Should Susaye have been the last lead singer?

[jim aka jtigre99]

I know many have said that once Jean left, that the Supremes didn't have that same identifiable sound of a high voiced lead singer. I don't agree, but I read Susaye was told by Pedro that she would be joining as lead singer. Would her high voice continued that tradition of the Supremes? Multioctave ranges were popular at that time with Minnie Riperton and Deniece Williams already having huge hits. What do you think? Would this have helped or hindered the group? I loved Scherrie and Mary sharing leads and Susaye have a featured lead, but that is just my personal liking. From a show business standpoint, would Susaye have helped carry on that tradition?

[Thornton]

I'm happy with the way things worked out in terms of MSS splitting leads, but I do think Susaye could have handled lead vocals. Her interpretation of "I'm Gonna Let Me Heart Do The Walking" is brilliant and a good example of how she might have handled songs that went to Scherrie. I can also imagine her singing "Baby Love" and "Stop! In The Name of Love" during the 60's hits medley. On top of all that, Susaye has a spark that wins over the audience.

[sup_fan]

i think Scherrie was the best for leads overall as her voice was the most commercial. it could masterfully maneuver through those heavily produced dance tracks and come across as both powerful and nimble.

the MSS lineup was "supreme" at least in the studios. their three voices on Sweet Dream Machine show how they could maintain individual sounds yet compliment each other perfectly within 1 song. so sharing leads would be seamless. But not EVERY song can be shared leads - its gets too tiring and fractured.

the Hollands definitely utilized her voice effectively to create a whole new sound for the girls. and I like Come Into My Life a lot - it's amazing how they seemed to craft that totally around her voice. pretty much anyone else doing it would have made it a hot mess. So clearly there's the "what if" - what could have come after the MSS album and how could the group sound evolve?

as for what pedro said, i've not heard that she would be THE lead but that they'd all be singing lead. I did hear that Susaye was told she could probably eventually work with writing and producing. that clearly didn't happen but it was such a narrow time, again perhaps those future "what ifs" would have seen some of this?

[marybrewster]

Susaye is fantastic on record. Heck, MSS was too. But live?

[sup_fan]

Susaye is fantastic on record. Heck, MSS was too. But live?

their show was a disaster! lol but from what fans have mentioned and shared, that was NOT S or S but Mary and Pedro.

what i've pieced together is during the Jean years, motown was still heavily involved in the managerial decisions. while i have my suspicions that Mary was also big on NOT updating the group's image and clinging to the old Vegas-y sequin look, it seems motown was also involved and had a big hand in the resurrection of the DRATS content and song book in late 72. pulling out things like Somewhere and You're Noboy.

anyway, by the time it was MSC and MSS, motown had little to no involvement - I'm guessing. or maybe a better way to say it is that motown didn't care much one way or the other. so the decisions on gowns, songs, staging, etc was i think the responsibility of Supremes Inc which is Mary's and Pedro's organization

there's a clip of Susaye as a Raelette doing My Funny Valentine. it's gorgeous and allows her to beautifully show off her range and talent. as a Supreme, she was mostly relegated to whatever songs they had the arrangements for from the Jean era - He Ain't Heavy was a solo number for Jean. at the disastrous Caesar's engagement Susaye did People - which was another jean solo piece. i'm guessing but by the time they got to the spring of 77 and into the farewell, maybe susaye just said "i'm doing something new and different" and did the Stevie piece. plus she had helped produce and sing on some of Songs In The Key Of Life so that makes perfect sense

[RanRan79]

I know many have said that once Jean left, that the Supremes didn't have that same identifiable sound of a high voiced lead singer. I don't agree, but I read Susaye was told by Pedro that she would be joining as lead singer. Would her high voice continued that tradition of the Supremes? Multioctave ranges were popular at that time with Minnie Riperton and Deniece Williams already having huge hits. What do you think? Would this have helped or hindered the group? I loved Scherrie and Mary sharing leads and Susaye have a featured lead, but that is just my personal liking. From a show business standpoint, would Susaye have helped carry on that tradition?

My answer? Sort of. But not really.

So the problem I have is that I have to deal with the two sides of myself: the one side that isn't a fan of Susaye's voice most of the time, and the other side that tries to see things a bit more unbiased.

From an unbiased standpoint, because of the type of voice Susaye has- light, kind of thin- she fits into the brand of the group, following in the tradition of Diana and Jean. However, by the time she came into the group, the group dynamic had clearly evolved from "The Supremes With Lead Singer" thing. For Susaye to have had a chance as lead singer, she would have needed to take over when Jean left. In other words MCS would never have been a thing. I don't think she would have done very well on the songs Scherrie sang lead on. She probably would have done very well with the ballads Mary sang. And it should not be overlooked that Susaye looked the part. She was gorgeous and had a certain "it" factor on stage, which was a prerequisite of the job, having been something all the Supremes, from Flo to Susaye [[I'm excluding Barbara), had in common. So it's possible that with the right song, or set of songs, crafted specifically for her, Susaye might have had a chance to right the ship a bit with the general public. I do feel like with a tweak here and there, "High Energy" could have been a hit record.

On the other hand, I find her voice to sometimes be terribly annoying [[as I do Minnie Riperton's voice most of the time) and doing too much, so as a lead singer I prefer the job get handed to Scherrie and/or Mary, both of who's voices I enjoy more.

I don't want to sound like I'm kicking Susaye around, so I must make sure I mention that her vocal on New Birth's "Until It's Time For You To Go" knocks me OUT. Every time. New Birth is one of my favorite bands of all time, and "Until" is easily in my top five favorite cuts of theirs.

[sup_fan]

one thing to remember is that all of the live recordings we have of the MSS are multi-generational bootlegs. so there's going to be distortions to the sound quality. and they were all recorded on someone's like Sony tape deck in the middle of the theater - not professionally recorded live.

another problem the MSS lineup had was trying to figure out the right and best way to translate their studio recorded songs to stage. it the studio, you have the luxury of being able to layer vocals, fade, add echo, etc.

one of the most obvious and annoying translations from studio to stage was in LYG and how the girls would repeat the word Go. it appears they were attempting to accommodate the echo effect used on the recording. but a poor decision

another is in Walking. again with the backing vocals. the backing vocals repeat after Scherrie "do the walking" during the chorus and on the recording, because there are MSC doing the backing vocals [[and possibly some layering) it works to do the octave. but live its just Mary and Susaye doing the backings. they should have sang unison and skipped the octave work. it would just be a more full, stronger sound. plus mary's mic was always set higher so you hear her booming contralto notes and it's all out of balance.

for Susaye's ad libs and accent work, you have her having to pretty much just jump out and hit these mega high notes. as we now know, her full lead recording on Walking is where they pulled these segments from and the peppered them into the final record. but to have her just randomly sing these out, without preparing, is a HUGE challenge for the vocalist.

[sup_fan]

another point is that unfortunately we don't have strong ballads from either S or S in the studio. basically if it was a ballad, mary did it. and mary did some great ballads. but all we really got from scherrie were dance tunes. in order to determine a lead singer, you need to be able to hear the variety that they can sing.

susaye also has a much more unusual voice. both her tone and her skills. that allows for fascinating experimentation. but the sups legacy was much more about traditional music, MOR, Vegas, showtunes. for Susaye to be lead, she'd need to be able to easily and readily adapt to all of these genres and in a more traditional manner. that's why i think Scherrie lends herself more to the overall lead

[Spreadinglove21]

Susaye has an interesting and unique voice, but I don't care for her lead take on I'm gonna Let My Heart that was issued with the Let Yourself Go boxset. I think the Hollands did a brilliant job extracting the best parts of that vocal to put on the released single version of the song as ad libs/background. High Energy and Come Into My Life are much better showcases for Susaye.

[BobbyC]

No way in hell. Scherrie and Mary all the way

[Legendaryfan28]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QyhfLu...1wdHkgc3VzYXll

looking on YouTube, stumbled on this. Let’s be real, you want to sit for 90 mins listening to this? Not saying she isn’t talented, but for The Supremes, Susaye as a lead singer would have taken them back a lot of steps. With Scherrie as the final lead singer her voice was more commercial and pleasant. Susaye could never sing this genre of music on the lead, her voice wasn’t trained for it, nor is it natural for the genre. As for someone saying she fits the part visually as a Supreme, I utterly disagree. Just watch the American bandstand performance of them performing Let my heart do the walking, no glam, no make up, no lashes [[which I’m sorry was and still is an iconic part of this group). To sum everything up, Susaye as lead would have never worked, and Mary made the right decision bringing Scherrie into the group as the new lead.

[blackguy69]

It’s interesting that we use the term commercial voice when were referring to the girls when you never heard that term outside Motown or being used to other Motown ladies. The Supremes from 73 on were definitely not the same as previous lineups. Officially Mary was in charge and doing half of the lead duties while Scherrie came aboard to handle the rest. I do think susaye with the right material could easily found her spot as we saw but needed to work on the live performances.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QyhfLu...1wdHkgc3VzYXll

looking on YouTube, stumbled on this. Let’s be real, you want to sit for 90 mins listening to this? Not saying she isn’t talented, but for The Supremes, Susaye as a lead singer would have taken them back a lot of steps. With Scherrie as the final lead singer her voice was more commercial and pleasant. Susaye could never sing this genre of music on the lead, her voice wasn’t trained for it, nor is it natural for the genre. As for someone saying she fits the part visually as a Supreme, I utterly disagree. Just watch the American bandstand performance of them performing Let my heart do the walking, no glam, no make up, no lashes [[which I’m sorry was and still is an iconic part of this group). To sum everything up, Susaye as lead would have never worked, and Mary made the right decision bringing Scherrie into the group as the new lead.

[gman]

Never....I am another one that doesn't find high pitched, sonic or piercing vocals appealing at all....when the material fits, for a spotlight solo, OK...ditto Florence and Lynda [[Lynda recorded some excellent solo sides for Motorcity) ...I loved Marys style, but her strength as a lead vocalist was still developing and the faster songs were a bit of a challenge.....Scherrie added exactly what was needed, visual and vocal excitement...and I loved Cindy too much with her soft tones and presence to see her go yet AGAIN! she is my all time favorite singing partner for Mary regardless of who the lead singer is....the 70's live blend was wonderful...I've said it before...Susaye would have made a great guest star...a la Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes featuring Sharon Paige...MS&S is a excellent disco LP....But High Energy is smoother and more accomodating to folks who like pop and soul...it was set for a wider audience than the last LP...Live the last unit was a mess...the hits medley was a rush job horror...the best live performance I've seen of the final trio is the duet with UDO...Walk Away...Unfortunately, the live act seemed to always be a harder like for me than the studio LPS....too much speed, too much brass...I've seen Mary live with 7 pieces and it was great...the Jean/Scherrie/Lynda FLO's live performance at the Dominion blows away anything by any grouping labeled DRATS or Supremes IMHO...the pace of the instrumental tracks was much better, and the lack of loud overdone big time brass wasn't missed at all...Susayes 2 LP solos High Energy and Come Into My Life are wonderful...and IN THE NIGHT is one of my fav songs...I don't like her contributions to background vocals or lead vocals on the classics at all...just my opinion...for me, despite loving Scherrie, the FLO's were over once Jean left...

[BayouMotownMan]

Never....I am another one that doesn't find high pitched, sonic or piercing vocals appealing at all....when the material fits, for a spotlight solo, OK...ditto Florence and Lynda [[Lynda recorded some excellent solo sides for Motorcity) ...I loved Marys style, but her strength as a lead vocalist was still developing and the faster songs were a bit of a challenge.....Scherrie added exactly what was needed, visual and vocal excitement...and I loved Cindy too much with her soft tones and presence to see her go yet AGAIN! she is my all time favorite singing partner for Mary regardless of who the lead singer is....the 70's live blend was wonderful...I've said it before...Susaye would have made a great guest star...a la Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes featuring Sharon Paige...MS&S is a excellent disco LP....But High Energy is smoother and more accomodating to folks who like pop and soul...it was set for a wider audience than the last LP...Live the last unit was a mess...the hits medley was a rush job horror...the best live performance I've seen of the final trio is the duet with UDO...Walk Away...Unfortunately, the live act seemed to always be a harder like for me than the studio LPS....too much speed, too much brass...I've seen Mary live with 7 pieces and it was great...the Jean/Scherrie/Lynda FLO's live performance at the Dominion blows away anything by any grouping labeled DRATS or Supremes IMHO...the pace of the instrumental tracks was much better, and the lack of loud overdone big time brass wasn't missed at all...Susayes 2 LP solos High Energy and Come Into My Life are wonderful...and IN THE NIGHT is one of my fav songs...I don't like her contributions to background vocals or lead vocals on the classics at all...just my opinion...for me, despite loving Scherrie, the FLO's were over once Jean left...

Perfect response gman. While I enjoy the latter two groupings on record after Jean left, I'd have to say the magic had faded. The group dissolved into a disco act and there was certainly no shortage of those in the 70s. While Susaye added a spark on the studio recordings, in the live act it quickly regressed into a fight for vocal dominance with some ear-splitting, over-the-top performances. The gay crowd embraced all lineups of the girls but I do recall the final shows, like Caesar's Palace and MSG where the general public was leaving. The group they paid money to see bore no resemblance to their image of The Supremes. However right or wrong that was, when the crowd turned violent at MSG it kinda summed up what the latter group was about. Showing up to an oldies show wearing disco garb and face paint was not what was advertised and was just another example of the bad management the trio had. It was over by 1974.

[gman]

that MSG show was promoted for weeks on NYC's powerful AM station WABC radio....they played Baby Love in the ad....they should have played Up The Ladder or Stoned Love...something not very closely associated with Diana Ross...obviously, she wasn't there....and its doubtful the majority of the crowd would have cared about Jean over Scherrie.... bringing a current disco club set list / Vegas act to a oldies show was a big no no....disco had true haters...and greasers were very dedicated to early RnR

[RanRan79]

As for someone saying she fits the part visually as a Supreme, I utterly disagree. Just watch the American bandstand performance of them performing Let my heart do the walking, no glam, no make up, no lashes [[which I’m sorry was and still is an iconic part of this group).

What makes you think she doesn't have on makeup? She looks gorgeous. This wasn't the 1960s anymore. Glam had evolved. The only critique I have is Susaye looks a bit awkward dancing, but she wasn't the first Supreme to sometimes have that problem [[Flo). Looks wise, Susaye very much fit the part. Truth is, Mary never would have hired her if she didn't.

[RanRan79]

It’s interesting that we use the term commercial voice when were referring to the girls when you never heard that term outside Motown or being used to other Motown ladies. The Supremes from 73 on were definitely not the same as previous lineups. Officially Mary was in charge and doing half of the lead duties while Scherrie came aboard to handle the rest. I do think susaye with the right material could easily found her spot as we saw but needed to work on the live performances.

Commercial-making or intended to make a profit.
"commercial products"


Commercial-having profit rather than artistic or other value as a primary aim.
"their work is too commercial"


I had to look up the definition to better try to understand why some Supremes fans seem to use the term so often in relation to this group. A term, as you point out, that just doesn't seem to come up in other music circles, so far as I've been able to tell. Having looked it up, I understand a little better the points being made from a marketing standpoint. Take Diana Ross for instance. Gordy's idea to market the Supremes as this bridge between pop and R&B, young and old, singles and supper clubs, she does have a voice that would seem to be the most obvious choice to market this way. Where as, for instance, if the Supremes had signed to Stax, and the point was to market them as a more gutsy glam soul group, Florence would have been the more likely choice as her voice would seem to fit that market more. So yeah, from a marketing standpoint, I get it. However, ruling out Flo or Mary's abilities to do it in the first scenario, or Diana's in the second, shouldn't be a given.

The problem I have is that for a conversation about the 70s Supremes, the marketing of the 60s Supremes seems outdated and out of place. When it comes to pop music, as far as I can tell, anything goes. There's no one type of voice that guarantees success or failure. Turn on the radio at any given time from the 1990s and backwards [[to me, so many of the newer acts try desperately to sound like the others, with no desire to set themselves apart), and there was a variety of voices and sounds at play. Record companies, including Motown, had a smorgasbord of different vocalist sounds on the roster. All a hit record needed was all the right ingredients to come together and move the mass public at the same time.

[mwmr]

Christ NO!

[gman]

Cindy returning, in the eyes of long term fans gave the group back some hope of losing the publics unstable line up "employment agency" image her departing / replacement seemed to stir up...The Mary Scherrie Cindy blend was pleasant and the look was great. Susaye's lead on High Energy was great and refreshing...her IGLMHDTW work wasn't overuse or penetrating in its original LP mix....some of
Susaye's contributions to the last LP. could have worked having Cindy stayed...[[Sweet Dream Machine) seems to me where she was present her voice/pitch just cut too much through everything when singing harmony... the ad libs seemed to work on Walking and Driving Wheel...but distracting on Let Yourself Go...and the arrangement for We Should Be Closer Together worked very nicely...

[sup_fan]

What makes you think she doesn't have on makeup? She looks gorgeous. This wasn't the 1960s anymore. Glam had evolved. The only critique I have is Susaye looks a bit awkward dancing, but she wasn't the first Supreme to sometimes have that problem [[Flo). Looks wise, Susaye very much fit the part. Truth is, Mary never would have hired her if she didn't.

i've noticed some of that awkwardness with her movements. i think part of it was inheriting Cindy's gowns and being swamped in them. some of the outfit made S and S look about 4 inches tall and Mary like some amazon. there were certainly looks that would have flattered the full lineup better than some of the outfits mary picked.

[sup_fan]

Cindy returning, in the eyes of long term fans gave the group back some hope of losing the publics unstable line up "employment agency" image her departing / replacement seemed to stir up...The Mary Scherrie Cindy blend was pleasant and the look was great. Susaye's lead on High Energy was great and refreshing...her IGLMHDTW work wasn't overuse or penetrating in its original LP mix....some of
Susaye's contributions to the last LP. could have worked having Cindy stayed...[[Sweet Dream Machine) seems to me where she was present her voice/pitch just cut too much through everything when singing harmony... the ad libs seemed to work on Walking and Driving Wheel...but distracting on Let Yourself Go...and the arrangement for We Should Be Closer Together worked very nicely...

you can tell the Hollands worked to pick what/when/where the ad libs would used in the studio. LYG has a fair amount of them but mostly limited until the ending, when you have the girls chiming in but yet never competing. for Wheel, they mostly used Susaye ad libs outside of Scherrie's. for I Don't Wanna Be Tied Down, there's actually a lot of ad libs but they're buried in the mix. if you listen closely, you can hear the girls but i guess they didn't want EVERY song to have all of these. ad some variety

if the girls had a strong director and manager there might have been some push back on the girls to reign things in a bit during the shows. or maybe sort of "assign" spots for each girl. the girl can have some freedom to do whatever they want in that spot, but it would at least help keep it in control a bit

but that's a very VERY challenging situation. look at how Jean took liberties with melody throughout all of their live performances. her performance of SL on the Japan album frankly ruins the song for me. she's abandoned the melody so much that it's essentially nonexistent.

[daviddh]

Scherrie should have been.
The girl with a great voice

[jim aka jtigre99]

I just posed this question since many on this forum stated they stopped listening when Jean left and they missed a high, distinctive voice as lead singer. Susaye did have a high and distinctive voice so I raised the questions to get opinions. I loved Jean's voice and loved hearing Mary grow and share leads. But by 1973, the songs didn't carry the same punch and they seemed adrift. Jean's voice was even a bit shrill on Jimmy Webb.
I was beyond thrilled with Scherrie, she provided a voice and energy that seemed to revitalize the group and she was such a beauty. I loved Mary sharing more leads. I loved the harmony with Cindy back in the group-their vocals really sparkled. When Susaye came in she did provide her unique sound and the Hollands were brilliant where they added her ad libs into the songs just like how they had done with Mary and Scherrie on their shared lead on You're What's Missing in My Life.
I think had Motown really been behind them like in the 60's and partnered with the Hollands, with Scherrie as lead they would have been a major factor once again. I just wanted to see what the opinions were from the many who I see that they didn't follow past 1972 were.

[RanRan79]

I just posed this question since many on this forum stated they stopped listening when Jean left and they missed a high, distinctive voice as lead singer. Susaye did have a high and distinctive voice so I raised the questions to get opinions. I loved Jean's voice and loved hearing Mary grow and share leads. But by 1973, the songs didn't carry the same punch and they seemed adrift. Jean's voice was even a bit shrill on Jimmy Webb.
I was beyond thrilled with Scherrie, she provided a voice and energy that seemed to revitalize the group and she was such a beauty. I loved Mary sharing more leads. I loved the harmony with Cindy back in the group-their vocals really sparkled. When Susaye came in she did provide her unique sound and the Hollands were brilliant where they added her ad libs into the songs just like how they had done with Mary and Scherrie on their shared lead on You're What's Missing in My Life.
I think had Motown really been behind them like in the 60's and partnered with the Hollands, with Scherrie as lead they would have been a major factor once again. I just wanted to see what the opinions were from the many who I see that they didn't follow past 1972 were.

Scherrie should have been a big star. I think it's possible that her voice just didn't compute with the public's idea of the Supremes. I've said that many times. However, I've also said that with the right song, it might not have been an issue. The Scherrie years singles are pretty much "The Supremes Disco", which really didn't fit the public's idea of The Supremes. The songs that seem more radio friendly, like "Color My World", "Can't Stop a Girl", "Teardrops" were passed over. I think any of those three songs had hit potential.

But there is no denying, as far as I'm concerned, that Scherrie is one of the biggest reasons to enjoy the latter Supremes' studio work. She was a killer vocalist. I definitely prefer the Jean years, and the Flo years, above all others, but Scherrie is one of the best things to happen to the Supremes, IMO, if only for someone like me- who wasn't born during that time- to enjoy the music after the fact, without the expectations and disappointments that came with the fandom who were around during that time.

[Ollie9]

As with Mary, Susaye’s voice worked well in the context of a group but not as an appointed lead singer. Scherrie had a more powerful, commercial sound though as Ran points out, not the type of voice the public associated with the Supremes.
I think Cindy was underused to the point of it being ridiculous. She seemed to suffer for having such an easy going, laid back personality.

[captainjames]

Scherrie was the new voice of the Supremes that we needed more of. Susaye needed to be right there under Mary and Scherrie but not always as a lead. The Supremes were on spot with at least two leads at time that ended too soon. Scherrie was a powerhouse singer and it was just too little, too late for us to grasp at that time.

[BayouMotownMan]

I agree with all the perspectives here.

I think the main thing hurting the latter day grouping of Supremes was their stage presentation. Scherrie was a belter. Not long ago I was listening to a concert tape, not the best quality, that a fan made of MSC at the Shubert in LA I think it was, late 74 or early 75. Scherrie is everywhere, belting out one song after another. She was awesome, the fan base loved her for bringing the Supremes, along with Susaye, into the current fold of high powered singers which became more in demand as the 70s wore on.

To the general public however, which is the larger group, the acceptance was low. The Supremes were just not known for this kind of histrionic singing. When Susaye joined the situation got worse so far as the GP was concerned. This is the reason people were walking out on the group in Vegas and MSG, they just weren't accustomed to hearing the hit records sung in such a fashion.

For Labelle it was fine. For the Supremes it was not. Go figure.

[blackguy69]

The Shubert concert was September 1975 before the South African tour. I prefer the MSC grouping. They were a great blend and now overpowering.

I agree with all the perspectives here.

I think the main thing hurting the latter day grouping of Supremes was their stage presentation. Scherrie was a belter. Not long ago I was listening to a concert tape, not the best quality, that a fan made of MSC at the Shubert in LA I think it was, late 74 or early 75. Scherrie is everywhere, belting out one song after another. She was awesome, the fan base loved her for bringing the Supremes, along with Susaye, into the current fold of high powered singers which became more in demand as the 70s wore on.

To the general public however, which is the larger group, the acceptance was low. The Supremes were just not known for this kind of histrionic singing. When Susaye joined the situation got worse so far as the GP was concerned. This is the reason people were walking out on the group in Vegas and MSG, they just weren't accustomed to hearing the hit records sung in such a fashion.

For Labelle it was fine. For the Supremes it was not. Go figure.

[jobeterob]

All of these posts have good points.

Even with new members, there was a general feeling the group was in a downward spiral; it was true of most Motown groups although others had a bit of a resurgence while the Supremes never really did.

There were lots of factors at play - they were yesterday's top female group; sounds changed; the stage show wasn't great; the group was a revolving door and while that might be ok for a 5 member group without a really identifiable lead singer, it didn't work with the Supremes; they also lost their identifiable sound after Jean left; they were disagreeing with each other too much; when they couldn't get along themselves, it was hard to get support from Motown when they didn't know what they were doing themselves.

A change to Susaye as lead singer wouldn't have done it; it probably would have made things worse.