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  1. #1

    did they HAVE to rename the group?

    would Diana Ross have still become MISS DIANA ROSS if they'd left the name of the group simply The Supremes? i don't doubt that she still would have become a solo act either way. was there sufficient name recognition of the lead singer of the biggest female act in history anyway?

  2. #2
    All I've read about it suggests it was a pure money grab by Berry - charge more for the same three people. I've also read it was a smoke-screen to catapult Diana and possibly Smokey's solo careers while squeezing any remaining value out of the group names. Either way it was about the money. Always is.

  3. #3
    funny thing - when I saw the name of this thread, I thought it was going to be about the renaming from Primettes to Supremes, which made me think, good question - DID they actually need to rename the group, and how would music history have felt different if they hadn't?

    I could envisage 'where did our love go' and 'baby love' by the Primettes, as the 'ettes' suffix was still a thing around 1964, but, by the time you reached 'you can't hurry love' by the Primettes and 'love child' by Diana Ross & the Primettes, it would have begun to feel rather dated for the late 1960s, just as it was for the Marvelettes.

    And as for a 1970s 'nathan jones' by the "new" Primettes!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    All I've read about it suggests it was a pure money grab by Berry - charge more for the same three people. I've also read it was a smoke-screen to catapult Diana and possibly Smokey's solo careers while squeezing any remaining value out of the group names. Either way it was about the money. Always is.
    This could be Berry at his best in cleverness and illustrates so well why and how he was a success.

    And of course - without money incentives: there's no such thing as Motown.
    and
    Mary and Florence and Diana, while darling angels on stage, weren't in it to perform for free.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    would Diana Ross have still become MISS DIANA ROSS if they'd left the name of the group simply The Supremes? i don't doubt that she still would have become a solo act either way. was there sufficient name recognition of the lead singer of the biggest female act in history anyway?
    I think it was necessary. Clearly she was standing front and center when performing and was doing all the leads on the records. To not legitimize it that way would've made her come across as a ball hog.

    This was Diana Ross with her backups: The Supremes. No two ways about it.

  6. #6
    In my opinion , no..
    But BG wanted Diana out of the group asap but DR wanted to stay
    I think she felt loyalty to the group and , I don't think she felt she was ready
    So to me , the last two years , were to prepare the audience for her departure..
    TCB was a stepping stone for her...it seemed the show was built around her...
    But even when she did go solo.
    BG kept her off TV for a year...
    Imo.it hurt her solo debute.....
    I always thought she was to make her debuted on Sullivan.
    From what I remember the Sullivan people were angry and then cancelled all further Motown related appearances.
    Not good business..
    Launch one act at the expense of everything and everyone else..
    Don't take me wrong .
    Ross had the talent
    I think she would have made her mark regardless....
    Just my opinion .Elvis out grew col parker. Really oss was soon outgrowing BG.
    Last edited by daviddh; 01-19-2025 at 04:41 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    would Diana Ross have still become MISS DIANA ROSS if they'd left the name of the group simply The Supremes? i don't doubt that she still would have become a solo act either way. was there sufficient name recognition of the lead singer of the biggest female act in history anyway?
    Yes. Let's be honest, as the act progressed, it didn't matter if nobody knew Diana's name, they knew her face and her voice. Even with name recognition, we know that her solo career jumped off with a half full house and a single that made the top 20 on the Hot 100 by the hair on her chiny, chin, chin. I look at it like this: if the Supremes had never happened and Diana had signed with Motown around 69, with Gordy seeing all the possibilities of a superstar in her, the 70s would have turned out the same way either way for her career. Perhaps the only wrinkle in that would be whether or not she could have gotten the Lady Sings role with such a short time in the business. That role did go a long way into securing her legacy as a solo act.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    All I've read about it suggests it was a pure money grab by Berry - charge more for the same three people. I've also read it was a smoke-screen to catapult Diana and possibly Smokey's solo careers while squeezing any remaining value out of the group names. Either way it was about the money. Always is.
    I still don't believe this is true. I believe it was "the company line" if any questions were asked, but my brain finds it hard to believe that anyone was willing to pay extra when Martha and the Vandellas added the name Reeves to the group. Likewise, I can't see the Copa and various venues that had previously booked the Supremes and Miracles paying double because one member's name is suddenly fronting the group. My belief is that these changes were solely centered around the change to DRATS. Changing the Miracles and Martha and the Vandellas around the same time takes some of the air out of "who does Diana think she is", especially when that name change occurred around Flo's exit. It was all damage control and public relations. Smart move, IMO.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I still don't believe this is true. I believe it was "the company line" if any questions were asked, but my brain finds it hard to believe that anyone was willing to pay extra when Martha and the Vandellas added the name Reeves to the group. Likewise, I can't see the Copa and various venues that had previously booked the Supremes and Miracles paying double because one member's name is suddenly fronting the group. My belief is that these changes were solely centered around the change to DRATS. Changing the Miracles and Martha and the Vandellas around the same time takes some of the air out of "who does Diana think she is", especially when that name change occurred around Flo's exit. It was all damage control and public relations. Smart move, IMO.
    Ranran, I also doubt that the Copa and other venues would pay extra for Smokey Robinson & the Miracles, Martha Reeves & the Vandellas or even Diana Ross & the Supremes in 1967.

    But the Miracles became Smokey Robinson & the Miracles as early as 1965 with their Going to a Go Go album [although their singles were The Miracles]. Do you think Berry Gordy was already planning for a possible name change to Diana Ross & the Supremes or for Diana Ross to go solo [in the near future] in 1965 or early 1966?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Ranran, I also doubt that the Copa and other venues would pay extra for Smokey Robinson & the Miracles, Martha Reeves & the Vandellas or even Diana Ross & the Supremes in 1967.

    But the Miracles became Smokey Robinson & the Miracles as early as 1965 with their Going to a Go Go album [although their singles were The Miracles]. Do you think Berry Gordy was already planning for a possible name change to Diana Ross & the Supremes or for Diana Ross to go solo [in the near future] in 1965 or early 1966?
    Ooh, good point Luck! No, I think it had more to do with Smokey being Smokey. He wasn't just the lead singer of the Miracles. I'm guessing here without the stats in front of me, but I think it might be safe to say that by the time of the GTAGG album in late 65, Smokey was the single most successful artist at Motown, between the hit songs he had written for others in addition to the hits he had on himself and his group. Two years before HDH got their names highlighted on the Supremes Sing HDH album, Smokey had his name on the Tempts Sing Smokey. So making the decision to single him out was likely Gordy patting his good friend and trusted ally on the back. Smokey was very important to Berry. Makes me wonder what Gordy would have done had there been a point where he had to choose between Diana or Smokey. [[And since they both slept with her- of course not at the same time- do you think they were sleezy enough to compare notes? I've never understood friends who sleep with people their friend had first. Eww.)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I still don't believe this is true. I believe it was "the company line" if any questions were asked, but my brain finds it hard to believe that anyone was willing to pay extra when Martha and the Vandellas added the name Reeves to the group. Likewise, I can't see the Copa and various venues that had previously booked the Supremes and Miracles paying double because one member's name is suddenly fronting the group. My belief is that these changes were solely centered around the change to DRATS. Changing the Miracles and Martha and the Vandellas around the same time takes some of the air out of "who does Diana think she is", especially when that name change occurred around Flo's exit. It was all damage control and public relations. Smart move, IMO.
    Very few people know the real story, but in human decision making, rarely is only one factor at play in a decision. It could have been Berry trying to get more money, a smoke screen to push Ross out front, urging by Smokey who already was doing or wanted to continue to do the same, plus who knows what else. Typically one argument/piece of evidence only triggers the decision. I would also add to this mix that Gordy had his pulse on the music industry and by late 66/67 sensed [correctly or incorrectly] that "girl groups" in the style he propelled forward at Motown were on their way out.
    Last edited by thanxal; 01-20-2025 at 09:16 AM. Reason: gave Berry too much credit

  12. #12
    How long was it Martha and The Vandellas? I wonder what the logic was for this naming approach?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rovereab View Post
    How long was it Martha and The Vandellas? I wonder what the logic was for this naming approach?
    MRATV was started with the Honey Chile release in Oct 67. so basically the same time DRATS was launched

    SRATM was a couple years earlier. Going to a Go Go lp was released in Nov 65 and was using the longer name

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rovereab View Post
    How long was it Martha and The Vandellas? I wonder what the logic was for this naming approach?
    From 1962 - 1967.

    In their LIVE WIRE! collection, the notes say that Berry put Martha's name in the group in case one of the other girls quit. I didn't quite understand this but maybe they had some hesitation about recording whereas Martha didn't.

    And of course, he also had Jr. Walker and the All Stars.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    From 1962 - 1967.

    In their LIVE WIRE! collection, the notes say that Berry put Martha's name in the group in case one of the other girls quit. I didn't quite understand this but maybe they had some hesitation about recording whereas Martha didn't.

    And of course, he also had Jr. Walker and the All Stars.
    Smokey Robinson and the Miracles
    Gladys Knight and the Pips
    Jr Walker and the All Stars
    Diana Ross and the Supremes
    Martha Reeves and the Vandellas

    it is interesting that in all of the books, everyone agrees that with the Temps, there was "no 1 member greater than the rest." maybe because the Temps had for so long had 2 primary leads, with David and Eddie. and occasionally Paul.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Ranran, I also doubt that the Copa and other venues would pay extra for Smokey Robinson & the Miracles, Martha Reeves & the Vandellas or even Diana Ross & the Supremes in 1967.

    But the Miracles became Smokey Robinson & the Miracles as early as 1965 with their Going to a Go Go album [although their singles were The Miracles]. Do you think Berry Gordy was already planning for a possible name change to Diana Ross & the Supremes or for Diana Ross to go solo [in the near future] in 1965 or early 1966?
    it's possible you MIGHT have been able to negotiate more money but sort of like my initial question, the group was probably able to justify that on their own due to the rising sales and popularity. booking the Sups in 1969 was simply more expensive than what it took to book them in 65 or 63. MAYBE they could have hyped up "diana ross" in the negotiations and called out her incredible talent and superstar nature. having the name in the act, might have given a little more weight to this. but let's face it, her dynamic stage presence spoke for itself

  17. #17
    I always found it interesting all of the changes happened one right after the other in 1967. Between the name changes, Flo leaving the Supremes, David leaving the Temptations, HDH leaving, Betty leaving the Vandellas, Gladys the Marvelettes etc. I imagine it was a stressful time to be working at Motown lol.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I always found it interesting all of the changes happened one right after the other in 1967. Between the name changes, Flo leaving the Supremes, David leaving the Temptations, HDH leaving, Betty leaving the Vandellas, Gladys the Marvelettes etc. I imagine it was a stressful time to be working at Motown lol.
    great point. i think a lot of this can be summed up by "growing pains" albeit extreme ones

    with the massive explosion of popularity and revenue from this juggernaut called The Supremes, so much money flooded into motown.

    1. HDH felt that since they were the writers and producers of all the Sup hits [[and how the success of the Sups was used as a blueprint for other motown acts that HDH and others produced), they should get more of the pie

    2. the pressure to continue the momentum of The Supremes clearly destroyed the group itself. Diana's rise within that structure, Flo's deterioration, the name change, etc

    3. The temps were the next most successful group and David thought their path should mirror that of the supremes. but unfortunately there were several key things missing: 1) David was very talented but he did not have the range Diana did 2) Diana's unflagging drive for perfection also matched her immense talent, a perfect combination and again, something David [[or pretty much anyone else) had and 3) Berry's undying support for the sups

    4. other groups were being unfairly compared with the sups and Diana. clearly Martha suffered from this situation and the inability to craft her own career direction. and the drugs and problems she experienced certainly were at least partly driven by this. and then how those drugs and problems effected the overall group

    5. Gladys Horton probably is a bit of an anomaly here in this list. she was expecting a baby and from various accounts was VERY determined that her child not have an absentee parent, given Glady's personal experiences with the foster care system. plus her child was special needs. PLUS Wanda was already starting to deteriorate and was becoming more of the primary lead singer. so the nonsense of motown and the Ms, Gladys probably thought "i'm over it"

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Smokey Robinson and the Miracles
    Gladys Knight and the Pips
    Jr Walker and the All Stars
    Diana Ross and the Supremes
    Martha Reeves and the Vandellas

    it is interesting that in all of the books, everyone agrees that with the Temps, there was "no 1 member greater than the rest." maybe because the Temps had for so long had 2 primary leads, with David and Eddie. and occasionally Paul.
    And yet, the 4 Tops never became Levi Stubbs and the Tops because of Levi's loyalty to the group. He even had a chance for a solo career, but the Tops were important to him and he was loyal to the group. If there was any infighting in the group, they seemed to be able to keep it quiet. And they stayed together til the end with only sickness and death causing them to leave

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    And yet, the 4 Tops never became Levi Stubbs and the Tops because of Levi's loyalty to the group. He even had a chance for a solo career, but the Tops were important to him and he was loyal to the group. If there was any infighting in the group, they seemed to be able to keep it quiet. And they stayed together til the end with only sickness and death causing them to leave
    i adore the Tops. first of all, Levi was always sexy! lol so there's that. but i just like their music better than the Temps. and that's just personal preferences but i always found their albums compelling. Even Soul Spin or Now! lol

    and the unity just adds to the overall appeal of the group

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    And yet, the 4 Tops never became Levi Stubbs and the Tops because of Levi's loyalty to the group. He even had a chance for a solo career, but the Tops were important to him and he was loyal to the group. If there was any infighting in the group, they seemed to be able to keep it quiet. And they stayed together til the end with only sickness and death causing them to leave
    and the M's never became Wanda Rodgers and the Marvelettes. my assumption is that 1) the group also had 2 leads and 2) motown had long since written the group off. there was basically 0 effort to advance the M's into the big supper club circuit. and Gladys even discussed this. she states that the M's never had the singing chops of the Sups or MRATV to do all of that MOR stuff. it wasn't who they were, it wasn't the type of music they were good at, it wasn't their "brand." and so she was basically inline with motown's relegating them to the theater act. Gladys said THEIR swim lane were the big black theaters. The Apollo, the Howard, etc.

    the M's did sort of undergo the typical motown polishing, becoming more sequined and more glamorous. given the rise of more traditional r&b music in the later 60s and that the M's really fit in with the Apollo crowd, maybe they should have gone more in that direction with their identity and brand. become more of the soul sisters rather than modeled after the prim and proper Sups.

  22. #22
    Yes it was necessary...the plan was to remove her from the group, and launch her as a Superstar.... the group had long time fans that would support a continuing group....the exposure of the new lead singer in the TV debut on Sullivan was BIG...and the biggest TV audience got to hear a explosive new record...I couldn't find LADDER for 3 weeks...it was always sold out.
    There must have been a lot of frazzled nerves, praying and hand wringing when Reach Out and Touch got a lukewarm reception...it was not a great choice for a single...it must have been a very intense period for all involved till Ain't No Mountain got to #1.
    The rest of the story is a bunch of what if's, perhaps and split opinions on decisions that were made with the careers of both DR as a solo, and the Supremes. Berry succeeded in creating his superstar, and the dreams they shared came true...but it wasn't a non stop train of great success every time out...DR's solo records hit #1 or missed the top 10 completely.
    Lack of AM radio support killed the 70's Supremes...despite many TV appearances the Jean groups single release's were not getting picked up...and very often speedy, brassy live TV performances of the current singles were not inspiring folks to run to the record store either...this was a major problem in the Scherrie years...what were excellent studio tracks were represented on TV by rushed, brassy and in the MSS era screetchy TV work.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    Berry succeeded in creating his superstar, and the dreams they shared came true...but it wasn't a non stop train of great success every time out
    The old adage "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" comes to mind. Arguably, all these changes helped launch Diana Ross, but they also arguably began the downfall of Motown. Nothing was the same after and it wasn't long [for the music business] before Motown was flailing.

    Of course, we can't underestimate the impact of HDH leaving. Does anyone know if their leaving was in anyway related to this topic, or was it all about the disagreements with Berry over money and credits?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    The old adage "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" comes to mind. Arguably, all these changes helped launch Diana Ross, but they also arguably began the downfall of Motown. Nothing was the same after and it wasn't long [for the music business] before Motown was flailing.

    Of course, we can't underestimate the impact of HDH leaving. Does anyone know if their leaving was in anyway related to this topic, or was it all about the disagreements with Berry over money and credits?
    you could say though that 70 and 71 were as strong as the label's peak years in the mid 60s. the J5 had become the supremes - the labels top selling group. the sups had become the Vandellas - the strong #2 group. The temps were still selling very strong. Stevie was still selling as Stevie had been but was starting to make his own music. GNATPs were doing well with If I was your woman and other soap opera soul tunes, a bunch of one hits like Ed Star, undisputed truth just like you had Kim Weston, Brenda, Isleys, etc.

    the downfall seems more around the loss of focus on music. if they'd not be sidetracked with that, the label probably would have continued to innovate. but without LSTB, Diana Ross would have flatlined as a singer. would have had hits but wouldn't have transcended it to the mega realms of superstardom.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    you could say though that 70 and 71 were as strong as the label's peak years in the mid 60s. the J5 had become the supremes - the labels top selling group. the sups had become the Vandellas - the strong #2 group. The temps were still selling very strong. Stevie was still selling as Stevie had been but was starting to make his own music. GNATPs were doing well with If I was your woman and other soap opera soul tunes, a bunch of one hits like Ed Star, undisputed truth just like you had Kim Weston, Brenda, Isleys, etc.

    the downfall seems more around the loss of focus on music. if they'd not be sidetracked with that, the label probably would have continued to innovate. but without LSTB, Diana Ross would have flatlined as a singer. would have had hits but wouldn't have transcended it to the mega realms of superstardom.
    The blip in 70 and 71 is noted, but wouldn't you agree the overall trajectory wasn't positive [for the music. I've never considered Motown a film-making company]. To me it slowly lost relevance and presence after the turmoils of 67-68.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Of course, we can't underestimate the impact of HDH leaving. Does anyone know if their leaving was in anyway related to this topic, or was it all about the disagreements with Berry over money and credits?
    Their leaving was totally unrelated to the name changes. They wanted a bigger piece of the pie for all the hits they created and Gordy was unwilling to give them what they wanted. As a result, they staged a work slowdown, left the label, and neither Motown nor HDH were never the same again. I think it was the first major screwup on Gordy's part. He had the hottest songwriting/producing team in the business. How do you let them get away?

  27. #27
    I totally agree bradsupremes, it certainly looks like Gordy cut his nose off to spite his face.

    However, I feel that Frank Wilson becoming more involved was a good thing. I wonder if that would have happened if HDH had stayed?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Their leaving was totally unrelated to the name changes. They wanted a bigger piece of the pie for all the hits they created and Gordy was unwilling to give them what they wanted. As a result, they staged a work slowdown, left the label, and neither Motown nor HDH were never the same again. I think it was the first major screwup on Gordy's part. He had the hottest songwriting/producing team in the business. How do you let them get away?
    I wonder just how much a bigger piece of the pie HDH actually wanted. As proved when Diana departed, BG and the company had it’s financial limits.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Their leaving was totally unrelated to the name changes. They wanted a bigger piece of the pie for all the hits they created and Gordy was unwilling to give them what they wanted. As a result, they staged a work slowdown, left the label, and neither Motown nor HDH were never the same again. I think it was the first major screwup on Gordy's part. He had the hottest songwriting/producing team in the business. How do you let them get away?
    That was my assumption. As to your question, it either was Berry being stubborn or Motown really didn't have the money HDH was asking for as Ollie wonders. "Superstar" employees in an organization often overestimate how much the institution will shell out to keep them around. If egos then get involved [[which they always do) people end up walking away in a huff. Human decision making ain't perfect!

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Their leaving was totally unrelated to the name changes. They wanted a bigger piece of the pie for all the hits they created and Gordy was unwilling to give them what they wanted. As a result, they staged a work slowdown, left the label, and neither Motown nor HDH were never the same again. I think it was the first major screwup on Gordy's part. He had the hottest songwriting/producing team in the business. How do you let them get away?
    of course i agree that neither HDH nor Motown was ever the same again. but at the time, the label actually went on to have some of it's biggest successes. October 68 was one of those big times. 5 motown songs in the top ten, Love child which outsold any HDH Sups song. the whole J5 phenomenon was outside of HDH too

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Their leaving was totally unrelated to the name changes. They wanted a bigger piece of the pie for all the hits they created and Gordy was unwilling to give them what they wanted. As a result, they staged a work slowdown, left the label, and neither Motown nor HDH were never the same again. I think it was the first major screwup on Gordy's part. He had the hottest songwriting/producing team in the business. How do you let them get away?
    didn't they also want their own label at motown? or was it pretty much just $? various stories have alluded to different things, one of which being that the team wanted more autonomy. but i've also heard that Eddie was pretty much just focusing on $.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    of course i agree that neither HDH nor Motown was ever the same again. but at the time, the label actually went on to have some of it's biggest successes. October 68 was one of those big times. 5 motown songs in the top ten, Love child which outsold any HDH Sups song. the whole J5 phenomenon was outside of HDH too
    But those instances weren't consistent. There a lot of dry spells in between. I know Motown touted that moment when five of their songs were in the top 10 at the end of 1968 as how they were doing better than ever, but I frankly think it was done to show they didn't HDH. And it's true, a lot of amazing material came out after HDH left but when three of your biggest acts suffer [[Four Tops, Supremes, Vandellas), you aren't doing better as a label.

  33. #33
    Couple of things:

    I have never heard how fan mail worked at Motown. Was someone in charge of that? Were tabs kept? Was anyone paying attention?
    Wondering if Diana was right away and consistently getting a mountain of mail compared to the other two.....

    And
    I wonder if the name 'Gladys Knight and the Pips' influenced Diana to think a certain way.
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 01-23-2025 at 11:52 AM.

  34. #34
    HDH:

    Why do I get the feeling that had HDH stayed we'd be writing that the problem was they milked the cow for too long and the Supremes sound got stale.

    Judging from the direction HDH took with their own labels and their resulting style and song content, they might have been better suited for switching to writing for the incoming J5 and that likely would've been their latest assignment to focus on anyway.

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    HDH:

    Why do I get the feeling that had HDH stayed we'd be writing that the problem was they milked the cow for too long and the Supremes sound got stale.

    Judging from the direction HDH took with their own labels and their resulting style and song content, they might have been better suited for switching to writing for the incoming J5 and that likely would've been their latest assignment to focus on anyway.
    this is a great topic and SO many what if's with it.

    i would say it's hard to judge what they might have done at motown based on what they actually did at Invictus. at motown they were completely safe financially. they were totally able to push into new sounds like Reach Out I'll Be There and Reflections. the safety net of motown gave them this freedom

    with invictus, they were launching a new label and needed money. i've not paid too much attention to most of the Invictus acts but do have a Honey Cone greatest hits cd. and of course know of Band Of Gold. my general impression is that they were excellent and safe pop songs. with Honey Cone, they did sort of push into a feminist tone and vibe so they sort of were pushing things a bit. but i'm not aware of anything as groundbreaking or innovative as Reach out or Reflections.

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    this is a great topic and SO many what if's with it.

    i would say it's hard to judge what they might have done at motown based on what they actually did at Invictus. at motown they were completely safe financially. they were totally able to push into new sounds like Reach Out I'll Be There and Reflections. the safety net of motown gave them this freedom

    with invictus, they were launching a new label and needed money. i've not paid too much attention to most of the Invictus acts but do have a Honey Cone greatest hits cd. and of course know of Band Of Gold. my general impression is that they were excellent and safe pop songs. with Honey Cone, they did sort of push into a feminist tone and vibe so they sort of were pushing things a bit. but i'm not aware of anything as groundbreaking or innovative as Reach out or Reflections.
    Lamont Dozier had talked about this. At Motown, they were able to be creative artists in terms of producing and songwriting. That was their sole focus so they were able to try things out and spend whatever time they needed on creating songs. When they started Invictus/Hot Wax, a good deal of their time was spent actually running the business. Much like what happened to Gordy when he started Motown, it didn't allow them much time to actually get into the studio to produce and write like they had previously done.

    Had they stayed with Motown, they would have simply evolved to what new sounds were developing at the time. Would their streak with the Sups have continued? Maybe? But I don't think the quality of their work would have diminished. They would have adjusted similar to what they did at Invictus but had more time to hone their craft.

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Lamont Dozier had talked about this. At Motown, they were able to be creative artists in terms of producing and songwriting. That was their sole focus so they were able to try things out and spend whatever time they needed on creating songs. When they started Invictus/Hot Wax, a good deal of their time was spent actually running the business. Much like what happened to Gordy when he started Motown, it didn't allow them much time to actually get into the studio to produce and write like they had previously done.

    Had they stayed with Motown, they would have simply evolved to what new sounds were developing at the time. Would their streak with the Sups have continued? Maybe? But I don't think the quality of their work would have diminished. They would have adjusted similar to what they did at Invictus but had more time to hone their craft.
    makes for a very fun What If. let's say HDH was still around when Diana left the sups. who would work with whom then?

    my bet is that HDH would have still been beaten out by A&S if for no other reason than Gordy wanted a totally new sound for her. and his willingness to even potentially forgo his own inhouse teams for Bones shows that nothing was off the table.

    i wonder what other major outside producers tried to sweet talk gordy in late 69 of potentially working with Diana. if she actually did sessions with Bones, who else was in negotiations or initial talks?

  38. #38
    If HDH were still at Motown when Diana left the group, I think it more likely that HDH would have remained with the Supremes, while Diana would have been given a fresh start in order to drive home that she was now no longer a Supreme.

    One of the things that ticks me off about the DRATS period is that Smokey was cutting some great tunes on the Miracles. One of my absolute favs is "Baby, Baby Don't Cry". Smokey goes into the studio with Diana and the "girls" post "Love Child"'s massive success, and he churns out..."The Composer"? What the heck was he thinking? What was Motown thinking releasing it as the follow up to "Shame", a hit record in its own right.

    The insanity.

  39. #39
    I almost keeled over from shock.....about 4 years ago, I heard THE COMPOSER on the overhead in Walgreens....I out loud said "OMG!" the young 20 something couple in front of me turned around...so I felt obligated to explain I never heard it on the radio before...even when it was new.

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    If HDH were still at Motown when Diana left the group, I think it more likely that HDH would have remained with the Supremes, while Diana would have been given a fresh start in order to drive home that she was now no longer a Supreme.

    One of the things that ticks me off about the DRATS period is that Smokey was cutting some great tunes on the Miracles. One of my absolute favs is "Baby, Baby Don't Cry". Smokey goes into the studio with Diana and the "girls" post "Love Child"'s massive success, and he churns out..."The Composer"? What the heck was he thinking? What was Motown thinking releasing it as the follow up to "Shame", a hit record in its own right.

    The insanity.
    haha well you know my POV on smokey. yes i do really enjoy some of his songs. Tracks of My Tears is just perfection and i adore it.

    maybe part of the reason i'm not a fan of his is that i'm mostly just familiar with his Sups work. i don't really have any miracles albums and have never really dug into their material. for the sups you have the huge disappointment of Composer but then I think Sunny Boy is inane and Treat Me Nice John Henry is so hokey. Then is ok but not a fav.

    It seems he was going with a pretty lightweight style for his tunes with the sups. and maybe that's the problem. the girls were in their 20s now and it's the later 60s. let's give them a stronger sound

  41. #41
    The Composer is an okay song, but The Supremes version is just too frantic, too fast. The version by Smokey Robinson and the Miracles is much slower. I'm not very fond of that version, but it would have been interesting to hear a version by the Supremes that was more similar to the Miracles version.


  42. #42
    Yikes!! what a rambling mess! Slower just makes you more aware of those strained lyrics.


    I'd compare it to a weak joke with an over worked punchline.
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 01-24-2025 at 01:23 PM.

  43. #43
    Maybe the departure of HDH was a blessing for all concerned. Did they ever write a killer song afterward??

    You know something's gone south when this is what you choose to release under your own name :


  44. #44
    Given her reputation for ruthless ambition and diva temperment, "I'm Gonna Hijack Ya, Kidnap Ya, Take What I Want" could have served as Diana's theme music back in the day before she mellowed out and became all about "I Love You" and "Thank You".

  45. #45
    I never knew Smokey recorded the Composer...I am not a big fan of much of Smokeys singing...I do like the earlier stuff best...Shop Around, You Really Got a Hold, I'll Try Something New, Mickey's Monkey and I'll admit the ballard vocals Tracks of My Tears [[I'll take Glady's first, though!) and Oooh Baby Baby are fine
    He sounds like he is straining to stay within his thin and limited range on much of the other stuff I have heard...

  46. #46
    I think "The Composer" was selected as a single solely based on the fact it was a Smokey production. I'd love to know what else was brought to Quality Control as potential singles. One would think with the success of "Love Child" and "I'm Livin' In Shame" that The Clan would have continued doing social conscious songs. Not sure what happened there. If Quality Control wanted to go with a Smokey tune, I think "He's My Sunny Boy" would have been the best choice. Plus, the Love Child LP had a lot of great options they could have pulled from like "I'll Set You Free" and "Evening Train." It's a shame "You Gave Me Love" wasn't considered either.

    I'm not sure what was going on with Quality Control at this time. They seemed to have picked a lot of misses not just on the Supremes, but with the Four Tops and the Vandellas. Obvious potential hits were overlooked and mediocre album fillers were given an A-side.

  47. #47
    I agree with everything you said Brad, minus the "Sunny Boy" part. I think with a really good punched up mix "Are You Sure Love Is the Name of This Game" would have made a better single.

    I don't know what QC was doing when the Tops and Martha and the Vandellas cuts were coming up for votes. Levi and Martha must have pissed somebody off. Interestingly, the Marvelettes were releasing some good stuff during this same period that, for whatever reason, wasn't taking off like it should. Guess Wanda had more friends in high places than just Smokey and Bobby. Or is that why her group was getting the better releases? Things that make you go "hmmm".

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