The Supremes 8 Days A Week

[floyjoy678]

I'm sure everyone has seen this clip but what the hell I'm in the mood to discuss it.

I really like the split leads and wish they had recorded it in the studio.

I do like Flo's verse and feel like she gives the song a country twang. Mary sounds very smooth on her verse and of course Diana brings the pop element into the song. Anyone else catch her saying "girl" on the last verse instead of "boy"? Lol guess she was used to the Beatles version.

I also notice Mary doesn't look too thrilled. In fact the other songs they do on this show, she doesn't look thrilled. She must have been having a bad day.

[RanRan79]

I just knew at some point this song would show up as a Liverpool outtake. I hadn't realized that the original wasn't released until shortly before this performance, and of course after the Liverpool album had been released.

I personally don't care for this performance. It's great to see for the optics of the three lead singers, but none of them sound particularly fit for the song. The one I would have loved to see and hear them tackle live was House of the Rising Sun.

Mary does indeed look like she isn't her usual bubbly self.

Flo was thick, wasn't she?

[sup_fan]

it's a fun performance. i wish the audio was a bit better, that you could hear each girl stronger. but hey - it is what it is. always happy to see and hear more of these as they're unearthed.

I wonder if kids watching grasped the Brit outfits? did they do any other Beatles on tv? i know they were part of the Hullabaloo group singing I Feel Fine. and then on Shindig they did I Feel Fine. again in Brit outfits. and flo just about takes out the microphone lol

were the 2 Shindig songs on the same show? in one they're in the pants and the other is skirt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nolBQ1E3m7A


also only You Can't Do That is on the Liverpool album

[reese]

it's a fun performance. i wish the audio was a bit better, that you could hear each girl stronger. but hey - it is what it is. always happy to see and hear more of these as they're unearthed.

I wonder if kids watching grasped the Brit outfits? did they do any other Beatles on tv? i know they were part of the Hullabaloo group singing I Feel Fine. and then on Shindig they did I Feel Fine. again in Brit outfits. and flo just about takes out the microphone lol

were the 2 Shindig songs on the same show? in one they're in the pants and the other is skirt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nolBQ1E3m7A


also only You Can't Do That is on the Liverpool album

They did 8 DAYS A WEEK, YOU CAN'T DO THAT, and STOP! on the same Shindig! episode.

Not really a fan of this 8 DAYS A WEEK performance. I much prefer their quick I FEEL FINE on Hullabaloo.

[Boogiedown]

this is fantastic! Smiling the whole time watching it.

Really exhibits the distinctness of each of their voices, all of which are great.
Mary seems a bit nervous [or sleepy?] , her looks remind me of Teddy Pendergrass [in a good way] and Flo, The Beatles song she looks like she should be singing is LUCY IN THE SKY WITH DIAMONDS ....

at 1:59 I swear Diana sings, "ohhh I need your love girl ".....[??]

Ross voice is perfect for this, adds a sentiment/sweetness not heard in the Beatles version , imo.

added :eye poppin' spotted at 1:08

[jim aka jtigre99]

I really liked the fact that Flo and Mary both had a lead line. Both did great on their line and I enjoyed Mary's immensely. I did notice that Mary did not seem very happy which was quite out of character for her on television-she was usually poised, polished and happy. I wondered if it was because she wasn't in the center as she usually was. I also wondered why the camera did not focus on Flo and Mary when they sang their lead lines. I remember reading a book where it was the CW&P LP and Diana was nonplussed over them singing lead lines and they heard her. Perhaps, there was something that she threw a fit over their lines and demanded they didn't get any closeups. Only trying to guess here, but it could be a possibility.

[Spreadinglove21]

Maybe because I'm used to the Beatles version, but to me only Mary with her deeper voice sounds good on this. Diana's voice is too thin and becomes monotonous and Flo sounds scratchy when she sings her lead lines.

[floyjoy678]

I really liked the fact that Flo and Mary both had a lead line. Both did great on their line and I enjoyed Mary's immensely. I did notice that Mary did not seem very happy which was quite out of character for her on television-she was usually poised, polished and happy. I wondered if it was because she wasn't in the center as she usually was. I also wondered why the camera did not focus on Flo and Mary when they sang their lead lines. I remember reading a book where it was the CW&P LP and Diana was nonplussed over them singing lead lines and they heard her. Perhaps, there was something that she threw a fit over their lines and demanded they didn't get any closeups. Only trying to guess here, but it could be a possibility.

In The Lost Supreme, Florence said her and Mary overheard Diana complaining through the headphones about them getting lines for "Makes No Difference Now".

I think had the group continued on this path of Mary and Florence being featured on TV spots and album cuts like this, they would have been very happy.

[daviddh]

I like this performance, they sound great here

[RanRan79]

Perhaps, there was something that she threw a fit over their lines and demanded they didn't get any closeups. Only trying to guess here, but it could be a possibility.

Come on now. No, it wasn't a possibility. Diana Ross had no control over where Shindig focused their cameras, especially at this point in their career. She would have been laughed off the show by production.

If you notice, Diana only gets a closeup when she originally sings the lead. Afterwards it's always group shots, even when she resumes the lead. What is possible is that the cameraman planned to go "close up on lead during verses, group shots during chorus" but perhaps realized this wasn't a one lead song and so the rest of the performance is focused entirely on the group, since it's a group lead.

[RanRan79]

In The Lost Supreme, Florence said her and Mary overheard Diana complaining through the headphones about them getting lines for "Makes No Difference Now".

I think had the group continued on this path of Mary and Florence being featured on TV spots and album cuts like this, they would have been very happy.

CHMR also makes mention of this story. JRT frames it as when the ladies originally started recording country tracks, which was early 1963. However, Mary makes mention that it wasn't until sometime in 1964 that Berry made it official regarding Diana being lead singer. If Flo's story is accurate, it makes sense that this anecdote took place during the re-recording of the C&W songs in late 1964, after Gordy made his announcement. The story does make Diana look like a spotlight hog.

[gman]

this is my fav TV performance of the original trio....no one over sings or tries to be louder.....I do notice Mary seems to be looking down and watching the edge of the stage....maybe she felt insecure on the platform? YOU CAN'T DO THAT is a amazing clip too....

[marybrewster]

Was this the first televised performance where Flo and Mary had individual lead lines?

[sup_fan]

Was this the first televised performance where Flo and Mary had individual lead lines?

i think it's not only the first but one of the FEW times. when they did Fancy Passes on Sammy, Flo and Mary have their little callout lines. and Flo's ad libs on Sullivan doing You're Nobody.

i haven't rewatched all of the Top Hits segments on Hullabaloo, there might be a time or two where the girls trade lines. but don't recall

[thanxal]

i think it's not only the first but one of the FEW times. when they did Fancy Passes on Sammy, Flo and Mary have their little callout lines. and Flo's ad libs on Sullivan doing You're Nobody.

i haven't rewatched all of the Top Hits segments on Hullabaloo, there might be a time or two where the girls trade lines. but don't recall

There is this:
I believe on the same show they sing the Andrews Sisters medley [[while the Sisters sang the Supremes). Flo is so dominant on the first part of Bei Mir Bist Du Schön that Diana has to jump in front of her. Not sure if this is exactly an individual lead situation but one where you can really hear Flo and Mary [[mostly Flo). And the Sisters had just about as much drama as the Supremes over their lead singer vs. "backup" singers.

[blackguy69]

I believe this performance is the first time. The others performances quoted happened later in 65 or 66

[RanRan79]

I believe this performance is the first time. The others performances quoted happened later in 65 or 66

Don't forget the 1964 performance on TV- can't recall if it was a US show or UK show- where they sing "Lovelight" and "Right Way" and something else, [["Run" or "Where Did Our Love Go"?) can't remember what song it was. Anyway, on "Right Way" Flo does her ad libs at the beginning and ending of the song.

[RanRan79]

There is this:
I believe on the same show they sing the Andrews Sisters medley [[while the Sisters sang the Supremes). Flo is so dominant on the first part of Bei Mir Bist Du Schön that Diana has to jump in front of her. Not sure if this is exactly an individual lead situation but one where you can really hear Flo and Mary [[mostly Flo). And the Sisters had just about as much drama as the Supremes over their lead singer vs. "backup" singers.

This is one of my favorite performances of the ladies. If not for Diana's little "solos", this really does sound like a Flo led medley and she sounds great. They just had to give Diana something extra to do. I think Mary could have done her parts. And this is one of the examples I was talking about in another thread about how sometimes Diana could be so extra that it's not surprising why some people were never a fan. She was naturally eye catching and charismatic. She didn't need to do all that eye popping and face making. I'll refrain from saying what I was about to say.

[thanxal]

I'll refrain from saying what I was about to say.

No! Please don’t refrain. I’m in bed sick and NEED some drama! [Or is it Dramamine?]
edit: it is those first few bars on BMBDS that proves to me conclusively that FLO really could sing. She really knocked it out of the park.

[sup_fan]

This is one of my favorite performances of the ladies. If not for Diana's little "solos", this really does sound like a Flo led medley and she sounds great. They just had to give Diana something extra to do. I think Mary could have done her parts. And this is one of the examples I was talking about in another thread about how sometimes Diana could be so extra that it's not surprising why some people were never a fan. She was naturally eye catching and charismatic. She didn't need to do all that eye popping and face making. I'll refrain from saying what I was about to say.

yeah this is another great clip. and it is hard to decern who is singing the lead/melody. it's like Gordy had to pick - have diana right next to Sammie or have her dead center infront of the mic.

[RanRan79]

No! Please don’t refrain.

Nah. While undoubtedly many readers would have understood the point I was going to make between Diana and the comparison I'm refraining from making, I realized that for some- perhaps just a few- it might have been much too inflammatory and my point could be misconstrued in a way that would surely derail this thread and offend some people, which is not my intention at all. So sometimes it is best to catch these things before it even gets started.

it is those first few bars on BMBDS that proves to me conclusively that FLO really could sing. She really knocked it out of the park.

What! This is the proof you needed? Not the way she ripped through "Good News"?

One of the things I appreciate about the original trio is how easily all three seemed capable of singing lead on a variety of things. Sure, each one had her lane where she may have been stronger than the other two, but they were all good at crossing boundaries. Flo's range was particularly strong. Compare what she's doing here, what she did with "People" and "Oh Holy Night", to what she did with "Good News", to what she did with her verse in "Makes No Difference Now". Her approach was different, but suited to the differences in songs and genre, and yet still somehow always "Flo".

I think it was Sup who posed the question of what if Flo and Mary were the same kind of person as Diana- willing to do any and everything to get to the top- would he have been more likely to invest in them as stars as much as he did Diana. I opine that he very well might have. The three of them had different skill sets, but together they were quite the combo. Gordy understood that pretty early on, but it was Diana who was willing to kill in order to go all the way, a mentality Gordy himself had, so he focused on her, sometimes at the expense of allowing Flo and Mary to not get the opportunity to advance vocally the way that Diana clearly did over the years. It sucks because Flo and Mary had all the star qualities too. But it can't be underrated that Diana's pliability as a pop singer seemed easy money compared to Flo and Mary too, so there is that.

I’m in bed sick and NEED some drama! [Or is it Dramamine?]

Okay, here goes...We know the name Diana Ross because she slept with the boss. Anywhere else she would have never gotten her foot in the door. Florence was the real talent in that group. She blows Diana out of the water with every note.

Now let's see if that brings the Drama-ettes out of the woodwork for a little action.

Get well Al!!

[RanRan79]

yeah this is another great clip. and it is hard to decern who is singing the lead/melody. it's like Gordy had to pick - have diana right next to Sammie or have her dead center infront of the mic.

I wonder how much control he would have over something like that? I would think the showrunner would decide staging and what not, but I guess that might not be entirely true.

Part of me wonders if Flo pulled a fast one, that Diana was supposed to be in the middle, but Flo seized the moment. When Diana takes the lead, the way she moves in front of the mic, and Flo and Mary back up, it's so awkward and clunky. Not smooth at all, which is certainly not how the Supremes would normally be described. Also Diana's constantly looking at Florence...Could it be that Diana is wanting to say "Heifer, you know I'm supposed to be where you are! When we get backstage..."

[Ollie9]

Nah. While undoubtedly many readers would have understood the point I was going to make between Diana and the comparison I'm refraining from making, I realized that for some- perhaps just a few- it might have been much too inflammatory and my point could be misconstrued in a way that would surely derail this thread and offend some people, which is not my intention at all. So sometimes it is best to catch these things before it even gets started.



What! This is the proof you needed? Not the way she ripped through "Good News"?

One of the things I appreciate about the original trio is how easily all three seemed capable of singing lead on a variety of things. Sure, each one had her lane where she may have been stronger than the other two, but they were all good at crossing boundaries. Flo's range was particularly strong. Compare what she's doing here, what she did with "People" and "Oh Holy Night", to what she did with "Good News", to what she did with her verse in "Makes No Difference Now". Her approach was different, but suited to the differences in songs and genre, and yet still somehow always "Flo".

I think it was Sup who posed the question of what if Flo and Mary were the same kind of person as Diana- willing to do any and everything to get to the top- would he have been more likely to invest in them as stars as much as he did Diana. I opine that he very well might have. The three of them had different skill sets, but together they were quite the combo. Gordy understood that pretty early on, but it was Diana who was willing to kill in order to go all the way, a mentality Gordy himself had, so he focused on her, sometimes at the expense of allowing Flo and Mary to not get the opportunity to advance vocally the way that Diana clearly did over the years. It sucks because Flo and Mary had all the star qualities too. But it can't be underrated that Diana's pliability as a pop singer seemed easy money compared to Flo and Mary too, so there is that.



Okay, here goes...We know the name Diana Ross because she slept with the boss. Anywhere else she would have never gotten her foot in the door. Florence was the real talent in that group. She blows Diana out of the water with every note.

Now let's see if that brings the Drama-ettes out of the woodwork for a little action.

Flo and Mary were great, but Diana always possessed that irresistible charisma that defines a superstar. Charisma aside, she was also blessed with that amazingly commercial voice that sounded like no other and separated the group from the pack.
I don’t think it would have mattered how equally ambitious Flo and Mary might have been, when it was the unique Ross voice that transformed those HDH songs into something special and proved the winning formula. At best they may have been given a couple more solos.
I agree that Flo is superb in this performance with the Andrew Sisters, being amusing to watch Diana trying to command attention. Mary just seems to melt into the background on this one.

[RanRan79]

Flo and Mary were great, but Diana always possessed that irresistible charisma that defines a superstar. Charisma aside, she was also blessed with that amazingly commercial voice that sounded like no other and separated the group from the pack.
I don’t think it would have mattered how equally ambitious Flo and Mary might have been, when it was the unique Ross voice that transformed those HDH songs into something special and proved the winning formula. At best they may have been given a couple more solos.
I agree that Flo is superb in this performance with the Andrew Sisters, being amusing to watch Diana trying to command attention. Mary just seems to melt into the background on this one.

There's that word again, "commercial".

Singles wise, I agree, Diana would probably always be the focus. But the interesting thing about the Supremes is that almost from the start of them becoming household names, what set them apart from the other female groups- probably the other groups period, male and female, of their peers- is that they weren't just single artists, they were all around entertainers, evidenced by how popular they were as a live act, both on TV and on stage. If Flo and Mary were simliarly goaled as Diana, I think the live act would have definitely featured them more prominently. And thus, when the group officially ended, I think the ladies would have been set up to do what the Beatles did, with all of them going on to their own successful solo careers.

[sup_fan]

I wonder how much control he would have over something like that? I would think the showrunner would decide staging and what not, but I guess that might not be entirely true.

Part of me wonders if Flo pulled a fast one, that Diana was supposed to be in the middle, but Flo seized the moment. When Diana takes the lead, the way she moves in front of the mic, and Flo and Mary back up, it's so awkward and clunky. Not smooth at all, which is certainly not how the Supremes would normally be described. Also Diana's constantly looking at Florence...Could it be that Diana is wanting to say "Heifer, you know I'm supposed to be where you are! When we get backstage..."

haha perhaps this was the tv show Tonita Turner was referring to where Flo raced to the mic and belted out the backgrounds lol

in regards to Berry and his giving directions, oh i think he absolutely could and would. now i realize this Sammy clip is from an earlier stage of their overall careers. but there are the stories from the photographer Harry Langdon and how Berry would not only be on set shouting, encouraging, disparaging, cajoling Diana into work but Berry would also sometimes take harry's camera and snap pics himself!!!

I don't think Berry would have been quite that bold in early 66. but he would have definitely worked with the management team on things. there's that scene in Dreamgirls during Heavy where Jamie Fox is in the control booth and instructing them as to which camera angle to go with, to zoom in, etc. and of course all of it to center it on Diana.

[sup_fan]

There's that word again, "commercial".

Singles wise, I agree, Diana would probably always be the focus. But the interesting thing about the Supremes is that almost from the start of them becoming household names, what set them apart from the other female groups- probably the other groups period, male and female, of their peers- is that they weren't just single artists, they were all around entertainers, evidenced by how popular they were as a live act, both on TV and on stage. If Flo and Mary were simliarly goaled as Diana, I think the live act would have definitely featured them more prominently. And thus, when the group officially ended, I think the ladies would have been set up to do what the Beatles did, with all of them going on to their own successful solo careers.

obviously we all know that Diana was a freak lol and i mean that in the kindest way possible. she had a drive and work ethic uncanny for most adults, much less a 16 year old. she was an anomaly in that sense, combined with an amazing performance persona. she was just one of those kids that relished being on stage and hearing applause. think of the young kids at the piano recital. they each play their corny little ditty but Diana would have been the one beaming with delight, taking extra and deeper bows. all to that applause.

still M and F had more charisma than any of the others at motown. men or women. it's just that Diana again was such a freak. But Berry, Gil, Cholly and others all have commented that all 3 were talented way beyond their years. that they were all so very very good. that all 3 really understood showmanship. they could just immediately drop into 3-part harmony, they could sell a song onstage better than anyone. it's just that Diana had that edge even further.

[reese]

haha perhaps this was the tv show Tonita Turner was referring to where Flo raced to the mic and belted out the backgrounds lol

in regards to Berry and his giving directions, oh i think he absolutely could and would. now i realize this Sammy clip is from an earlier stage of their overall careers. but there are the stories from the photographer Harry Langdon and how Berry would not only be on set shouting, encouraging, disparaging, cajoling Diana into work but Berry would also sometimes take harry's camera and snap pics himself!!!

I don't think Berry would have been quite that bold in early 66. but he would have definitely worked with the management team on things. there's that scene in Dreamgirls during Heavy where Jamie Fox is in the control booth and instructing them as to which camera angle to go with, to zoom in, etc. and of course all of it to center it on Diana.

Having worked in television for over 25 years, I can tell you that most of the camera shots are blocked out ahead of time. Now that doesn't mean that people won't improvise but it can also be a sure way to be pegged as unprofessional. Not to mention, it can throw everyone off.

That said, I would agree that it might have been a bit early at this point for Berry to be dictating camera shots, especially to Sammy Davis. They used this same staging when they did the Love medley on Dean Martin, left to right, Diana, Flo, Mary. Physically, it looks better, IMO.

BTW: I always wanted to see that TV appearance where Tony says the group emerged from behind Xmas presents and Flo rushed for Diana's mike because it would be the loudest. It's a funny image in retrospect. But again, it seems unlikely that Flo would mess up something that had already been blocked in rehearsal. I never heard of her taking her problems to the stage. And looking at the MY FAVORITE THINGS performance [which I assume Turner was referencing], you can see there were no mikes at all.

[sup_fan]

Having worked in television for over 25 years, I can tell you that most of the camera shots are blocked out ahead of time. Now that doesn't mean that people won't improvise but it can also be a sure way to be pegged as unprofessional. Not to mention, it can throw everyone off.

That said, I would agree that it might have been a bit early at this point for Berry to be dictating camera shots, especially to Sammy Davis. They used this same staging when they did the Love medley on Dean Martin, left to right, Diana, Flo, Mary. Physically, it looks better, IMO.

BTW: I always wanted to see that TV appearance where Tony says the group emerged from behind Xmas presents and Flo rushed for Diana's mike because it would be the loudest. It's a funny image in retrospect. But again, it seems unlikely that Flo would mess up something that had already been blocked in rehearsal. I never heard of her taking her problems to the stage. And looking at the MY FAVORITE THINGS performance [which I assume Turner was referencing], you can see there were no mikes at all.

oh i agree. it wouldn't have been during the final taping. if berry was in the control booth giving directions, it would have been during the rehearsals and staging.

you can see a little snippet of messed up staging during YCHL on Sullivan. at 0:49 Diana is getting into the first verse, starting to walk and singing, but she glances down to check and notices she's not exactly on her mark. there would have been some masking tape on the ground to note where she was to stop but she had gone past it. after glancing down she adjust slightly. because when they hit the beginning of the 2nd Chorus, the shot jumps to a group shot and Diana is to pivot to face the other camera and walk towards M and F. she needed to be on her mark [[and flo and mary on theirs) so that she would line up and be visible between the two of them.

my assumption [[and it's all an assumption) is that early the staging work, berry would have issued directives to focus more on Diana or not do as many group shots. again all speculation. some of the snarkier books have made comments like this too - that crew and camera men had confided to Flo that the motown staff would direct them to focus mostly on diana or make it a group shot.

[marybrewster]

Woof. That Andrews Sisters/Supremes medley is rough. The annunciation by Patty is over the top [[but typical for their sound); almost as over the top as Diana desperately trying to get that lead mic spot, lol.

[TheMotownManiac]

I'm sure everyone has seen this clip but what the hell I'm in the mood to discuss it.

I really like the split leads and wish they had recorded it in the studio.

I do like Flo's verse and feel like she gives the song a country twang. Mary sounds very smooth on her verse and of course Diana brings the pop element into the song. Anyone else catch her saying "girl" on the last verse instead of "boy"? Lol guess she was used to the Beatles version.

I also notice Mary doesn't look too thrilled. In fact the other songs they do on this show, she doesn't look thrilled. She must have been having a bad day.

I love this clip for the choreography, the costumes, and the shared leads. I don’t care for Mary on it vocally, I like Flo and I think diana is not putting enough life into it, plus she’s borderline flat several times. I think the pace needed to be picked up a little bit.

Mary looks to me like she doesn’t feel well and I’m certain that she was uncertain about the choreography because she keeps looking at Diana and checking to see what she’s doing. I don’t believe that any of the Supremes would bring their drama onto the stage in front of a television camera because they run happy about anything. These girls were already being pulled in every direction to do press, gigs, and promotion. Mary might just be exhausted, my first thought was maybe she has a hangover. That’s how I looked when I used to enjoy a Roy Roy or two.

[TheMotownManiac]

I really liked the fact that Flo and Mary both had a lead line. Both did great on their line and I enjoyed Mary's immensely. I did notice that Mary did not seem very happy which was quite out of character for her on television-she was usually poised, polished and happy. I wondered if it was because she wasn't in the center as she usually was. I also wondered why the camera did not focus on Flo and Mary when they sang their lead lines. I remember reading a book where it was the CW&P LP and Diana was nonplussed over them singing lead lines and they heard her. Perhaps, there was something that she threw a fit over their lines and demanded they didn't get any closeups. Only trying to guess here, but it could be a possibility.

while I believe it’s possible, that diana would be unhappy, sharing leads later, on in the groups history, I think it’s quite unlikely. It occurred during country, western and pop recordings as she had not been selected as the sole lead singer, but definitely a possibility. In either case, there is no way in hell bad the lead singer of a fledgling group that no one had ever heard of a few months ago, was going to demand anything of a Director on a television show. I don’t think she ever had the clout to make those kinds of demands on a TV show when she was with the group. That would’ve been handled by their manager or Barry, but it would not be a demand because ultimately, it’s the directors job to do what’s best for the show, not the ego of a 20 year old nobody. There’s a big difference between demanding flowers in your dressing room, and telling professional people how to do their job.

[TheMotownManiac]

I wonder how much control he would have over something like that? I would think the showrunner would decide staging and what not, but I guess that might not be entirely true.

Part of me wonders if Flo pulled a fast one, that Diana was supposed to be in the middle, but Flo seized the moment. When Diana takes the lead, the way she moves in front of the mic, and Flo and Mary back up, it's so awkward and clunky. Not smooth at all, which is certainly not how the Supremes would normally be described. Also Diana's constantly looking at Florence...Could it be that Diana is wanting to say "Heifer, you know I'm supposed to be where you are! When we get backstage..."

Sammy and Berry, Gordy Junior, got along very well, so whatever agenda they wanted to push forward, they probably would’ve agreed on. I don’t think Florence would’ve pulled a fast one on television, she knew the difference between right and wrong, and by that point her relationship with Barry was starting to stretch, and I don’t think she would have risked his wrath to do something as unprofessional as that, it’s her voice that makes that medley no matter. Where is she standing.

[Ollie9]

There's that word again, "commercial".

Singles wise, I agree, Diana would probably always be the focus. But the interesting thing about the Supremes is that almost from the start of them becoming household names, what set them apart from the other female groups- probably the other groups period, male and female, of their peers- is that they weren't just single artists, they were all around entertainers, evidenced by how popular they were as a live act, both on TV and on stage. If Flo and Mary were simliarly goaled as Diana, I think the live act would have definitely featured them more prominently. And thus, when the group officially ended, I think the ladies would have been set up to do what the Beatles did, with all of them going on to their own successful solo careers.

Your assuming of course that Flo and Mary were not as career orientated as Diana. Perhaps they tired of being told no, resigning themselves to their fate.

[RanRan79]

Your assuming of course that Flo and Mary were not as career orientated as Diana. Perhaps they tired of being told no, resigning themselves to their fate.

Not at all. That's why I used terms like "same kind of person" and "similarly goaled" because you can be equally as ambitious as the next person, but your ambitions, your goals, can be quite different than the other person. Diana wanted to be queen of the world, if you will. She definitely craved being the center of attention, which is ultimately what drove her ambition as an entertainer, and she was willing to do almost anything to be the center of attention. I don't think Flo and Mary needed attention quite so badly. Surely they loved it. They both certainly loved to entertain. But I also think they both were okay taking a back seat to someone else shining for a little while. I don't think Diana was really ever okay with that until she was much older.

So for Diana, when the Supremes finally made it, she seems to have focused all of her attention on going as far as she possibly could as an entertainer. Meanwhile, Mary was trying to balance a career and being belle of the ball, having fun, enjoying herself, living life to the fullest. And Florence was trying to balance career and family. Diana made a pit stop here and there with her love life, but all evidence seems to point to her eating and sleeping her career.

I don't think Diana was any more ambitious than Florence or Mary, she just had a different way of going about it. She had a linear focus on her career while Flo and Mary had priorities in addition to their career. Ultimately I believe the goal of all three women was to have long and successful careers in the music industry, together or apart. I think Flo was quoted once saying that they should have all been able to walk away from the group set up for solo careers, so that would suggest it was something on all of their to-do lists, to have careers separate from one another.

The Supremes lasted as long as it did during those early no hit years because Flo and Mary were as ambitious as Diana. Had Diana been saddled with two people who weren't as hell bent on making it as she was, the group would have died quickly without hits.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think there was quite a bit of psychology to the original Supremes dynamic. In many ways, all three personalities were needed in order for the group to succeed. Berry saw in Diana the drive and talent to take Motown to a more prominent place in the entertainment world but she did need the Supremes in order to fulfill that destiny. BTW, I am only guessing from my observations here.

From what I understand Diana was always aggressive and competitive no matter what she was doing. I think her father didn't pay as much attention to her accomplishments as he did his other daughter [[I think Barbara) so that only helped to fuel her determination to succeed. She certainly had a unique voice and talent but the framework of the Supremes helped her to shine.
Florence came from a large family. Before she was assaulted, she was very much someone who spoke her mind and had an air about her. After her assault, she became distrustful of authority and people she thought she could trust. She probably saw Diana's ambitions as something to distrust because it focused on Diana and not the group. So, Flo must have spoke out about it and it didn't endear her to Motown, Berry and Diana. Had they featured her in a lead spot more in concerts or records, that might have eased her distrust and also helped to show that each Supreme was talented.
Mary's story shows she was always ambitious but she was always focused on the group. Mary's voice was important to bringing warmth to the group sound. Having been with her Aunt until her Mother reclaimed her probably gave her a feeling of abandonment so she saw the group as a solid place and one that she hoped would continue forever. Mary certainly had talent, her vocals in the background surely did help Where Did Our Love Go achieve a great sound along with Diana's lead. Had Mary not been ambitious, she wouldn't have still been plugging away at it until she passed.

I think the general public only saw Diana because she was a deserved success and since she was singled out and pushed, people might have it in the back of their minds-well, she must be the only talented one since she was chosen. I am sure the record industry probably had ideas in that way, too.
I do think a bit more sharing like in 8 days a week, might have helped group unity and showed the talents of all three just a little more. Just IMHO.

[Ollie9]

Keeping in mind it was Diana’s voice that sold those songs, i do wonder if the story of the Supremes would have proved much different had it been Diana with two other women.
Allowing for Flo’s mental health problems, i somehow doubt it.

[RanRan79]

I think the general public only saw Diana because she was a deserved success and since she was singled out and pushed, people might have it in the back of their minds-well, she must be the only talented one since she was chosen. I am sure the record industry probably had ideas in that way, too.
I do think a bit more sharing like in 8 days a week, might have helped group unity and showed the talents of all three just a little more. Just IMHO.

Gordy wanted things done his way and he didn't care about the fallout. His focus eventually became "how to make Diana Ross a single star", and he expected everybody- Diana included- to get behind it and do what was necessary to achieve the goal. It's weird to me that he didn't realize that he could accomplish that goal without diminishing the roles of Florence and Mary. The live act really should have been centered around giving each lady a good amount of time to shine. No doubt in my mind that this would have gone a long way into easing tensions. It was called the Supremes, and it should have operated as such throughout.

Flo's drinking had a trigger. The rape was most likely a psychological component, but the rape had occurred in 1960. By all accounts, Florence didn't develop a drinking problem until 1966. I'm betting that if she had gotten help for the drinking, she would have discovered via therapy that the drinking was a direct result of losing control within the group. Her dream was turning into a springboard for someone else's dream. That has to be crushing. So not only was she self medicating to cope, but in her mind drinking was something she could control, while the group and all things group related, she could not.

But if Gordy had sat down with the ladies and laid out his plans, even if it was "Okay, I want to focus on setting Diane up for a solo career, and then next I want to do the same for Florence, and then Mary. What do you girls think about that and what ideas do you have?", the group might still feel like they were in this thing together. Gordy just didn't know how to handle this situation. In his mind he was not going to be dictated to by these women. He had grown up having his sisters dictate to him and he hated it. He was not about to give Flo and Mary that power.

[Ollie9]

Gordy wanted things done his way and he didn't care about the fallout. His focus eventually became "how to make Diana Ross a single star", and he expected everybody- Diana included- to get behind it and do what was necessary to achieve the goal. It's weird to me that he didn't realize that he could accomplish that goal without diminishing the roles of Florence and Mary. The live act really should have been centered around giving each lady a good amount of time to shine. No doubt in my mind that this would have gone a long way into easing tensions. It was called the Supremes, and it should have operated as such throughout.

Flo's drinking had a trigger. The rape was most likely a psychological component, but the rape had occurred in 1960. By all accounts, Florence didn't develop a drinking problem until 1966. I'm betting that if she had gotten help for the drinking, she would have discovered via therapy that the drinking was a direct result of losing control within the group. Her dream was turning into a springboard for someone else's dream. That has to be crushing. So not only was she self medicating to cope, but in her mind drinking was something she could control, while the group and all things group related, she could not.

But if Gordy had sat down with the ladies and laid out his plans, even if it was "Okay, I want to focus on setting Diane up for a solo career, and then next I want to do the same for Florence, and then Mary. What do you girls think about that and what ideas do you have?", the group might still feel like they were in this thing together. Gordy just didn't know how to handle this situation. In his mind he was not going to be dictated to by these women. He had grown up having his sisters dictate to him and he hated it. He was not about to give Flo and Mary that power.

Nice sentiments Ran, but in the tough world of showbiz where money and profit are a priority not very likely. You either ride the wave or go under.

[RanRan79]

Keeping in mind it was Diana’s voice that sold those songs, i do wonder if the story of the Supremes would have proved much different had it been Diana with two other women.
Allowing for Flo’s mental health problems, i somehow doubt it.

The Supremes aren't THE SUPREMES with Diana Ross, Roz and Betty from the Vandellas. Sorry, never will buy that.

The Supremes' story would surely be different because the characters would be different. It's like our own life stories: how different would our lives be today if we had different parents, different siblings, went to different schools, gone into a different career, etc. Your story would not be the same just because you're still you.

What if Diana had been in a group with two women she had no vocal chemistry with? What if she had been in a group with a member who was like "Hell no we aint auditioning for Motown"? What if the other two Supremes were ugly and matronly? What if one of them was Barbara, with her rather flat tone? What if one or both responded to Diana's bratty behavior with ass whoopings?

The Supremes aint the Supremes without Florence and Mary, nor without Diana, and I don't think the group would have hit the heights it hit with any other combination supporting Diana because it was the charisma of all three that helped propel the group forward. It wasn't just the singles that set the world on fire, it was the visual as well.

[RanRan79]

Nice sentiments Ran, but in the tough world of showbiz where money and profit are a priority not very likely. You either ride the wave or go under.

Not every successful music business mogul was cruel and thoughtless. And there were more than a few who understood how to manage personalities and how to de-escalate trouble. Gordy wasn't one of them. He could have been, he chose not to. My scenario is one where he realized the boat doesn't rock if you do what you can to keep it from rocking.

[sup_fan]

The Supremes aren't THE SUPREMES with Diana Ross, Roz and Betty from the Vandellas. Sorry, never will buy that.

The Supremes' story would surely be different because the characters would be different. It's like our own life stories: how different would our lives be today if we had different parents, different siblings, went to different schools, gone into a different career, etc. Your story would not be the same just because you're still you.

What if Diana had been in a group with two women she had no vocal chemistry with? What if she had been in a group with a member who was like "Hell no we aint auditioning for Motown"? What if the other two Supremes were ugly and matronly? What if one of them was Barbara, with her rather flat tone? What if one or both responded to Diana's bratty behavior with ass whoopings?

The Supremes aint the Supremes without Florence and Mary, nor without Diana, and I don't think the group would have hit the heights it hit with any other combination supporting Diana because it was the charisma of all three that helped propel the group forward. It wasn't just the singles that set the world on fire, it was the visual as well.

i agree. it's easy to look back and just see DIANA ROSS because of her later huge success. I'm not hugely familiar with line performances by MRATV, the Marvelettes, etc. i've seen the handful of clips that pop up occasionally online. Like MRATV on Sullivan - i find Martha to be only somewhat engaging. or a clip of the Velvelettes and Cal looks like she's half asleep. Of course anyone can have a bad/off day - as many have pointed out this 8 Days A Week clip doesn't appear to be Mary in top form.

but in general, M and F had a level of showmanship and talent that was unusual for girls their age. they're really the only two that come close to matching Diana's level. so when you get all three of them on stage, the act is amazing. this isn't to say that other groups were bad. it's just that DMF were SO GOOD.

as for pairing Diana with others, i think that may or may not have worked as well. M and F were very, very talented. Diana was, frankly, a bit unusual. her nasal voice, her eye popping, she over exuberance. had Diana been a solo star, i think she might have been a bit much to handle. if Diana had been paired with two wallflowers, again probably too much to handle.

the Sups made it big first and foremost with the youngsters of America. the songs were infectious but they personalities shown through. young girls could identify with one of them because the young girl was able to see some of D or M or F's personality. the girls could relate because there was something to relate to. many other young performers are nice but sort of blank. Once the Sups started making is massively huge, Gordy started to release the specialty albums, get them to perform You're Nobody and People and Anyone with a heart, etc. to broaden their appeal. and we all know the history - the girls finally make it big at the Copa and all.

but it all started with 3 talented and engaging people. not one. that was the key to the beginning of their success

[marybrewster]

The Supremes aren't THE SUPREMES with Diana Ross, Roz and Betty from the Vandellas. Sorry, never will buy that.

The Supremes' story would surely be different because the characters would be different. It's like our own life stories: how different would our lives be today if we had different parents, different siblings, went to different schools, gone into a different career, etc. Your story would not be the same just because you're still you.

What if Diana had been in a group with two women she had no vocal chemistry with? What if she had been in a group with a member who was like "Hell no we aint auditioning for Motown"? What if the other two Supremes were ugly and matronly? What if one of them was Barbara, with her rather flat tone? What if one or both responded to Diana's bratty behavior with ass whoopings?

The Supremes aint the Supremes without Florence and Mary, nor without Diana, and I don't think the group would have hit the heights it hit with any other combination supporting Diana because it was the charisma of all three that helped propel the group forward. It wasn't just the singles that set the world on fire, it was the visual as well.

Exactly. While Roz and Betty [[and Net) were no doubt talented, they just didn't have the sparkle of Mary and Flo. The Vandellas often looked awkward. It wasn't until the lineup of Lois and Sandy that things really got cooking. But by then, Martha was a mess. One more point, Martha has always made it clear that the Vandellas were HER group, and SHE was the star. You were never, ever going to get a Roz lead.

It's the age old argument that the Supremes were nothing without Diana Ross, but truthfully, and especially until Cindy joined, Diana was nothing without the Supremes. A Diana solo act in 1961 wouldn't have made it past the first release.

[Boogiedown]

I'm sure everyone has seen this clip but what the hell I'm in the mood to discuss it.

I really like the split leads and wish they had recorded it in the studio.

I do like Flo's verse and feel like she gives the song a country twang. Mary sounds very smooth on her verse and of course Diana brings the pop element into the song. Anyone else catch her saying "girl" on the last verse instead of "boy"? Lol guess she was used to the Beatles version. I now realize you had caught this as well Floy.

I also notice Mary doesn't look too thrilled. In fact the other songs they do on this show, she doesn't look thrilled. She must have been having a bad day.

This clip is almost everything Supremes to me. Three appealing young ladies performing live on stage equally exploring their talents. A little less polished yet here. My only complaint is the annoying handclappings, just feel contrived, too often.

They look great but maybe more like matadors [including the clapping] than Beatles and I was certain Diana had her derby bolted to her oddly enormous mass of a wig in order to keep it on, but in the end they tip their hats in unison so it must have not been. The hat bow an excellent ending.


---oh oh Diana does an extra hand clap at 2:15..... the performance ruined !!!

[sup_fan]

haha i bet the wardrobe mistress was frantically trying to pin that damn hat to the wig! hahaha

do you think kids "got" the british reference with the outfits?

[Ollie9]

The Supremes aren't THE SUPREMES with Diana Ross, Roz and Betty from the Vandellas. Sorry, never will buy that.

The Supremes' story would surely be different because the characters would be different. It's like our own life stories: how different would our lives be today if we had different parents, different siblings, went to different schools, gone into a different career, etc. Your story would not be the same just because you're still you.

What if Diana had been in a group with two women she had no vocal chemistry with? What if she had been in a group with a member who was like "Hell no we aint auditioning for Motown"? What if the other two Supremes were ugly and matronly? What if one of them was Barbara, with her rather flat tone? What if one or both responded to Diana's bratty behavior with ass whoopings?

The Supremes aint the Supremes without Florence and Mary, nor without Diana, and I don't think the group would have hit the heights it hit with any other combination supporting Diana because it was the charisma of all three that helped propel the group forward. It wasn't just the singles that set the world on fire, it was the visual as well.

That’s rather a lot of what if’s, with most of them being an unlikely scenario. Are you saying that had Flo decided to call it a day in 65, being replaced with Marlene Barrow that fans would have turned away or stopped buying their records feeling it was no longer the Supremes. As it stands, we are not entirely sure if Flo and to a lesser degree Mary are featured on some of those hit records with no one seeming to particularly care.

[Boogiedown]

the skinny jeans and ties ....yes!

So Diana screws up twice and Mary doesn't smile once [not sure why????]

I bet the girls got an earful from BG afterwards.

[RanRan79]

but it all started with 3 talented and engaging people. not one. that was the key to the beginning of their success

Absolutely. Had it been all about Ross from the jump, why even bother with Flo and Mary at all?

[RanRan79]

Exactly. While Roz and Betty [[and Net) were no doubt talented, they just didn't have the sparkle of Mary and Flo. The Vandellas often looked awkward. It wasn't until the lineup of Lois and Sandy that things really got cooking. But by then, Martha was a mess. One more point, Martha has always made it clear that the Vandellas were HER group, and SHE was the star. You were never, ever going to get a Roz lead.

It's the age old argument that the Supremes were nothing without Diana Ross, but truthfully, and especially until Cindy joined, Diana was nothing without the Supremes. A Diana solo act in 1961 wouldn't have made it past the first release.

I agree about the Vandellas. Lois and Sandy really added a spark to the group and it's unfortunate that it was at this point that the hits had dried up and the group had sunk in popularity. I'm guessing that had Martha been on top of her issues, the group may have seen a resurgence. They actually cut some excellent stuff after Roz left. But of course no Vandella was going to lead over Martha. It was, after all, Martha and the Vandellas, after Gloria left the group.

The Supremes as a group always had a certain something that was remarkable, even when they were cutting singles that weren't doing them a lot of favors. When they exploded it was as a unit. Flo and Mary were not nameless, faceless backup singers.

Was Diana good enough to be a solo act in 1961? Believe it or not, I think so. No, she wouldn't have been what she eventually became so quickly. She would have still needed those years of stage training and finding her voice to get it right. But she had raw talent that I think was unique enough for someone to try to work with, while at the same time, being different enough that many others may not have known what to do with her and thus may have passed on signing her.

It's always worth mentioning that with all the scuttlebutt around the group's first audition and how Gordy was only interested in Diana, not only did he choose not to sign her as a solo, he also chose not to sign the group. Had he been as enamored with her voice and thought the others were "throwaways", if you will, he would have signed her and told the others to take a hike. Instead, he eventually signed the entire group and after the first single failed, he turned to Flo for the second, his very own composition by the way.

[RanRan79]

That’s rather a lot of what if’s, with most of them being an unlikely scenario. Are you saying that had Flo decided to call it a day in 65, being replaced with Marlene Barrow that fans would have turned away or stopped buying their records feeling it was no longer the Supremes. As it stands, we are not entirely sure if Flo and to a lesser degree Mary are featured on some of those hit records with no one seeming to particularly care.

Which of the scenarios do you find to be unlikely? Are you suggesting that Diana would have vocal chemistry with any two female singers, no matter who they were?

Are you suggesting that a member of the group wouldn't want to sign to Motown? It is alleged that Flo was reluctant to bother with Motown because of rumors in the street. She obviously relented, but what if she had given a hard "no" and the other Primettes backed her up? What then?

Are you suggesting that there are no female groups with unattractive, matronly looking women? I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, no question. But while I won't single out any member of any of the female groups around at the time, I must say the idea that any one of some of them would work standing with Diana Ross as a group of glamorous young ladies is almost laughable my friend.

Are you suggesting that the sound of those records didn't benefit from the harmony of Florence and Mary? Take a listen to some of those early records. Check out Barbara in the harmony on "Who's Lovin' You", for instance, and then check out "Those DJ Shows" from a few months later when Barbara, who is still in the group, but mysteriously missing from the session. You saying the group sound is unaffected if it's Barbara and Mary singing together with no Flo? Yikes!

Are you also suggesting that Diana had no chance of ending up in a group with women who would not have hesitated to smack the shit out of her every time she got out of line? Flo and Mary put up with a lot. I'm not sure Patti Labelle or Nona Hendryx or Katherine Anderson or Cissy Houston would have had the patience. If you do, well, okay. I, however, do not.

There is only one hit record during Flo's time that is legitimately questioned as to whether or not she is on it, "You Can't Hurry Love". None of the principal players have said she isn't on it. There's an "educated" inference that she isn't. The only other one that was in question was "Stop" and George has since put that "misunderstanding" to rest, for those willing to let it go. So which hits are you questioning exactly?

Those records were great records, but again I reiterate that the Supremes were bigger than their records and that's because of the group itself. I don't think if Marlene officially replaced Florence in 1965 that the hits would have stopped rolling in. I do think the visual image of the group and the chemistry of said trio of members would have been drastically different and the group you would have gotten would have become very quickly Diana Ross and the nameless, faceless Supremes, as it eventually did when Cindy came into the group. No disrespect to Cindy, but all one has to do is look and listen to tons of performances with Flo and then tons of performances with Cindy and see that with just that change in personnel, the group was drastically different.

[Ollie9]

Which of the scenarios do you find to be unlikely? Are you suggesting that Diana would have vocal chemistry with any two female singers, no matter who they were?

Are you suggesting that a member of the group wouldn't want to sign to Motown? It is alleged that Flo was reluctant to bother with Motown because of rumors in the street. She obviously relented, but what if she had given a hard "no" and the other Primettes backed her up? What then?

Are you suggesting that there are no female groups with unattractive, matronly looking women? I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, no question. But while I won't single out any member of any of the female groups around at the time, I must say the idea that any one of some of them would work standing with Diana Ross as a group of glamorous young ladies is almost laughable my friend.

Are you suggesting that the sound of those records didn't benefit from the harmony of Florence and Mary? Take a listen to some of those early records. Check out Barbara in the harmony on "Who's Lovin' You", for instance, and then check out "Those DJ Shows" from a few months later when Barbara, who is still in the group, but mysteriously missing from the session. You saying the group sound is unaffected if it's Barbara and Mary singing together with no Flo? Yikes!

Are you also suggesting that Diana had no chance of ending up in a group with women who would not have hesitated to smack the shit out of her every time she got out of line? Flo and Mary put up with a lot. I'm not sure Patti Labelle or Nona Hendryx or Katherine Anderson or Cissy Houston would have had the patience. If you do, well, okay. I, however, do not.

There is only one hit record during Flo's time that is legitimately questioned as to whether or not she is on it, "You Can't Hurry Love". None of the principal players have said she isn't on it. There's an "educated" inference that she isn't. The only other one that was in question was "Stop" and George has since put that "misunderstanding" to rest, for those willing to let it go. So which hits are you questioning exactly?

Those records were great records, but again I reiterate that the Supremes were bigger than their records and that's because of the group itself. I don't think if Marlene officially replaced Florence in 1965 that the hits would have stopped rolling in. I do think the visual image of the group and the chemistry of said trio of members would have been drastically different and the group you would have gotten would have become very quickly Diana Ross and the nameless, faceless Supremes, as it eventually did when Cindy came into the group. No disrespect to Cindy, but all one has to do is look and listen to tons of performances with Flo and then tons of performances with Cindy and see that with just that change in personnel, the group was drastically different.

One can ‘what if’ until the cows can home. My personal opinion being that Diana was 80% of the reason the group was the success it was. Both Oprah and Barbara Walters have said that although all three women were great, it was Diana that caught the eye.
If you take Diana Ross out of the scenario and replace her with someone else what are you left with. Her unique voice was the driving force behind those mega hits, not the background harmonies as nice as they are. I’m not saying Flo and Mary weren’t great in doing what they did because they were. What I’m saying is that in a scenario where you have two other non ugly women supporting the lead singer, the story of the Supremes would probably have been much the same. Just my opinion.