Revisiting Return to Love - the Promoters Tried to Tie Diana Down for 5 Years

[sup_fan]

That's purely looking at it from a financial standpoint. Yes, it looks like a great offer business-wise and maybe that's how Lynda only saw it. After all, Lynda didn't have a personal relationship with Diana. For her, this was a sweet deal. But for Mary, it was so much more - it was financial, but incredibly personal too. Maybe Lynda wasn't considering how Mary was looking at it from a principal standpoint and what this meant to her personally.

Mary did want to be involved in the planning of this tour. She was a founding member, she carried on the group after Diana left and Motown stopped their support, represented the group at award ceremonies when Diana was a no-show, continued to tour and carry the group's legacy, etc. Mary was the Supremes. Of course she should have legitimate, constructive decision-making in the show. She was denied that and that's what her issue was. I can't fault her during this process. Paul McCartney wouldn't have planned a Beatles reunion only to tell John, George and Ringo to just "show up." They would have told him to piss off and shove the money and the tour up his ass. If I were her shoes, I would have thought "Well, if you're going to shut me out of the decision-making on a tour of the group I helped to found then I'm going to demand as much money of this as possible." Frankly, if you aren't getting what you want out of one area, why not ask for more in the other?

What it boils down to is that Diana should have contacted and gaged the temperature with Mary right away before securing any deals with TNA/SFX.
If they were on the same page then they could proceeded with the tour. If not, they could have done their own things and avoided the public humiliation. Unfortunately that's not the road they took and it hurt all of them. I've always felt that if in 2000 they were at the point in their lives like were shortly before Mary died, I think the tour may have happened.

totally agree about her being a necessary part of the planning of the tour and all. my understanding though is the promoters themselves don't care too much about the strategic decisions of what's being done on stage. obviously they have some interest as they want to recoup their investment. but other than that, i'd assume they'd be like 'sure whatever'. Diana was saying that once Mary had finalized her negotiations with the promoters THEN they could start hammering out details about how the show would flow, songs, etc.

originally this was to be a Diana solo tour which eventually morphed into the Sups reunion. so diana had already had her negotiations with the promoters. Mary was being added to an existing DR tour. that doesn't eliminate her from being in the decision making process of the show itself. but before any of that can occur, mary needed to sign a contract with the promoters. THEN they could begin work on set lists, how the act would be structured, etc.

[BobbyC]

I'm a cow but I am NOT morbid. Dammit.

[telekin]

I agree with Brad that it must have been intensely personal for Mary; when things are very personal, everything gets out of whack and the choices made aren’t always rational and the best ones. Randy said in 1989 that Mary had lost Diana forever by then - if she hadn’t by then, she certainly did by the end of RTL. That’s what is enduringly sad about the Supremes - the fans got nothing, all the Supremes outside of Diana were shortchanged and even Diana could have had greater successes if there had been a way to breech the divide.

A morbid cow would be a bloated dead cow with it’s feet in the air - not terminology proper for a Supreme or anyone here

I don't think "out of whack" decisions can only be attributed to Mary being "emotional" here. Diana too was not in the best state personally or professionally. It was only with her DUI a few years later that certainly I realized, just how deep her own turmoil must have been, and how much must have been weighing on her and impacting her ability to see and navigate things clearly.

The fans have a wealth of stories and music to keep us occupied and many people have been fed and clothed on the back of The Supremes' legacy. There's not much point in lamenting what could have been at this point.

[telekin]

my interpretation is if you look at the money she was being offered versus her costs and the number of dates she was being asked to perform in.

Mary wasn't being charged nor would her earnings have to go to cover musical charts and arrangements, staging and choreographers, dress designers, crew, etc. She was contractually being paid and regardless what the tour generated, she would get her money. I'm not sure how much she really made in 1 year of touring and work but i don't believe it was ANYWHERE near $2M, much less the additional 2 offered up. So the finances/business side showed presented shows this was an opportunity to make some really good money. not to mention whatever other personal appearance fees she'd earn. the group would have been paid for their appearance on tv shows, VH1, etc. And after the tour, there would have been some residual impact on her own personal appearance fees.

what i also interpreted was the Mary felt it was too dismissive to be told "just show up and sing and get your money." She probably wanted to be in the dialogs regarding gowns and staging, which songs do they sing and who sings what, the format of the show, etc. Basically the overall strategy. Now that brings up the point of if someone else is paying for or funding these other production components, then how much voice would she have in these dialogues?

Ostensibly, you're replying to my post, but you basically talked past everything I wrote.

No one doubts that this would have been a big payday for Mary, but clearly money was not her only, or even her primary motivation. Putting certain things above money doesn't make one ignorant or incapable of navigating show business, or any business for that matter.

This is where, however you slice it, I found Lynda's comments to be a low-blow.

[Circa 1824]

I was not a Mary Wilson fan, but she should have had limited input about the show.
Diana was a fool to think a Supremes reunion show could happen without M and C.
Mary should have been classier about RTL, but she was never particularly classy, IMHO.
I chose not to attend the show,and I regret it now.

[Spreadinglove21]

Lynda Lawrence has to be the least likable of the Supremes. Sure Diana and Mary may be more polarizing and have their share of their haters, but they each have those who are very devoted to them. That interview she gave that inspired this thread reinforces why she's not exactly a fan favorite. She's beautful, she can sing, she has talent, but....

[RanRan79]

So...who was waiting on me to chime in on this nonsense?

[jobeterob]

I agree - Lynda is talented, can sing, beautiful, and intelligent - but she speaks her mind and is very frank and it leads some people to view her quite negatively

[RanRan79]

Lynda Lawrence has to be the least likable of the Supremes. Sure Diana and Mary may be more polarizing and have their share of their haters, but they each have those who are very devoted to them. That interview she gave that inspired this thread reinforces why she's not exactly a fan favorite. She's beautful, she can sing, she has talent, but....

Lynda strikes me as an ass kisser, based on her interview. I have no problem with her speaking of her experience with Diana, but she had no right speaking on Mary and Diana's relationship, especially taking a side.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...Mary was a one of a kind star, a one of a kind legend. Seriously, who in Mary's position- spending her prime stardom years in a group where her primary role was backing vocalist- can give her a run for legendary status? Diana is one of a kind also, but as a superstar, she has her peers. Who are Mary's peers, exactly? [[By peers, I'm talking people who fit the description of "prime stardom years in a group in the background.) All the accolades, the political appointments, the books, the interviews. Mary put in work and she made sure she would not be forgotten or relegated to "chick who sang behind Diana Ross" status.

When Mary Wilson died, she proved what I thought would happen. No, she didn't have solo hits for people to wax nostalgic about or talk about how impactful she was as a recording artist. I know somewhere inside Mary's heart she probably always regretted that she didn't get at least a few hit singles and albums on her own. But what came up time and time again were people- fans, friends, people in the business- talking about Mary Wilson the woman. It would be hard to walk away from all the public statements about her in the wake of her death and not feel like you knew who Mary Wilson, the woman, really was. I'm guessing in the end, that may have mattered more to Mary than any hit song.

On the contrary, I find even now, we hear a lot about Diana Ross the entertainer. We have an idea of her as a singer, a stage performer, a recording artist, all the things that help make her the legend that she is. But can we really say we know her as Diana Ross the woman? Diana Ross the mother, probably, because her kids won't shut the hell up about her. [[I stand by that, but I do say it in jest. As someone who is crazy about his mama, I understand where they're coming from.) Likewise, Diana speaks much about motherhood herself. But when she passes- which of course is at least another thirty years away, God willing- will the statements be about that thing that makes Diana, Diana, apart from her job entertaining the world or will it be all about the music? Who out there really knows Diana Ross?

Lynda spoke all that crap about Mary not being Diana, or on Diana's level, but let's be real: Lynda aint no Mary Wilson either. And I say that as someone who is extremely fond of Lynda's Supreme status. I still believe that of all the 70s groupings, the Mary/Jean/Lynda combination contained all the essential elements that could have taken the group in a real hip direction and given the Supremes some new life. I'll always believe that Lynda was the most shortchanged of the Supremes, in terms of rewards. [[I guess one could argue that Barbara should get that title.) So I definitely agree with SL, that Lynda is indeed beautiful, can sing her butt off, immensely talented...

But Lynda Lawrence aint no Mary Wilson. Diana Ross wouldn't have even known who a Lynda Lawrence was if not for Mary Wilson. Mary gave Lynda an opportunity to be a Supreme, a status that Lynda has repeatedly used in the decades since to continue a career. I'm not saying Lynda had to like Mary. And who knows, maybe she did like Mary, but during the time of this interview there was bad blood and Lynda was in her feelings and lashing out. But the fact that it was Mary who greenlit Lynda the Supreme, should have motivated Lynda to take the high road like Scherrie did.

I'm hoping Lynda and Mary were able to make peace with each other eventually.

[RanRan79]

let's do a little "what if" discussion [[which are my fav!)

let's say there wasn't the feud going on. or that everything worked out fine. how would YOU have structured the show? would it just be DMC? would you have the 70s ladies join in? what would Mary have done and what would Diana have done on stage?

I love these too. I've read through what everyone else would have done. A lot of good ideas, a couple of which I will incorporate. I'll try to avoid the issue some of you had with too many songs. We've done this before, but I don't remember what my show looked like last time. Oh well.

So as far as setlist, I think the opening number has to be one that really gets the crowd going, so I would have them open with "You Keep Me Hangin' On". [[I won't get deep into the design of everything, but I think it would have been great if they opened with "Hangin" while standing on hanging platforms that slowly descend to the ground, playing up the whole "hangin" thing.)

I think all twelve number ones have to be performed in full. So that's twelve full songs for the list. "My World Is Empty" has to be performed in full because it's a favorite of a lot of people. Same with "Reflections".

A medley of "Lovelight", "Nothing But Heartaches", "Itchin", "In and Out of Love" and "I'm Livin In Shame"*gasp* could be performed. Or any of these songs can be done in full and alternated between dates.

A medley of "I Want a Guy", "Your Heart Belongs to Me", "Let Me Go the Right Way", "My Heart Can't Take It No More" and concluding with "A Breathtaking Guy" should be in the act every night.

I love the idea of there being a tribute to Flo in the act, especially the idea of some kind of video montage.

The show has to close with "Someday We'll Be Together", naturally.

I also think the show would have been even better if there were surprises for some dates. For instance maybe the Tempts come on stage for "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "I'll Try Something New" sometimes. Or the Four Tops appear and sing these songs with the ladies at a show. Maybe Martha and the Vandellas show up for a show and the two groups sing a medley of each other's hits or songs they both recorded. Maybe Smokey shows up and sings with them on a medley of songs he wrote for the group [[or that the group recorded).

The unannounced surprised guests throughout the tour could have also added to the desirability of attendance. Just my thoughts.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I wasn't going to respond on this topic especially after my DRATS thread but after reading RAN I do agree on some things. I actually said some of it on my thread. Diana and Mary had a history and friendship in starting the group together, much different than Lynda and Scherrie joining an established superstar for the tour. I found Lynda's comments unnecessary and distasteful. Granted, she was in a very unsuccessful line up but at the time she added a youthful energy to the group but in the same token with Jean and Mary & Cindy and Scherrie with Mary & Cindy it felt more like the Supremes. Scherrie has always paid homage to Mary as she understood without Mary she would never have been a Supreme.
Still, the article was 3 years old. I agree Mary worked tirelessly so people knew who Mary Wilson was. Lynda, on the other hand, is definitely not known outside the hardcore fans. From my understanding, Lynda was very much in charge of the business with the FLOS. I have heard that at the FLOS 25th reunion something happened between her & Jean. I wasn't there, so I don't know but still Lynda's ideas of "business" are said to be something else although I have heard from fans who say she is a joy to be around.

[floyjoy678]

Brad you might know better than me but I got the feeling that Diana still harbored resentment towards Mary with how little she spoke of her when she died and not participating at all in the anthology so I don't know if the reunion would have happened had it happened it recent years.

As far as Lynda goes, I agree that the JML line up was a lot of wasted potential. I can see Lynda's frustrations with Mary with that they could have done so much more with "The Supremes" that would have benefitted all of them but Mary held her self in a higher regard and I think she had every right to. Mary made a name for herself and as pointed out, not too many background singers from the 60s did that. Even with Flo doing very little after the Supremes, people still knew and still know who she was. That goes to show you just how important the two "background" singers were to the group and to the fans.

[reese]

I also think the show would have been even better if there were surprises for some dates. For instance maybe the Tempts come on stage for "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "I'll Try Something New" sometimes. Or the Four Tops appear and sing these songs with the ladies at a show. Maybe Martha and the Vandellas show up for a show and the two groups sing a medley of each other's hits or songs they both recorded. Maybe Smokey shows up and sings with them on a medley of songs he wrote for the group [[or that the group recorded).

The unannounced surprised guests throughout the tour could have also added to the desirability of attendance. Just my thoughts.

I like this idea of the special guests. Aretha did something similar on her 2002 tour, with Dennis Edwards, Ron Isley, and Cissy Houston joining her on some dates.

It would be nice to hear the Supremes/Tempts hits even though Eddie was gone by then, may he R.I.P. Maybe they could show some clips from TCB and GIT as well.

[daviddh]

i think all the ladies were talented and deserve respect. that being said i stand by my earlier comment , if Mary and Cindy were men , would they have been treated , paid more?
when the Police reunited each member was paid something like 11 million and the Eagles were all paid equally 9 million each. Fleetwood Mac were paid equal as well. Lindsay Buckingham bowed out of a tour for health reasons but later fired by FM because he could/ would not commit to the tour.
of course there are other groups that could not get along,Van Halen and when they were finally able to get over their personal issues , Eddie was to ill to do the tour.
not sure why RTL was cancelled . the promoters stated they did not cancel the tour ,...but did cancel some shows to pour ticket sales.?? they claimed Ross cancelled the tour.
either way, i think if i were Ross i would have insisted on the original line up or not all all. that is not a reflection on the other ladies , just that Mary and Cindy were her partners. although i must say the show looked great from the videos i saw.
perhaps changing the name of the tour to Diana Ross ,Memories of the Supremes ,may have had some positive effect in the show.not sure. although i would have personally ,if it were me.made some changes.
s far as the show is concerned ,there was nothing wrong with the show itself. they did perform most of the hits. I personally did not want to hear songs like Money Thats All I Want,.....i would have preferred Nothing But heartaches or Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking.
no show tunes /standards for me,unless they did Rogers and Hart material.
i think Diana was wrong but so was Mary.equally.
now we just have our memories and music.

[daviddh]

as i recall the show
reflections
my world is empty without you
come see about me
love is an itching in my heart
back in my arms again

where did our love go
baby love
stop in the name of love
you cant hurry love
love child

i hear a symphony
love is here n now youre gone
the happening
when the lovelight starts shinning
you keep me hangin on
reach out ill be there

up the ladder to the roof
stoned love
aint no mountain high enough
chain reaction
best years of my life

i will survive

of course this is from memory. i would have dropped IWS and went with Brand New Day or another Supremes song.obviously someday well be together was left out of the show

[jobucats]

There was a short "behind the scenes" docu on the making of Diana's DIVAS concert.

Donna Summer was originally scheduled to be the third singer during the "Baby Love/Stop!" segment, but wasn't comfortable performing as there had been no rehearsal. This apparently was done last minute; if you watch, it appears that Mariah and Diana are looking offstage, waiting for Donna appear.

The producers called this the highlight that "could have been".

If you can find it, it's a good watch. They also talk about how their vision was to feature the women as superheros in the promos, but Diana nixed that and instead opted for "everything pink".

I am sorry that I cannot document this; however, I seem to recall reading or viewing programming that indicated that Donna was reluctant about appearing on the stage dressed in the same type of skimpy outfits Mariah and Diana were wearing.

[reese]

I am sorry that I cannot document this; however, I seem to recall reading or viewing programming that indicated that Donna was reluctant about appearing on the stage dressed in the same type of skimpy outfits Mariah and Diana were wearing.

That's what I recall hearing as well. I think Bluebrock confirmed in a recent thread that wardrobe was one of the reasons Donna pulled out of the Supremes medley.

[bradsupremes]

Brad you might know better than me but I got the feeling that Diana still harbored resentment towards Mary with how little she spoke of her when she died and not participating at all in the anthology so I don't know if the reunion would have happened had it happened it recent years.

I really can’t speak to Diana’s feelings about Mary. I don’t know how she felt. Diana is a private person and doesn’t like to speak ill of anyone. I do wish she said more about Mary in the wake of her death and included some sort of tribute/acknowledgment of Mary in her shows, but she does what she thinks is best. The fact her children made nice tributes to Mary speaks volumes that the family certainly didn’t harbor bad feelings.

I don’t think a reunion would have happened in recent years. I just felt that if both ladies were in the mindset in 1999/2000 like they were just prior to Mary’s death, I think a reunion may have happened. Their relationship in recent years was much healthier, they were in communication, and at least on two occasions took photos together in public. I remember Mary telling me she had been emailing Diana and then later Diana acknowledged in concert they were texting. Had they had that kind of relationship in 1999, the chances of a reunion was much more likely.

[Circa 1824]

I am sorry that I cannot document this; however, I seem to recall reading or viewing programming that indicated that Donna was reluctant about appearing on the stage dressed in the same type of skimpy outfits Mariah and Diana were wearing.

[[Personally, I don't believe anyone who posts here has any real insider info despite what is alluded to.)

What I read at the time, Donna was not happy with having no proper rehearsal, which was Diana's careless style [[aka Motown 25), so Donna declined to join in.

[carlo]

[[Personally, I don't believe anyone who posts here has any real insider info despite what is alluded to.)

Agreed.

What I read at the time, Donna was not happy with having no proper rehearsal, which was Diana's careless style [[aka Motown 25), so Donna declined to join in.

I also agree with your assessment of the situation. I think the bit about Donna being uncomfortable about the mini skirts as the reason for her pulling out of the Supremes number is nothing more than false gossip. If that were true, I don't doubt that Diana would have been happy to compromise with wearing something else altogether, if it meant having Donna participate. The lack of rehearsal time was more than likely to blame.

[carlo]

But Lynda Lawrence aint no Mary Wilson. Diana Ross wouldn't have even known who a Lynda Lawrence was if not for Mary Wilson. Mary gave Lynda an opportunity to be a Supreme, a status that Lynda has repeatedly used in the decades since to continue a career. I'm not saying Lynda had to like Mary. And who knows, maybe she did like Mary, but during the time of this interview there was bad blood and Lynda was in her feelings and lashing out. But the fact that it was Mary who greenlit Lynda the Supreme, should have motivated Lynda to take the high road like Scherrie did.

Well said.

I was just doing a quick Google search, remembering how Mary had filed a lawsuit against Scherrie and Lynda, back in the 90's. I also remembered how Diana had attended their show in 1998, which is mentioned in this article, with some quotes from Lynda.

It must have really pissed Mary off, to see Diana give her seal of approval to the FLOS in the midst of the legal proceedings.

https://www.oocities.org/supremefan/flos.html

[jobeterob]

When you have a current connection, you would think you could lose it pretty quickly by talking.

It was not often acknowledged but once in a while you heard Mary was not getting on so well with most of the other former Supremes - understandable because while Diana could get the best bookings, Mary was competing with the FLOS and while Mary may have had the edge on Supremes connections and nostalgia, the FLOS duplicated the Supremes sound better.

[Ollie9]

I don't think "out of whack" decisions can only be attributed to Mary being "emotional" here. Diana too was not in the best state personally or professionally. It was only with her DUI a few years later that certainly I realized, just how deep her own turmoil must have been, and how much must have been weighing on her and impacting her ability to see and navigate things clearly.

The fans have a wealth of stories and music to keep us occupied and many people have been fed and clothed on the back of The Supremes' legacy. There's not much point in lamenting what could have been at this point.

As underlined, Diana was not in a good place emotionally around this time which surely affected her decision making
It would be extremely interesting to hear Diana’s perspective on the drama of RTL here in 2023. A new book please.

[Ollie9]

That's purely looking at it from a financial standpoint. Yes, it looks like a great offer business-wise and maybe that's how Lynda only saw it. After all, Lynda didn't have a personal relationship with Diana. For her, this was a sweet deal. But for Mary, it was so much more - it was financial, but incredibly personal too. Maybe Lynda wasn't considering how Mary was looking at it from a principal standpoint and what this meant to her personally.

Mary did want to be involved in the planning of this tour. She was a founding member, she carried on the group after Diana left and Motown stopped their support, represented the group at award ceremonies when Diana was a no-show, continued to tour and carry the group's legacy, etc. Mary was the Supremes. Of course she should have legitimate, constructive decision-making in the show. She was denied that and that's what her issue was. I can't fault her during this process. Paul McCartney wouldn't have planned a Beatles reunion only to tell John, George and Ringo to just "show up." They would have told him to piss off and shove the money and the tour up his ass. If I were her shoes, I would have thought "Well, if you're going to shut me out of the decision-making on a tour of the group I helped to found then I'm going to demand as much money of this as possible." Frankly, if you aren't getting what you want out of one area, why not ask for more in the other?

What it boils down to is that Diana should have contacted and gaged the temperature with Mary right away before securing any deals with TNA/SFX.
If they were on the same page then they could proceeded with the tour. If not, they could have done their own things and avoided the public humiliation. Unfortunately that's not the road they took and it hurt all of them. I've always felt that if in 2000 they were at the point in their lives like were shortly before Mary died, I think the tour may have happened.

Nail on head post brad, particularly regarding Diana gaging the mood before plunging into negotiations. To much emotional involvement invested for that not to be the case as was proved.
Also agree regarding Beatles same scenario. Can you just imagine lol.

[RanRan79]

I like this idea of the special guests. Aretha did something similar on her 2002 tour, with Dennis Edwards, Ron Isley, and Cissy Houston joining her on some dates.

It would be nice to hear the Supremes/Tempts hits even though Eddie was gone by then, may he R.I.P. Maybe they could show some clips from TCB and GIT as well.

Yeah, that would have really made the tour even more memorable.

[RanRan79]

I really can’t speak to Diana’s feelings about Mary. I don’t know how she felt. Diana is a private person and doesn’t like to speak ill of anyone. I do wish she said more about Mary in the wake of her death and included some sort of tribute/acknowledgment of Mary in her shows, but she does what she thinks is best. The fact her children made nice tributes to Mary speaks volumes that the family certainly didn’t harbor bad feelings.

I don’t think a reunion would have happened in recent years. I just felt that if both ladies were in the mindset in 1999/2000 like they were just prior to Mary’s death, I think a reunion may have happened. Their relationship in recent years was much healthier, they were in communication, and at least on two occasions took photos together in public. I remember Mary telling me she had been emailing Diana and then later Diana acknowledged in concert they were texting. Had they had that kind of relationship in 1999, the chances of a reunion was much more likely.

I can't blame Diana for being completely over a music reunion with Mary. Both times were complete disasters. And regardless of how much blame any one of them should get, the undeniable truth is that negativity arose and destroyed the entire thing. At some point you say to yourself, "I'm over it, never again".

For the record, I place the blame for the failure of the 1983 reunion entirely on Diana. I won't be convinced otherwise. RTL, on the other hand, can be spread out among the guilty, and for my POV the biggest misstep was Mary going public with her grievance. Her grievances were largely legit. The only one I had a problem with was her annoyance at the disparity between how much money she would get vs how much Diana would get. As I understood it, Diana was also investing money in the tour, so if Mary wasn't doing the same, why shouldn't Diana get more money out of the gig? But everything else, Mary was pretty spot on about.

But why not let that all stay behind closed doors? Do the business in private. If it breaks down, the public doesn't have to know why. Just say "We couldn't come to terms on the negotiations, but I wish Diana and the girls the best" and leave it at that? Shoot, even with that people are going to talk and speculate, but Mary could have always shown up in the audience for a show. Diana could pull her on stage and they could at least have a moment where they show the world it's business, not personal. But it was personal and the laundry was aired, and there were dueling catty interviews, and it was one big shit show. And as usual, Diana went on with her life, Mary went on with hers, and we fans were cheated out of a once in a lifetime fan experience.

From what we know about Diana and Mary is that they have these breakdown in relationship every few years and then somehow they'd end up speaking again. I think that speaks to the love they had for each other. Some in the forum like to think of the original Supremes as nothing more than co-workers. Fine, if that makes you feel better. Obviously as their career hit the moon and the pressures of celebrity and constant working weighed them down, it's hard to refer to them as "friends", when they seemed to be at each other's throats all the time. But I think after everything they'd been through together, at a certain point, it really isn't a friendship anymore, it's family, so there's always a connection or a need to connect. Despite everything, I believe Diana and Mary viewed one another as family.

"She gets on my last nerve sometimes, but every now and then I need to hear her voice."

That's how I see it, anyway.

[RanRan79]

Well said.

I was just doing a quick Google search, remembering how Mary had filed a lawsuit against Scherrie and Lynda, back in the 90's. I also remembered how Diana had attended their show in 1998, which is mentioned in this article, with some quotes from Lynda.

It must have really pissed Mary off, to see Diana give her seal of approval to the FLOS in the midst of the legal proceedings.

https://www.oocities.org/supremefan/flos.html

Yeah, I can imagine Mary was hot about that. It's also possible that Diana wasn't aware of the issue, I'm guessing.

[floyjoy678]

I don't think Diana hated Mary. I do think the original Supremes viewed each other as sisters and all three have said that in different ways. I do think Diana views the Supremes as a painful time in her life though especially the years they were on top. But I do wish she'd hold a certain someone responsible for that rather than projecting it towards the group.

[gman]

so much wrong with the entire thing....I tried to refrain from commenting on the exhausted RTL topic...but this Lynda info is news to me...it was unnecessary, and unprofessional to publicly make the comments in such detail, and in a surly manor....here is something I heard years ago from a friend/fan who claimed to have a very reliable source for this information...I have no reason to doubt this, he's been in touch every former Supreme except Diana and Jean....and he kept this to himself and didn't tell me this info till just a few years ago....
Lynda was not the booking agent, but she did handle the day to day /on the road business affairs for the JSL grouping of FLO's...we all know Jean hates the business side of being a performer, and perhaps Scherrie just had no interest getting involved with it...Lynda's father was in the music business for a very long time...perhaps she learned enough about the dealings first hand from her respected Dixie Hummingbirds group leader Dad, Ira Tucker Sr...
what my friend told me: Jean became extremely aggitated on a trans continental flight home...from Japan, I believe...all 3 were sitting together and Jean stated that she should be given more than 1/3rd share because her voice is the one on the more familiar bigger 70's hits that the fans would recognize...[[since the group was actively recording and all 3 were singing leads on the current material, there was a possibility that they would have a successful release with anyone singing lead..the Ian Levine sessions were supposed to be released as a LP featuring new material and covers...I am assuming that the LP was held up b/c there were constant distribution problems with the Motorcity material, and this most likely would have been the to date labels flagship release...so hesitating to find adequate distribution is understandable...) Jean and Lynda got into an argument, and Lynda changed her seat....then Jean started with Scherrie....who also changed her seat...once they arrived home, Lynda and Scherrie decided that they did not want to continue with Jean going forward.
The FLO's had legal fee's to pay concerning Mary's lawsuit...since Jean was a personally named as a member of the performing group being sued, she took part in the LA show that was booked to offset the legal expenses...Jean refused to perform the encore I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking further souring the relationship between the first and only true group of FLO's.
On a ending note, the Jean, Scherrie, Lynda performance from the Dominion Theatre is IMHO superb....and far surpasses any full live performance I've ever seen of any grouping under The Supremes name...the arrangements are kept to a recognizable tempo, and the brass is not overpowering....something that plagued every grouping live.....despite my love for Scherrie, I lost all interest in the FLO's except for a quick check in once Jean left.

[daviddh]

I love these too. I've read through what everyone else would have done. A lot of good ideas, a couple of which I will incorporate. I'll try to avoid the issue some of you had with too many songs. We've done this before, but I don't remember what my show looked like last time. Oh well.

So as far as setlist, I think the opening number has to be one that really gets the crowd going, so I would have them open with "You Keep Me Hangin' On". [[I won't get deep into the design of everything, but I think it would have been great if they opened with "Hangin" while standing on hanging platforms that slowly descend to the ground, playing up the whole "hangin" thing.)

I think all twelve number ones have to be performed in full. So that's twelve full songs for the list. "My World Is Empty" has to be performed in full because it's a favorite of a lot of people. Same with "Reflections".

A medley of "Lovelight", "Nothing But Heartaches", "Itchin", "In and Out of Love" and "I'm Livin In Shame"*gasp* could be performed. Or any of these songs can be done in full and alternated between dates.

A medley of "I Want a Guy", "Your Heart Belongs to Me", "Let Me Go the Right Way", "My Heart Can't Take It No More" and concluding with "A Breathtaking Guy" should be in the act every night.

I love the idea of there being a tribute to Flo in the act, especially the idea of some kind of video montage.

The show has to close with "Someday We'll Be Together", naturally.

I also think the show would have been even better if there were surprises for some dates. For instance maybe the Tempts come on stage for "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "I'll Try Something New" sometimes. Or the Four Tops appear and sing these songs with the ladies at a show. Maybe Martha and the Vandellas show up for a show and the two groups sing a medley of each other's hits or songs they both recorded. Maybe Smokey shows up and sings with them on a medley of songs he wrote for the group [[or that the group recorded).

The unannounced surprised guests throughout the tour could have also added to the desirability of attendance. Just my thoughts.

I like the idea but no medleys for me unless that's the only way to do them.
Maybe Diana performing Missing You.
I always thought Forever Came Today would be a good opener

[sup_fan]

so much wrong with the entire thing....I tried to refrain from commenting on the exhausted RTL topic...but this Lynda info is news to me...it was unnecessary, and unprofessional to publicly make the comments in such detail, and in a surly manor....here is something I heard years ago from a friend/fan who claimed to have a very reliable source for this information...I have no reason to doubt this, he's been in touch every former Supreme except Diana and Jean....and he kept this to himself and didn't tell me this info till just a few years ago....
Lynda was not the booking agent, but she did handle the day to day /on the road business affairs for the JSL grouping of FLO's...we all know Jean hates the business side of being a performer, and perhaps Scherrie just had no interest getting involved with it...Lynda's father was in the music business for a very long time...perhaps she learned enough about the dealings first hand from her respected Dixie Hummingbirds group leader Dad, Ira Tucker Sr...
what my friend told me: Jean became extremely aggitated on a trans continental flight home...from Japan, I believe...all 3 were sitting together and Jean stated that she should be given more than 1/3rd share because her voice is the one on the more familiar bigger 70's hits that the fans would recognize...[[since the group was actively recording and all 3 were singing leads on the current material, there was a possibility that they would have a successful release with anyone singing lead..the Ian Levine sessions were supposed to be released as a LP featuring new material and covers...I am assuming that the LP was held up b/c there were constant distribution problems with the Motorcity material, and this most likely would have been the to date labels flagship release...so hesitating to find adequate distribution is understandable...) Jean and Lynda got into an argument, and Lynda changed her seat....then Jean started with Scherrie....who also changed her seat...once they arrived home, Lynda and Scherrie decided that they did not want to continue with Jean going forward.
The FLO's had legal fee's to pay concerning Mary's lawsuit...since Jean was a personally named as a member of the performing group being sued, she took part in the LA show that was booked to offset the legal expenses...Jean refused to perform the encore I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking further souring the relationship between the first and only true group of FLO's.
On a ending note, the Jean, Scherrie, Lynda performance from the Dominion Theatre is IMHO superb....and far surpasses any full live performance I've ever seen of any grouping under The Supremes name...the arrangements are kept to a recognizable tempo, and the brass is not overpowering....something that plagued every grouping live.....despite my love for Scherrie, I lost all interest in the FLO's except for a quick check in once Jean left.

yeah i've heard that jean had problems with the FLOs too. but i believe the original FLOs was Jean Cindy and Scherrie. not sure if they recorded anything but i believe they made a few appearances. then Lynda [[again) replaced Cindy

my thought is that Jean just hated the heavy work and stress of being a performer. she clearly loves to sing and is gloriously talented. but maybe the best option for her would have been something MUCH more low key. singing with a choir at church or something

i agree that the interview Lynda gave was not the most discrete statements. my guess is her comments about finances were intended as sort of a "in addition to" mentality. I'm sure she recognized the huge emotional element of reuniting the Supremes. that this would be a huge event that would mostly center around DMC with the 70s girls maybe being a part, maybe joining in during Act 2. so i read her comments about the finances as being "in addition to this historic event there was a shitton of money to be made" But yes, this too might have been best just not mentioned at all

[gman]

Jean is such a treasure...she's a stylist...I believe she would be fine actively performing if she doesn't have to stay away from home so long...I think that's what burnt her out with the Supremes...they became a non stop "road act"...she def knew she'd have to work very hard for a period of time to get the New Supremes established...and she did...but by mid '71 after 18 months of it she probably considered that job done, and wanted to be off the road a lot more...if she was a salaried employee receiving royalties, her income must have dropped considerably once the top 10 Pop Chart records stopped....it's too bad the FLO'S LP wasn't released while the JSL unit was new or still in tact...with some TV work it would have been a great launching platform for the Motorcity label here in the States....of all the Motorcity tracks I think the duet with the Originals BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND and I WANT TO BE LOVED were the most hit worthy...Lynda in particular recorded some excellent solo tracks...Living With A Married Man, If This World Were Mine and Forever Came Today were my favorites...

[PeaceNHarmony]

Of course, it SHOULD not be necessary to mention that Diana is still selling out concerts. Others? Not so much.

[midnightman]

the VH1 show was the highest rated but i think it was a very weak kickoff to the whole RTL. Diana was really not in good voice. her vocals were so weak and scratchy. perhaps the average viewer didn't notice but i cringed through most of it. the guests were all fine enough. i thought it was a good variety of performers. but the duetting of Mirah and Diana seemed a bit odd, that there wasn't a third. it felt that like segment got more focus and attention than DLS doing the sups songs.

this should have been a highlight of diana's career and something to help springboard into the 2000s and reconnect her with the broader general public. even without the RTL fiasco following, i don't think this would have done the job

From what I gathered, the Diana Divas concert was an immediate trainwreck as opposed to the two previous Divas specials headlined by Aretha and Whitney respectively. Those two found Ree and Nippy at the top of their game. By the time Diana did it - they had to make it a tribute to appease her obviously lol - however, you can see her struggling. Also 1999-2000 was the beginning of a very rough period in her life and career: the Heathrow incident was still fresh on people's minds and the controversy surrounding the negotiations with Mary was on a lot of folks' minds. And yes Diana was not singing real well or even performing great at all.

As for this article, Lynda was pretty doggone disrespectful. Glad to hear they patched things up before Mary passed though.

[midnightman]

I really can’t speak to Diana’s feelings about Mary. I don’t know how she felt. Diana is a private person and doesn’t like to speak ill of anyone. I do wish she said more about Mary in the wake of her death and included some sort of tribute/acknowledgment of Mary in her shows, but she does what she thinks is best. The fact her children made nice tributes to Mary speaks volumes that the family certainly didn’t harbor bad feelings.

I don’t think a reunion would have happened in recent years. I just felt that if both ladies were in the mindset in 1999/2000 like they were just prior to Mary’s death, I think a reunion may have happened. Their relationship in recent years was much healthier, they were in communication, and at least on two occasions took photos together in public. I remember Mary telling me she had been emailing Diana and then later Diana acknowledged in concert they were texting. Had they had that kind of relationship in 1999, the chances of a reunion was much more likely.

Diana was always a loner. That's why it's hard to get word out of her. We know little of this lady. Least with Flo and Mary you understood where they were coming from, Cindy too. Diana remains an enigma, a mystery. Even with the many books written about her, we still don't. Besides the steely, determined woman who wanted to become a star. That's it.

[Spreadinglove21]

Diana was always a loner. That's why it's hard to get word out of her. We know little of this lady. Least with Flo and Mary you understood where they were coming from, Cindy too. Diana remains an enigma, a mystery. Even with the many books written about her, we still don't. Besides the steely, determined woman who wanted to become a star. That's it.

Either she's enigmatic, or there's not much there there.

[midnightman]

Either she's enigmatic, or there's not much there there.

I mean that could be true too.

[jobeterob]

I think her standard response is similar to what the Royal Family does in England - there’s no comment or reply or acknowledgement

If you vary from that path, you are damned no matter what the comment you make is.

It seems to me that’s generally the path she’s taken since Florence died. She varied after RTL and while I don’t think the response was too bad, it just provided some fodder to keep the theories and the chat alive and every phrase got parsed - the same way her response to the Supremes Lifetime Grammy did.

[gman]

BTW....I've seen a YT video of the JSL grouping of FLO's performing Love Is Here And Now You're Gone....and Lynda does the lead....it is wonderful....she has been quoted as saying its her favorite Supremes song...I don't think the song is given as the title of the video...but they were wearing the different color / same style gowns....Lynda's orange, Jeans green and Scherries purple if I remember correctly....worth seeking out!

[jim aka jtigre99]

Lynda Laurence, Businesswoman

[sup_fan]

I think her standard response is similar to what the Royal Family does in England - there’s no comment or reply or acknowledgement

If you vary from that path, you are damned no matter what the comment you make is.

It seems to me that’s generally the path she’s taken since Florence died. She varied after RTL and while I don’t think the response was too bad, it just provided some fodder to keep the theories and the chat alive and every phrase got parsed - the same way her response to the Supremes Lifetime Grammy did.

i agree. there's so much history here, ups and downs, highs and lows. only on the rare occasion does she open up, like she did with Barbara Walters with the RTL fracas. and 9 times out of 10, she still ends up with some egg on her face. not that she doesn't necessarily deserve a bit of it but it can certainly lead to someone just taking the "no comment" role

[carlo]

Lynda Laurence, Businesswoman

Nice video interview with Lynda, Jim. She's not wrong, in terms of what she talks about here.

[jobeterob]

Nice video interview with Lynda, Jim. She's not wrong, in terms of what she talks about here.

It's pretty clear that Lynda is her own person; she's intelligent and has been around a while and speaks her mind clearly.

Her personality indicates that if she disagreed with you, she'd let you know.

[sup_fan]

It's pretty clear that Lynda is her own person; she's intelligent and has been around a while and speaks her mind clearly.

Her personality indicates that if she disagreed with you, she'd let you know.

agreed. that was certainly something i think many if not all of the 70s members brought was an understanding of the "business." they entered the group as adults, in the later 20s or even 30s. DMF were teenagers. so there would naturally be a different perspective or understanding of business.

in the professional world, if you're hired into a new company it's typically a mix of you bringing in some new perspective or talent and you adjusting to that existing professional environment. few people are successful coming in and totally attempting to change the business's status quo but also it's best for the business to be open to the new talents and capabilities the new employee brings

i think Lynda and Susaye ran into resistance from "the business" of the Supremes because they were new. it seems like they were both sort of relegated to "third chair." and while i don't think anyone would necessarily expect them to have a full1/3 partnership in the group and everything, IMO their roles were too diminished. So giving them more lead opportunities, giving them more involvement, etc.

[jobeterob]

agreed. that was certainly something i think many if not all of the 70s members brought was an understanding of the "business." they entered the group as adults, in the later 20s or even 30s. DMF were teenagers. so there would naturally be a different perspective or understanding of business.

in the professional world, if you're hired into a new company it's typically a mix of you bringing in some new perspective or talent and you adjusting to that existing professional environment. few people are successful coming in and totally attempting to change the business's status quo but also it's best for the business to be open to the new talents and capabilities the new employee brings

i think Lynda and Susaye ran into resistance from "the business" of the Supremes because they were new. it seems like they were both sort of relegated to "third chair." and while i don't think anyone would necessarily expect them to have a full1/3 partnership in the group and everything, IMO their roles were too diminished. So giving them more lead opportunities, giving them more involvement, etc.

Nothing worked right after 1972 or so.

I think it might have worked if Mary had alone [[if that was possible) completely taken over the Supremes and had some employed Supremes like Martha had for Vandellas. I don't know if Mary's voice was strong enough or commercial enough for that to work. And if Pedro was involved, there was another negative issue.

The other possibility is for some grouping of Lynda, Scherrie, Cindy, Jean, and Susaye to take it over and change the group; but Jean may not have fit anymore although her sound was the most Supreme sounding with the best potential for success.

I've always thought there was possibilities for something.

Instead, the best we got was RTL and a couple of pictures of Mary and Diana together and 10 seconds of a reunion on M25.

They made Otis look like a master manager.

[RanRan79]

They made Otis look like a master manager.

Because that's what Otis is. Otis took the Tempts super serious. Whether any singer was an original Tempt or a replacement, Otis took great care to ensure that no one man could bring the group down. Now that's not to say Otis is without criticism, but there is something to be said about the way he has kept the Tempts alive through way more groupings than there has ever been of Supremes. Plus, it appears that neither Otis or Melvin saw themselves as solo material, and thus the Tempts was life in a way that it obviously wasn't for several others who successfully or unsuccessfully went solo. And in addition to all of that, Otis has been allowed to run the Tempts his way even when Berry Gordy was supposed to be the beginning and ending of everything Motown.

Mary's Supremes never had that luxury. And with everything going on, Mary brought in her husband, who had no experience and was most likely using Supremes manager as a way to keep his wife under his thumb. Looking back, Pedro was probably the absolute worst thing that happened to the Supremes in the 70s. Mary really didn't have the know how to guide the group in the way Otis had it. Otis had been doing that job since basically day one. In the 60s, Diana and Florence took charge of the Supremes and decisions- being the strong willed women that they were- as far back as the Primettes days. I haven't read anything that suggested that Mary was in control of anything [[except maybe collecting the money from their gigs). Then Berry completely takes over. Flo gets sidelined and even though Diana is able to voice more of her ideas, the group still belonged to Berry, he made the final decisions, and if any Supreme didn't like it- including Diana- she was SOL. Now the 70s is moving ahead, Gordy has "washed" his hands, Flo is gone, Diana is gone, it's officially Mary's group, but she's in over her head. She isn't used to calling the shots and now it's on the job training. And by the time she might have finally gotten a handle on things, she marries Pedro, makes him the manager, and now once again she isn't really deciding anything, he is, and he sure as hell doesn't know what he's doing.

Otis deserves an award for what he's done for the Tempts. The best thing Mary did was let the Supremes die and move on. Too much damage already done.

[TNSUN]

Wow. Seems like the producers wanted a cash cow for 5 years. Folks, it is show business.

[Ollie9]

Because that's what Otis is. Otis took the Tempts super serious. Whether any singer was an original Tempt or a replacement, Otis took great care to ensure that no one man could bring the group down. Now that's not to say Otis is without criticism, but there is something to be said about the way he has kept the Tempts alive through way more groupings than there has ever been of Supremes. Plus, it appears that neither Otis or Melvin saw themselves as solo material, and thus the Tempts was life in a way that it obviously wasn't for several others who successfully or unsuccessfully went solo. And in addition to all of that, Otis has been allowed to run the Tempts his way even when Berry Gordy was supposed to be the beginning and ending of everything Motown.

Mary's Supremes never had that luxury. And with everything going on, Mary brought in her husband, who had no experience and was most likely using Supremes manager as a way to keep his wife under his thumb. Looking back, Pedro was probably the absolute worst thing that happened to the Supremes in the 70s. Mary really didn't have the know how to guide the group in the way Otis had it. Otis had been doing that job since basically day one. In the 60s, Diana and Florence took charge of the Supremes and decisions- being the strong willed women that they were- as far back as the Primettes days. I haven't read anything that suggested that Mary was in control of anything [[except maybe collecting the money from their gigs). Then Berry completely takes over. Flo gets sidelined and even though Diana is able to voice more of her ideas, the group still belonged to Berry, he made the final decisions, and if any Supreme didn't like it- including Diana- she was SOL. Now the 70s is moving ahead, Gordy has "washed" his hands, Flo is gone, Diana is gone, it's officially Mary's group, but she's in over her head. She isn't used to calling the shots and now it's on the job training. And by the time she might have finally gotten a handle on things, she marries Pedro, makes him the manager, and now once again she isn't really deciding anything, he is, and he sure as hell doesn't know what he's doing.

Otis deserves an award for what he's done for the Tempts. The best thing Mary did was let the Supremes die and move on. Too much damage already done.

She should have reformed the group in the very early 80’s with Scherrie and Lynda. The focus would be on new material and revamped hits as opposed to standards. Altering the name slightly to “New Supremes’ would also have been a good idea.

[telekin]

Because that's what Otis is. Otis took the Tempts super serious. Whether any singer was an original Tempt or a replacement, Otis took great care to ensure that no one man could bring the group down. Now that's not to say Otis is without criticism, but there is something to be said about the way he has kept the Tempts alive through way more groupings than there has ever been of Supremes. Plus, it appears that neither Otis or Melvin saw themselves as solo material, and thus the Tempts was life in a way that it obviously wasn't for several others who successfully or unsuccessfully went solo. And in addition to all of that, Otis has been allowed to run the Tempts his way even when Berry Gordy was supposed to be the beginning and ending of everything Motown.

Mary's Supremes never had that luxury. And with everything going on, Mary brought in her husband, who had no experience and was most likely using Supremes manager as a way to keep his wife under his thumb. Looking back, Pedro was probably the absolute worst thing that happened to the Supremes in the 70s. Mary really didn't have the know how to guide the group in the way Otis had it. Otis had been doing that job since basically day one. In the 60s, Diana and Florence took charge of the Supremes and decisions- being the strong willed women that they were- as far back as the Primettes days. I haven't read anything that suggested that Mary was in control of anything [[except maybe collecting the money from their gigs). Then Berry completely takes over. Flo gets sidelined and even though Diana is able to voice more of her ideas, the group still belonged to Berry, he made the final decisions, and if any Supreme didn't like it- including Diana- she was SOL. Now the 70s is moving ahead, Gordy has "washed" his hands, Flo is gone, Diana is gone, it's officially Mary's group, but she's in over her head. She isn't used to calling the shots and now it's on the job training. And by the time she might have finally gotten a handle on things, she marries Pedro, makes him the manager, and now once again she isn't really deciding anything, he is, and he sure as hell doesn't know what he's doing.

Otis deserves an award for what he's done for the Tempts. The best thing Mary did was let the Supremes die and move on. Too much damage already done.

I agree with most of what you said, Ran. But some added context - there are few groups who survive on the same level after a lead singer departs and becomes a star of Diana's magnitude. I mean, you had The Miracles who had a good run after Smokey left, of course. But I'm having trouble coming up with too many others. I think The Supremes had about as good a run as one might expect, in some ways.

Point being The post-Ross Supremes were being hit hard for their revolving door lineup, in a way that The Temptations weren't. And The Temptations had many more lineup changes than The Supremes had. While I think The Supremes had a bit of a raw deal in the 1970s, at the same time, circumstances being what they were, ending the group when it did helped stop some of that bleeding.

Where I depart slightly is that I find that while Pedro was a bad husband, I tend to think he often gets scapegoated for things that were largely already in motion. Mary was far from the only female entertainer who resorted to having her husband manage their affairs, but that's another thread.

[RanRan79]

She should have reformed the group in the very early 80’s with Scherrie and Lynda. The focus would be on new material and revamped hits as opposed to standards. Altering the name slightly to “New Supremes’ would also have been a good idea.

And when that failed, what then?

Mary was never going to be happy being a Supreme that long without Florence and Diana. I'm really leaning into the fan idea that the Supremes stayed a "thing" a tad bit too long. When Jean and Lynda exited at basically the same time, Mary should have gone for herself. And why not? Everybody else was doing what was best for themselves, while Mary was constantly having to worry about what was best for the Supremes. At some point that gets tiring.

Motown in the 70s was wishy washy with the group. There's no reason to believe the label would have been any more supportive in the 80s. And if Motown wasn't in the mix, there certainly wouldn't have been any touring as the Supremes, new or otherwise. And then there's Mary and Lynda. Yeah, that probably wouldn't have ended well.