Drats

[jim aka jtigre99]

I have thought about what I wanted to say and how I was going to post this and I am sure I will make some lapses and errors but still this was my thoughts. The original Supremes were 3 people who joined together and worked together to achieve musical success. All three were capable of singing leads . Flo excelled on the more soulful Etta James type songs, Mary was her best singing ballads and Diana was better on the lighter pop songs. They were 3 people who together started from the bottom and worked hard to achieve success.

As lead singer, Diana was in a position to be the most recognizable face and voice yet initially all 3 were recognized as each contributed something special to the group-Diana with her exotic looks and voice,Florence with down to earth demeanor tinged with a playful smile or look and Mary with her breathtaking beauty,poise and movement.

Vocally, had it only been Diana and Florence without Mary, they would have not had their anchor to blend and smooth their sound. But with recognition and ambition, came turmoil. Of course, Mary and Florence loved Diana but surely they needed to communicate better once Diana was so upfront with Berry as her mentor. Diana was aggressive and self assured but she was also insecure or she would have gone solo as soon as 1966 or when Florence left. I think she felt she needed the group to launch her until she was ready.

Mary had been with her since the beginning so naturally she had a different viewpoint than Cindy. She saw Diana's aggressiveness, Berry's attention and the group she loved dissolving when Florence left. If she had Flo's demeanor she would have just left, too. Cindy entered when Diana's name was out front. Unlike Mary, she wasn't there to see it as a group group, she saw it as Diana's group. She didn't have the experiences that Mary and Florence had with Diana so she saw it so differently. That is why Cindy came in, blended in and did what she was told. Clearly, she didn't have the stake that Mary and Flo did with originating the group, she came in and saw an opportunity to hit it much bigger than she ever did with Patti Labelle's group.

Who knows if Cindy disliked some of Diana's aggressiveness but held back.
Who knows if Diana didn't see what was going on with the group but kept apart since she was being groomed by Berry and was under so much pressure that she didn't want her launching pad to implode after Flo left. Who knows how Mary really felt because she would sometimes say things and then retract a bit.

One thing, Diana actually did owe Mary something for her loyalty to the group. Mary allowing herself to be placed even further back in the group as DRATS in many ways was no longer a group but a launching pad of a few years for Diana's solo career. Being the lead singer and focus is one thing but DRATS was another-an opportunity for Diana in ways to be solo yet stay secure in the group setting. Diana as solo in 1970 was a way different venture than Diana as a solo in 1967 would have been.

I think Mary had a way different experience with Diana then any further Supreme would have-Cindy I wrote didn't have that time starting together and building it up together, By the time of Jean it was no longer a group group and Mary stated Jean did grow weary of the constant comparison to Diana. Lynda and Scherrie probably looked at RTL as an opportunity to make money and didn't have the history with Diana that Mary did. Once it became DRATS, the group America fell in love with was no longer the same.

[milven]

There are a number of artists, who, before Making Their Name As Solo Artists In The Music Industry, had risen to prominence as members of popular bands or Vocal Groups.

Here is a list of some of them, and yes, it includes Diana Ross.

https://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00204276.html

To this list can be added, Lionel Ritchie, Smokey, Frankie Valli, Mama Cass, Teddy Pendergrass, Cher, Tina Turner, Frank Sinatra, Jo Stafford, Jackie Wilson, Clyde Mc Phatter, Ben E King, Sam Cooke, and many more. Most of them go on to bigger and better things, but not all of them. It is a gamble to leave a group.

Tony Williams was the lead singer of the number one group of the fifties, THE PLATTERS. He left for a solo career and wound up on the oldies circuit and in local dives. I saw him in one of those local dives. It was so sad. Even though he was the voice of THE PLATTERS, just as Diana was the voice of THE SUPREMES, he couldn't make it as a soloist. He had the voice, but to be a star, you need the whole package, or the support of a star group.

[jobeterob]

As I’ve said more than once, a Universal executive told me 10 or 15 years ago that Diana was effectively gone in 1967 along with Florence and to beware of asking questions for fear of the answers - basically a lot of other people were on the records.

While I believe the Beatles, Beach Boys and Temptations fought more than the Supremes, the whole Supremes history after 1970 is a series of missed opportunities and sadness. No reunions to speak of, fewer awards given later or never, no hits for anyone other than Diana.

There were chances for a hell of a lot more than there was. Nobody wanted it enough.

[Spreadinglove21]

Diana was the reason Berry offered to sign the group as he thought she was money. And if groups were such a commercial commodity at the time he and Motown made the offer to sign them, he would have signed Diana solo and Diana, being the go getter individualist that she is, would have signed and said "See you girls" to Mary, Flo and Barbara.

[Circa 1824]

and Diana was better on the lighter pop songs.

You are now repeating insults from the ever angry, vengeful, and ungrateful Miss Wilson.

First of all, what are "lighter pop songs?" Are Love Child, My World is Empty, Someday We'll Be Together, You Keep me Hanging On, You Can't Hurry Love, Going Down For The Third Time, and every other DRATS hits and album cuts "light pop?”

You are not only insulting Diana Ross, you are also insulting HDH and all the other great writers during the DRATS years. Ross sang virtually every DRATS lead with enviable brilliance, and are still played world-wide. And, the genius composers wrote DRATS songs from every genre.

Funny Girl was "light pop?" Tell that to Streisand and she will have your neck.
Rogers and Hart was "light pop?" hmmmm

Someone has a tin ear.

[REYnoldo Chavez]

Oh dear . Thank for that amazing post. I know what I'll read next time when I can't sleep.

[khansperac]

That hurt my eyes.

[Spreadinglove21]

Many of the posts from the OP of this thread tend to be very long paragraphs and the content of those posts often regurgitates what's found in the books, particularly Mary's books and Call Her Miss Ross.

[Ollie9]

The whole Supremes history after 1970 is a series of missed opportunities and sadness. No reunions to speak of, fewer awards given later or never, no hits for anyone other than Diana.

‘Tis a real pity the Supremes never managed another hit once Diana left. Makes you wonder why they bothered.
I would say Diana herself has had her own share of missed opportunity’s and sadness over the years, but then perhaps i’m being unbiased here......Oops.

[jobucats]

Just a suggestion...When writing a long narrative, it might be best to break it up into paragraphs or sections. Try some spacing. After reading a few sentences, this long passage 'wore' me out so I had to stop reading it.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

‘Tis a real pity the Supremes never managed another hit once Diana left.

Is this tongue in cheek?

Up The Ladder to the Roof [[#6 UK #10 US)
Stoned Love [[#3 UK #7 US)
River Deep Mountain High [[#11 UK #14 US)
Nathan Jones [[#5 UK #16 US)
Floy Joy [[#9 UK #16 US)
Automatically Sunshine [[#10 UK #37 US)


5 Top 10 hits in the UK & 5 Top 20 hits in the US between 1970 & 72 is better than most Motown acts in that time. Diana achieved less - 4 US Top 20 & 5 UK Top 10 hits - in the same timeframe.

[jobeterob]

Oops - I should have said 1972 not 1970 - but thereafter what I said is accurate - a whole bunch of missed opportunities and struggles

[jim aka jtigre99]

WOW! Yes, first off I do have a tendency to ramble on and use stream of consciousness when I post. I don't post here very often because I know my opinions can be quite different than the majority of posters here.
My intent was to think of how and why the group dynamics were different in the original group compared to DRATS. I also pondered on the future groupings relations.
I had no intention of discrediting Miss Ross and her talents in any way. Quite frankly, I prefer her works as a solo artist. I also enjoy the works of the Supremes in the 1970's much more because that is when I became a fan.
If you misread my post because I did it in such a hurry and in a stream of consciousness manner, than so be it. I just ponder things and wanted to express them to like minded individuals but that proved to be my error. Thanks for the feedback.

[sup_fan]

WOW! Yes, first off I do have a tendency to ramble on and use stream of consciousness when I post. I don't post here very often because I know my opinions can be quite different than the majority of posters here.
My intent was to think of how and why the group dynamics were different in the original group compared to DRATS. I also pondered on the future groupings relations.
I had no intention of discrediting Miss Ross and her talents in any way. Quite frankly, I prefer her works as a solo artist. I also enjoy the works of the Supremes in the 1970's much more because that is when I became a fan.
If you misread my post because I did it in such a hurry and in a stream of consciousness manner, than so be it. I just ponder things and wanted to express them to like minded individuals but that proved to be my error. Thanks for the feedback.

i appreciate your post - always interesting to discuss the various points of views and topics.

i think one element we often overlook is the element of time. the girls started at age 15 or so in 1959. florence left in 67 when they were 23/24.

Now how many of us were the same people or still working/playing/hanging out with the same people at age 24 as we did at age 15? kids and young teens might daydream or share fun "what if" ideas and all. but rarely do those hold. the Primettes are a fluke because they sort of did play out their childhood dream. but people grow and change. some [[like Barbara) might quickly decide that childhood dream really isn't what they want. others might decide that later or decide, as they age, their interpretation of that dream evolves.

the growth, change, development and evolution one experiences in their teens and 20s is often much more dramatic than once they're older

[jobucats]

jim aka jtigre99....that was a wonderful post, and I appreciate your perspective. Thank you for breaking it up into sections. I will add my 2 cents worth in giving my opinion regarding Mary. Besides Diana, being upfront and the lead, I considered Mary to be much more intregal to the sound of the Supremes than Florence. Mary's voice, thick in texture, helped to smooth over Diana's often bright sound.

Take "Where Did Our Love Go?" On a scale of 1-10 of the background voices that are audible, Mary's is a 10 and Florence's is a 1. On some versions, I can't even hear Florence at all. Florence did indeed have that blasting 'Etta James' voice which needed to be tamed in the Supremes' recordings. The songs were being written with Diana in mind, rather than for the Supremes themselves, and Florence's voice, imo, didn't quite fit the direction in which Berry was taking the Supremes.

Even in the live performances, Florence's voice often seemed to stick out on the background vocals in volume and in timbre. Her fans loved it when she would 'own the song' and she would 'put Diana Ross in her place' by her powerful voice.

While there are so many recordings in which the blend of Diana, Mary, and Florence really worked, I can see that based on the direction towards where the group was going, Cindy was a good choice, visually, to step in with the exception that her voice, in my opinion, lacked any power to blend with Mary's powerful alto.

All of these ladies worked extremely hard which is evident not only by their recordings and concert & tv appearances; but by the number of photos of the three in situations where they are out in street clothes. Every day, on the different forums, I see never-seen-before pictures of them as a group...all dressed to the nines in their street clothes. Did they ever have times where a camera was not placed in their face?

[sup_fan]

IMO for the Supremes to really work in 1964, you needed the 3 unique, strong and identifiable personalities and girls. all three contributed to the success of the group, even if Diana was the lead. with the explosion of pop groups and singers in the late 50s and early 60s, especially in the girl group genre, you had tons of entities that came and went. were hot for a second and then gone. partly that was due to their talent but also due to the fact these were mostly teens or very young adults. and they just didn't have the stage presence or personality of A STAR. 99% of kids don't.

DMF were different. they had star personas but were still very identifiable. 16 year old girls, whether white or black, all across the US could see themselves or part of themselves in D, M or F. when seeing them onstage, the girls were animated, interesting, eye-catching. plus on the records at the stage, you could hear all 3 voices. on the WDOLG album you heard each on Breathtaking, the 3-part harmonies on Long Gone, Flo's vocals on Long Gone. etc.

while Cindy is an excellent backing vocalist, she doesn't have the same strong personality as Flo. had it been DMC in 1964 i think the group would have still been a huge success but maybe not quite as epic. Cindy would often fade into the background a bit more. she was the "shy and quiet one"

[Ollie9]

Is this tongue in cheek?

Up The Ladder to the Roof [[#6 UK #10 US)
Stoned Love [[#3 UK #7 US)
River Deep Mountain High [[#11 UK #14 US)
Nathan Jones [[#5 UK #16 US)
Floy Joy [[#9 UK #16 US)
Automatically Sunshine [[#10 UK #37 US)


5 Top 10 hits in the UK & 5 Top 20 hits in the US between 1970 & 72 is better than most Motown acts in that time. Diana achieved less - 4 US Top 20 & 5 UK Top 10 hits - in the same timeframe.

Irony be damned.
The public embraced the new Supremes far more readily then a solo Ross. LSTB really was a game changer for Diana.

[reese]

Irony be damned.
The public embraced the new Supremes far more readily then a solo Ross. LSTB really was a game changer for Diana.

Was this more of a US thing when it came to singles? I don't have a chart book in front of me but didn't Diana have four Top 10 UK hits in 1970-1971?

In the US, it seems that Diana did better when it came to albums. On the R&B chart, Diana had four consecutive Top 10 albums before LADY, as opposed to the Supremes who only had two.

[Deepdishus2001]

Was this more of a US thing when it came to singles? I don't have a chart book in front of me but didn't Diana have four Top 10 UK hits in 1970-1971?

In the US, it seems that Diana did better when it came to albums. On the R&B chart, Diana had four consecutive Top 10 albums before LADY, as opposed to the Supremes who only had two.

Three of the four went top 5 for the light pop singer. Ironically, Surrender, the most "soulful" only made it to number ten.

I usually try to stay out of these subjects because they are personal and subjective. Everyone has the tendency to print their opinion as fact and usually out of context, especially when it comes to Diana. For some reason, it is the 70s Supremes fans that have the most caustic comments about Ross. There are as many, if not more, fans that came to Ross in the 70s as to the new Supremes. We have been told about the Saint Diana and evil Mary Diana Ross fans and that is such gaslighting and disingenuous. For every negative comment or push back against the saintly Mary narrative, there are hundreds of comments attacking Ross for everything under the sun. If you somehow don't agree that Ross is responsible for the fall of western civilization, you are tagged with the moronic "Rosser", Diana apologist or suffering from Celebrity worship syndrome. There are plenty here that suffer from Ross Derangement Syndrome.

It is possible to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time. Everything is not binary or either/or. We can say that Ross was difficult to deal with at RCA and that RCA was a horrible label as confirmed by Barry Manilow and Kenny Rogers disenchantment with them. It is OK to say that Mary was intentionally egging on Ross at Motown and Ross was one hundred percent at fault for the push/shove.

It is OK for 70s Supreme and Mary fans to say anything negative about Ross and her voice but apparently Ross fans are not allowed to have an opinion about any of their voices because then you are a crazy "Rosser". We are told this is not a Ross fan site. This is also not a Mary, Flo or 70s Supremes fan site either. Every Ross failure is of her own doing and well deserved and her successes are attributed to luck. As I've seen in multiple threads here, any 70s Supremes failure is because of Diana Ross and/or Berry's need to control/punish her. Clearly fantastical magical thinking. Motown did a far better job of handling the 70s Supremes launch than they did with Diana's. Two lower rung Top 10s for the Supremes are huge smash hits and two top twenty hits are big successes but for Ross and/or DRATS they are deemed failures.

Also, to put it into context, the 70s Supremes were out there promoting their records. Diana was giving birth to 2 children and filming LSTB. Outside of the Diana! TV special and the inaugural tour, she was not visibly out there promoting her records. I honestly believe that the 70s Supremes would have continued to remain successful if Jean had stayed. They would have found a way/path to recover from the Jimmy Webb album and moved forward. Motown was horrible with all their female artists, including Diana. Both Diana and the Supremes would have been far better served with outside management that had more of their interests at heart.

Also, the notion that Diana needed to be Berry's puppet is laughable. As has been previously posted, she was largely responsible for the "Evening with" show that broke box office records at the Palace Theater in NYC at the time and that got her a special Tony award. She effectively took control of her recording career with The Boss and began her most consistent Top 10 and Top 20 pop chart run of her career. We can always debate the merits of the RCA years but, in my opinion, not a fact, Mirror Mirror, Swept Away, Missing You and Chain Reaction stand with any of her first Motown era hits. There are also many wonderful album tracks as well and a whole bunch of clunkers too.

Finally, as someone who was seen Ross at least 15 times since I Love You was released, the majority of fans in attendance are there to see and hear her hits. I don't see a whole lot of 70 and 80 year old fans at her show. The majority of the older fans I see at her concerts appear to be in their late 50s and early 60s like myself. The Supremes songs she sings, are about 25%, if that, of her set list. She could do a whole set of her own songs and selected covers and still sell out places like Radio City Music Hall.

Sorry for the long winded post. 5 years of my own pent up thoughts. I apologize in advance for any grammatical, phrasing errors. Let the flame throwing begin.

[Ollie9]

Was this more of a US thing when it came to singles? I don't have a chart book in front of me but didn't Diana have four Top 10 UK hits in 1970-1971?

In the US, it seems that Diana did better when it came to albums. On the R&B chart, Diana had four consecutive Top 10 albums before LADY, as opposed to the Supremes who only had two.

Definitely more a US thing as regards pop charts. Prior to LSTB, both singles and albums sold better in the UK then in her homeland.
Diana was also no sellout on her concert debut. Remember BG recalling how he had to tear dollar bills in half to fill seats. Not so with the new Supremes.
”Up The Ladder” also charted far higher then “Reach Out And Touch”

[sup_fan]

i think the causticness has emerged more in recent years.

in general starting in 1970, both the Sups and DR were seeing stronger chart activity in the UK than in the US

Ladder - US 10, UK6
Everybody - US 21, UK --
Stoned Love - US 7, UK 3
River - US 14, UK 11
Nathan - US 16, UK 5
You Gotta Have - US 55, UK 25
Floy Joy - US 16, UK 9
Auto Sun - US 37, UK 10

Reach out and touch - US 19, UK 33
Mountain - US 1, UK 6
Remember Me - US 16, UK 7
Reach out i'll be there - US 29, UK --
Surrender - US 38, UK 10
I'm still waiting - US 63, UK 1

and albums too
DR 70 - US 19, UK 14
Everything - US 42, UK 31
Surrender [[called I'm Still Waiting in UK) - US 56, UK 10

the 70s sups didn't chart in the UK with albums except Mag 7 which hit #6!! that could be why there were so many subsequent singles and albums. the pairing worked well in the UK

Mary has stated that the UK fans were less judgmental about the lineup change with Diana. they were willing to accept and enjoy the act based on it's own merits. I agree that LSTB is what helped catapult DR into the mega-stardom. prior to this, both acts were doing pretty much the same. the DR solo albums sold a little better but none of them were super strong sellers in the US.

[Ollie9]

Three of the four went top 5 for the light pop singer. Ironically, Surrender, the most "soulful" only made it to number ten.

I usually try to stay out of these subjects because they are personal and subjective. Everyone has the tendency to print their opinion as fact and usually out of context, especially when it comes to Diana. For some reason, it is the 70s Supremes fans that have the most caustic comments about Ross. There are as many, if not more, fans that came to Ross in the 70s as to the new Supremes. We have been told about the Saint Diana and evil Mary Diana Ross fans and that is such gaslighting and disingenuous. For every negative comment or push back against the saintly Mary narrative, there are hundreds of comments attacking Ross for everything under the sun. If you somehow don't agree that Ross is responsible for the fall of western civilization, you are tagged with the moronic "Rosser", Diana apologist or suffering from Celebrity worship syndrome. There are plenty here that suffer from Ross Derangement Syndrome.

It is possible to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time. Everything is not binary or either/or. We can say that Ross was difficult to deal with at RCA and that RCA was a horrible label as confirmed by Barry Manilow and Kenny Rogers disenchantment with them. It is OK to say that Mary was intentionally egging on Ross at Motown and Ross was one hundred percent at fault for the push/shove.

It is OK for 70s Supreme and Mary fans to say anything negative about Ross and her voice but apparently Ross fans are not allowed to have an opinion about any of their voices because then you are a crazy "Rosser". We are told this is not a Ross fan site. This is also not a Mary, Flo or 70s Supremes fan site either. Every Ross failure is of her own doing and well deserved and her successes are attributed to luck. As I've seen in multiple threads here, any 70s Supremes failure is because of Diana Ross and/or Berry's need to control/punish her. Clearly fantastical magical thinking. Motown did a far better job of handling the 70s Supremes launch than they did with Diana's. Two lower rung Top 10s for the Supremes are huge smash hits and two top twenty hits are big successes but for Ross and/or DRATS they are deemed failures.

Also, to put it into context, the 70s Supremes were out there promoting their records. Diana was giving birth to 2 children and filming LSTB. Outside of the Diana! TV special and the inaugural tour, she was not visibly out there promoting her records. I honestly believe that the 70s Supremes would have continued to remain successful if Jean had stayed. They would have found a way/path to recover from the Jimmy Webb album and moved forward. Motown was horrible with all their female artists, including Diana. Both Diana and the Supremes would have been far better served with outside management that had more of their interests at heart.

Also, the notion that Diana needed to be Berry's puppet is laughable. As has been previously posted, she was largely responsible for the "Evening with" show that broke box office records at the Palace Theater in NYC at the time and that got her a special Tony award. She effectively took control of her recording career with The Boss and began her most consistent Top 10 and Top 20 pop chart run of her career. We can always debate the merits of the RCA years but, in my opinion, not a fact, Mirror Mirror, Swept Away, Missing You and Chain Reaction stand with any of her first Motown era hits. There are also many wonderful album tracks as well and a whole bunch of clunkers too.

Finally, as someone who was seen Ross at least 15 times since I Love You was released, the majority of fans in attendance are there to see and hear her hits. I don't see a whole lot of 70 and 80 year old fans at her show. The majority of the older fans I see at her concerts appear to be in their late 50s and early 60s like myself. The Supremes songs she sings, are about 25%, if that, of her set list. She could do a whole set of her own songs and selected covers and still sell out places like Radio City Music Hall.

Sorry for the long winded post. 5 years of my own pent up thoughts. I apologize in advance for any grammatical, phrasing errors. Let the flame throwing begin.

Sorry if this sounds disrespectful, but this is just another one of those longwinded, slightly hysterical Diana Ross is perfect posts complete with warning tag. You can’t even acknowledge that during the early years she was a totally controlled and directed artist for Christ sake let alone anything else.
The thing i love most about this forum being the majority of members are free to discuss her mistakes, behaviour and achievements in an open and honest way. Sadly fans like you view anything that’s not a compliment as an attack. Don’t worry, your not entirely alone.
The days of Diana or Mary haters seemed to disappear once Marv departed, and with the exception of a fanatical name caller is now a nice place to visit.
We could of course post endless songs and comment endlessly regarding how beautiful, inspirational and heavenly Diana is, but there are other forums that cater for that type of fan
Mercifully this isn’t one of them.

[Boogiedown]

Deepdishus2001


Also, the notion that Diana needed to be Berry's puppet is laughable.

Well she slept with him all those many years for some reason, and apparently it wasn't out of love.

[marybrewster]

Well she slept with him all those many years for some reason, and apparently it wasn't out of love.

Careful. I got nailed to the cross for insinuating that Berry and Diana's bedroom antics were career goals.

[Boogiedown]

[Deepdishus2001]

Well she slept with him all those many years for some reason, and apparently it wasn't out of love.

Where in my post did I say she did not sleep with him? Is sleeping with him synonymous with being a puppet? If we are going to take it down to that basic level then I would say she was pretty smart. Let's forget about the context as usual. The affair began after the run of number 1 hits. At the time of his autobiography, To Be Love, and I believe it is also stated in the book, he called her the love of his life and also that she wanted to marry him.

Have we yet confirmed that she slept with that producer to get the lead in The Wiz?

Hee Haw

[Deepdishus2001]

Sorry if this sounds disrespectful, but this is just another one of those longwinded, slightly hysterical Diana Ross is perfect posts complete with warning tag. You can’t even acknowledge that during the early years she was a totally controlled and directed artist for Christ sake let alone anything else.
The thing i love most about this forum being the majority of members are free to discuss her mistakes, behaviour and achievements in an open and honest way. Sadly fans like you view anything that’s not a compliment as an attack. Don’t worry, your not entirely alone.
The days of Diana or Mary haters seemed to disappear once Marv departed, and with the exception of a fanatical name caller is now a nice place to visit.
We could of course post endless songs and comment endlessly regarding how beautiful, inspirational and heavenly Diana is, but there are other forums that cater for that type of fan
Mercifully this isn’t one of them.

Oh please stop. You had every intent of being disrespectful. "Sadly fans like you" You know nothing about me. I have not called anyone names. Like clockwork, your unhinged deranged lunatic response proves my point. I have never attacked the vocal abilities or appearances of any of the other ladies of the Supremes., I have not gone into Mary or Flo threads and disparaged them. Did you read any of my post or cherry picked what you wanted to call me a Rosser? I did criticize Ross. I flat out said that if Jean had stayed, the 70s Supremes would have continued to have success. You have derided any poster who does not concur with your viewpoint, you have shamed another poster's musical taste. I do not reply to every thread and continue to post and insist my opinion is the only true and correct one to have until it becomes a war of attrition and people finally just give up. I hand you the gavel. You are the Chief Justice of the Diana Ross Disinformation/Misinformation Board. Anyone who does not concur with your opinion shall be consigned to the guillotine. I'm sorry that I don't agree that in between eating newborn babies for breakfast and tossing adorable French bulldogs off the 50th floor terrace of her magnificent apartment that Diana was furiously on her twitter feed searching for Forever Came Today to disparage her fellow Supremes.

[Ollie9]

Oh please stop. You had every intent of being disrespectful. "Sadly fans like you" You know nothing about me. I have not called anyone names. Like clockwork, your unhinged deranged lunatic response proves my point. I have never attacked the vocal abilities or appearances of any of the other ladies of the Supremes., I have not gone into Mary or Flo threads and disparaged them. Did you read any of my post or cherry picked what you wanted to call me a Rosser? I did criticize Ross. I flat out said that if Jean had stayed, the 70s Supremes would have continued to have success. You have derided any poster who does not concur with your viewpoint, you have shamed another poster's musical taste. I do not reply to every thread and continue to post and insist my opinion is the only true and correct one to have until it becomes a war of attrition and people finally just give up. I hand you the gavel. You are the Chief Justice of the Diana Ross Disinformation/Misinformation Board. Anyone who does not concur with your opinion shall be consigned to the guillotine. I'm sorry that I don't agree that in between eating newborn babies for breakfast and tossing adorable French bulldogs off the 50th floor terrace of her magnificent apartment that Diana was furiously on her twitter feed searching for Forever Came Today to disparage her fellow Supremes.

My goodness, i’m sensing a lot of bitterness here. Calling someone unhinged, deranged and a lunatic for having a varying opinion is really not nice or necessary. It’s funny how it’s always the Ross sycophants who consider it their privilege. Hmmm.
If you took the time to read my posts, you would see i concluded it was unlikely Diana would ever have had the inclination or interest to be bothered with such an acknowledgement herself.
As regard others opinion on the contrary, it’s really rather interesting to hear others fans varying view points that don't concur with one’s own. The main difference being i don’t become slightly hysterical with rants regarding tossing cute dogs out of windows and eating newborn babies.
I really am at a loss for words.

[RanRan79]

Oh please stop. You had every intent of being disrespectful. "Sadly fans like you" You know nothing about me. I have not called anyone names. Like clockwork, your unhinged deranged lunatic response proves my point. I have never attacked the vocal abilities or appearances of any of the other ladies of the Supremes., I have not gone into Mary or Flo threads and disparaged them. Did you read any of my post or cherry picked what you wanted to call me a Rosser? I did criticize Ross. I flat out said that if Jean had stayed, the 70s Supremes would have continued to have success. You have derided any poster who does not concur with your viewpoint, you have shamed another poster's musical taste. I do not reply to every thread and continue to post and insist my opinion is the only true and correct one to have until it becomes a war of attrition and people finally just give up. I hand you the gavel. You are the Chief Justice of the Diana Ross Disinformation/Misinformation Board. Anyone who does not concur with your opinion shall be consigned to the guillotine. I'm sorry that I don't agree that in between eating newborn babies for breakfast and tossing adorable French bulldogs off the 50th floor terrace of her magnificent apartment that Diana was furiously on her twitter feed searching for Forever Came Today to disparage her fellow Supremes.

Just an observation here, but you do seem to have been triggered by Jim's assessment of Diana being better suited to light, pop sounding tunes, as your original post pointed out in a way that comes across as a sarcastic jab at Jim's description. You then went on a rant about 70s Supremes fans, and Mary fans, that to me, seem to have come out of nowhere, except as a response to the original post which you appear to have taken offense to.

Having read Jim's post now, while I may not agree with every single thing he said, I didn't read anything that should have been taken as a shot at Diana or any of the other Supremes. As you said before, these kinds of posts are subjective. We as fans of the group have all kinds of thoughts and opinions about what should have been, and could have been, what worked, what didn't, who did what best and who should have left it alone. For a fan to suggest that Diana was best for lighter, pop songs, that's his opinion. I guess it's all in the way you look at the statement:

To suggest that Florence excelled on the more soulful songs doesn't necessarily mean that the opinion is that's all she should have sung. Her lead on "People" in the live act was such a crowd pleaser that Gordy kept it in the act from 1964 well into 1966, so clearly she could sing more than a "Buttered Popcorn".

To suggest that Mary was best at singing ballads shouldn't mean that's all she could do. [[Personally, I think her lead on "Davy Crockett" was very good.)

To suggest that Diana was better on the lighter, pop sounding songs doesn't mean that's all she could do either. But IMO, and I'm guessing Jim's as well, of the three of them, these are the areas they were the better choice for. Yes, if I'm a songwriter/producer and my tune is a light, pop sounding song, and I approach the Supremes to record it, chances are I'm choosing Diana for the job. Every single time? No. I think Mary could have done some of Diana's leads just as effectively. Would I choose Flo for a "Baby Love" or "I Hear a Symphony"? Nope. "Itchin"? Sure. "Hangin' On"? You betcha. But then those last two songs aren't what I would call "light pop" and speaks to my point- and Jim's if I'm allowed to speak for him- that because a particular Supreme might have been the better choice for certain types of songs, that doesn't mean that's all said Supreme could sing or excel at.

I agree with Ollie that over the last couple years this forum has largely become a place where we can talk the Supremes and their individual singers without a lot of the Ross vs Wilson fan wars that used to dominate. It's not that anyone's opinions on either singer, along with Flo, Cindy, Jean and the others, has changed, but there is a respect for a difference of opinion, and I hope we can keep that feeling going. Not counting this thread, it does look like there's an increase of bad interactions brewing yet again. I would hate to see the forum devolve again.

Unless you say something bad about Florence. Then my gloves come off.

[RanRan79]

Sorry for the long winded post. 5 years of my own pent up thoughts. I apologize in advance for any grammatical, phrasing errors. Let the flame throwing begin.

If you would post more often, you wouldn't have all those pent up thoughts.

Seriously, don't be afraid to post about how fantastic an artist Diana Ross is. I sure as hell don't have a problem doing it. Most posters will appreciate a great thread about the music. Not as appreciated as a thread about the drama, of course, but appreciated still.

[Ollie9]

Just an observation here, but you do seem to have been triggered by Jim's assessment of Diana being better suited to light, pop sounding tunes, as your original post pointed out in a way that comes across as a sarcastic jab at Jim's description. You then went on a rant about 70s Supremes fans, and Mary fans, that to me, seem to have come out of nowhere, except as a response to the original post which you appear to have taken offense to.

Having read Jim's post now, while I may not agree with every single thing he said, I didn't read anything that should have been taken as a shot at Diana or any of the other Supremes. As you said before, these kinds of posts are subjective. We as fans of the group have all kinds of thoughts and opinions about what should have been, and could have been, what worked, what didn't, who did what best and who should have left it alone. For a fan to suggest that Diana was best for lighter, pop songs, that's his opinion. I guess it's all in the way you look at the statement:

To suggest that Florence excelled on the more soulful songs doesn't necessarily mean that the opinion is that's all she should have sung. Her lead on "People" in the live act was such a crowd pleaser that Gordy kept it in the act from 1964 well into 1966, so clearly she could sing more than a "Buttered Popcorn".

To suggest that Mary was best at singing ballads shouldn't mean that's all she could do. [[Personally, I think her lead on "Davy Crockett" was very good.)

To suggest that Diana was better on the lighter, pop sounding songs doesn't mean that's all she could do either. But IMO, and I'm guessing Jim's as well, of the three of them, these are the areas they were the better choice for. Yes, if I'm a songwriter/producer and my tune is a light, pop sounding song, and I approach the Supremes to record it, chances are I'm choosing Diana for the job. Every single time? No. I think Mary could have done some of Diana's leads just as effectively. Would I choose Flo for a "Baby Love" or "I Hear a Symphony"? Nope. "Itchin"? Sure. "Hangin' On"? You betcha. But then those last two songs aren't what I would call "light pop" and speaks to my point- and Jim's if I'm allowed to speak for him- that because a particular Supreme might have been the better choice for certain types of songs, that doesn't mean that's all said Supreme could sing or excel at.

I agree with Ollie that over the last couple years this forum has largely become a place where we can talk the Supremes and their individual singers without a lot of the Ross vs Wilson fan wars that used to dominate. It's not that anyone's opinions on either singer, along with Flo, Cindy, Jean and the others, has changed, but there is a respect for a difference of opinion, and I hope we can keep that feeling going. Not counting this thread, it does look like there's an increase of bad interactions brewing yet again. I would hate to see the forum devolve again.

Unless you say something bad about Florence. Then my gloves come off.

Excellent posts Ran, lending level headed reasoning. Judge Judy has some real competition lol.

[Boogiedown]

Where in my post did I say she did not sleep with him? Is sleeping with him synonymous with being a puppet?
While maneuvering her every move, her boss has his hand up her skirt, that would be puppetry.

If we are going to take it down to that basic level then I would say she was pretty smart. Let's forget about the context as usual. The affair began after the run of number 1 hits.. At the time of his autobiography, To Be Love, and I believe it is also stated in the book, he called her the love of his life and also that she wanted to marry him.
You're romanticizing two people that for years snuck around to get it on and when the time came to step up: didn't.

Have we yet confirmed that she slept with that producer to get the lead in The Wiz? Hee Haw
We haven't disproved it.
WHY would Rob Cohen find a thirty-three year old Miss Ross the right choice for a leading part as an innocent young girl? How, oh how did she convince him?
If you're interested there's even more to this , and to label it as "bizarre", doesn't quite do it justice.

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