Do you agree that New jack swing killed R&B?

**homebody** · 07-13-2011, 02:18 PM

Hip hop and R&B are two seperate genres but these days some people think some rappers are R&B and R&B singers that are male are rappers.I always dislked 90's R&B and I think Motown era had the best quality of rhythm and blues,90's R&B was never really got much love as far as 80's R&B did cause no 90's R&B cause have masterpiece songs like "Caravan of love".I wish that new jack swing never existed cause I think it hurt for real soul singers who can sing to get noticed cause they started wanting singers with a thug mentality instead of a Marvin Gaye or even Al Green but why couldn't that more 80's style which still had traditional soul stay around?

**MIKEW-UK** · 07-13-2011, 03:37 PM

yes in part; it was the combination of the simplified newjackswing / hiphop sounds coupled with video....suddenly, artists did not need to perform or work their trade for years on stage, they became video artists, riding a beat laid down by some technologist....they generally could not structure a song, make arrangements, play an instrument or hold a tune. Now look where we are.....

RossHolloway · 07-13-2011, 03:49 PM

Naw, I think it was just the natural evolution of American music. For better or worse. By the 1990's music videos had been around for over a decade and I think that the looks or image of an artist became that much more important. I think with videos some artists just became more of a product than a musical artist. Hence the scandal of Black Box and Malli Vanilli. It was all about image. And I don't know if too much has changed since then.

**MIKEW-UK** · 07-13-2011, 03:53 PM

Agreed, but now the look is everything, and the art is being lost irrecoverably.....we shall never see the like of it again.

RossHolloway · 07-13-2011, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by MIKEW-UK

Agreed, but now the look is everything, and the art is being lost irrecoverably.....we shall never see the like of it again.

I think that looks are everything to the younger "pop-pure commercial market", and that includes pop, country, r&b acts, whatever. But I also think that there are plenty of artists out there that do get recognized more for their talent than their looks: like Adele for example or an Amos Lee or Anthony David or Joss Stone. They may not be known for their looks or image, but they are definitely known for their talent. It's really all a matter of what we each individually seek out to listen to or follow in the media.

**homebody** · 07-13-2011, 04:10 PM

I dont consider Beyonce,Ciara evolution or even good evolution of R&B cause you could still hae videos and soulful even like Whitney Houston in the 80's was moe soulful then them.

smark21 · 07-13-2011, 09:08 PM

I think New Jack helped breathed new life into R and B in the early to mid 90's. Many [[perhaps not here at this board) consider 90's R and B something of a golden age.

**marv2** · 07-13-2011, 09:36 PM

R&B has never died in my opinion, but it was severely injured over time by the recording companies, not a new genre of music ala "New Jack Swing", etc.

**paladin** · 07-13-2011, 09:42 PM

Absolutely not. New Jack was simply another evolution/progression of what we like to refer to as music. A better question may be did video kill R&B ? I would still say no because technology only provides shortcuts for those who are less talented, as does video.

To paraphrase R Holloway, talent trumps tech every time.

Since its a new sound and we don't know what it is, we label it, and then move on to the next thing. New Jack was popular enough to withstand the test of time and now when we hear it, right or wrong we say, oh thats New Jack Swing......just like we did with Rock and Roll, Doo-wop, Ska, Motown-Philly, Reggae...etc.....oh yeah rap has even divided itself into several different components old school, nu-skool, gangster, hip-hop, sheesh........!

**Kamasu_Jr** · 07-13-2011, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by paladin

Absolutely not. New Jack was simply another evolution/progression of what we like to refer to as music. A better question may be did video kill R&B ? I would still say no because technology only provides shortcuts for those who are less talented, as does video.

To paraphrase R Holloway, talent trumps tech every time.

Since its a new sound and we don't know what it is, we label it, and then move on to the next thing. New Jack was popular enough to withstand the test of time and now when we hear it, right or wrong we say, oh thats New Jack Swing......just like we did with Rock and Roll, Doo-wop, Ska, Motown-Philly, Reggae...etc.....oh yeah rap has even divided itself into several different components old school, nu-skool, gangster, hip-hop, sheesh........!

I agree. I'm trying to figure oout how image has anything to do with the sound of New Jack Swing. As someone else said, New Jack Swing really breathed renewed life or energy into soul or rhythm & blues music. NJS built upon soul traditions from 20 years earlier and updated them. There was some really good New Jack Swing in the late 1980s and early 1990s: Envogue, Blackstreet with Teddy Riley, Bobby Brown, Boyz II Men, Levert, Shanice Wilson, Babyface and so on.

**soulster** · 07-14-2011, 03:23 AM

No, I do not think it killed R&B. If anything, it enhanced it.

BTW, R&B isn't dead.

**copley** · 07-14-2011, 05:11 AM

I don't even know what new jack swing is!

**paladin** · 07-14-2011, 11:17 AM

Sly old Copley: a lot of folks think this is the record that started it......

RossHolloway · 07-14-2011, 11:44 AM

As a point of personal clarification, I really don't believe there is ANY major difference between "traditional r&b" and New Jack Swing. New Jack was just a new breed of r&b artist that came to prominence during the early-mid 90's, singing new songs for a new age by perhaps new writers and producers. To me it was just the natural evolution of music from the early 80's to the mid 80's to the early-mid 90's. I really see and hear no difference, to me it's just a reference to a period of time more so than a complete new style of music. It's just what was hot during that moment in time. New artist today aren't referred to as New Jack Swing, in fact I never hear that term used much, if at all, in describing r&b artist, unless that group or artist came to prominence during that time frame. And didn't NJS pretty much give way to the popularity of Neo-Soul artist by the mid-late 90's? And there are still plenty of popular and thriving R&B artist today: Musiq Soulchild, Fantashia, Kelly Rowland, Jill Scott, Jennifer Hudson, Chris Brown, Tank, Alicia Keys, John Legend, Raphael Saadiq, Kem, Eric Benet, Ne-Yo...well you get the picture.

**stephanie** · 07-15-2011, 12:51 AM

New Jack brought life into R and B if you will. Anything Guy did was great in my book Groove Me, We Can Spend the Night,
A Piece of My Love. Guys first album was one of the greatest albums at that time that came out when New Jack was popular at that time and Bobby Brown - My Prerogative [[sp?), Roni, Dont be Cruel. Its a shame people remember Bobby as the drug fueled man who was married and beating on Whitney Houston. People forget how talented he was and what a great dancer he is. I dont see how New Jack was an open door for neo-soul though Ross Holloway. Neo Soul to me was just an excuse to say we are trying to bring old school back.

**paladin** · 07-15-2011, 01:05 AM

As a point of personal clarification, I really don't believe there is ANY major difference between "traditional r&b" and New Jack Swing. New Jack was just a new breed of r&b artist that came to prominence during the early-mid 90's, singing new songs for a new age by perhaps new writers and producers. To me it was just the natural evolution of music from the early 80's to the mid 80's to the early-mid 90's. I really see and hear no difference, to me it's just a reference to a period of time more so than a complete new style of music.

Ross the second part of your post was exactly what I said, more or less ...thats cool, but the first part is completely out the box and I agree with Stephanie, it not only sounded different but it was different. New Jack was meant to put people on the dance floor, more like disco than anything else, but with a fervent beat and up tempo swing that made you wanna groove, more akin to a synthesized Funkadelic than any old skool ballad. Everything gives way to something else, thats a given, but to trivialize New Jack Swing as being the same ol same ol, is disingenuous and fails to give credit where credit is due. Please.......

**marv2** · 07-15-2011, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by paladin

Sly old Copley: a lot of folks think this is the record that started it......

It pretty much was the record that started it ,"The New Jack Swing Era" for me. First heard it and partied to it in Chicago in 1988 I believe. Great record.

**marv2** · 07-15-2011, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by stephanie

New Jack brought life into R and B if you will. Anything Guy did was great in my book Groove Me, We Can Spend the Night,
A Piece of My Love. Guys first album was one of the greatest albums at that time that came out when New Jack was popular at that time and Bobby Brown - My Prerogative [[sp?), Roni, Dont be Cruel. Its a shame people remember Bobby as the drug fueled man who was married and beating on Whitney Houston. People forget how talented he was and what a great dancer he is. I dont see how New Jack was an open door for neo-soul though Ross Holloway. Neo Soul to me was just an excuse to say we are trying to bring old school back.

Bobby Brown was a BEAST! [[as the kids say...), when it came to New Jack Swing! The long version of "Don't Be Cruel" was dangerous! LOL!

**daddyacey** · 07-15-2011, 01:49 AM

"New Jack Swing" killed R&B? No ,I think not. I agree with my older commrads in that it was "another evolution/progression of what we like to refer to as music."
It's basic foundation that identifys "New Jack Swing" ,is the early drum machine ,sample machine, [[Casio and Roland) sounds and beats where analog instruments would have been. There is no analog instruments in NJS. That's #1 trait of the genre. Synth's took the place of horns ,yet if you listen ,played the horn lines. You have Synth Bass and Guitar as well ,all combined in the R&B formula with a touch of the M.C. element found in the "other" R&B offshoot known as Hip-Hop.

N.J.S. creators include Gene Griffin, Teddy Riley ,Keith Sweat as major players as well as others. You can trace the New Jack sound origin as far back as Doug E Fresh ,"The Show", from 1985! G.G. and T.R. were involved with that.

New Jack was conceived in HARLEM N.Y. ,no diggity ,no doubt!! See the progression from Doug E Fresh in 85 , GUY introduced in 87, Kemp in 88 ,EnTouch in 89 , BLACKSTREET in 92 and M.J.'s "DANGEROUS" , not to mention a slew of other groups and productions in between along the way.

NEW JACK SWING has a credible history that is all it's own, part of a BIGGER PICTURE and HISTORY. Yes ,image did play a part ,but that's part of the progression that moves the music from generation to generation.
Can we talk????........................

**jack020** · 07-15-2011, 02:24 AM

I believe Keith Sweat's Make it Last Forever in 87 started swingbeat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_It...er_%28album%29

RossHolloway · 07-15-2011, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by paladin

Ross the second part of your post was exactly what I said, more or less ...thats cool, but the first part is completely out the box and I agree with Stephanie, it not only sounded different but it was different. New Jack was meant to put people on the dance floor, more like disco than anything else, but with a fervent beat and up tempo swing that made you wanna groove, more akin to a synthesized Funkadelic than any old skool ballad. Everything gives way to something else, thats a given, but to trivialize New Jack Swing as being the same ol same ol, is disingenuous and fails to give credit where credit is due. Please.......

I think you mis-understood my post. At no point did I trivialize New Jack Swing. My main point was that it did not kill "traditional r&b", but rather just the evolution of r&b. Nothing more, nothing less. Calm down. Musical sound and taste in the US is fluid, it's constantly moving and changing from one hot song to the next, from one popular sound or movement to the next. New Jack Swing to me just captured a popular sound from the early mid-90's. And what genre of music became popular after New Jack Swing? Neo-Soul.

**paladin** · 07-15-2011, 09:37 AM

Ross, I understood your post, Daddyacey probably said it best. Your position and opinion which you are entitled to, was that "there was no difference between traditional R & B and New Jack Swing". My position was there was a big difference and that it should be acknowledged as such.

NEW JACK SWING has a credible history that is all it's own, part of a BIGGER PICTURE and HISTORY

RossHolloway · 07-15-2011, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by paladin

Ross, I understood your post, Daddyacey probably said it best. Your position and opinion which you are entitled to, was that "there was no difference between traditional R & B and New Jack Swing". My position was there was a big difference and that it should be acknowledged as such.

I completely understand your point. But the difference to me was the same as the difference between R&B from the 60's to R&B in the 70's to that in the 80's-90's-thru today. R&B [[like most music) doesn't stand still.

**paladin** · 07-15-2011, 10:15 AM

Cool....................

**MichaelSherry59** · 10-10-2021, 10:06 PM

I know this thread is pretty old but I like this question, I think rhythm and blues was dying around the 90s as a whole.

We had this fantastic period of that genre throughout the 50s - 70s, the minute hip hop, MTV, sampling and sythinsizers, sampling etc. It was over.