Revisiting Return to Love - the Promoters Tried to Tie Diana Down for 5 Years

[RanRan79]

Perhaps that line was Diana having a dig at Mary lol.
Aside from financial negotiations as to who would be paid what, Mary was never going to be satisfied with just one solo. Then of course there was Cindy to consider.
Perhaps if Mary had signed the dotted line, Diana’s solo numbers would have been dropped and replaced with further Supremes songs. A medley of their early flops would have been fun.
Hard to imagine Mary kicking her heels backstage while Diana went solo.

I think songs from Diana's solo career at RTL was because this wasn't a traditional reunion tour. It was quite literally Diana Ross...and special guests, the Supremes. So a mix of cuts from her entire career makes sense. Had Mary and Cindy been on the tour, I find it unlikely, although not impossible, that the show would have been anything other than Supremes songs. I don't know about solos, but I would assume Mary would be given a couple of leads. Of course that would mean Diana would sing backup and I'm not sure how she would have handled the suggestion.

Mary: Okay Cindy, Diane, while I'm singing lead, y'all do the backup.

Diane: No. I don't do backup.

Mary: Oh come on Diane. It's just a few oohs and aahs.

Diane: I don't do oohs and aahs...unless it's "Baby Love" or "Aint No Mountain High Enough", both of which I sing lead on.

Mary: Fine. How about we do "Endless Love"? I'll do Lionel Richie's part."

[jobeterob]

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...281-story.html

In this article, Diana Ross said the tour was over and the Promoter didn’t agree

[reese]

Do we know that Mary was negotiating on behalf of Cindy? That just seems so strange, as does Mary doing the negotiations even for herself. Seems like her attorney would be involved, and if that's the case, then maybe Mary and Cindy had the same attorney. It's all so weird.

In at least one interview I read [I'm thinking it was with Goldmine or Discoveries], Cindy confirmed that she let Mary negotiate for her as well and that she regretted it.

It bears mentioning that in NEXT magazine, Mary is quoted as saying: "Cindy and I are united on this. We are each a free agent. Cindy was ready to do it just as I was. However, Cindy was also dropped when they didn't take me. It was not Cindy's choice not to be a part of that tour, but she has been very quiet because she's a minister now and not the kind who wants to go on the record and talk about negativity."

When the tour was showing signs of not doing well, Cindy stated in USA TODAY that she had contacted Diana and told her "let's give the people what they want" or something to that effect but Diana hadn't responded as of yet.

[Ollie9]

I think songs from Diana's solo career at RTL was because this wasn't a traditional reunion tour. It was quite literally Diana Ross...and special guests, the Supremes. So a mix of cuts from her entire career makes sense. Had Mary and Cindy been on the tour, I find it unlikely, although not impossible, that the show would have been anything other than Supremes songs. I don't know about solos, but I would assume Mary would be given a couple of leads. Of course that would mean Diana would sing backup and I'm not sure how she would have handled the suggestion.

Mary: Okay Cindy, Diane, while I'm singing lead, y'all do the backup.

Diane: No. I don't do backup.

Mary: Oh come on Diane. It's just a few oohs and aahs.

Diane: I don't do oohs and aahs...unless it's "Baby Love" or "Aint No Mountain High Enough", both of which I sing lead on.

Mary: Fine. How about we do "Endless Love"? I'll do Lionel Richie's part."

I’m guessing the additional background singers would have supported Mary during any solos, giving Diana a chance to refresh her makeup.
I think Diana was far more comfortable with this format as opposed to a true reunion with Mary & Co. This way she still got to call all the shots, being less likely had Mary been onboard.

[blackguy69]

Are channeling Parnell?

I think songs from Diana's solo career at RTL was because this wasn't a traditional reunion tour. It was quite literally Diana Ross...and special guests, the Supremes. So a mix of cuts from her entire career makes sense. Had Mary and Cindy been on the tour, I find it unlikely, although not impossible, that the show would have been anything other than Supremes songs. I don't know about solos, but I would assume Mary would be given a couple of leads. Of course that would mean Diana would sing backup and I'm not sure how she would have handled the suggestion.

Mary: Okay Cindy, Diane, while I'm singing lead, y'all do the backup.

Diane: No. I don't do backup.

Mary: Oh come on Diane. It's just a few oohs and aahs.

Diane: I don't do oohs and aahs...unless it's "Baby Love" or "Aint No Mountain High Enough", both of which I sing lead on.

Mary: Fine. How about we do "Endless Love"? I'll do Lionel Richie's part."

[marybrewster]

A couple thoughts:

IF Mary had joined the tour, would she have gotten a solo spot? Any speculation what she would have sung? Stoned Love? Can't Take My Eyes? A Song for You? Or maybe The Way We're Were.....in dedication to Flo? Maybe she and Diana would have duetted? AND WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT CINDY? Mary gets a solo, so then does Cindy? Let's face it, Cindy wouldn't have brought the house down like Scherrie.

Speaking of Cindy. We all love her. But what a dumb dumb woman if she let Mary negotiate for her. And shame on Diana for not including her, if ONLY to spite Mary. I bet Cindy shed a lot of tears after the train left the station.

I still contend there was never ever a plan to have Mary join this "reunion". Reunions don't start with one member acquiring a promoter then having said promoter negotiate contracts. It starts with a phone call. Mary could have called Diana. And Diana could have called Mary. But neither did and we got what we got.

[sup_fan]

i think even if it was DMC on stage, they'd probably do a couple Diana solo numbers. mostly because 1) the songs are simply magnificent and 2) DR would have been a significant part of the commercial attraction to attendees.

they wouldn't have done a ton of them. i think Mountain, upside down. maybe I'm coming out or maybe The Boss but that last one is a stretch IMO.

in my Perfect World scenario, ALL of the ladies would have joined the tour. of course DMC would have done the bulk of it but there would have been segments for the 70 line ups too. and during those, Diana would exit the stage. just like when Diana did a solo number or two, the others would go back stage. i don't see it being a problem as the tour is highlight the major history of the group. yes i know, i know. DR solo career is technically not part of the group's history. but i think songs like Mountain and Upside Down are simply too popular to not include.

[jim aka jtigre99]

If this was intended as a Diana Ross solo tour that was going to have extended Supremes songs that morphed into talks of a reunion tour which were especially popular at that time, so be it. Diana was planning a tour, so it would be her to reach out to Mary and Cindy and TALK about it. Not just a phone call to say have you heard the rumors and talk to the promoters to negotiate.
I don't think Diana had any intentions of a reunion. I think she realized that Mary was going to stand up for herself and stand up to her and she didn't like that. If Ross was going to have "all of the Supremes" there than how much would that have cost? She knew of the FLOs and knew they were doing a good job in their concerts. Scherrie and Lynda were wonderful singers, something Mary knew when she chose them and hired them to become Supremes in the 1970's.
I think Diana thought it would create publicity, that Mary would be looked at as being difficult and Diana would have actual former Supremes with her who were quite talented. The fact that once Mary was dropped because she negotiated that Cindy was also unceremoniously dropped showed that Diana was not just trying to show Mary as difficult. The fact that at no time were Jean or Susaye in the mix of these concerts showed that there was no actual plan to have all of them. That was more publicity to showcase Mary as difficult. Instead it showed Diana was equally as difficult and her "it was the promoters" stance didn't really ring true, it was sort of hollow.
I also never liked how the press made Scherrie and Lynda as sub-Supremes, as nobodies. That wasn't true. their presence instead of Mary & Cindy made it no reunion. In any group there are the bigger stars and Diana was a superstar but once you have a reunion with former bandmates, each one's role in a reunion would need to be respected and highlighted.
As far as a solo for Mary, perhaps dedicating a song to Flo such as I Am Changing or Don't Let My Teardrops Bother you would have been a very touching moment in a reunion or duetting with Diana singing Missing You.

[Boogiedown]

watching this thing again, this show on youtube .....going back and forth in my mind on how this would have played with the actual real fake Supremes up there....

I think the psyche for Mary may not have been good to be relegated to the back spending 80% of the night twenty feet apart from each other. Seems a bit lonely and secondary. The Supremes never did big stage shows like this ...am I right. Their times were when the stages were more intimate....super clubs ...
Watching Diana suck all the air out of the room ,while she swayed, could Mary support that, is that all she brought to the table ...

Yet really what choice would she have had?


Then I'm also thinking that Mary so loved being a Supreme that her very being would be consumed by the wonderfulness of that long ago feeling and it would all come back to her and she may feel spectacular.


The show is edited , but does Diana ever introduce who in the heck she's on stage with?? Or was it just as one line in the wind up??

Ross says the word "Supremes " ONCE [I believe] and even it was in the context of "Diana Ross and the Supremes"....
In the footage there is a segment about love , but not about love of those songs, or Motown, or The Supremes.

The show is lacking in the "us" dept. It really is a Diana Ross show featuring some backup .... No wonder they wanted to keep Mary out of the planning.

Boy those 60s years must have been miserable times for Miss Ross ....

[jobeterob]

In 1968, the Supremes were in Vancouver at the Pacific Coliseum - seating I believe 18000 people. So they did those shows at a time.

In the posts prior to Boogiedown, there are other suggestions that possibility neither Mary or Diana really wanted this; or neither wanted what the other wanted and the whole thing was never going to work no matter what.

Diana would have gone on with her tour - a solo for each of the girls - like Lynda and Scherrie did. And what would Mary have done for a solo. And could Mary have been happy enough in the background with one solo as "one of the girls"?

It's probably true; they'd have had to have a lengthy "sit down" and see if they really wanted it. And when you have promoters working it out, it likely mean a "no go".

[Circa 1824]

Neither D, M, or C are Einsteins. RTL proved this. Which of the three is the dumbest? Diana Ross

love her voice, but the brain is tiny.

[jobeterob]

Neither D, M, or C are Einsteins. RTL proved this. Which of the three is the dumbest? Diana Ross

love her voice, but the brain is tiny.

Spreading love and positivity; “I never speak in defence of anything; I’ve had a blessed life, can you feel the love?”

Spelling is even a rougher challenge.

[Boogiedown]

so what was the big hoopla about Diana planning a concert tour then anyway??? Why all the involvement of the promoters, and negotiators, and contractors, and lawyers, and rumors ....

She hadn't had a hit in years so had she also not been on the road for years ?? Was her performing again in of itself big news?

[sup_fan]

so what was the big hoopla about Diana planning a concert tour then anyway??? Why all the involvement of the promoters, and negotiators, and contractors, and lawyers, and rumors ....

She hadn't had a hit in years so had she also not been on the road for years ?? Was her performing again in of itself big news?

from what i read it went this way:

diana was going to tour in 00 to promote EDIAND and i think much of the tour was planned for europe. she had a Top 10 hit in UK from this album so it made sense, plus her Europe track record was quite strong.

in planning that tour, someone suggested that instead of a Sups medley, what about doing something different like an extended section where you performed full-length versions of the songs. and they were orchestrated and produced to sound much more like the originals

then what if it was a sups reunion with M and C? maybe just for that short European tour

then what if, since it's the Millenium, it was a bigger, longer sups tour

etc, etc,

[Boogiedown]

SUP:
someone suggested that instead of a Sups medley, what about doing something different like an extended section where you performed full-length versions of the songs.

Oh that darned Rhonda !!!!

[Spreadinglove21]

If either Every Day is a new day album and/or Until We Meet Again single had been a huge hit like Cher's Believe, Diana would never have considered RTL/Supremes reunion as she didn't need to resort to try to regain a major spotlight.

[Ollie9]

At the end of the day, i just wish the tour had kicked off in Europe with lower ticket prices. They could have cut expenditure by ditching the concept of additional backup singers and dancers. It’s then likely the tour would have been a huge success, finally wrapping up in the USA. A live album and dvd might also have been likely.
A reunion with Mary for a major tour was never going to work for so many reasons, something i thought from the moment i heard of RTL.
I guess the lure of making big money was to much to resist.

[sup_fan]

At the end of the day, i just wish the tour had kicked off in Europe with lower ticket prices. They could have cut expenditure by ditching the concept of additional backup singers and dancers. It’s then likely the tour would have been a huge success, finally wrapping up in the USA. A live album and dvd might also have been likely.
A reunion with Mary for a major tour was never going to work for so many reasons, something i thought from the moment i heard of RTL.
I guess the lure of making big money was to much to resist.

i agree - i think Europe was the best area to launch the tour and then allow it's success help generate more excitement in the US

EDIAND is a strong album IMO and from what i understand, her personal problems and the riff with Motown really prevented anyone from having any interest in promoting this lp or the singles. without any real effort, she scored a Top 10 hit in the UK so if she had been behind it, i think the idea of touring and promoting it would have been her first priority

she had mentioned supposedly once to S and L after seeing their show that it would be fun to tour together some time. maybe if, in Europe, it was positioned THAT way, it would have worked better. the tour would have still been to promote EDIAND but then maybe in the middle, as a surprise and for fun, the FLOs join her for the Sup section. they're positioned and billed as the FLO's and introduced that way. this would have eliminated any "reunion" idea and probably have helped S and L a lot too

[Boogiedown]

A reunion with Mary for a major tour was never going to work for so many reasons, something i thought from the moment i heard of RTL.
I guess the lure of making big money was to much to resist.

If Diana's motivation were to actually pay homage to the Supremes , and it was in her heart to recapture at some level those days ....what a beautiful thing that she cared that much about her beloved Supremes sisters that she would even put in her own money to make it happen. But that was not what was at the heart of this at all.

Kind of blatant :
partial songlist

• Touch Me in the Morning" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "I'm Coming Out" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Love Hangover" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Endless Love" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Theme from Mahogany [[Do You Know Where You're Going To)" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Up the Ladder to the Roof" [[Lynda Laurence solo - select shows)
• "Stoned Love" [[Scherrie Payne solo - select shows)
• "Somewhere" [[select shows)
• "Reach Out I'll Be There"
• "Money"
• "I Will Survive"

was MONEY ever a part of their routine ?? Why would they go out of their way to perform such a pointless song as it pertains to the repertoire of The Supremes ???

[reese]

If Diana's motivation were to actually pay homage to the Supremes , and it was in her heart to recapture at some level those days ....what a beautiful thing that she cared that much about her beloved Supremes sisters that she would even put in her own money to make it happen. But that was not what was at the heart of this at all.

Kind of blatant :
partial songlist

• Touch Me in the Morning" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "I'm Coming Out" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Love Hangover" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Endless Love" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Theme from Mahogany [[Do You Know Where You're Going To)" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" [[Diana Ross solo)
• "Up the Ladder to the Roof" [[Lynda Laurence solo - select shows)
• "Stoned Love" [[Scherrie Payne solo - select shows)
• "Somewhere" [[select shows)
• "Reach Out I'll Be There"
• "Money"
• "I Will Survive"

was MONEY ever a part of their routine ?? Why would they go out of their way to perform such a pointless song as it pertains to the repertoire of The Supremes ???

I don't think MONEY was a part of the Supremes' stage act. But the original trio did record it on their first #1 album, A GO GO. I also think Diana was doing it as a tribute to its co-writer, Berry.

1999/2000 was a truly bad time for Diana. Her marriage faltered. Then there was the incident at Heathrow. I think she was also dealing with menopause as well. When the idea of a expanded Supremes segment was brought to her, I do truly think that Diana meant to pay homage to the group. I also believe that her even thinking about working with Mary again [after two books and years of less than flattering interviews] was her way of extending an olive branch. It was her way of going about the reunion that was incorrect, IMO.

Myself, I think the set list could have done without songs from Diana's solo years. It might have even been fun to see Diana doing STONED LOVE or UP THE LADDER or even FLOY JOY with Scherrie and Lynda. But without Mary and Cindy on board, no matter the cost or where the tour started, I think there would have always been a negative cloud over it.

[Boogiedown]

I don't think MONEY was a part of the Supremes' stage act. But the original trio did record it on their first #1 album, A GO GO. I also think Diana was doing it as a tribute to its co-writer, Berry.
Strikes me as an odd choice for a tribute to your long time lover. She did "it" for the money?? Is that the point?
There are other Berry Gordy songs that might be fitting. How about I LOVE THE WAY YOU LOVE, a nice sentiment [if true] and a known Top 10 hit for Marv Johnson...... and suits her endless "love" message.
1999/2000 was a truly bad time for Diana. Her marriage faltered. Then there was the incident at Heathrow. I think she was also dealing with menopause as well. When the idea of a expanded Supremes segment was brought to her, I do truly think that Diana meant to pay homage to the group. I also believe that her even thinking about working with Mary again [after two books and years of less than flattering interviews] was her way of extending an olive branch. It was her way of going about the reunion that was incorrect, IMO. I think you give Diana too much credit as to her motives , but I do see she was hitting a desperation low about then as you lay out.

Myself, I think the set list could have done without songs from Diana's solo years. It might have even been fun to see Diana doing STONED LOVE or UP THE LADDER or even FLOY JOY with Scherrie and Lynda. Wow wouldn't that have been something. But without Mary and Cindy on board, no matter the cost or where the tour started, I think there would have always been a negative cloud over it. Yet she went for it. cue up: "MONEY THAT'S WHAT I WANT"

___________________________

[sup_fan]

while i agree Money might not be the most obvious choice of song for a Supremes tour, it is a very famous song and one that really symbolizes Early Motown. it could be that Diana and the Director would be looking through options to see what fits and provides the right vibe for a certain part of the show. Again, if they were trying to highlight the really early days of the girls' time at motown, maybe a Miracles tune? but frankly Shop Around or Money would be the two most well know and obvious ones.

[Boogiedown]

I'm not against the honesty of the lyrics.

Money that's what she wants ....pretty blunt and not much there to debate imo.

[Spreadinglove21]

Maybe after the interviews Mary gave about not being offered same amount as Diana, Diana decided to put the song Money into the show as an in your face response to Mary's shenanigans?

[Ollie9]

i agree - i think Europe was the best area to launch the tour and then allow it's success help generate more excitement in the US

EDIAND is a strong album IMO and from what i understand, her personal problems and the riff with Motown really prevented anyone from having any interest in promoting this lp or the singles. without any real effort, she scored a Top 10 hit in the UK so if she had been behind it, i think the idea of touring and promoting it would have been her first priority

she had mentioned supposedly once to S and L after seeing their show that it would be fun to tour together some time. maybe if, in Europe, it was positioned THAT way, it would have worked better. the tour would have still been to promote EDIAND but then maybe in the middle, as a surprise and for fun, the FLOs join her for the Sup section. they're positioned and billed as the FLO's and introduced that way. this would have eliminated any "reunion" idea and probably have helped S and L a lot too

That would also mean Scherrie and Lynda getting paid a fraction of what they did, being left to kick their heels backstage for a longer time while Diana performed her hits as well as songs from “EDIAND”.
The tour would also be minus the massive publicity this non-reunion generated.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I really enjoyed EDIAND and it wouldn't have been a major success ala Cher and Believe, it still should have garnered better numbers than it did. I think there was enough blame to go around for RTL. I don't think Mary should have spoken in the press about the pay inequities, but I also don't think she thought she should be paid exactly what Diana would get. Still, if Mary thought she was only getting 10% of what Diana was along with no input it certainly would feel very degrading.
Still after 14 years since Dreamgirl, I am sure Diana was harboring resentment and distrust so it was surprising she would reunite with Mary at all. I am only guessing but I think she may have used the non-reunion for publicity and had Scherrie and Lynda in her back pocket the whole time. Still seemed odd she could move on so quickly for replacements.
Still around 2000, lots of bands were reuniting so that kind of publicity was very big at the time. I honestly feel that Diana never really intended to have a reunion with Mary. I think Mary was hurt and the results of not being contacted early, having no input and getting 10% of what Diana was [[if that is what she was told) then Diana gave Mary a disgruntled group member who won't reunite for the music vibe and unfortunately Mary ran with it.
I don't think Diana would want to start in Europe. She was looking for publicity and big money. Had she started in Europe, the entertainment industry in the States would not really pay much attention especially with 2 Supremes that Diana never worked with or that were as recognizable in the States as Mary and Cindy were.
This was not thought out properly and that is one reason why it didn't work.

[Ollie9]

I really enjoyed EDIAND and it wouldn't have been a major success ala Cher and Believe, it still should have garnered better numbers than it did. I think there was enough blame to go around for RTL. I don't think Mary should have spoken in the press about the pay inequities, but I also don't think she thought she should be paid exactly what Diana would get. Still, if Mary thought she was only getting 10% of what Diana was along with no input it certainly would feel very degrading.
Still after 14 years since Dreamgirl, I am sure Diana was harboring resentment and distrust so it was surprising she would reunite with Mary at all. I am only guessing but I think she may have used the non-reunion for publicity and had Scherrie and Lynda in her back pocket the whole time. Still seemed odd she could move on so quickly for replacements.
Still around 2000, lots of bands were reuniting so that kind of publicity was very big at the time. I honestly feel that Diana never really intended to have a reunion with Mary. I think Mary was hurt and the results of not being contacted early, having no input and getting 10% of what Diana was [[if that is what she was told) then Diana gave Mary a disgruntled group member who won't reunite for the music vibe and unfortunately Mary ran with it.
I don't think Diana would want to start in Europe. She was looking for publicity and big money. Had she started in Europe, the entertainment industry in the States would not really pay much attention especially with 2 Supremes that Diana never worked with or that were as recognizable in the States as Mary and Cindy were.
This was not thought out properly and that is one reason why it didn't work.

If Diana never truly intended a reunion with Mary then her actions were shameful, being a slur on the legacy of the Supremes.

[RanRan79]

RTL may very well have been doomed from the start. Let's be real: this reunion was the invention of someone else, someone who probably saw dollar signs with no regard for any of the Supremes, including Diana.

RTL works if it had been something Diana and Mary came up with together. I don't think Diana would have ever reached out to Mary about it, so this would have had to be Mary calling Diana up and initiating the heart to heart. They were both dealing with a lot. In recent years Mary had buried her son and her mother. Diana's brother was murdered and her marriage was failing. They needed a pick me up. The tour, claiming their legacy, recapturing their youth, this could have been a much needed emotional uplift. Squaring away the past, forging a new future, remembering how much fun they had forming the Supremes, it could have morphed into a successful tour, maybe even the first of a few over the years.

But in reality, I don't think either lady was in the right frame of mind to deal with any of this. And the presence of outside business people just made the situation worse.

[Boogiedown]

Maybe after the interviews Mary gave about not being offered same amount as Diana, Diana decided to put the song Money into the show as an in your face response to Mary's shenanigans?

Aha !!! I do believe you have it exactly right Spreading!

That song choice sticks out like a sore thumb. There's no reason for it to be included at all. This wasn't a Motown review show. [I don't think Motown even gets mentioned once.]

Lynda nor Scherrie would've requested to have it in there.
Its not a Ross favorite: she never performed it before and has never performed it since.
.

Diana sang that song about wanting money on this particular tour, for one specific reason. Or should I say for one specific person. That totally explains it being there .

[jobeterob]

Money was part of the Motown medley on An Evening With Diana Ross

[daviddh]

Cindy was no longer in show business,so therefore, she did not have a management team. Therefore ,Marys team negotiated for her.
Again, if the supremes were men, they would have been paid .
Many groups ,such as eagles,Fleetwood Mac were all paid equally.
But from the beginning ,Diana has always been treated better over the other ladies.nothing new

[jobeterob]

I would also question what kind of team Mary had; she been searching for a hit for more than 20 years as well as searching for a record deal. She may have had a manager bit probably not a team. It really meant this had to have personal involvement early on. When it starts out as your tour, maybe there is no thought to connect early on because it’s “your” tour

[jim aka jtigre99]

I believe Mary always had her publicist Jay with her. I think in one book she thanked someone named Chip for "taking a chance on managing me" and I think she also had someone named Duryea managing her after that. Not sure who she had in 2000. I know she was using her daughter during the pandemic. Whoever she had through the years, surely they were not at the level of Motown or who was behind Diana. Still, she did seem to manage to do well for herself through the years but a better management team may have been able to take her further. She certainly deserved it.

[jobeterob]

I believe Mary always had her publicist Jay with her. I think in one book she thanked someone named Chip for "taking a chance on managing me" and I think she also had someone named Duryea managing her after that. Not sure who she had in 2000. I know she was using her daughter during the pandemic. Whoever she had through the years, surely they were not at the level of Motown or who was behind Diana. Still, she did seem to manage to do well for herself through the years but a better management team may have been able to take her further. She certainly deserved it.

This makes sense.

This was just another of the parts that was not meshing and contributed to things not working.

I agree with all the posters that have said this just wasn’t meant to be, nobody’s heart was in it - it was just a mess in every respect.

[RanRan79]

Again, if the supremes were men, they would have been paid .
Many groups ,such as eagles,Fleetwood Mac were all paid equally.
But from the beginning ,Diana has always been treated better over the other ladies.nothing new

I think this is a valid issue to wonder about. What role, if any, did gender play in the way the promoters approached the issue of payment? Keep in mind, one of the things that sets the Supremes apart from other groups/bands is that Diana Ross had a mega successful solo career apart from the Supremes, while Mary and Cindy did not. So I figure the pay was always going to be off balance, right or wrong, whether Diana invested in the tour or not. However, I do ponder how Mary and Cindy would have been handled by the promoters if they were named Otis and Melvin.

[RanRan79]

I would also question what kind of team Mary had; she been searching for a hit for more than 20 years as well as searching for a record deal. She may have had a manager bit probably not a team. It really meant this had to have personal involvement early on. When it starts out as your tour, maybe there is no thought to connect early on because it’s “your” tour

Her management sucked, at least during the 1980s. To me it's utterly ridiculous that with the success of Dreamgirl Mary didn't have a record deal on its heels. Even the smallest label would have been willing to take a chance on turning Mary's book and the publicity surrounding it into potential hit singles and an album, or the very least decent selling ones.

She did do the demos at Atlantic around 1987 but no one seems to have any information on the details and Mary doesn't mention them in her second book. Who wrote them? Who produced them? Were they intended for a potential Mary project or did she do someone a favor and sing their demos? Did Atlantic hear them and go "nope"? Nobody knows. Marv once claimed that Mary and Atlantic couldn't come to an agreement. That's the closest I've come to any information about Mary and the Atlantic demos. But it was Marv, so..........

[reese]

I think this is a valid issue to wonder about. What role, if any, did gender play in the way the promoters approached the issue of payment? Keep in mind, one of the things that sets the Supremes apart from other groups/bands is that Diana Ross had a mega successful solo career apart from the Supremes, while Mary and Cindy did not. So I figure the pay was always going to be off balance, right or wrong, whether Diana invested in the tour or not. However, I do ponder how Mary and Cindy would have been handled by the promoters if they were named Otis and Melvin.

Gender could very well have been a issue but I still think the biggest problem was that there was never a come together moment with Diana and Mary.

It would be interesting to know how other reunions got off the ground. I'm not familiar with the inner workings of Fleetwood Mac or the Eagles so I have no idea of what drama might have existed.

In his book, Otis Williams of the Tempts mentioned that there had been an earlier attempt at a reunion in the late 70s, headed by Kenny Gamble. The guys [David, Eddie, Dennis, Otis, and Melvin] flew into Philly to discuss it but it didn't work out. The eventual 1982 reunion was spearheaded by promoter Jimmy Bishop. Otis doesn't go into financial terms but did mention that they invited David and Eddie to Lake Tahoe to discuss the idea before they all agreed. This time, it would also include Richard and Glenn.

[Ollie9]

Gender could very well have been a issue but I still think the biggest problem was that there was never a come together moment with Diana and Mary.

It would be interesting to know how other reunions got off the ground. I'm not familiar with the inner workings of Fleetwood Mac or the Eagles so I have no idea of what drama might have existed.

In his book, Otis Williams of the Tempts mentioned that there had been an earlier attempt at a reunion in the late 70s, headed by Kenny Gamble. The guys [David, Eddie, Dennis, Otis, and Melvin] flew into Philly to discuss it but it didn't work out. The eventual 1982 reunion was spearheaded by promoter Jimmy Bishop. Otis doesn't go into financial terms but did mention that they invited David and Eddie to Lake Tahoe to discuss the idea before they all agreed. This time, it would also include Richard and Glenn.

The difference being when comparing the Tempt’s with the Supremes is that Diana was an international superstar in her own right.
You also had the situation where Mary had fought so hard to use the name Supremes, while thirty years after leaving Diana was handed it on a plate.
There must have been so many mixed emotions running through Mary’s head upon receiving a call from Diana, enquiring if she would like to join her tour as a member of the Supremes.

[midnightman]

so what was the big hoopla about Diana planning a concert tour then anyway??? Why all the involvement of the promoters, and negotiators, and contractors, and lawyers, and rumors ....

She hadn't had a hit in years so had she also not been on the road for years ?? Was her performing again in of itself big news?

I understood it as Diana was going to tour for EDIAND in Europe but someone suggested to have a Supremes reunion tour and it built on there. I don't know how though because this was late 1999, early 2000. I think I read about the plans of a reunion tour in one of those Entertainment Weekly issues. I think either February or March was when Mary made it public about her refusing to tour because she felt she was being shortchanged by Diana and the promoters. I do remember Mary's complaints making MAJOR NEWS. There was a whole JET cover story about it and everything and she went on every talk show discussing it. It just made Diana the bad guy. I actually remember when she came out with Scherrie and Lynda during her VH1 Divas tribute concert. I'm 16 years old when this occurred. I only knew of four Supremes: Diana, Florence, Mary and Cindy [[2000 was oddly the year I learned of Betty McGlown and Barbara Martin). So I'm like "who ARE they???" So that had me upset that she couldn't work it out with Mary and Cindy and I thought "what a BUMMER." You know?

Also for that claim about the Supremes doing these arena type shows, it wasn't often. Most Motown acts [[and most acts in general, let's be honest) at the time weren't what you called "stadium acts". The "big time" was places like the Apollo and Radio City Music Hall and Vegas casinos. Not Shea Stadium where the Beatles toured [[ironically Brenda Holloway was the first Motown star to perform at a stadium IIRC when she opened for them at the stadium). And that was actually historic because it was the first time a pop act had performed at such a big venue. I don't think there was such a thing as a stadium act or an arena act until the late 60s when the Rolling Stones pretty much defined the term. They had chances to do stadiums [[not just the Supremes but other Motown acts; Marvin Gaye performed at a few stadium shows when there were pop music festivals but that's as far as that went; Gordy for example refused to put Stevie Wonder on Woodstock and Monterey Pop like he was supposed to despite the fact he was probably the label's most hippest act).

The Supremes, despite all of their huge success, never performed at many arenas and if they did, it was often, as I said, as part of a festival or something. They'd lead the festival but it was still them leading a whole bunch of acts [[package tours). So no, this was the first time they had done a full-fledged arena tour.

I don't even think Diana did full-fledged arena tours either. She performed at arenas, and occasionally the big stadium every now and then, but she preferred those "in the round" type of shows and shows where she could go into the audience [[which is why she loved performing at Vegas, the Boardwalk at Atlantic City and Radio City Music Hall in Manhattan). She did some of her entrances sometimes where she'd walk out being greeted by people amidst heavy security.

So her doing a big time arena show was also something completely foreign to her. It wasn't like she was Whitney Houston, who could headline a stadium and arena show at the time, or Madonna or Janet Jackson and definitely not Tina Turner, arguably the first female act to be an arena/stadium headliner to begin with [[Madonna and Whitney joined her at the same time - 1985/1986 - so those three were pretty trailblazing in that regard). If they probably had stuck to the shows where they played just the prestigious halls and such, they could've pulled it off. But by then there was so much controversy and scandal that many stayed away.

More on a "if the original Supremes aren't there [[though Cindy wasn't an "original", she still was considered an integral member), I'm not coming, I don't care if it is Diana Ross."

Diana Ross hadn't had a hit record in 15 years and this incident was pretty much the icing on the cake for many former fans. It was simply a disaster.

[midnightman]

The difference being when comparing the Tempt’s with the Supremes is that Diana was an international superstar in her own right.
You also had the situation where Mary had fought so hard to use the name Supremes, while thirty years after leaving Diana was handed it on a plate.
There must have been so many mixed emotions running through Mary’s head upon receiving a call from Diana, enquiring if she would like to join her tour as a member of the Supremes.

Imagine being in Mary's shoes at the time and getting that call. I'm not surprised she called with a bit of an attitude. Diana had always been the more business-minded of the original Supremes and probably couldn't understand why Mary and Flo [[and later Cindy, I imagine) felt the way they did and still didn't understand it [[hence the "I could've offered Mary the moon and she would've had an issue!" rant on ABC). You have a history of two women who were at one point the best of friends, then they weren't so friendly anymore and just acquainted and then by Motown 25, almost for sure bitter enemies. And yes there were times Diana and Mary would occasionally reach out to one another [[like when Mary and her son had that accident that caused the son to die and Diana called her) but yeah with not much communication and many bitter memories, is it any surprise they couldn't work it out?

Plus as you said, Diana had become the SUPERSTAR so yeah it was bound to fail.

[midnightman]

RTL may very well have been doomed from the start. Let's be real: this reunion was the invention of someone else, someone who probably saw dollar signs with no regard for any of the Supremes, including Diana.

RTL works if it had been something Diana and Mary came up with together. I don't think Diana would have ever reached out to Mary about it, so this would have had to be Mary calling Diana up and initiating the heart to heart. They were both dealing with a lot. In recent years Mary had buried her son and her mother. Diana's brother was murdered and her marriage was failing. They needed a pick me up. The tour, claiming their legacy, recapturing their youth, this could have been a much needed emotional uplift. Squaring away the past, forging a new future, remembering how much fun they had forming the Supremes, it could have morphed into a successful tour, maybe even the first of a few over the years.

But in reality, I don't think either lady was in the right frame of mind to deal with any of this. And the presence of outside business people just made the situation worse.

Just to add: Diana was still in hot water over the incident of her and the security lady at Heathrow, her marriage to Arne Naess had fallen apart [[that spring, Arne announced they were divorcing in Norway), her second stint at Motown was a big humongous flop. So nothing was going right in Diana's life. The only thing keeping her up at the time was her children. By comparison, Mary was probably doing okay, not great, but okay. It should've never happened. It made a bad situation worse for Diana to the point few thought she'd ever recover from.

[midnightman]

If Diana never truly intended a reunion with Mary then her actions were shameful, being a slur on the legacy of the Supremes.

Right. Like why go with it if your heart was never in it? She could've easily told them "no I want to tour for my new album". So I don't get it.

[reese]

I don't even think Diana did full-fledged arena tours either. She performed at arenas, and occasionally the big stadium every now and then, but she preferred those "in the round" type of shows and shows where she could go into the audience [[which is why she loved performing at Vegas, the Boardwalk at Atlantic City and Radio City Music Hall in Manhattan). She did some of her entrances sometimes where she'd walk out being greeted by people amidst heavy security.

So her doing a big time arena show was also something completely foreign to her.

Many of Diana's US tours after she left Motown were based in arenas. I would say this period lasted from 1982-1991. I saw her many times during those years and with one exception, it was always in a sports arena or a 15,000 seat outside ampitheater.

It was after her 1991 tour was reported in Billboard as being one that promoters lost money on that she went back to the mid-sized halls. Again, I'm speaking of the US. Overseas, she continued playing arenas regularly.

That's why I was really surprised when the venues booked for RTL were arenas. Diana wasn't playing those in the US anymore and the addition of Scherrie and Lynda wasn't going to increase attendance. I think some cities like Philly and NYC did well but otherwise, the venues were too big for Diana's current drawing power.

[Spreadinglove21]

Perhaps a reason why she agreed to do a Supremes tour was a chance to get back to playing arenas in the US and make the money? She could no longer do so as a solo by the mid to late 90s. Supremes was her card back to arenas. But with a catch...it had to be a reunion tour. That's what can sell due to nostalgia. So why the general public may not have known the names of who Diana Ross sang with at time she left the Supremes, the general public would not buy into a Diana Ross/Supremes arena tour unless it was a real reunion.

And that's where Cindy and Mary had strenght in terms of negotiation. Sure Cindy could have signed on on her own, but I think she knew that if Mary was shut out Mary was not going to take it lying down and she would go to the media. And that's what Mary did.

So message got out that Diana was doing a Supremes tour but it wasn't a reunion and that she was touring with women she never sang with before. It made Diana Ross look like she was pulling a con on the ticket buying public and played into the negative image as a self centered diva bitch.

Once negotiations with Mary broke down that should have been the end of any Diana Ross Supremes tour in 2000. Plans should have been scaled back to a solo Every Day is a New Day tour--sure do an extended Supremes segment, hire the FLOS [[including perhaps Freddie Poole) to sing background, but don't tour as Diana Ross and the Supremes. That's a reunion tour billing. And as we know Diana Ross and the Supremes Return to Love tour turned out to be what it was.

[jobeterob]

Many of Diana's US tours after she left Motown were based in arenas. I would say this period lasted from 1982-1991. I saw her many times during those years and with one exception, it was always in a sports arena or a 15,000 seat outside ampitheater.

It was after her 1991 tour was reported in Billboard as being one that promoters lost money on that she went back to the mid-sized halls. Again, I'm speaking of the US. Overseas, she continued playing arenas regularly.

That's why I was really surprised when the venues booked for RTL were arenas. Diana wasn't playing those in the US anymore and the addition of Scherrie and Lynda wasn't going to increase attendance. I think some cities like Philly and NYC did well but otherwise, the venues were too big for Diana's current drawing power.

I only ever saw Diana in Arenas - 1968 and 1982.

But I agree that it may have been the wrong size venue especially when associated with very high ticket prices; and even a real reunion with the people who were Supremes with her would likely have not been enough to make this go off with a bang.

Going to Europe first would have been a good idea.

I also believe Diana may have thought she could re-kindle the old crowds with a reunion but I think that may have been wishful thinking by 2000. She was crowding 60 - not really a teen draw.

Also I know she talked about getting "big headed" for a while - I think she refers to the time around Motown 25 and Central Park as a time when she may have thought she was too special. Given the kind of career she had, that feeling may not have been entirely gone by the time of RTL.

[vgalindo]

Many of Diana's US tours after she left Motown were based in arenas. I would say this period lasted from 1982-1991. I saw her many times during those years and with one exception, it was always in a sports arena or a 15,000 seat outside ampitheater.

It was after her 1991 tour was reported in Billboard as being one that promoters lost money on that she went back to the mid-sized halls. Again, I'm speaking of the US. Overseas, she continued playing arenas regularly.

That's why I was really surprised when the venues booked for RTL were arenas. Diana wasn't playing those in the US anymore and the addition of Scherrie and Lynda wasn't going to increase attendance. I think some cities like Philly and NYC did well but otherwise, the venues were too big for Diana's current drawing power.

So very true. I saw Diana throughout the entire 80s in large Arenas.

[Albator]

From a rational point of view, for Diana, a reunion with the Supremes was the last card to try to generate press attention and attract more audiences than during the 90s.
Once that didn't work, I'm amazed that the promoters invested themselves in this financial disaster we all saw coming.

Maybe in her mind she honestly thought she wanted to honour the music, but I doubt. She just can't resist the opportunity to big show, once again.

[Ollie9]

Diana has said she called BG, who advised her to go ahead if it was something she really wanted to do. He clearly wasn’t seeing the big picture or thinking of the other two women who might, or as in this case not be involved.
”That’s What Friends Are For”.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think Diana really underestimated Mary in terms of who she was by 2000. She had managed to continue on despite Motown's indifference in the 1970's, dealing with losing Florence, dealing with an abusive marriage, dealing with her son's death. She was no longer the person who couldn't make decisions and went along with things after all of these adversities. I think Diana thought they would just be happy to go along with whatever she wanted. I also think since she had the FLOs in her back pocket, she really never seriously thought that it would be a reunion with Mary and Cindy. Yes, everyone loved Diana Ross but everyone also loved the Supremes. And Mary was a huge part of that, despite what anyone may say or think.

[reese]

Diana has said she called BG, who advised her to go ahead if it was something she really wanted to do. He clearly wasn’t seeing the big picture or thinking of the other two women who might, or as in this case not be involved.
”That’s What Friends Are For”.

I remember reading that and wondering what was Berry smoking that day? I would have never advised Diana to go on a Supremes tour without Mary and Cindy.

That said, I also recall reading that Berry actually tried to intervene and help get Mary and Cindy involved.