Diana, I do not.

    I see the plan Gordy set forth and I understand it. That being said, when you're an equal member of something and only one of the members gets their name on the company sign, that's unfair. Diana didn't start the Supremes alone. It was not her group. Her position in the group was that of lead singer. Lead singer does not entitle you to leader of the group. Ask Otis. Lol

    If Gordy wanted name recognition, he could have easily changed the name to Diana Ross, Flo Ballard and Mary Wilson, or Ross, Ballard and Wilson. Of course I jest, as there is no way Gordy would have ever, but it was the only fair name change. It was just one more example of Gordy, and by extension Diana, not taking anyone else's feelings into consideration other than their own. And then people act shocked that Flo and Mary resented these things.
    Since when was the music business about being fair and nice?. Diana’s unique and soulful pop voice was the key to financial gain and acceptance. Having her name out front was a natural progression and acknowledgment of her global appeal.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Since when was the music business about being fair and nice?.
    Probably never. However, that doesn't negate unfairness simply because other people aren't fair or nice.

    Having her name out front wasn't a natural progression, or every lead singer of every group would have eventually made the transition. Her name out front was a calculated move to separate Diana from the Supremes and get the public used to her name by the time she went solo. Renaming the group wasn't a prize Diana deserved for a job well done. Like I said, I understand the plan, but that doesn't make the plan fair or right.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    As lead singer and therefore main focus of the group i think she thoroughly deserved to have her name out front.
    Once they did it the group declined. Fewer hits... coincidence?

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Who, Martha Reeves? Yes, I agree. Diana, I do not.

    I see the plan Gordy set forth and I understand it. That being said, when you're an equal member of something and only one of the members gets their name on the company sign, that's unfair. Diana didn't start the Supremes alone. It was not her group. Her position in the group was that of lead singer. Lead singer does not entitle you to leader of the group. Ask Otis. Lol

    If Gordy wanted name recognition, he could have easily changed the name to Diana Ross, Flo Ballard and Mary Wilson, or Ross, Ballard and Wilson. Of course I jest, as there is no way Gordy would have ever, but it was the only fair name change. It was just one more example of Gordy, and by extension Diana, not taking anyone else's feelings into consideration other than their own. And then people act shocked that Flo and Mary resented these things.
    Since when was the music business about being fair and nice?

    Unfortunately I agree. No such thing as "fair" in the music business. The only way you get "fair" is a judge and/or jury. Otherwise "fair" is a leprechaun riding a unicorn over a rainbow.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Once they did it the group declined. Fewer hits... coincidence?
    To be fair, it's not like the group was releasing tier 1 singles consistently post "Reflections" as they were doing prior to "Reflections". The loss of HDH was pretty hard. Perhaps the group should have been renamed Holland Dozier Holland and the Supremes. The group as a unit with and without Diana Ross, and Diana Ross as a solo artist, never had the consistent consecutive sellers than when HDH was helming the ship.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    To be fair, it's not like the group was releasing tier 1 singles consistently post "Reflections" as they were doing prior to "Reflections". The loss of HDH was pretty hard. Perhaps the group should have been renamed Holland Dozier Holland and the Supremes. The group as a unit with and without Diana Ross, and Diana Ross as a solo artist, never had the consistent consecutive sellers than when HDH was helming the ship.
    Oh, I knew you'd reply. My only disappointment is you didn't suggest Shantel Baker and the Supremes with Diana Ross. How.Couldn't.You???

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    [/COLOR]
    Unfortunately I agree. No such thing as "fair" in the music business. The only way you get "fair" is a judge and/or jury. Otherwise "fair" is a leprechaun riding a unicorn over a rainbow.
    Oh what do you know? Just because no one respects Shantel Baker's place in music history doesn't mean the business is unfair.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Oh, I knew you'd reply. My only disappointment is you didn't suggest Shantel Baker and the Supremes with Diana Ross. How.Couldn't.You???
    As you'll see, you spoke too soon.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    [/COLOR]
    Unfortunately I agree. No such thing as "fair" in the music business. The only way you get "fair" is a judge and/or jury. Otherwise "fair" is a leprechaun riding a unicorn over a rainbow.
    I like that quote lol. Where is it from?.
    No group can sustain that level of success indefinitely, and with Diana’s name outfront they continued to do pretty well. Reflections, Love Child, I’m Gonna Make You Love Me, TCB, TV specials…….TARZAN.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Oh what do you know? Just because no one respects Shantel Baker's place in music history doesn't mean the business is unfair.
    You're just afraid to admit the truth!

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I like that quote lol. Where is it from?.
    My brain..........

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    My brain..........
    OMG!!! You must have a really nice one.
    Last edited by Ollie9; Today at 05:08 PM.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    OMG!!! You just have a really nice one.
    So many inappropriate responses I could type.
    I'll just go with "thank you". I don't want to get on Ralph's bad side.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    So many inappropriate responses I could type.
    I'll just go with "thank you". I don't want to get on Ralph's bad side.
    Dare You…….

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Dare You…….
    You first.

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