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  1. #51
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    Bump for Strange.
    Last edited by florence; 12-02-2011 at 10:51 AM. Reason: spelling mistake

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    I would be suspect of those 60's sales figures as I read from many sources back in the day & I use to get Record Mirror and a HUGE seller in the UK would sell 250,000 in the 60's & would be awarded a Silver Disc.

  3. #53
    I'm about now Florence, sorry been chopping wood as it's turned wintry. Thanks for posting the list but didn't you say elsewhere it was an OCC claim when saying Stoned Love was 330k, and broadcast on Radio 2 or something? Or did I get it wrong?

    Big difference between an official list and what someone else has worked out, no matter how much of the details do originate from the Official Chart Company that went into making the list.

    As it stands I'll not say too much as it is obvious everyone is happy enough it seems to simply accept s stuff and don't seem inclined to get too heavily involved with it in a meaningful way. But suffice to say motony has just raised the most cogent point so far about the validity of the numbers.

  4. #54
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    The Four Tops Hits spent 22 weeks on top of the EP charts, but was bettered by The Shadows To The Fore [[28 weeks) and The Beach Boys Hits [[32 weeks). I think it worth pointing out that sales figures for the 1960s through to 1973 are going to be a bit suspect and are more based on what record companies said they were rather than proper audited figures - the BPI [[British Phonographic Industry) did not start issuing its own 'official' silver, gold and platinum discs, with Gary Glitter's Hello Hello I'm Back Again the first such award. Prior to this, Record & Disc magazine instituted their own award in 1959, based on claimed sales of 250,000 units - Russ Conway's Side Saddle was the first, followed a week later by Buddy Holly's It Doesn't Matter Anymore. Whilst I don't doubt the integrity of the record companies at the time, it is known that several of the awards were considered questionable, shall we say, by later chart analyists. The Motown discs given these awards were The Supremes Baby Love, The Four Tops Reach Out I'll Be There, Marvin Gaye I Heard It Through The Grapevine and Stevie Wonder Yester-Me Yester-You Yesterday. Motown's first 'official' silver disc went to Diana & Marvin's You Are Everything. The first gold disc was for the Commodores Three Times A Lady and Stevie Wonder's I Just Called To Say I Love You picked up the first platinum award.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by motony View Post
    I would be suspect of those 60's sales figures as I read from many sources back in the day & I use to get Record Mirror and a HUGE seller in the UK would sell 250,000 in the 60's & would be awarded a Silver Disc.
    A sale of 250k in the UK in the 1960s was not a particularly huge figure - many records sold between this and the next level of certification 1m - gold.

    Artists such as Elvis Presley, Cliff Richard and The Beatles regularly sold 500k for their single releases.

    As opposed to the US where albums were the huge sellers the UK has always been a singles orientated market. It's only really from the 80s where big numbers of albums began to post huge sales.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I'm about now Florence, sorry been chopping wood as it's turned wintry. Thanks for posting the list but didn't you say elsewhere it was an OCC claim when saying Stoned Love was 330k, and broadcast on Radio 2 or something? Or did I get it wrong?

    Big difference between an official list and what someone else has worked out, no matter how much of the details do originate from the Official Chart Company that went into making the list.

    As it stands I'll not say too much as it is obvious everyone is happy enough it seems to simply accept s stuff and don't seem inclined to get too heavily involved with it in a meaningful way. But suffice to say motony has just raised the most cogent point so far about the validity of the numbers.
    This IS an offical list as compiled by the Official Charts Company in the UK in terms of position.

    The sales figures have been added in but as I have said in the first post you are able to get accurate figureswithin a certian rangefor UK sales and at some points in the list hard figures were known

  7. #57
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    I love these lists; but as to their authenticity or accuracy, I'm uncertain; there may be some basis for them but I don't believe anyone can say they are completely accurate.

    And the RIAA lists are definitely no more accurate in terms of real sales; what they are is an RIAA list, nothing more. And they don't mean those records or CDs sold those amounts.

    I wonder if Berry Gordy, Smokey Robinson, or Diana Ross accurately know what their records sold. I wonder if the later still deep inside thinks she got scammed here and there.

    I think most of the artists were glad to be a part of Motown and I think Motown treated them better than most of the artists before them on other labels. I don't believe most of the artists knew they were paying for taxi fares, studio time, recording costs, Billboard ads, postage, long distance calls and the like. And I believe a lot of them wished they'd saved a lot more money.

    But I also believe most of them are still glad to be singing today like Dennis Edwards in Hong Kong, like Diana Ross singing at a wedding or like Mary Wilson singing in Britain with Bill Wyman ~ and whether the money is huge or small, whether the crowds are huge or small, they still love it and don't want to let it go.

  8. #58
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    I'm sure Berry knew what was selling since he would have seen the pressing figures and the sales figures. Not that this is a story I heard related to Motown, but labels like Roulette, run by Morris Levy, would hand over the keys to a brand new Cadillac to artists whose records were selling - they could see them appear on the charts, even if they didn't know the quantities that were being shifted. Later, it turns out the Cadillac was only leased and Levy would stop paying the monthly premium, so the car would go back. He also once infamously said 'If you want to see royalties, go to Buckingham Palace.'

    I think the RIAA figures are accurate up the point of copies selling out of the record company; whether they then took account of returns I'm not so sure! But let's face it, record companies loved the opportunity to show how successful they were by presenting an award or two to their artists and then getting the pictures in the trade publications. I know, I organised one for Edwin Starr [[and our sales figures were accurate!).

  9. #59
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    I always wondered why Britain was swamped with U.S. cut-outs albums in the late 70s. It was great for me to get a lot of stuff never released in the UK. But was this an attempt by Motown to state bigger sales?..Paulo xxx

  10. #60
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    Florence, the 45 was KING in the USA in the 60's.The LPs didn't come close to 45 sales until the mid 70's.

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    I think the UK often has better taste in music than us yanks-eg Do You Know bores me to death and Chain Reaction is a great record but Work That Body-yuk! Any thoughts on why the Tempts records not so popular? Did Brenda make the UK charts?

  12. #62
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    You've got to love the Roulette story: "if you wanna see royalties, go to Buckingham Palace", LOL!

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    The Morris Levy story is true, and sadly only part of his tentacle like hold on the music industry of the time. Take for instance his appearance as one of the composers of Why Do Fools Fall In Love. According to Jimmy Merchant and Herman Santiago, two of The Teenagers, they had come up with the idea for a song based on a poem called Why Do Birds Sing So Gay and had worked it into Why Do Fools Fall In Love with group leader Frankie Lymon. When they took the song to record producer George Goldner for release on his Gee Records label, he told them there wasn’t room on the disc for three credits, so the song was issued with the writing credit Lymon/Goldner! The single became a worldwide smash, topping the charts in the UK and was a Top Ten US hit, selling over two million copies in the process. It was a Top Ten hit for Diana Ross in 1981 and the original version had also featured on numerous rock and pop compilations over the years, making it one of the most popular pop songs of all time. Goldner, however, was another of the notorious record company executives operating in the 1950s; according to legend he lost the rights to his various record labels and copyrights gambling with Morris Levy. By the late 1950s, the writing credit on the song had been amended to read Lymon/Levy, and all attempts by Merchant and Santiago to obtain royalties had been rebuked. They were not the only ones, for Lymon’s widow Emira Eagle took Levy to court in 1984 claiming unpaid royalties. Under oath Levy was asked how he had contributed to the record. ‘You get together, you get a beat going and you put the music and words together. I think I would be misleading you if I said I wrote songs, per se, like Chopin.’

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    You've got to love the Roulette story: "if you wanna see royalties, go to Buckingham Palace", LOL!
    and that man meant it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by motony View Post
    Florence, the 45 was KING in the USA in the 60's.The LPs didn't come close to 45 sales until the mid 70's.

    That's interesting because the US was by far the biggest music selling market in the world and yet the info. Strange has on the sles of singles in this period would seem to suggest they weren't that great.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I think the UK often has better taste in music than us yanks-eg Do You Know bores me to death and Chain Reaction is a great record but Work That Body-yuk! Any thoughts on why the Tempts records not so popular? Did Brenda make the UK charts?

    Really hard to understand the big difference in taste between the two countries with regard to Supremes/Diana singles.

    Someday and Love Child purportedly the two biggest group singles did chart in the UK but only in the teens - there were many bigger hits.

    Diana's solo singles were even more diverse. I'm Still Waiting was a #1 samash in the UK and really struggled Stateside - of course it wasn't released until a year after the Surrender album which may have had some effect.

    We had Doodedoodn'doobe and All Of My Life lifted off albums and became big hits.

    Do You Know Where You're Going To amazingly stiffef in the UK when first released and then wehen Diana came on tour six months later took off and made the top 5.

    Mirror Mirror was a very minor hit while Work That Boby went top 10 - opposite in the US.

    Then we had Diana's biggest hit ever in the UK Chain Reaction which did little in the US while Missing You flopped in the UK.

    In the 90s Diana was more or less passe in the US while in the UK while Thr Force Behind The Power was close to double platinum in the UK and there were five hit singles from it including When You Tell Me That You Love Me which just missed #1 due to the sales boom for Queen after the death of Freddy Mercury.

    Odd!

  17. #67
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    Surprises me that R.Dean Taylor "Ghost in My House" is not in the list? it was originally released in 1967 and never took off, I was still at school then and do not remember it, but in 1973 it was added to a Music for Pleasure LP which were very cheap in the UK and when I started to play it in clubs the floor filled up! I was on the Motown DJ list and kept pleading for it to be released and they laughed at first, Then 1974 it was released as a single and went to Number 2 in the UK Charts [[I remember a few years back some references put it at 3??) a big success for a Motown release! I was promised a disc for being persistent but never got it!! Perhaps the release was at a time of the year when UK sales did not need to be high?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by florence View Post
    As opposed to the US where albums were the huge sellers the UK has always been a singles orientated market. It's only really from the 80s where big numbers of albums began to post huge sales.
    I take it you are talking about Soul/R&B LPs and singles here Florence .. I used to avidly read Record Mirror from 1969 into the early '70s and in 1969 they were reporting that the British record companies were concerned about the "imminent demise of the seven inch single" as sales had collapsed from around 80 million per year at the height of "Beatlemania" [[1963/4?) to under 40 million.

    In contrast sales of LPs in Britain had gone in the opposite direction, with the increase in sales powered mainly by "Progressive Rock" acts such as CREAM/LED ZEPPELIN/TYRANNASAURUS REX and "concept albums" by established Rock/Pop acts such as THE BEATLES/ROLLING STONES/WHO/MOODY BLUES etc.

    Apart from "Greatest Hits" packages and compilations such as the "Motown Chartbusters" LPs the British LP charts contained very few "Soul" LPs in that period. In contrast the UK Top selling singles charts always had a large number of "Soul" releases in them.

    Check these UK singles charts from May and June 1969, during the height of the "Soul Reissue" fever and about a quarter of the chart entries are "Soul/R&B" .. and the proportion of "Black" music increases to close to a third if the "Reggae/Rocksteady" entries are included.

    May 3rd 1969 ..

    http://www.chartstats.com/chart.php?week=19690503

    June 14th 1969 ..

    http://www.chartstats.com/chart.php?week=19690614

    In contrast here are the UK LP listings for the same weeks .. with the only "Soul" entry being the DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES JOIN THE TEMPTATIONS set.

    May 3rd 1969 ..

    http://www.chartstats.com/album_char...03%2F05%2F1969

    June 14th 1969 ..

    http://www.chartstats.com/album_chart.php?week=19690607

    That all fits with my memories of that period as the "Rock" fans I knew tended to buy LPs whereas the "Pop" and "Soul" fans tended to buy singles.

    The concerns of the UK record companies lead them to start issuing the dreaded maxi-singles [[one track on the "A" side and two tracks on the "B" side) in an attempt to revive sales in 1970/71, sales of UK singles did revive and by the end of the 1970s were higher than ever but I would put the revival down to the popularity of singles orientated genres such as "Glitter Rock" in 1972/3/4 and "Disco" from 1974 onwards.

    Roger

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger View Post
    I take it you are talking about Soul/R&B LPs and singles here Florence .. I used to avidly read Record Mirror from 1969 into the early '70s and in 1969 they were reporting that the British record companies were concerned about the "imminent demise of the seven inch single" as sales had collapsed from around 80 million per year at the height of "Beatlemania" [[1963/4?) to under 40 million.

    In contrast sales of LPs in Britain had gone in the opposite direction, with the increase in sales powered mainly by "Progressive Rock" acts such as CREAM/LED ZEPPELIN/TYRANNASAURUS REX and "concept albums" by established Rock/Pop acts such as THE BEATLES/ROLLING STONES/WHO/MOODY BLUES etc.

    Apart from "Greatest Hits" packages and compilations such as the "Motown Chartbusters" LPs the British LP charts contained very few "Soul" LPs in that period. In contrast the UK Top selling singles charts always had a large number of "Soul" releases in them.

    Check these UK singles charts from May and June 1969, during the height of the "Soul Reissue" fever and about a quarter of the chart entries are "Soul/R&B" .. and the proportion of "Black" music increases to close to a third if the "Reggae/Rocksteady" entries are included.

    May 3rd 1969 ..

    http://www.chartstats.com/chart.php?week=19690503

    June 14th 1969 ..

    http://www.chartstats.com/chart.php?week=19690614

    In contrast here are the UK LP listings for the same weeks .. with the only "Soul" entry being the DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES JOIN THE TEMPTATIONS set.

    May 3rd 1969 ..

    http://www.chartstats.com/album_char...03%2F05%2F1969

    June 14th 1969 ..

    http://www.chartstats.com/album_chart.php?week=19690607

    That all fits with my memories of that period as the "Rock" fans I knew tended to buy LPs whereas the "Pop" and "Soul" fans tended to buy singles.

    The concerns of the UK record companies lead them to start issuing the dreaded maxi-singles [[one track on the "A" side and two tracks on the "B" side) in an attempt to revive sales in 1970/71, sales of UK singles did revive and by the end of the 1970s were higher than ever but I would put the revival down to the popularity of singles orientated genres such as "Glitter Rock" in 1972/3/4 and "Disco" from 1974 onwards.

    Roger
    I think it ebbed and flowed, Roger.

    In the 60s obviously the Beatles shifted albums and The Sound Of Music was a big seller but even artists like Cliff Roichard didn't really sell big numbers in albums.

    Towards the end of the 70s albums really began to take off with Abba leading the way and Greatest Hits Collections elling by the bucketload. Then singles exploded again in the late 70s and went through periods of surges and declines.

    But the top 40 was always interwoven int=o the fabric of British life and was always newsworthy.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by florence View Post
    This IS an offical list as compiled by the Official Charts Company in the UK in terms of position.

    The sales figures have been added in but as I have said in the first post you are able to get accurate figureswithin a certian rangefor UK sales and at some points in the list hard figures were known
    Ok, so what makes the figures accurate prior to the OCC coming into being? Why do you trust these estimates based on an order list that also is an estimate?

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspurman View Post
    I'm sure Berry knew what was selling since he would have seen the pressing figures and the sales figures. Not that this is a story I heard related to Motown, but labels like Roulette, run by Morris Levy, would hand over the keys to a brand new Cadillac to artists whose records were selling - they could see them appear on the charts, even if they didn't know the quantities that were being shifted. Later, it turns out the Cadillac was only leased and Levy would stop paying the monthly premium, so the car would go back. He also once infamously said 'If you want to see royalties, go to Buckingham Palace.'

    I think the RIAA figures are accurate up the point of copies selling out of the record company; whether they then took account of returns I'm not so sure! But let's face it, record companies loved the opportunity to show how successful they were by presenting an award or two to their artists and then getting the pictures in the trade publications. I know, I organised one for Edwin Starr [[and our sales figures were accurate!).
    Great story about Morris Levy Hotspurman, and that is the point really about the RIAA too. They set up a system whereby gold awards could be verified and authenticated officially by independent auditors who had to be shown the paperwork. Unless we are totally cynical we have to accept that it could be trusted and the information was credible. Beforehand the labels did as they pleased, and even afterwards as you've indicated there were plenty of what are termed 'in-house' awards that have simply a marketing and promotion purpose and may or may not be genuine.

    You are correct in that what we have are shipments though, and they are problematic in other ways concerning returns and freebies. It is possible to judge the hits that didn't really deserve their RIAA award if one gets to see those pressing and sales figures, just as you rightly say Berry Gordy must have done. He knew the rules and conditions of the awards and simply decided they would not benefit Motown or support his publicity claims. You don't go looking for trouble!

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by motony View Post
    Florence, the 45 was KING in the USA in the 60's.The LPs didn't come close to 45 sales until the mid 70's.
    Well motony that is far from true I'm afraid this time! The final quarter of 1967 saw US album and tape [[still pretty negligible though mind at this time) record sales exceed those for singles for the first time. It had been close for the preceeding three years too since the arrival of the Beatles.

    The sales of singles were not as stupendous as we have been led to believe Stateside, they were far stronger in the mid-fifties and mid-late seventies than they ever were in the mid-sixties.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by florence View Post
    That's interesting because the US was by far the biggest music selling market in the world and yet the info. Strange has on the sles of singles in this period would seem to suggest they weren't that great.
    Well that's because I only rely on the best of sources Florence, like the RIAA's own 'Manufacturer's Dollar & Unit Shipments of Phonograph Records and Pre-Recorded Tapes' statistics. Once more it boils down to digging a little and then deciding whether you trust the industry watchdog or not. Of course they didn't have complete membership and reporting from every record company/label but it isn't too difficult to make the adjustments. After all, when dealing in tens and hundreds of millions the odd absence of the small outfits can easily be accounted for.

    As with any statistical study one must use the correct data and trust the methodology and findings in place at the time as being the best and most fit for purpose. There is nothing else for it. The alternative is to invent stuff to suit our own preferences and that's of no interest to me. The facts [[as gathered and collated at the time or adjusted/improved upon subsequently) are all that count.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    9. I Want You Back - The Jackson 5 [[1970) 490,000 it sold that much in just Ohio and Michigan alone LOL!. Why is it listed as 1970? Was it released in the U.K. after it's 1969 release here?
    So it didn't do so well in the other 48 then Marv?! The RIAA auditors were given the chance to look at the sales paperwork for 'I Want You Back' and it got a platinum, but not double platinum. Anyway, the UK total estimate here in strict physical format original release 45-rpm sales terms is probably almost double what it actually shifted.

    If Florence can say it includes downloads or not then maybe things are different as I would then agree none of us can follow or guestimate with any degree of accuracy as we just don't have the data like the official companies like i-tunes do.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by jaybs View Post
    Surprises me that R.Dean Taylor "Ghost in My House" is not in the list? it was originally released in 1967 and never took off, I was still at school then and do not remember it, but in 1973 it was added to a Music for Pleasure LP which were very cheap in the UK and when I started to play it in clubs the floor filled up! I was on the Motown DJ list and kept pleading for it to be released and they laughed at first, Then 1974 it was released as a single and went to Number 2 in the UK Charts [[I remember a few years back some references put it at 3??) a big success for a Motown release! I was promised a disc for being persistent but never got it!! Perhaps the release was at a time of the year when UK sales did not need to be high?
    I hadn't given it much thought as I could see at first glance [[as I said above near the top of the page when motony mentioned the obvious about UK silver discs) that the list was full of errors, but yes 'Ghost In My House' should be there. At least it would be if the usual elevation of everyone's totals hadn't occurred - at least if anyone has been following or remotely accepts what I've said about sales of 'Stoned Love'.

    It didn't get a silver disc for starters. Like I keep saying to everyone, we have to accept some of the original official facts if we are to make any sense of this nonsense at all.

  26. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by roger View Post
    I take it you are talking about Soul/R&B LPs and singles here Florence .. I used to avidly read Record Mirror from 1969 into the early '70s and in 1969 they were reporting that the British record companies were concerned about the "imminent demise of the seven inch single" as sales had collapsed from around 80 million per year at the height of "Beatlemania" [[1963/4?) to under 40 million.

    In contrast sales of LPs in Britain had gone in the opposite direction, with the increase in sales powered mainly by "Progressive Rock" acts such as CREAM/LED ZEPPELIN/TYRANNASAURUS REX and "concept albums" by established Rock/Pop acts such as THE BEATLES/ROLLING STONES/WHO/MOODY BLUES etc.

    Apart from "Greatest Hits" packages and compilations such as the "Motown Chartbusters" LPs the British LP charts contained very few "Soul" LPs in that period. In contrast the UK Top selling singles charts always had a large number of "Soul" releases in them.

    That all fits with my memories of that period as the "Rock" fans I knew tended to buy LPs whereas the "Pop" and "Soul" fans tended to buy singles.

    The concerns of the UK record companies lead them to start issuing the dreaded maxi-singles [[one track on the "A" side and two tracks on the "B" side) in an attempt to revive sales in 1970/71, sales of UK singles did revive and by the end of the 1970s were higher than ever but I would put the revival down to the popularity of singles orientated genres such as "Glitter Rock" in 1972/3/4 and "Disco" from 1974 onwards.

    Roger

    Thanks Roger, nothing like the actual stats to underline the realities! In the late sixties and on into 1972 – with the usual exception to prove the rule – single sales were indeed very flat compared with 63/4. But then again, most comparisons with the Beatles/Merseybeat explosion would look poor!

    The actual 45-rpm record production figures for 1964 were 72,841,000 against 46,618,000 in 1969. But as always, an understanding of what the numbers mean and refer to is equally as important in all of this [[a bit like the Republicans or Democrats explaining the same sets of figures differently and the non-partisan commentators actually interpreting them for what they are!).

    Each record manufacturer in the UK had to report their production figures monthly to the Board of Trade, who then collated the numbers and published them. To the BoT it was a simple exercise in collating and recording another set of figures as much as tonnes of steel output or gallons of milk produced by British cows…it was all to work out much more macro things like GDP etc. They paid little attention to the details that the record industry itself would drill-down into and report later under the auspices of the trade association the BPI. There is much more to it, but basically the numbers you almost correctly recalled from Record Mirror were what we today consider as shipments, but moreover they would also include exports! To be sure that wasn’t massive in singles terms, but it is one misleading indicator not described in the bald data.

    Another is of course [[as discussed on another Motown forum thread), that shipments – which are virtually what production should be taken to mean here – are very far from sales to the consumer. Once more there are ways to arrive at an overall view given the right background documentation and it isn’t for here, but suffice to say it wasn’t what the BoT was after but for our little game of working out what was selling what it is necessary to know. Finally, for the 45-rpm category, we have distortion [[that again didn’t concern the BoT) because of EPs. In 63/4 these were huge, but in 1969 they were almost extinct to all intents and purposes statistically. Once again I won’t expand further as this isn’t the place.

    The LPs had indeed gone in exactly the opposite direction as you say, but the ‘tale of the tape’ is even more confusing and far from straightforward! Lies, damn lies and statistics, eh?! And your chart examples showing the preferences of differing groups of consumers for singles/albums, and who was buying which principally, is apt too I would say.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I hadn't given it much thought as I could see at first glance [[as I said above near the top of the page when motony mentioned the obvious about UK silver discs) that the list was full of errors, but yes 'Ghost In My House' should be there. At least it would be if the usual elevation of everyone's totals hadn't occurred - at least if anyone has been following or remotely accepts what I've said about sales of 'Stoned Love'.

    It didn't get a silver disc for starters. Like I keep saying to everyone, we have to accept some of the original official facts if we are to make any sense of this nonsense at all.

    The BPI which is responsible for certifications in the UK only took this over in 1973.

    Before this the award was presented by Disc [[a weekly music magazine) - NOT Record Mirror and it was on the word of a senior executive of the record company concerned and there was NO independent audit! Some companies wouldn't even bother to request one.

    There is no particular reason why There's A Ghost In My House should be on the list. All reaching #3 [[the official peak) tells you that in that week the record was the third best selling single in the UK. Total sales will depend the size of the market at the time and also the time of the year etc. It was after the BPI was doing the certifications and didn't get a Silver Disc. I don't see any reason why Motown wouldn't claim this if the record reached the 250,000 figure as EMI [[the parent company) did for other records on the label.

    The OCC is the official chart company in the UK and is operated jointly by the BPI and Entertainment Reatilers Ascociation and has access to all sales figures. Before a certain date these will be the company's own figures [[shipments less returns).

    The Motown best-selling list is compiled by them and unless anyone has proof to the contrary is correct. There will always be conspiracy thories but there is no reason why this list should be wrong.

    I don't see that you have any basis for saying "the list is full of errors", Strange.

  28. #78
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    Does anyone know precisely how reissues are treated in this list ..

    Virtually all of the "Classic Motown" hits were reissued [[with a new catalogue number and often a different "B" side) on 45 at least once in the UK in the 70's and '80 and with the following four the reissue sold enough to make the UK charts ..

    7. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye [[1969) 500,000+ *
    8. Baby Love - The Supremes [[1964) 500,000
    14. The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson and the Miracles [[1970) 460,000
    16. What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Jimmy Ruffin [[1966) 440,000

    Looking at my Guinness book of British Hit Singles they had the following chart runs ..

    MARVIN GAYE .. "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" ..

    Original issue in 1969 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 686 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 3 weeks.

    Reissue in 1986, prompted by the use of the tune in a Levi's ad-campaign .. Tamla-Motown ZB 40701 .. 8 weeks on the chart peaking at #8.

    SUPREMES - "Baby Love"

    Original issue in 1964 .. Stateside SS 350 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 2 weeks.

    Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 915 .. 12 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.

    SMOKEY ROBINSON & THE MIRACLES - "Tears Of a Clown"

    Original issue in 1970 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 745 .. 14 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 1 week.

    Reissue in 1976, as part of a number of "back-to-back hits" reissues .. Tamla Motown TMG 1046 .. 6 weeks on the chart peaking at #34.

    JIMMY RUFFIN - "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted"

    Original issue in 1966 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 577 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.

    Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 911 .. 13 weeks on the chart peaking at #4.

    The only one of the reissues that had the same "B" side as the original was "Baby Love"/"Ask Any Girl" so I can't see how the list can legitimately combine sales of all issues ..

    The most interesting of these 4 I find to be the JIMMY RUFFIN song, which was actually a bigger UK chart hit when reissued in 1974 than it had been back in 1966 .. and yet the list implies that the sales figure of 440,000 is for the TMG 577 1966 release. Does anyone know if the figure actually includes the 1974 reissue?

    Assuming that the figure of 440,000 is just for TMG 577 it makes me wonder what the figure would be if TMG 911 were included. Alternatively if the figure is for both releases what would the split be .. 250,000 for TMG 577 and 190,000 for TMG 911?

    Roger

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    It's also worth pointing out that the Official Chart Company didn't come into being until the late 1980s, so I would say that any sales figures prior to then are mainly based on record company claims. The charts that were compiled up to then were based on a sample of stores, not every outlet, and those of you who were buying records throughout the 1970s and early 80s will recall that the sample stores very rarely took account of regional hits, with several Northern Soul releases doing fantastically well in the north and not making the chart because none of the southern stores reported any sales. I worked at Pye for most of this period, and we spent weeks trying to break Kelly Marie's Feels Like I'm In Love - it was a massive seller in Scotland long before it finally made the chart.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger View Post
    Does anyone know precisely how reissues are treated in this list ..

    Virtually all of the "Classic Motown" hits were reissued [[with a new catalogue number and often a different "B" side) on 45 at least once in the UK in the 70's and '80 and with the following four the reissue sold enough to make the UK charts ..

    7. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye [[1969) 500,000+ *
    8. Baby Love - The Supremes [[1964) 500,000
    14. The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson and the Miracles [[1970) 460,000
    16. What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Jimmy Ruffin [[1966) 440,000

    Looking at my Guinness book of British Hit Singles they had the following chart runs ..

    MARVIN GAYE .. "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" ..

    Original issue in 1969 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 686 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 3 weeks.

    Reissue in 1986, prompted by the use of the tune in a Levi's ad-campaign .. Tamla-Motown ZB 40701 .. 8 weeks on the chart peaking at #8.

    SUPREMES - "Baby Love"

    Original issue in 1964 .. Stateside SS 350 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 2 weeks.

    Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 915 .. 12 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.

    SMOKEY ROBINSON & THE MIRACLES - "Tears Of a Clown"

    Original issue in 1970 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 745 .. 14 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 1 week.

    Reissue in 1976, as part of a number of "back-to-back hits" reissues .. Tamla Motown TMG 1046 .. 6 weeks on the chart peaking at #34.

    JIMMY RUFFIN - "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted"

    Original issue in 1966 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 577 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.

    Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 911 .. 13 weeks on the chart peaking at #4.

    The only one of the reissues that had the same "B" side as the original was "Baby Love"/"Ask Any Girl" so I can't see how the list can legitimately combine sales of all issues ..

    The most interesting of these 4 I find to be the JIMMY RUFFIN song, which was actually a bigger UK chart hit when reissued in 1974 than it had been back in 1966 .. and yet the list implies that the sales figure of 440,000 is for the TMG 577 1966 release. Does anyone know if the figure actually includes the 1974 reissue?

    Assuming that the figure of 440,000 is just for TMG 577 it makes me wonder what the figure would be if TMG 911 were included. Alternatively if the figure is for both releases what would the split be .. 250,000 for TMG 577 and 190,000 for TMG 911?

    Roger
    I just don't know but on the figures it would look as if they have all been treated as re-issues and the the sales amalgamated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspurman View Post
    It's also worth pointing out that the Official Chart Company didn't come into being until the late 1980s, so I would say that any sales figures prior to then are mainly based on record company claims. The charts that were compiled up to then were based on a sample of stores, not every outlet, and those of you who were buying records throughout the 1970s and early 80s will recall that the sample stores very rarely took account of regional hits, with several Northern Soul releases doing fantastically well in the north and not making the chart because none of the southern stores reported any sales. I worked at Pye for most of this period, and we spent weeks trying to break Kelly Marie's Feels Like I'm In Love - it was a massive seller in Scotland long before it finally made the chart.






    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspurman View Post
    It's also worth pointing out that the Official Chart Company didn't come into being until the late 1980s, so I would say that any sales figures prior to then are mainly based on record company claims. The charts that were compiled up to then were based on a sample of stores, not every outlet, and those of you who were buying records throughout the 1970s and early 80s will recall that the sample stores very rarely took account of regional hits, with several Northern Soul releases doing fantastically well in the north and not making the chart because none of the southern stores reported any sales. I worked at Pye for most of this period, and we spent weeks trying to break Kelly Marie's Feels Like I'm In Love - it was a massive seller in Scotland long before it finally made the chart.
    Until the BMRB started compiling the charts in the UK in 1969 there are no records of over the counter sales so any figures have to come from the record companies.

    The OCC is operated jointly by the BPI and the Entertainment Retailers Association [[formerly Briitish Association Of Record Dealers) and as such will be able to access all the sales figures. They're not naive and will have means of verifying that claims are not unrealistic.

    There are certainly all sorts of rumours too about the BMRB charts with claims by some of those collecting the diaries that they were "COOKED".

    Checks were done from time to see if the figures produced by the Chart Companies tallied with those given by the Record Companies.

    The first of these was in 1976 and it turned out that differences were mostly within quite a small range which vindicated the BMRB.

    That was when they found out that the British artist Cliff Richard was quietly selling back catalogue sales year on year and had actually shifted far more singles than anyone suspected.

    Anyway that's all off topic. Now I wouldn't say the OCC is infallible but they are reputable and an official voice. Unless there is incontrovertable proof I don't see why their findings in relation to this chart should be questioned.

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by florence View Post
    The BPI which is responsible for certifications in the UK only took this over in 1973.

    Before this the award was presented by Disc [[a weekly music magazine) - NOT Record Mirror and it was on the word of a senior executive of the record company concerned and there was NO independent audit! Some companies wouldn't even bother to request one.

    There is no particular reason why There's A Ghost In My House should be on the list. All reaching #3 [[the official peak) tells you that in that week the record was the third best selling single in the UK. Total sales will depend the size of the market at the time and also the time of the year etc. It was after the BPI was doing the certifications and didn't get a Silver Disc. I don't see any reason why Motown wouldn't claim this if the record reached the 250,000 figure as EMI [[the parent company) did for other records on the label.

    The OCC is the official chart company in the UK and is operated jointly by the BPI and Entertainment Reatilers Ascociation and has access to all sales figures. Before a certain date these will be the company's own figures [[shipments less returns).

    The Motown best-selling list is compiled by them and unless anyone has proof to the contrary is correct. There will always be conspiracy thories but there is no reason why this list should be wrong.

    I don't see that you have any basis for saying "the list is full of errors", Strange.
    Well Florence, all I can see are logical comparisons as my basis for anything and everything I state about sales, plus I make sure I fully understand and research the industry and exactly the way things were for the period and country under consideration before I comment. If I'm not sure I don't post.

    So maybe I should point out the facts that are wrong in your post above that will have misled the [[very?) few others who might be following or caring about all this? Firstly, there is no difference at all between a BPI award from their inaugural awards starting in April 1973 in the UK and those presented by Disc & Music Echo magazine [[indeed not as mottony said Record Mirror, but that was no doubt a slip of the memory) since March 1959. It is wrong to say otherwise, and all I can think is perhaps you were under a misapprehension of some kind of independent audit taking place when the BPI got involved, such as arranged by the RIAA here in the States?

    So for everyone who cares, please understand that the silver, gold, platinum and beyond certification award system in Great Britain has always been run on the basis of trust, involving a simple declaration from the record company concerned that a sales level had been achieved. A very British thing, but there has never been anything else required. The only adjustment when the BPI became involved was the requirement for the request for certification letter to be signed by a Certified or Chartered Accountant or other financial officer within the employ of the label/company as it was felt they had a professional code that they would not wish to jeopardise over something as trivial as a sales award. Nothing more.

    Secondly, the fact that some company's may not have applied was entirely up to them and matters not very much as there are more than enough who did get involved to make them visible from any studied look at the charts - that is unless one feels the charts are also a waste of time in terms of reflecting sales patterns?. There is a world of difference between writing a letter and deciding to 'fib' about a claim and allowing outside auditors in to consider your accounts, which is what Berry Gordy clearly didn't want to have happen in the States. I don't blame him, and the RIAA knew full well that doing things on trust would never work.

    But back to the facts again about those silver discs in the UK. On the other thread discussing some outlandish sales claims for 'Stoned Love' it was stated that this Top 30 Selling Motown Singles list existed and had the single at 355k. I said in a post at the top of this page that Motony's observation about the UK silver disc award scheme was probably all I or anyone needed to consider to see that the list had to be suspect. I didn't think I needed to elaborate. We then had Roger post his surprise that 'There's A Ghost In My House' was missing, to which I also agreed and pointed out that it had one a silver disc, implying but not dreaming that I had to spell out the obvious that 'Stoned Love' hadn't managed to get a silver award.

    If it was all just about the No. 3 position of the two records Florence I'd be with you and could not comment on the likely veracity of the Motown list. But we have one with an award and one without, and on the same label. All I can imagine again is for some reason you think the R Dean Taylor didn't 'go silver', but I can assure you it very much did around 6th July 1974. So what we have here - and there are plenty more examples that I could site - is very much proof to the contrary that this list [[with or without the imaginary sales appended by some enthusiastic soul) is far from correct. That is unless anyone reckons 'Stoned Love' was both overlooked by EMI/Motown for an award and/or could seriously have gone on to exceed 'Ghost' by a further 105k.

    Finally, I really don't know what you are trying to say about the OCC so I'll let that go. Suffice to say they have no access to anything other than the Millward Brown retail data in the same way that Billboard has to Soundscan information. They pay a licence fee and get what they pay for - just as you or I could.

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Well Florence, all I can see are logical comparisons as my basis for anything and everything I state about sales, plus I make sure I fully understand and research the industry and exactly the way things were for the period and country under consideration before I comment. If I'm not sure I don't post.

    So maybe I should point out the facts that are wrong in your post above that will have misled the [[very?) few others who might be following or caring about all this? Firstly, there is no difference at all between a BPI award from their inaugural awards starting in April 1973 in the UK and those presented by Disc & Music Echo magazine [[indeed not as mottony said Record Mirror, but that was no doubt a slip of the memory) since March 1959. It is wrong to say otherwise, and all I can think is perhaps you were under a misapprehension of some kind of independent audit taking place when the BPI got involved, such as arranged by the RIAA here in the States?

    So for everyone who cares, please understand that the silver, gold, platinum and beyond certification award system in Great Britain has always been run on the basis of trust, involving a simple declaration from the record company concerned that a sales level had been achieved. A very British thing, but there has never been anything else required. The only adjustment when the BPI became involved was the requirement for the request for certification letter to be signed by a Certified or Chartered Accountant or other financial officer within the employ of the label/company as it was felt they had a professional code that they would not wish to jeopardise over something as trivial as a sales award. Nothing more.

    Secondly, the fact that some company's may not have applied was entirely up to them and matters not very much as there are more than enough who did get involved to make them visible from any studied look at the charts - that is unless one feels the charts are also a waste of time in terms of reflecting sales patterns?. There is a world of difference between writing a letter and deciding to 'fib' about a claim and allowing outside auditors in to consider your accounts, which is what Berry Gordy clearly didn't want to have happen in the States. I don't blame him, and the RIAA knew full well that doing things on trust would never work.

    But back to the facts again about those silver discs in the UK. On the other thread discussing some outlandish sales claims for 'Stoned Love' it was stated that this Top 30 Selling Motown Singles list existed and had the single at 355k. I said in a post at the top of this page that Motony's observation about the UK silver disc award scheme was probably all I or anyone needed to consider to see that the list had to be suspect. I didn't think I needed to elaborate. We then had Roger post his surprise that 'There's A Ghost In My House' was missing, to which I also agreed and pointed out that it had one a silver disc, implying but not dreaming that I had to spell out the obvious that 'Stoned Love' hadn't managed to get a silver award.

    If it was all just about the No. 3 position of the two records Florence I'd be with you and could not comment on the likely veracity of the Motown list. But we have one with an award and one without, and on the same label. All I can imagine again is for some reason you think the R Dean Taylor didn't 'go silver', but I can assure you it very much did around 6th July 1974. So what we have here - and there are plenty more examples that I could site - is very much proof to the contrary that this list [[with or without the imaginary sales appended by some enthusiastic soul) is far from correct. That is unless anyone reckons 'Stoned Love' was both overlooked by EMI/Motown for an award and/or could seriously have gone on to exceed 'Ghost' by a further 105k.

    Finally, I really don't know what you are trying to say about the OCC so I'll let that go. Suffice to say they have no access to anything other than the Millward Brown retail data in the same way that Billboard has to Soundscan information. They pay a licence fee and get what they pay for - just as you or I could.
    I think it is an important difference that the claim had to be signed by a Certified or Chartered Accountant after the BPI took over.

    I can't understand why a search on the BPI site is showing no match for anything on R Dean Taylor - I've checked this several times now.

    Alos I do believe the OCC has access to Company sales data in collaboration with them.

  34. #84
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    Here, in the order they were given, are all of Motown's silver, gold and one platinum awards in th eUK. I've taken it up to Boyz II Men, the last award on the Motown label. D indicates an award given by Disc magazine, S is the BPI awarded silver disc, g for gold and p for platinum.
    D WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO SUPREMES
    D BABY LOVE SUPREMES
    D REACH OUT I'LL BE THERE FOUR TOPS
    D I HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE MARVIN GAYE
    D YESTER-ME YESTER-YOU YESTERDAY STEVIE WONDER
    S YOU ARE EVERYTHING DIANA ROSS & MARVIN GAYE
    S THERE'S A GHOST IN MY HOUSE R. DEAN TAYLOR
    S WHAT BECOMES OF THE BROKENHEARTED JIMMY RUFFIN
    S LOVE MACHINE [[PART 1) MIRACLES
    S I WISH STEVIE WONDER
    S SIR DUKE STEVIE WONDER
    G THREE TIMES A LADY COMMODORES
    S STILL COMMODORES
    S WITH YOU I'M BORN AGAIN BILLY PRESTON & SYREETA
    S UPSIDE DOWN DIANA ROSS
    S MASTERBLASTER [[JAMMIN') STEVIE WONDER
    S MY OLD PIANO DIANA ROSS
    S LATELY STEVIE WONDER
    G BEING WITH YOU SMOKEY ROBINSON
    G ONE DAY IN YOUR LIFE MICHAEL JACKSON
    S HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEVIE WONDER
    S I'VE NEVER BEEN TO ME CHARLENE
    S TRULY LIONEL RICHIE
    G HELLO LIONEL RICHIE
    P I JUST CALLED TO SAY I LOVE YOU STEVIE WONDER
    S NIGHTSHIFT COMMODORES
    S PART-TIME LOVER STEVIE WONDER
    S UNDER THE BOARDWALK BRUCE WILLIS
    G END OF THE ROAD BOYZ II MEN

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger View Post
    Does anyone know precisely how reissues are treated in this list ..

    Virtually all of the "Classic Motown" hits were reissued [[with a new catalogue number and often a different "B" side) on 45 at least once in the UK in the 70's and '80 and with the following four the reissue sold enough to make the UK charts ..

    7. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye [[1969) 500,000+ *
    8. Baby Love - The Supremes [[1964) 500,000
    14. The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson and the Miracles [[1970) 460,000
    16. What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Jimmy Ruffin [[1966) 440,000

    Looking at my Guinness book of British Hit Singles they had the following chart runs ..

    MARVIN GAYE .. "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" ..

    Original issue in 1969 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 686 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 3 weeks.

    Reissue in 1986, prompted by the use of the tune in a Levi's ad-campaign .. Tamla-Motown ZB 40701 .. 8 weeks on the chart peaking at #8.

    SUPREMES - "Baby Love"

    Original issue in 1964 .. Stateside SS 350 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 2 weeks.

    Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 915 .. 12 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.

    SMOKEY ROBINSON & THE MIRACLES - "Tears Of a Clown"

    Original issue in 1970 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 745 .. 14 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 1 week.

    Reissue in 1976, as part of a number of "back-to-back hits" reissues .. Tamla Motown TMG 1046 .. 6 weeks on the chart peaking at #34.

    JIMMY RUFFIN - "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted"

    Original issue in 1966 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 577 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.

    Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 911 .. 13 weeks on the chart peaking at #4.

    The only one of the reissues that had the same "B" side as the original was "Baby Love"/"Ask Any Girl" so I can't see how the list can legitimately combine sales of all issues ..

    The most interesting of these 4 I find to be the JIMMY RUFFIN song, which was actually a bigger UK chart hit when reissued in 1974 than it had been back in 1966 .. and yet the list implies that the sales figure of 440,000 is for the TMG 577 1966 release. Does anyone know if the figure actually includes the 1974 reissue?

    Assuming that the figure of 440,000 is just for TMG 577 it makes me wonder what the figure would be if TMG 911 were included. Alternatively if the figure is for both releases what would the split be .. 250,000 for TMG 577 and 190,000 for TMG 911?

    Roger
    I was thinking about this, Roger and wouldn't it be the same situation that applied at a later date where there were so many formats of a single allowed to count towards its chart sales? Mostly this meant the record company issued two CDs consisting of the "A" track but then each had different other tracks.

    So it would look likelt that the fact that there was a differnt B-side on the re-isued single didn't stop the sales being amalgamated.

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspurman View Post
    Here, in the order they were given, are all of Motown's silver, gold and one platinum awards in th eUK. I've taken it up to Boyz II Men, the last award on the Motown label. D indicates an award given by Disc magazine, S is the BPI awarded silver disc, g for gold and p for platinum.
    D WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO SUPREMES
    D BABY LOVE SUPREMES
    D REACH OUT I'LL BE THERE FOUR TOPS
    D I HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE MARVIN GAYE
    D YESTER-ME YESTER-YOU YESTERDAY STEVIE WONDER
    S YOU ARE EVERYTHING DIANA ROSS & MARVIN GAYE
    S THERE'S A GHOST IN MY HOUSE R. DEAN TAYLOR
    S WHAT BECOMES OF THE BROKENHEARTED JIMMY RUFFIN
    S LOVE MACHINE [[PART 1) MIRACLES
    S I WISH STEVIE WONDER
    S SIR DUKE STEVIE WONDER
    G THREE TIMES A LADY COMMODORES
    S STILL COMMODORES
    S WITH YOU I'M BORN AGAIN BILLY PRESTON & SYREETA
    S UPSIDE DOWN DIANA ROSS
    S MASTERBLASTER [[JAMMIN') STEVIE WONDER
    S MY OLD PIANO DIANA ROSS
    S LATELY STEVIE WONDER
    G BEING WITH YOU SMOKEY ROBINSON
    G ONE DAY IN YOUR LIFE MICHAEL JACKSON
    S HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEVIE WONDER
    S I'VE NEVER BEEN TO ME CHARLENE
    S TRULY LIONEL RICHIE
    G HELLO LIONEL RICHIE
    P I JUST CALLED TO SAY I LOVE YOU STEVIE WONDER
    S NIGHTSHIFT COMMODORES
    S PART-TIME LOVER STEVIE WONDER
    S UNDER THE BOARDWALK BRUCE WILLIS
    G END OF THE ROAD BOYZ II MEN

    Thanks for this Hotspurman because it spotlights the fact that Tamla Motown/EMI didn't bother to claim any certifications between 1970 and 1973 inclusive there being a gap between Stevie's Yester-Me to Diana & Marvin's Eeverything which is pertinent to Stoned Love in 1971.

    Maybe there weren't any [[unlikely) and it still doesn't prove that the record sold over 250k, of course but 1971 was the year of Diana's I'm Still Waiting which was #1 for four weeks and was claimed to be the biggest selling single to date on the TM label in the UK.

    I don't think there is any doubt that this was true at the time unless it was a bare-faced lie but chart performance and estimated sales would seem to bear this out and it does show that you can't take those years at face value.

    For some strange reason too, I still can't get the BPI site to show the certification for R Dean Taylor.

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by roger View Post
    Does anyone know precisely how reissues are treated in this list ..

    Virtually all of the "Classic Motown" hits were reissued [[with a new catalogue number and often a different "B" side) on 45 at least once in the UK in the 70's and '80 and with the following four the reissue sold enough to make the UK charts ..

    7. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye [[1969) 500,000+ *
    8. Baby Love - The Supremes [[1964) 500,000
    14. The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson and the Miracles [[1970) 460,000
    16. What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Jimmy Ruffin [[1966) 440,000

    Looking at my Guinness book of British Hit Singles they had the following chart runs ..

    MARVIN GAYE .. "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" ..

    Original issue in 1969 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 686 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 3 weeks.

    Reissue in 1986, prompted by the use of the tune in a Levi's ad-campaign .. Tamla-Motown ZB 40701 .. 8 weeks on the chart peaking at #8.

    SUPREMES - "Baby Love"

    Original issue in 1964 .. Stateside SS 350 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 2 weeks.

    Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 915 .. 12 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.

    SMOKEY ROBINSON & THE MIRACLES - "Tears Of a Clown"

    Original issue in 1970 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 745 .. 14 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 1 week.

    Reissue in 1976, as part of a number of "back-to-back hits" reissues .. Tamla Motown TMG 1046 .. 6 weeks on the chart peaking at #34.

    JIMMY RUFFIN - "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted"

    Original issue in 1966 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 577 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.

    Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 911 .. 13 weeks on the chart peaking at #4.

    The only one of the reissues that had the same "B" side as the original was "Baby Love"/"Ask Any Girl" so I can't see how the list can legitimately combine sales of all issues ..

    The most interesting of these 4 I find to be the JIMMY RUFFIN song, which was actually a bigger UK chart hit when reissued in 1974 than it had been back in 1966 .. and yet the list implies that the sales figure of 440,000 is for the TMG 577 1966 release. Does anyone know if the figure actually includes the 1974 reissue?

    Assuming that the figure of 440,000 is just for TMG 577 it makes me wonder what the figure would be if TMG 911 were included. Alternatively if the figure is for both releases what would the split be .. 250,000 for TMG 577 and 190,000 for TMG 911?

    Roger
    Those are more astute and observant thoughts of yours there Roger. Not to state the obvious, but of course only the OCC know how they have compiled the list and especially whether or not they have accounted for other releases or reissues of the same title. And let’s not lose sight of the fact that the figures are not theirs but some enthusiast who has tried to work out what the sales might be based on the ranking given.


    I am wholeheartedly with you in that whoever the list was compiled by it should not include the sales of any record that is released that is not the same as the original – i.e. has the same ‘B’-side. Anything else is not the same release and should be counted separately in both sales total and chart weeks/peak [[as it is in those Guinness Hit Singles books I believe). This happens a lot and to me is inexplicable; a change in catalogue number, or even label, is fine providing the pairing of the original release is replicated. As you say that is the only way that the OCC should legitimately combine the sales of all issues when arriving at their ranking list.

    That however is probably not the current thinking as a result of the download era whereby the emphasis is on the ‘track’ per se, rather than the ‘single’ as was originally released in the bad old days!

    So we really have just ‘Baby Love’ as a fully-counting reissue among those re-charting singles in the Motown Top 30, all the others are independent and different releases regardless of whether the lead ‘A’-side is obviously the main reason it was bought. But that’s clearly what the OCC have done; it just would be nice if they kinda said so! In all honesty even then it would be stretching things to arrive at 500,000 sales between the two totals ‘Baby Love’ totals. The same, it would seem, applies to the estimation for ‘I Heard It Through The Grapevine’, but as it isn’t the OCC who are making the claims it isn’t official anyway I guess…

    As for Jimmy Ruffin, there was also TMG 1052 from those Motown Gold reissues too that you and I wouldn’t count Roger [[unless identical to the original) and moreover could have been sold as part of a set – another ‘dark area’ as to whether they could/should get counted!

    Seeing as the 1974 Ruffin was awarded silver for 250,000-plus shipments I’d imagine that your sales split for TMG 577 & TMG 911 should be reversed – if we accepted it un-critically.

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    But Strange................if it's just a single, for example Baby Love, even with some other B side or whatever, why shouldn't it count in total sales? It's the same song, right? Isn't it splitting hairs somewhat?

    It's kind of like wanting to segregate Beyonce's sales from Destiny's Child and Diana Ross's from the Supremes or Lionel Richie's from the Commodores; they are so clearly the lead voice and sometimes the only voice on the recording; you can do it to be technically correct but it leads to all those asterisks like: * if her/his sales with the group are combined, Lionel/Diana/Beyonce will rank amongst the top 5 artists of the Rock Era.

    You know a lot about this issue so I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

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    I don’t know if the BPI have amended their information or removed some entries, but the listing I have is accurate. About ten years or so ago, I began writing a couple of books, Complete UK Hit Singles and Complete UK Hit Albums and spent many a day trawling through back issued of Music Week collating the information on sales awards. Then, when I discovered that I would have to pay the BPI for a licence to publish the information, I asked them to supply me with spreadsheets giving details of ALL sales certifications that had been awarded up to that point [[this would be about 2001). R Dean Taylor was definitely on the list as having been certified silver [[and if I could get into my old computer I may still have the original spreadsheet the BPI supplied, which also had the exact date of certification), hence its inclusion in my book. If I find the BPI sold me duff info, I shall ask for a partial refund....

  40. #90
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    Since the BPI have assumed control of all chart information since NME compiled the first one in 1952, here are two anomalies that they might like to address; maybe then we can work out how the sales figures for reissued Motown singles are arrived at.
    The first is Jane Birkin and Serge Gainsbourg’s ‘Je T’aime Moi Non Plus’ which was issued on the Fontana label in 1969 and had got as high as number two on the chart when the wife of Fontana’s MD announced the record to be disgusting, resulting in Fontana’s version being withdrawn. The record was immediately picked up by Major Minor, who eventually took it to the top of the charts, but both versions appeared on the chart listing, even though they were exactly the same record with exactly the same B side.
    The second one is Lulu, who in 1986 recorded an updated version of her old hit ‘Shout’. As it began to get airplay, Decca released the original version. For the purpose of the chart, both versions were added together, even though they were different recordings, on different labels and with different B sides – the combined sales were enough to get it back into the Top Ten.

  41. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by florence View Post
    Thanks for this Hotspurman because it spotlights the fact that Tamla Motown/EMI didn't bother to claim any certifications between 1970 and 1973 inclusive there being a gap between Stevie's Yester-Me to Diana & Marvin's Eeverything which is pertinent to Stoned Love in 1971.

    Maybe there weren't any [[unlikely) and it still doesn't prove that the record sold over 250k, of course but 1971 was the year of Diana's I'm Still Waiting which was #1 for four weeks and was claimed to be the biggest selling single to date on the TM label in the UK.

    I don't think there is any doubt that this was true at the time unless it was a bare-faced lie but chart performance and estimated sales would seem to bear this out and it does show that you can't take those years at face value.

    For some strange reason too, I still can't get the BPI site to show the certification for R Dean Taylor.
    I can only repeat what I’ve said before at the start of a post above Florence,


    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    If I'm not sure I don't post
    and while I can see you have a really sound grasp of much of this chart and sales baloney, I’m also getting the impression that you’d simply rather go with information from anywhere else than accept what I’m saying. It’s a free world, but let me assure you there is so much more to appreciate both in the UK and the US record industry than perhaps you realise.


    Hotspur too seems to have dug pretty deep into the available information and has found the R Dean Taylor award I pointed out for you [[and btw don't take the OCC or BPI websites as reliable), but still it is incomplete and as a result you have misguidedly relied on what you’ve been told to jump to more incorrect conclusions – presumably [[and I can understand this from years gone by in myself!) in your desire to see ‘Stoned Love’ at 355k.


    So I’ll elaborate one more time with the correct facts to hopefully show you that yes, you can take those years – any years – at face value providing you have the right data. In this case you need to know that ‘I’m Still Waiting’ was a silver Disc winner on 2nd October 1971, so Tamla Motown/EMI did bother with said certifications. From there you’ll maybe be able to also now accept that the sales estimates [[not the ranking, which is OCC provided) in that Motown Top 30 are indeed wrong as they relate to ‘Stoned Love’.

    I won’t bother with all the rest of them apart from what I’ve already noted to Roger above.

  42. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    But Strange................if it's just a single, for example Baby Love, even with some other B side or whatever, why shouldn't it count in total sales? It's the same song, right? Isn't it splitting hairs somewhat?

    It's kind of like wanting to segregate Beyonce's sales from Destiny's Child and Diana Ross's from the Supremes or Lionel Richie's from the Commodores; they are so clearly the lead voice and sometimes the only voice on the recording; you can do it to be technically correct but it leads to all those asterisks like: * if her/his sales with the group are combined, Lionel/Diana/Beyonce will rank amongst the top 5 artists of the Rock Era.

    You know a lot about this issue so I'm interested to hear what you have to say.
    Lol Jobeterob, I probably know too much about these issues and have maybe a bit too much of Mulder in me!

    You are right to see it the way you do from a strictly subjective and non-statistical standpoint. Indeed, there is little doubt as I posted that the single is usually a success because of the lead 'A'-side. In the mind of a statistician however there are also objective considerations and for my pains I consider a particular release or unit [[as it is described in the industry) as a separate entity unless it is to all intents and purposes the same.

    There is no doubt the download generation will view this differently and old dinosaurs like me who love their vinyl and Motown era will find their quaint old opinions swallowed up in the passage of time, but that is my preference. Where do we draw the line? The RIAA say that a reissue of an old album must have at least 75% of the original to qualify as the same for certification purposes. Consequently no single that does not have the same 'B'-side would meet that criteria. Equally they can count discs within box sets and multiply them up, whereas most folk are actually buying the box set for its additional contents and 'extras' too. Another trend has been in the 'old days' to market gold singles with both sides big hits, and who is to say which is the bigger and the one people were actually putting down their hard-earned for, often with separate acts involved - those Motown Gold singles were a case in point.

    It is a never-ending debate. I like the music most but if the stats are involved I like to keep it clear-cut - the download is one thing; the original single [[vinyl or CD) and any identical reissue is another. Everything else starts a new count - as Soundscan [[and the OCC in Britain come to that) does.

  43. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspurman View Post
    I don’t know if the BPI have amended their information or removed some entries, but the listing I have is accurate. About ten years or so ago, I began writing a couple of books, Complete UK Hit Singles and Complete UK Hit Albums and spent many a day trawling through back issued of Music Week collating the information on sales awards. Then, when I discovered that I would have to pay the BPI for a licence to publish the information, I asked them to supply me with spreadsheets giving details of ALL sales certifications that had been awarded up to that point [[this would be about 2001). R Dean Taylor was definitely on the list as having been certified silver [[and if I could get into my old computer I may still have the original spreadsheet the BPI supplied, which also had the exact date of certification), hence its inclusion in my book. If I find the BPI sold me duff info, I shall ask for a partial refund....
    That's interesting to know Hotspurman, it was obvious you had done some research above and beyond the norm to know about R Dean Taylor.

    Equally interesting that you had to pay the BPI for their info. Duff? - well we all make mistakes I guess and fast-key operators in setting up databases they don't comprehend the entries for might be an excuse...but I'm sure what they gave you was what they were convinced was correct.

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I can only repeat what I’ve said before at the start of a post above Florence,




    and while I can see you have a really sound grasp of much of this chart and sales baloney, I’m also getting the impression that you’d simply rather go with information from anywhere else than accept what I’m saying. It’s a free world, but let me assure you there is so much more to appreciate both in the UK and the US record industry than perhaps you realise.


    Hotspur too seems to have dug pretty deep into the available information and has found the R Dean Taylor award I pointed out for you [[and btw don't take the OCC or BPI websites as reliable), but still it is incomplete and as a result you have misguidedly relied on what you’ve been told to jump to more incorrect conclusions – presumably [[and I can understand this from years gone by in myself!) in your desire to see ‘Stoned Love’ at 355k.


    So I’ll elaborate one more time with the correct facts to hopefully show you that yes, you can take those years – any years – at face value providing you have the right data. In this case you need to know that ‘I’m Still Waiting’ was a silver Disc winner on 2nd October 1971, so Tamla Motown/EMI did bother with said certifications. From there you’ll maybe be able to also now accept that the sales estimates [[not the ranking, which is OCC provided) in that Motown Top 30 are indeed wrong as they relate to ‘Stoned Love’.

    I won’t bother with all the rest of them apart from what I’ve already noted to Roger above.

    Not true, Strange - I'm keeping an open mind.

    Yes, I would love to see Stoned Love at 355k - heck I would love to see it at 1m! - but in the end whether it has sold 500k or just 1k it won't make any difference to my life. What I DO want is the CORRECT figure, whatever that is. If it was only an amount of 20/30k difference there would be no problem but I while I know the OCC is not infallible and I don't willy-nilly accept all I am told I find it hard to believe it could be out to such an extent. I am sure they are aware of certifications etc.

    In view of the fact that Diana's ISW was certified it does seem unusual although not impossible that Stoned Love would not have been submitted for a silver disc. The list which Hotspur was supplied obviously has ommissions.

    I have a comprehensive list of the Siler Discs awarded in the 60s which I don't think is far wrong and [[in theory anyway) the BPI Database should include all these from 1974.

    Obviously you have another source for certifications since you have info on Diana's and R Dean Taylor's awards - is there a site which gives these?

    If the sales estimates are wrong then it is pretty certain that the order of ranking must be too i.e. R Dean Taylor's Ghost would be above The Supremes' Stoned Love.

    I'm currently contacting a number of UK singles sales statisticians to see if they have any figures for Stoned Love. I'm only speaking second-hand on the figures, but based on the ranking and certain hard information in relation to some of the records I am confident that the sales are right otherwise it is the ranking which is wrong.

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    I've contacted my mate Dave McAleer who was the Guinness' expert for many a year - if there is information out there, he will know...

  46. #96
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    It is because you have to pay IPC magazines for the use of the chart data from 1952 to 1960, the OCC for the use of chart data from 1960 onwards and the BPI for use of the certification information that the books became uneconomical in the long run. The same thing applied to Guinness, who had several full time staff to pay too. My reference to 'duff' was meant tongue in cheek - I don't doubt that what they gave me was what they believed to be correct and it was certainly comprehensive. Not entirely relevant to this thread, but I was given the exact dates of each certification level, meaning that Madonna's Immaculate Collection had entries for silver, gold and each of the twelve platinum awards. Ditto Abba, Queen etc etc.

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    But Strange................if it's just a single, for example Baby Love, even with some other B side or whatever, why shouldn't it count in total sales? It's the same song, right? Isn't it splitting hairs somewhat?
    But Jobeterob .. sometimes those "B" sides on the UK Motown reissue hits were themselves originally "A" sides.

    The most obvious example I can think of this is "My Girl" by THE TEMPTATIONS.

    If you go to everyhit.com [[which has UK Top 40 Chart info) and type TEMPTATIONS into the artist search you get the following ..

    21 Temptations Ain't Too Proud To Beg Jul 1966
    19 Temptations [[I Know) I'm Losing You Oct 1966
    18 Temptations Beauty Is Only Skin Deep Oct 1966
    26 Temptations You're My Everything Sep 1967
    10 Temptations Get Ready Mar 1969
    15 Temptations Cloud Nine Aug 1969
    13 Temptations I Can't Get Next To You Jan 1970
    33 Temptations Psychedelic Shack Jun 1970
    7 Temptations Ball Of Confusion Sep 1970
    8 Temptations Just My Imagination [[Running Away With Me) May 1971
    32 Temptations Superstar [[Remember How You Got Where You Are) Feb 1972
    13 Temptations Take A Look Around Apr 1972
    14 Temptations Papa Was A Rollin' Stone Jan 1973
    12 Temptations Treat Her Like A Lady Nov 1984
    31 Temptations Papa Was A Rollin' Stone [[remix) Aug 1987
    2 Temptations My Girl [[re-issue) Feb 1992

    This is the link to the site so you can try for yourself ..

    http://www.everyhit.com/searchsec.php

    When "My Girl" originally came out in 1965 the version by THE TEMPTATIONS [[Stateside SS 378) didn't exactly set the UK charts alight .. peaking at only #43 .. however the song itself did become very well known through the versions by THE ROLLING STONES and OTIS REDDING .. the version by OTIS REDDING even got to #11 on the UK charts.

    So .. if you look at the chart data for "My Girl" you can see that THE TEMPTATIONS version eventually WAS a big seller in 1992, and according to your logic sales totals for the 1992 release should also include the 1965 Stateside release.

    However, although the info on that site mentions that "My Girl" was a reissue [[implying perhaps that sales of the original release might go towards any awards) what it doesn't point out is that the 1969 release of "Get Ready" on Tamla Motown TMG 688 actually had "My Girl" as its "B" side.

    Just like "My Girl" the original 1966 UK release of "Get Ready" [[Tamla Motown TMG 557) didn't sell well and according to the Guinness book of British Hit Singles didn't even scrape into the Top 50.

    Now according to your logic sales of TMG 557 should be added to those of TMG 688 when totalling sales of "Get Ready", but are you saying that when total sales of "My Girl" are totted up they should include TMG 688 or not?

    Now, I don't recall "My Girl" getting much UK airplay in preference to "Get Ready" in 1969 but I think I can be pretty certain that some people who bought that 1969 re-release did so because they were more interested in getting a copy of "My Girl".

    If you are saying that sales of TMG 688 should be included as sales of "My Girl" then we end up with double counting.

    If you are saying that sales of TMG 688 should not be included as sales of "My Girl" on the basis that it was the official "B" side then we have a dilemma with "double sided hits", notably the second UK Motown release after "Get Ready"/"My Girl" which was "I Don't Know Why I Love You"/"My Cherie Amour" by STEVIE WONDER.

    "I Don't Know Why" was a big hit in Britain, according to my Guinness book it got to #11 and spent 11 weeks on the Top 50 .. in the US it didn't do very well, only peaking at #39 on Billboard's Hot 100 so Motown in the US flipped it over and made "My Cherie Amour" the "A" side. When "I Don't know Why" dropped off the UK chart EMI/Tamla-Motown did exactly the same in Britain and "My Cherie Amour" became an even bigger hit .. reaching #4 and spending 15 weeks in the UK Top 50.

    So, if "B" sides are to be excluded, how do we calculate overall UK sales of "My Cherie Amour"? Do we include or exclude sales of "I Don't Know Why" when that was the "A" side? Alternatively we could say that "My Cherie Amour" was only ever the "B" side and therefore it doesn't count and all sales were for "I Don't Know Why" [[which would make the inclusion of "My Cherie Amour" in all those UK "Big Motown Hit" compilations a bit incongruous!!).

    All of these weird complications neatly evaporate if we just take the simple approach and only count identical release "pairings" towards our totals.



    Roger
    Last edited by roger; 12-09-2011 at 01:29 PM.

  48. #98
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    Now here's something interesting - I thought I'd have a look at the album certifications for Motown in the UK, and here I'm Still Waiting does make an appearance, as do several pre-BPI albums. Since these albums appear on the BPI listing and the original awards were not done retrospectively, I can only assume that these albums sold the required copies after the BPI came into existence. I also know that Disc magazine certified only one album - Elvis Presley - between 1959 and 1973; not one of the Beatles albums prior to The Beatles 1962-66 and The Beatles 1967-70 has a certification, although you would have assumed they all sold more than enough copies to have earnt something from Disc magazine.

    Okay, here are the Motown albums awards:
    G MOTOWN CHARTBUSTERS VOLUME 3 VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    S I'M STILL WAITING DIANA ROSS
    G THE MOTOWN STORY VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    S GREATEST HITS JACKSON FIVE
    G GREATEST HITS DIANA ROSS
    S LOOKIN' THROUGH THE WINDOWS JACKSON FIVE
    S BEN MICHAEL JACKSON
    G TALKING BOOK STEVIE WONDER
    G INNERVISIONS STEVIE WONDER
    G TOUCH ME IN THE MORNING DIANA ROSS
    G LADY SINGS THE BLUES [[OST) DIANA ROSS
    G MOTOWN CHARTBUSTERS VOLUME 8 VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G DIANA AND MARVIN DIANA ROSS & MARVIN GAYE
    G FULFILLINGNESS' FIRST FINALE STEVIE WONDER
    G MOTOWN GOLD VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G DIANA ROSS DIANA ROSS
    G GREATEST HITS 2 DIANA ROSS
    P SONGS IN THE KEY OF LIFE STEVIE WONDER
    S AN EVENING WITH DIANA ROSS DIANA ROSS
    S MOTOWN GOLD VOLUME 2 VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G NATURAL HIGH COMMODORES
    G BIG WHEELS OF MOTOWN VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G GREATEST HITS COMMODORES
    G MIDNIGHT MAGIC COMMODORES
    G THE SECRET LIFE OF PLANTS STEVIE WONDER
    P 20 GOLDEN GREATS DIANA ROSS
    G THE LAST DANCE VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G DIANA DIANA ROSS
    P HOTTER THAN JULY STEVIE WONDER
    S BEST OF MICHAEL JACKSON MICHAEL JACKSON
    P ALL THE GREAT HITS DIANA ROSS
    S DIANA'S DUETS DIANA ROSS
    G ORIGINAL MUSIQUARIUM 1 STEVIE WONDER
    P LIONEL RICHIE LIONEL RICHIE
    P3 CAN'T SLOW DOWN LIONEL RICHIE
    G FAREWELL MY SUMMER LOVE MICHAEL JACKSON
    P WOMAN IN RED [[OST) STEVIE WONDER & FEATURING DIONNE WARWICK
    G IN SQUARE CIRCLE STEVIE WONDER
    P2 DANCING ON THE CEILING LIONEL RICHIE
    G THE RETURN OF BRUNO BRUCE WILLIS
    G MOTOWN DANCE PARTY VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    S LOVE SUPREME DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES
    P4 BACK TO FRONT LIONEL RICHIE
    S MOTOWN'S GREATEST LOVE SONGS VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G COOLEYHIGHHARMONY BOYZ II MEN
    G THE VERY BEST OF MARVIN GAYE MARVIN GAYE
    G THE ULTIMATE HITS COLLECTION VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    P TRULY - THE LOVE SONGS LIONEL RICHIE
    G THE LOVE SONGS MARVIN GAYE
    S ACOUSTIC SOUL INDIA ARIE
    G THE NO 1'S DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES
    S A TIME 2 LOVE STEVIE WONDER
    S NUMBER 1'S STEVIE WONDER

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Another trend has been in the 'old days' to market gold singles with both sides big hits, and who is to say which is the bigger and the one people were actually putting down their hard-earned for, often with separate acts involved - those Motown Gold singles were a case in point.
    Agree with your observations to jobeterob above Roger. That's pretty much what I was trying to say in the excerpt above to him too.

    The statistician in me wants to count the sales of a release as was originally intended and not be bothered with later marketing ploys and products to milk the song. That is an entirely different game, and we should be considering contacting the songwriters to really find out how many 'Baby Love' or whatever sold in all its incarnations and appearances from the very first Stateside single to all the hit and compilation records over the years - that tells us how successful the song itself was, and good luck with that anyone who tries!

    Then there is the even badder bad old days of sheet music etc....

    Nope, for simplicity and clarity's sake Roger and I have it about right - the original and any exact re-issues should be added and anything else can start from zero. If people then wish to be precise and say 'Baby Love' [[or whatever) sold 'xxx' in all its promotions as a single, then that would be clear and acceptable. Boring though it is!

  50. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspurman View Post
    Now here's something interesting - I thought I'd have a look at the album certifications for Motown in the UK, and here I'm Still Waiting does make an appearance, as do several pre-BPI albums. Since these albums appear on the BPI listing and the original awards were not done retrospectively, I can only assume that these albums sold the required copies after the BPI came into existence. I also know that Disc magazine certified only one album - Elvis Presley - between 1959 and 1973; not one of the Beatles albums prior to The Beatles 1962-66 and The Beatles 1967-70 has a certification, although you would have assumed they all sold more than enough copies to have earnt something from Disc magazine.

    Okay, here are the Motown albums awards:
    G MOTOWN CHARTBUSTERS VOLUME 3 VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    S I'M STILL WAITING DIANA ROSS
    G THE MOTOWN STORY VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    S GREATEST HITS JACKSON FIVE
    G GREATEST HITS DIANA ROSS
    S LOOKIN' THROUGH THE WINDOWS JACKSON FIVE
    S BEN MICHAEL JACKSON
    G TALKING BOOK STEVIE WONDER
    G INNERVISIONS STEVIE WONDER
    G TOUCH ME IN THE MORNING DIANA ROSS
    G LADY SINGS THE BLUES [[OST) DIANA ROSS
    G MOTOWN CHARTBUSTERS VOLUME 8 VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G DIANA AND MARVIN DIANA ROSS & MARVIN GAYE
    G FULFILLINGNESS' FIRST FINALE STEVIE WONDER
    G MOTOWN GOLD VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G DIANA ROSS DIANA ROSS
    G GREATEST HITS 2 DIANA ROSS
    P SONGS IN THE KEY OF LIFE STEVIE WONDER
    S AN EVENING WITH DIANA ROSS DIANA ROSS
    S MOTOWN GOLD VOLUME 2 VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G NATURAL HIGH COMMODORES
    G BIG WHEELS OF MOTOWN VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G GREATEST HITS COMMODORES
    G MIDNIGHT MAGIC COMMODORES
    G THE SECRET LIFE OF PLANTS STEVIE WONDER
    P 20 GOLDEN GREATS DIANA ROSS
    G THE LAST DANCE VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G DIANA DIANA ROSS
    P HOTTER THAN JULY STEVIE WONDER
    S BEST OF MICHAEL JACKSON MICHAEL JACKSON
    P ALL THE GREAT HITS DIANA ROSS
    S DIANA'S DUETS DIANA ROSS
    G ORIGINAL MUSIQUARIUM 1 STEVIE WONDER
    P LIONEL RICHIE LIONEL RICHIE
    P3 CAN'T SLOW DOWN LIONEL RICHIE
    G FAREWELL MY SUMMER LOVE MICHAEL JACKSON
    P WOMAN IN RED [[OST) STEVIE WONDER & FEATURING DIONNE WARWICK
    G IN SQUARE CIRCLE STEVIE WONDER
    P2 DANCING ON THE CEILING LIONEL RICHIE
    G THE RETURN OF BRUNO BRUCE WILLIS
    G MOTOWN DANCE PARTY VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    S LOVE SUPREME DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES
    P4 BACK TO FRONT LIONEL RICHIE
    S MOTOWN'S GREATEST LOVE SONGS VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    G COOLEYHIGHHARMONY BOYZ II MEN
    G THE VERY BEST OF MARVIN GAYE MARVIN GAYE
    G THE ULTIMATE HITS COLLECTION VARIOUS ARTISTS [[MOTOWN)
    P TRULY - THE LOVE SONGS LIONEL RICHIE
    G THE LOVE SONGS MARVIN GAYE
    S ACOUSTIC SOUL INDIA ARIE
    G THE NO 1'S DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES
    S A TIME 2 LOVE STEVIE WONDER
    S NUMBER 1'S STEVIE WONDER
    Good, I could tell Hotspurman was likely to dig further. 'I'm Still Waiting' has been raised elsewhere as it was [[I believe) a re-titled version of the original US album 'Surrender' to take advantage of the single's success in the UK.

    This is the sort of confusion that I was referring to with the fast-key operators; great research and logical conclusion.

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