Top 30 selling Motown singles in UK

[Hotspurman]

I've got someone going through back issues of Disc magazine to see what awards may have been made between 1970 and 1973 - probably Monday when I get the info so I'll post it when I have it.

[Strange]

Are they just gonna tell us the Motown silver's? I can save them the bother.

[Strange]

I think it is an important difference that the claim had to be signed by a Certified or Chartered Accountant after the BPI took over.

I can't understand why a search on the BPI site is showing no match for anything on R Dean Taylor - I've checked this several times now.

Alos I do believe the OCC has access to Company sales data in collaboration with them.

Of course it is an important difference in a perfect world Florence, but then Enron suggests that accountants etc. are just as likely to cover up stuff if they've a mind too!

Maybe it is just the way I'm putting things, I don't know, but essentially there is no difference between the two self-certification methods as used by Disc [[a high-ranking company official would have signed their 'request' letters) or the BPI with their requirement for the qualified financial person. I submitted that piece of information as an aside, not as meaning anything more or less than the equally responsible guys who wrote on behalf of their companies to claim a Disc & Music Echo award.

But then maybe you don't trust any other Board Member, Head of Royalties or a Factory Manager to be doing an equally conscientious and good job? I'm pretty certain they were as meticulous and careful as you or I would be to be honest and accurate - and even more so in the straight-laced Britain of the years in question. It was done on trust for a reason and if there are any doubts about the 60s awards - and you say you have them listed - then offer one...

If I may say so you are taking these conspiracy theories too far. The figures are wrong in that list because they have been calculated not by the OCC but by someone like you and me. 'Stoned Love' proves it, and the work Roger has done equally shows the totals are cumulative estimates of separate releases.

The OCC may have access to actual record label info - that isn't in dispute - but if they include it piecemeal in the ranking lists they do produce then again it is not of much use as it means we don't have a level playing field. For instance any official sales total using the Supremes RIAA single awards as the basis would be totally useless as clearly they haven't got all their info. Same with the OCC, they won't have everything from all labels from the past so their efforts will also be flawed.

All they could and should do is report on what they have always had the contract to do [[under the various firms), report on the retail sales totals they've discovered and there would be no blurring of the lines.

[Strange]

Not true, Strange - I'm keeping an open mind.

Yes, I would love to see Stoned Love at 355k - heck I would love to see it at 1m! - but in the end whether it has sold 500k or just 1k it won't make any difference to my life. What I DO want is the CORRECT figure, whatever that is. If it was only an amount of 20/30k difference there would be no problem but I while I know the OCC is not infallible and I don't willy-nilly accept all I am told I find it hard to believe it could be out to such an extent. I am sure they are aware of certifications etc.

In view of the fact that Diana's ISW was certified it does seem unusual although not impossible that Stoned Love would not have been submitted for a silver disc. The list which Hotspur was supplied obviously has ommissions.

There's no doubt your mind is keeping wide open Florence, but it is also closed to the logic I'm afraid.

I keep pointing out the problem with the 'Stoned Love' sale with a piece of evidence that answers your concerns but on each occasion you still can't accept the obvious - it didn't sell 355k and QED the list is clearly incorrect.

You want a CORRECT figure, but that ain't gonna happen for any of us, but whereas logic tells me that as it wasn't awarded a silver disc that it didn't even ship 250k then until that wonderful day arrives when all the data hidden away is released it seems to me - application oversight or other conspiracy apart - that 355k is wrong. It won't change my life either, but at the moment the weight of evidence indicates I must be more likely right than wrong. Believe in what you will.

As for hard information, I noticed that you mentioned 'Reach Out I'll Be There' in that regard in the opening post. It can only be possible to be right if it is a pre-OCC era stat as like I say they won't know themselves either and are only guessing in creating that ranking order.

[Hotspurman]

Are they just gonna tell us the Motown silver's? I can save them the bother.

I'm a completist - I want details of all the missing silver discs for my own benefit. There is music out there apart from Motown....

[Strange]

Fair enough Hotspurman, I totally agree that there is more than just Motown music - but maybe not much better!

There will be around a hundred silvers 70-73 from Disc, with the principal Motown one that I recall of the top of my head being 'I Want You Back' on 14th March 1970 and then 'Tears of a Clown' and Stevie's 'I Don't Know Why' announced on 19th September 1970.

Anyone want to guess the last one?

[Hotspurman]

The missing Tamla Motown awards presented by Disc magazine were I Want You Back [[Jackson 5), Tears Of A Clown [[Smokey Robinson & The Miracles), I'll Be There [[Jackson 5), I'm Still Waiting [[Diana Ross) and Ben [[Michael Jackson). There were no further Disc awards after 27 October 1973, by which time the 'official' BPI awards were in place. It is also believed that in several instances, the record companies were not applying for awards from Disc since they knew the BPI awards would succeed them - Eye Level by Simon Park being one such instance.

[Strange]

Very good Hotspurman. So we got there in the end and as you say the 'missing' one I was alluding to was 'I'll Be There' which was notified in Disc 13th February 1971. You also have the 1973 award for 'Ben' which I wasn't bothering as it was post-72 but was, as you say, prior to the BPI formally taking over the reigns in April 1973 and therefore applicable to our little study.

However I wouldn't hold much credence to those who 'also believe' others would have made it to 250k but labels were holding back from applying because they knew the BPI awards were coming. Tell them that is complete hogwash from me. The example of Simon Park Orchestra for instance is particularly misleading in this regard.

[Strange]

Sales estimates are courtesy of SimonW of Havenforum.co.uk.

It is possible to get pretty accurate figures of UK sales based on year-end charts etc and official sales-to-date on many records given from time to time e.g. Reach Out I'll Be There by the Four Tops was confirmed as having sold 470k to week ending 04 April 2010.

The figures estimated above are accurate to within 20k with the exception of #s 4 and 7 for which definite information is difficult to find.

Elsewhere I mentioned that I recalled you suggesting the sales for the Four Tops hit 'Reach Out...' were 'confirmed'. I suppose that does go back to the Virgin Book you're quoting on that thread then Florence? If so, how do they know? Were they provided with this by OCC which is how SimonW has then fitted in around the other figures? That is the most sensible thing to do I guess.

I'm also now even more intrigued how the figures can be accurate within 20k except for Nos 4 and 7? I've already shown how 'Stoned Love' simply isn't that close, and on the other thread 'Baby Love' is under some scrutiny too, which begs the question how come definite information for those two isn't difficult to find?

This is all starting to remind me of a Russian Doll whereby each new layer reveals another miniature...

[Hotspurman]

Very good Hotspurman. So we got there in the end and as you say the 'missing' one I was alluding to was 'I'll Be There' which was notified in Disc 13th February 1971. You also have the 1973 award for 'Ben' which I wasn't bothering as it was post-72 but was, as you say, prior to the BPI formally taking over the reigns in April 1973 and therefore applicable to our little study.

However I wouldn't hold much credence to those who 'also believe' others would have made it to 250k but labels were holding back from applying because they knew the BPI awards were coming. Tell them that is complete hogwash from me. The example of Simon Park Orchestra for instance is particularly misleading in this regard.

I don't think so - the single went on to attain platinum status from the BPI, so why would EMI bother to apply for an unofficial award from Disc magazine? That is not to say other companies did the same thing; Deram applied for a Disc award for David Bowie's The Laughing Gnome and got one from the BPI too, ditto London, Bobby 'Boris' Pickett and Monster Mash. But, Welcome Home by Peters & Lee has not got an award, from Disc or the BPI, so although it is all hypothetical, my guess would be that Philips did not bother applying. Since the single had entered the chart on 26 May 1973 and reached its peak on 21 July, the bulk of the sales would have occurred a good four months before the BPI launched the official awards system.

[florence]

Elsewhere I mentioned that I recalled you suggesting the sales for the Four Tops hit 'Reach Out...' were 'confirmed'. I suppose that does go back to the Virgin Book you're quoting on that thread then Florence? If so, how do they know? Were they provided with this by OCC which is how SimonW has then fitted in around the other figures? That is the most sensible thing to do I guess.

I'm also now even more intrigued how the figures can be accurate within 20k except for Nos 4 and 7? I've already shown how 'Stoned Love' simply isn't that close, and on the other thread 'Baby Love' is under some scrutiny too, which begs the question how come definite information for those two isn't difficult to find?

This is all starting to remind me of a Russian Doll whereby each new layer reveals another miniature...

I can't tell you where the Virgin Book Of Hit Singles got there figure for the Four Tops "Reach Out" - it could have been the OCC, it could have been the Record Company but why assume it's wrong?

There is always a chance it could be but it's a reputable entity and I see no reason to doubt them. You have to take things on trust unless there is irrefutable evidence to the contrary - you just can't disbelieve everything otherwise what's the point?

As for Baby Love I'm happy enough with the total as also Roger would appear to be - you can't know when the shipping figure passed 250k.

The only person who could tell you exactly how he worked out the figures is SimonW himself.

It is a subject he has a passionate interest in and I have no reason to doubt his accuracy. He gathers information from myriad sources to provide his figures.

There are a large number watchers in the UK and they are quick to question anything which looks wrong.

[Strange]

However I wouldn't hold much credence to those who 'also believe' others would have made it to 250k but labels were holding back from applying because they knew the BPI awards were coming. Tell them that is complete hogwash from me. The example of Simon Park Orchestra for instance is particularly misleading in this regard.

I don't think so - the single went on to attain platinum status from the BPI, so why would EMI bother to apply for an unofficial award from Disc magazine? That is not to say other companies did the same thing; Deram applied for a Disc award for David Bowie's The Laughing Gnome and got one from the BPI too, ditto London, Bobby 'Boris' Pickett and Monster Mash. But, Welcome Home by Peters & Lee has not got an award, from Disc or the BPI, so although it is all hypothetical, my guess would be that Philips did not bother applying. Since the single had entered the chart on 26 May 1973 and reached its peak on 21 July, the bulk of the sales would have occurred a good four months before the BPI launched the official awards system.

Hotspurman - I’m assuming you are referring to the Simon Park Orch. single ‘Eye Level’ and the fact Columbia didn’t apply for a Disc silver ‘disc’ with your ‘I don’t think so’ comment? If so, I’m surprised as there is no way that they would have even contemplated it as it was nowhere near the qualifying quarter-million sales before the BPI awards were up and running!

It was a very minor hit on release in the autumn of 1972, and by the time it became a smash the following year they simply had no need to go to Disc as the officially sanctioned awards programme had been launched. What it does do is raise another issue that seems to run contrary to the BPI’s own rules – that of only certifying records released after 1^st April 1973.

There are plenty of examples where it looks like BPI have not stuck to this cut-off point, and to be honest it is annoying that it even exists as there might be a very worthwhile and interesting re-certification of UK items similar to those that took place in the 90s in the States. But that is another story, and for now I repeat that in my opinion it is highly unlikely that any label with an eligible single for a quarter-million silver disc award would not write to Disc to get it recognised even if they knew that the BPI were preparing to run things. Especially as the cut-off point of the 1^st April release date would have precluded them from succeeding anyway.

It is quite another thing to then say that ‘The Laughing Gnome’ was submitted for one of each from both Disc and BPI. If that was what the label wanted to do – and being little old Deram they probably wanted all the publicity they could get, and at no real cost to themselves don’t forget – it wasn’t that big a deal. The official one at the time – December 1973 – was the only one that really counted anyway, and it’s not like it doubled the number of records sold or some such! The same with ‘Monster Mash’ really on London; it too is after the date BPI took over, and is not evidence of labels holding back or not submitting award request letters to Disc which is what you were saying others ‘believed’.

Your last example was ‘Welcome Home’, and that is interesting in all of the ways I’ve discussed except again the idea that it was somehow withheld from getting a Disc award because of the BPI scheme. Why it is interesting particularly is that it may have been released before Philips were fully aware of the BPI scheme, or even – though it is unclear – prior to the cut-off date again. It appears to have been a May 1973 release, but in all honesty it could have been late April and Philips misunderstood the cut-off date as needing to be before 1^st May.

Anyway, that is conjecture as to exactly what went on, but I feel something along those lines must have happened. Why, well because a silver award was noted in the Music Week chart on 14^th July, so quite obviously there was an appreciation of the status at Philips, and furthermore it then went gold on 18^th August, as witnessed by a formal award presented by Rolf Harris to Peters & Lee that also was covered in Music Week.

Which leads on to the last conclusion that I can draw from all of this, and no doubt you’ll be aware of this too, that the BPI website is not to be trusted implicitly and they just might have received a letter of request and it simply never got properly recorded – either then or later…

[Strange]

I can't tell you where the Virgin Book Of Hit Singles got there figure for the Four Tops "Reach Out" - it could have been the OCC, it could have been the Record Company but why assume it's wrong?

There is always a chance it could be but it's a reputable entity and I see no reason to doubt them. You have to take things on trust unless there is irrefutable evidence to the contrary - you just can't disbelieve everything otherwise what's the point?

As for Baby Love I'm happy enough with the total as also Roger would appear to be - you can't know when the shipping figure passed 250k.

The only person who could tell you exactly how he worked out the figures is SimonW himself.

It is a subject he has a passionate interest in and I have no reason to doubt his accuracy. He gathers information from myriad sources to provide his figures.

There are a large number watchers in the UK and they are quick to question anything which looks wrong.

Well I suppose it is for others to wonder why I assume any of the things under discussion is wrong – including what is written in the Virgin books – and whether or not I have answered in a capacity that sounds believable or trustworthy. As I have pointed out things about ‘Stoned Love’ not being a silver disc winner, or as above to Hotspurman relating to other misunderstood issues concerning Disc/BPI awards, I can only speak about what I know.

It is for others to decide whether to accept or deny what I say.

I am totally at ease with accepting formal awards [[especially those of an official nature or audited like the RIAA ones), and I certainly don’t disbelieve everything I read because otherwise, as you say, what’s the point? But usually I have a very good reason to take a stance over the veracity or otherwise of what I read on sales and chart matters, and while the quality of the source is a factor it doesn’t always make a difference. The Motown 30 list is by someone like you and me, and for all we know so are the Virgin entries [[a la the Ash/Crampton or Murrells or whoever else has turned their hand to putting pen to paper). Maybe you or I might do so one day?! Then we can be dissected too…lol.

I’m aware that the UK probably has the largest number of people who enjoy all this stuff and many have built up some considerable expertise and done tons of research to that end. I am not saying all SimonW’s estimations are wrong, I’m saying the ones I have singled out are wrong, and prinicpally ‘Stoned Love’ which is the original point of this thread. ‘Baby Love’ came into it later and I considered that more liberally but you have reservations about both despite the evidence I provided being – in my opinion anyway – more robust than the wishful thinking of the claims supporting the higher levels.

I could go into plenty of reasons why I ‘know’ when the shipping figure passed 250k but we’ll never be sure either way no doubt. But hopefully my posts have caused some pause for thought among readers who otherwise might rashly think that they’ve seen some official OCC figures when they haven’t, or could’ve overlooked issues like records being re-released in differing formats that, as I and Roger believe, is slightly disengenuous. Even if it doesn’t apply to ‘Baby Love’!

Maybe I’m being too pedantic and precise, and if so I’ll shut up.

[Hotspurman]

There's nothing wrong with being too pedantic or precise - that is why people like myself, Dave McAleer and Alan Jones were put on this earth! As I mentioned much earlier in the thread, when I got the list of awards from the BPI, I did query some of the omissions, the most notable [[to my mind) in recent years being Christina Aguilera's Genie In A Bottle, which must surely have sold more than the 200,000 copies required for a silver disc. Despite asking the BPI to check twice, they still came up with a blank. With regards to Peters & Lee, what appeared in Music Week may have been Philips acknowledging the sales plateau, because I've not got anything on the record on either my Disc or BPI listings. Again, this is something that happened during this period - there was a presentation ceremony I found pictured in Music Week that I queried with the BPI - if my memory serves, it was problably a single on the Bradley's label - but they had no record of an award being made.

On the basis of all of this, what I put into the Complete UK Hit Singles [[and albums version, come to that) was what I had the BPI listing for. Had Harper Collins gone to a further edition, I intended putting in all of the Disc awards, just to round it all off.

[Strange]

There's nothing wrong with being too pedantic or precise - that is why people like myself, Dave McAleer and Alan Jones were put on this earth! As I mentioned much earlier in the thread, when I got the list of awards from the BPI, I did query some of the omissions, the most notable [[to my mind) in recent years being Christina Aguilera's Genie In A Bottle, which must surely have sold more than the 200,000 copies required for a silver disc. Despite asking the BPI to check twice, they still came up with a blank. With regards to Peters & Lee, what appeared in Music Week may have been Philips acknowledging the sales plateau, because I've not got anything on the record on either my Disc or BPI listings. Again, this is something that happened during this period - there was a presentation ceremony I found pictured in Music Week that I queried with the BPI - if my memory serves, it was problably a single on the Bradley's label - but they had no record of an award being made.

On the basis of all of this, what I put into the Complete UK Hit Singles [[and albums version, come to that) was what I had the BPI listing for. Had Harper Collins gone to a further edition, I intended putting in all of the Disc awards, just to round it all off.

Lol Hotspurman, good to hear that pedanticism [[?) and precision is still highly valued and I'm in your club then guys!

Like I say the problem is three-fold really;

1) the swap over period might have caused some confusion as to when a release was entitled to a BPI certification. If there was doubt it would naturally be at the beginning and hence April/May 73 releases are possibly gonna be problematic in this regard.

2) as in the States, the award is only possible if the label/company approaches the certifying body though in the case of the BPI [[and Disc before them) that is all that is necessary. If they don't request a cert then they won't get one. Simple as that! I'd be amazed if there weren't hundreds of awards not bothered with over the years.

3) the award is informal insofar as it only requires a letter. This can be mislaid [[again at the start it is more likely to happen perhaps until they get organised?) or not recorded later when things were transferred to the database.

But in relation to No. 2 above, and your example of 'Genie In A Bottle' still not being confirmed despite a couple of checks, did you contact the label? I know of people who have done this and the label were grateful and went ahead and got the single/album or whatever certified. As I say the BPI can only wait on the approach.

All my point about Peters & Lee was to say that not having a silver disc isn't a surprise for a number of reasons and as I showed Philips obviously knew of the level [[and the subsequent gold). It had nothing to do with Disc, and nor did the others you mentioned - in particular 'Eye Level'. Indeed, that should never have been granted any BPI award as it was issued prior to the scheme being set up, should it?

To go back right to the beginning, I was observing no more than as 'Stoned Love' was not a silver disc winner [[as you have confirmed my Motown Disc list of silvers) then it brought the sales estimations list into question on that result [[355k) alone.

The rest of the award history and that errors will have been made is, I think, something both you and I know only too well and probably shouldn't bother others anymore with on here.

Have you checked your PM in-box btw?

[Hotspurman]

With regards to contacting RCA, the answer was no. I was too busy putting my original database and copy together to do that, but even if I'd have had time, I don't know that I'd have done it - back in 1979, when I was working for Pye Records we had the 20th Century label for the UK and released Edwin Starr's Contact. That hit silver, so we applied for a disc, but as I noticed it had sold more than 100,00 copies on 12" alone, I suggested we award a special 12" silver disc in addition to the normal 7" one. I did the presentation and the resulting picture in Music Week stated that Contact was the first 12" to have sold more than 100,000 copies in the UK. RCA went garity, claiming Shame by Evelyn Champagne King had sold more copies than Contact. It may have done, but they didn't claim anything until after the event. So RCA can work out their own bloody figures forever more as far as I'm concerned! By the way, what exactly is my PM in-box? I've looked in my hotmail account, or am I looking in the wrong place?

[Strange]

Lol Hotspurman, great anecdote about RCA. It's funny because they made a lot of noise about 'Shame' on 12" in the States and maybe someone got into bother about not beating you guys to it in the UK? Anyway, that apart, I just know the labels took less interest in UK awards as the years went by and like I said many times they just weren't up to speed because they were poorly run.

At the top of these forums there is the line New Posts; Private Messages; FAQ; Calendar etc. Well hopefully if you click on PMs and login you might see something from me - then again it might be me who's messed up as Philistine is my middle name with many of my friends and family....

[Hotspurman]

Well hopefully I replied through the PM box - you know what it is like, you get a new piece of equipment and you don't actually read the instructions until something goes wrong....I never knew we could do PM's to each other; now that is interesting!