Diana & Giorgio Moroder

[Albator]

I just translated the Japanese booklet of the "Swept Away" LP and it says that Giorgio Moroder was set to produce tracks for Diana.
In fact, the authors of "Touch by touch" are the musicians of Irene Cara's album "What a Feelin'" produced by Moroder.
The booklet just says that Moroder left the project but they don’t give any reasons.

I also think about a reflection of Diana's sound engineer, Larry Alexander. He said that one day a producer told Diana something that she didn't like anymore and the next day he was fired.
I wonder if this is not Moroder himself he was talking about.

[sup_fan]

not trying to speak for Blue but i recall him mentioning that yes, Diana could be difficult to work with. and that during the 80s she was still trying to prove herself. that leaving motown wasn't a mistake. so she could be challenging. in our discussion of Eaten Alive, he said that maurice gibb and Diana struggled to work together.

i don't know if Giorgio or Maurice are also difficult personalities themselves? were they partially to blame? Others have mentioned that Diana and Masser not only had a tense relationship because he would push her to the limits but that he also apparently had substance issues. and she had 0 tolerance for that. heck she had some issues with Lionel because he could be perpetually late and tardy.

[Boogiedown]

Wouldn't you say it started with the Chic project....Diana was outside the Motown box for the first time and it rested more on her shoulders and she did not like the final results that were handed her and had the whole thing remixed. I'm sure when it took off like a rocket she credited her reworking the songs for the success as much as anything. It might have given her an exaggerated sense of knowing whats best.

For some reason I never imagined Giorgio and Diana pairing up. They just don't seem like a match and to be honest it would be stepping back [retro] for Giorgio to handle Diana. He was always one step ahead of the curve music wise, which is one reason each new Donna Summer release was such a delight.

[Ollie9]

Wouldn't you say it started with the Chic project....Diana was outside the Motown box for the first time and it rested more on her shoulders and she did not like the final results that were handed her and had the whole thing remixed. I'm sure when it took off like a rocket she credited her reworking the songs for the success as much as anything. It might have given her an exaggerated sense of knowing whats best.

For some reason I never imagined Giorgio and Diana pairing up. They just don't seem like a match and to be honest it would be stepping back [retro] for Giorgio to handle Diana. He was always one step ahead of the curve music wise, which is one reason each new Donna Summer release was such a delight.

Diana of course is reported to have walked out on the Chic recording sessions, returning a week later.

[Boogiedown]

I wonder what that was about exactly? {I have no idea what 'I'm coming out ' means and I ain't singing it!!! }

[Ollie9]

I wonder what that was about exactly? {I have no idea what 'I'm coming out ' means and I ain't singing it!!! }

Nile Rodgers had the audacity to point out she was singing flat. The slamming of the door must have shook the building lol.

[Albator]

not trying to speak for Blue but i recall him mentioning that yes, Diana could be difficult to work with. and that during the 80s she was still trying to prove herself. that leaving motown wasn't a mistake. so she could be challenging. in our discussion of Eaten Alive, he said that maurice gibb and Diana struggled to work together.

i don't know if Giorgio or Maurice are also difficult personalities themselves? were they partially to blame? Others have mentioned that Diana and Masser not only had a tense relationship because he would push her to the limits but that he also apparently had substance issues. and she had 0 tolerance for that. heck she had some issues with Lionel because he could be perpetually late and tardy.

Is Diana difficult? We know she is, impulsive and once she has set her mind on something, she can't go back. She is an aries LOL
But in his business, Moroder too, is difficult. He had been with Donna, with David Bowie... In interviews, he has harsh words for many singers he worked with.


I also feel that Diana, as impressive as she is for her reputation, is underestimated when it comes to her capacities. Her fans do that all the time, blaming her instead of trying to understand her intensions while at RCA.
What do we hear all the time? That her records were cheap while at RCA that's pure craps, her albums were all extremely expensive to produce. Probably more than a lot of Motown average stuff. Just look at the musicians on the credits.


Anyway, I digress. I'm not sure Moroder was the best for her at that time. He was already into new wave, rock...

[Boogiedown]

^^interesting . I have never heard Giorgio speak harshly of any artists … what did he say? Any links you can provide?
He’s always struck me as rather mild mannered …. but I admit to not keeping up with him …he seems a man of few words , wish a book / autobiography would emerge.

[sup_fan]

Is Diana difficult? We know she is, impulsive and once she has set her mind on something, she can't go back. She is an aries LOL
But in his business, Moroder too, is difficult. He had been with Donna, with David Bowie... In interviews, he has harsh words for many singers he worked with.


I also feel that Diana, as impressive as she is for her reputation, is underestimated when it comes to her capacities. Her fans do that all the time, blaming her instead of trying to understand her intensions while at RCA.
What do we hear all the time? That her records were cheap while at RCA that's pure craps, her albums were all extremely expensive to produce. Probably more than a lot of Motown average stuff. Just look at the musicians on the credits.


Anyway, I digress. I'm not sure Moroder was the best for her at that time. He was already into new wave, rock...

i agree that artists and artistic-types can certainly have very specific points of view, ways they wish to do things, etc. I think there are times when that's appropriate and tolerated and times when it's too much. Diana's reputation aside, i don't think she's always problematic or that when she pushes back and has a conflict that she's necessarily always in the wrong. it does seem like people have noted that during the 80s the frequency of these conflicts was higher and the rationale for the difficulties might have been flimsier on her part. i will say most of these people have also said in later years that diva approach lessened.

and i think when you have 2 people that are both strong-willed artistic types, you definitely an opportunity for challenges.

[Boogiedown]

ill have to give this a full listen ....listened to first part ....seems very interesting

[RanRan79]

I also feel that Diana, as impressive as she is for her reputation, is underestimated when it comes to her capacities. Her fans do that all the time, blaming her instead of trying to understand her intensions while at RCA.
What do we hear all the time? That her records were cheap while at RCA that's pure craps, her albums were all extremely expensive to produce. Probably more than a lot of Motown average stuff.

What's there to understand? Diana took creative control of her career and since she was in control, the buck stops with her when it's time to figure out what went wrong. Her intention at RCA was to get the big pay off for signing. After that it was to do whatever the hell she felt like doing when she woke up in the morning. If that meant going into the studio and recording a masterpiece like "Swept Away" [[yes, I consider "Swept Away" to be one of the only masterpieces she did at RCA) or fluff like "So Close", then that's just how it was and everybody, from the head of RCA down to the average fan on the street, had to be happy with it. And if we weren't, Diana didn't give a crap.

And just because she may have spent a ton of money hiring musicians and producers and whoever else doesn't mean the music doesn't sound cheap. So much of what she did at RCA sounds like it could have been cut by just about any small, out of the way record label in the country, not necessarily a giant like RCA. Diana squandered her time at RCA when you consider what she accomplished vs what she could have accomplished.

Now mind you, this is all relative. Diana has the enviable position of being able to have her RCA years critiqued against the incredible run she had at Motown, including her time with the Supremes and there are countless singers who would have killed for Diana's RCA success alone. But lets get real, if it were not for her Motown years, Diana wouldn't necessarily be a forgotten vocalist if all we had were her RCA discography, but legendary run? No way. And she's to blame for that, in addition to RCA who let her run amok.

[Albator]

What's there to understand? Diana took creative control of her career and since she was in control, the buck stops with her when it's time to figure out what went wrong. Her intention at RCA was to get the big pay off for signing. After that it was to do whatever the hell she felt like doing when she woke up in the morning. If that meant going into the studio and recording a masterpiece like "Swept Away" [[yes, I consider "Swept Away" to be one of the only masterpieces she did at RCA) or fluff like "So Close", then that's just how it was and everybody, from the head of RCA down to the average fan on the street, had to be happy with it. And if we weren't, Diana didn't give a crap.

And just because she may have spent a ton of money hiring musicians and producers and whoever else doesn't mean the music doesn't sound cheap. So much of what she did at RCA sounds like it could have been cut by just about any small, out of the way record label in the country, not necessarily a giant like RCA. Diana squandered her time at RCA when you consider what she accomplished vs what she could have accomplished.

Now mind you, this is all relative. Diana has the enviable position of being able to have her RCA years critiqued against the incredible run she had at Motown, including her time with the Supremes and there are countless singers who would have killed for Diana's RCA success alone. But lets get real, if it were not for her Motown years, Diana wouldn't necessarily be a forgotten vocalist if all we had were her RCA discography, but legendary run? No way. And she's to blame for that, in addition to RCA who let her run amok.

You overrate anything Motown. With all that she has recorded, how many memorable titles? Not that much.


In any case, I find her a much better performer since the 80s than before.

[Albator]

i agree that artists and artistic-types can certainly have very specific points of view, ways they wish to do things, etc. I think there are times when that's appropriate and tolerated and times when it's too much. Diana's reputation aside, i don't think she's always problematic or that when she pushes back and has a conflict that she's necessarily always in the wrong. it does seem like people have noted that during the 80s the frequency of these conflicts was higher and the rationale for the difficulties might have been flimsier on her part. i will say most of these people have also said in later years that diva approach lessened.

and i think when you have 2 people that are both strong-willed artistic types, you definitely an opportunity for challenges.

Honestly, I think from a musical carrer POV she made very bad decisions while at RCA. But, some of her failed material is very interesting, like Ross with a new sound sexy and mysterious or EA with an even more new sound. What a vocal performance on it. But it was too late for this sound.

And she had problems in controlling her image. What she thought was good for her alienated a lot of non fans in those days.
And also, the way she was promoted was terrible.
But she had to do that by herself and I think she grew a lot as an artist and an interpreter.

[RanRan79]

You overrate anything Motown. With all that she has recorded, how many memorable titles? Not that much.


In any case, I find her a much better performer since the 80s than before.

I don't overrate anything. You don't control how much rating something gets. It's all opinion. Yes, I LOVE her Motown catalog, especially her Supremes years, where she had 12- count them TWELVE- number one hits with the group and a handful of number one hits as a solo. Diana's songs with the Supremes are in Hall of Fames and I believe some of them have been preserved by the Smithsonian for their impact on music. "Reach Out and Touch", "Mountain High", "Touch Me In the Morning", "Love Hangover"...all songs firmly in the world's consciousness. Which of her RCA tunes are comparable to her Motown hits in impact on the world? I'll wait.

I do not find that her RCA catalog, or even her Motown Pt 2 catalog, favorably compares to what she recorded and released in the 60s and 70s. You, on the other hand, do value highly the work she did at RCA. And guess what: that's okay. I'm glad you enjoy it as much as I enjoy her Motown work and there's nothing wrong with that. Why is everything an argument?

[Ollie9]

I don't overrate anything. You don't control how much rating something gets. It's all opinion. Yes, I LOVE her Motown catalog, especially her Supremes years, where she had 12- count them TWELVE- number one hits with the group and a handful of number one hits as a solo. Diana's songs with the Supremes are in Hall of Fames and I believe some of them have been preserved by the Smithsonian for their impact on music. "Reach Out and Touch", "Mountain High", "Touch Me In the Morning", "Love Hangover"...all songs firmly in the world's consciousness. Which of her RCA tunes are comparable to her Motown hits in impact on the world? I'll wait.

I do not find that her RCA catalog, or even her Motown Pt 2 catalog, favorably compares to what she recorded and released in the 60s and 70s. You, on the other hand, do value highly the work she did at RCA. And guess what: that's okay. I'm glad you enjoy it as much as I enjoy her Motown work and there's nothing wrong with that. Why is everything an argument?

Accurate and balanced post.

[Circa 1824]

Whatever airplay and sales she got while at RCA were largely due to her previous Motown iconic status.

If the world only had her RCA stuff, she would never have been able to leave her job at McDonald’s, and would still be there as the night supervisor. I bought the RCA junk only because I was a loyal fan from her Motown years.

[TNSUN]

Imagine the result if Giorgio Moroder had produced Diana Ross withThe Jones Girls for "You Were The One"!

[Albator]

I do not find that her RCA catalog, or even her Motown Pt 2 catalog, favorably compares to what she recorded and released in the 60s and 70s. You, on the other hand, do value highly the work she did at RCA. And guess what: that's okay. I'm glad you enjoy it as much as I enjoy her Motown work and there's nothing wrong with that. Why is everything an argument?

So, the rule is that when you write that everything diana did at RCA is crap, that's based on rationality [[or charts counting) but when I write that you overestimate what comes from Motown, I'm arguing.


As I am not naive and I know the forum and the rules of the game and I know that you will be supported by the majority. It's OK.


I'm just pointing out that when I come to talk about RCA albums, you systematically come to say all the bad things you think about them, while I have never posted to rain on your parade.
But this doesn't change the fact that I'm not listening Diana's material prior to 1979 because I'm not convinced by her as a singer except for a few hits produced by Ashford & Simpson.

[vgalindo]

Whatever airplay and sales she got while at RCA were largely due to her previous Motown iconic status.

If the world only had her RCA stuff, she would never have been able to leave her job at McDonald’s, and would still be there as the night supervisor. I bought the RCA junk only because I was a loyal fan from her Motown years.

To each his own! I happen to love her RCA material! Diana Ross in the 80s was some very exciting years for me. A new album and sold out arena tours every year. She was at her peak of being a superstar. I love and treasure every minute of the 80s Diana. Again I love her RCA output!

[Ollie9]

The point Ran is making should be one obvious to any fan. Diana will always be best remembered for her Supremes and Motown catalogue. Those were the hit years and that’s a fact. He also mentions he’s fine with peeps who prefer her rca material being each to their own. I don’t see what the problem is.

[RanRan79]

So, the rule is that when you write that everything diana did at RCA is crap, that's based on rationality [[or charts counting) but when I write that you overestimate what comes from Motown, I'm arguing.


As I am not naive and I know the forum and the rules of the game and I know that you will be supported by the majority. It's OK.


I'm just pointing out that when I come to talk about RCA albums, you systematically come to say all the bad things you think about them, while I have never posted to rain on your parade.
But this doesn't change the fact that I'm not listening Diana's material prior to 1979 because I'm not convinced by her as a singer except for a few hits produced by Ashford & Simpson.

Yes, you're argumentative. You are not interested in exchanging opinions about the music of Diana Ross. You're more interested in giving your opinion and expecting everyone else to go along with it as if your opinion is fact. And when we don't- more specifically, for some reason, if I don't- then you have a problem with it.

Example of you being argumentative: You have just accused me of writing that everything Diana did at RCA is crap...right here in a thread where I called "Swept Away" a masterpiece. So now you're argumentative and a liar? Good grief.

If you've paid so much attention to my thoughts on Diana's RCA years then you've seen my words about how highly I rate "Mirror, Mirror", "Fool For Your Love", "Lets Go Up", "Missing You", among a few others. Just because I have the opinion that Diana's RCA catalog is largely beneath her talent doesn't mean you have to take offense. Now if you're Diana Ross posing as someone name Albator, okay Miss Ross, I get you feeling offended of my opinion about your work. But if you aren't Diana Ross, bruh, get a life. Not everyone holds the same opinion you do.

I've never attacked you for loving RCA over Motown. If you believe that statement is untrue, produce the receipt. I'll gladly apologize if I've insulted you over your opinion.

This forum is for fans to exchange ideas, opinions and thoughts on the music. We don't have to agree. Do you know how many threads I create about the music that people come in and disagree with? I just did one on "Run, Run, Run" and how it should have been released as a single shortly after it was first recorded in mid 1963 rather than as a follow up to "Lovelight". If I recall correctly, there wasn't a single commenter who agreed with me. And guess what: so what! I still feel how I feel and I appreciate those who chimed in because I wanted to know what everyone thought, whether they agreed with me or not.

You've taken my opinion about Diana's RCA period personally when it's my opinion that I'm entitled to and has absolutely nothing to do with you. I'm willing to move past it if you haven't considered that's how you come across. If that's how you want to come across, for me, there's a remedy for that. For you, if my opinions about Diana's career bother you, a good way to be unbothered is to use the "ignore" feature here in the forum. Trust me, it will keep your blood pressure down when you use it.

Be blessed.

[RanRan79]

The point Ran is making should be one obvious to any fan. Diana will always be best remembered for her Supremes and Motown catalogue. Those were the hit years and that’s a fact. He also mentions he’s fine with peeps who prefer her rca material being each to their own. I don’t see what the problem is.

Opinion: Diana's RCA years largely suck.

Fact: Diana's legend is almost entirely founded by what she did at Motown from 1964 thru 1981.

I welcome opposing thoughts regarding the opinion.

I'm going to think bad things about the people disputing the fact.

Thanks for backing me up Ollie. Be careful though. Apparently I have the backing of a majority of the forum, due to the rules of the forum game, whatever that is. And here I was thinking I was one of the less popular people around here. Learn something new everyday.

[Spreadinglove21]

For those who think Diana Ross is perfect and everything she did was great, even someone saying they don't like one or two things she did, makes that person a hater from their perspective. In some ways they can handle an out and out real hater, but someone who is a fan but can be critical/analytical and state why they don't care for some of things she did and back it up they have a hard time dealing with it.

This rule just doesn't apply to the "Diana Ross is perfect" people here, but to anyone with a tribalist mindset.

[RanRan79]

For those who think Diana Ross is perfect and everything she did was great, even someone saying they don't like one or two things she did, makes that person a hater from their perspective. In some ways they can handle an out and out real hater, but someone who is a fan but can be critical/analytical and state why they don't care for some of things she did and back it up they have a hard time dealing with it.

This rule just doesn't apply to the "Diana Ross is perfect" people here, but to anyone with a tribalist mindset.

For sure. Except in this case, it's a Diana Ross RCA Years Is Perfect person rather than the usual Diana Ross Everything Is Perfect person. I think Albator is the first of its kind. Lol

I do really hope that he understands his love of RCA Ross is as welcome around here as my love for Motown Ross. Our opposing opinions in this forum should never be confused for personal attacks on each other. We are not the music we talk about.

[RanRan79]

Btw, anyone interested in playing the odds that Diana's next album is called Diana Ross, Everything Is Perfect?

[Spreadinglove21]

For sure. Except in this case, it's a Diana Ross RCA Years Is Perfect person rather than the usual Diana Ross Everything Is Perfect person. I think Albator is the first of its kind. Lol

I do really hope that he understands his love of RCA Ross is as welcome around here as my love for Motown Ross. Our opposing opinions in this forum should never be confused for personal attacks on each other. We are not the music we talk about.

Good points all around. You're right Albator is not a "Everything Diana Ross does is perfect" fan, so my apologies to Albator.

[telekin]

I just translated the Japanese booklet of the "Swept Away" LP and it says that Giorgio Moroder was set to produce tracks for Diana.
In fact, the authors of "Touch by touch" are the musicians of Irene Cara's album "What a Feelin'" produced by Moroder.
The booklet just says that Moroder left the project but they don’t give any reasons.

I also think about a reflection of Diana's sound engineer, Larry Alexander. He said that one day a producer told Diana something that she didn't like anymore and the next day he was fired.
I wonder if this is not Moroder himself he was talking about.

Very interesting! I was curious about this because I recall my UK 12" of "Touch By Touch" lists Giorgio Moroder Publishing Co. as it's publishers, so I always wondered if he had been involved somehow.

Moroder was pretty in-demand at the time. And I remember in later interviews he had mentioned being rather selective in who he would work with at the time, along with a certain fatigue also in dealing with artists and their temperaments, to loosely paraphrase.

[Boogiedown]

the closest Diana and Motown ever came to Giorgio-izing

[TNSUN]

"Loving, Living and Giving". I like the song. Diana Ross' vocals should have been engineered to a higher pitch. Perhaps it is an echo chamber that is drowning out her voice.

[Albator]

Very interesting! I was curious about this because I recall my UK 12" of "Touch By Touch" lists Giorgio Moroder Publishing Co. as it's publishers, so I always wondered if he had been involved somehow.

Moroder was pretty in-demand at the time. And I remember in later interviews he had mentioned being rather selective in who he would work with at the time, along with a certain fatigue also in dealing with artists and their temperaments, to loosely paraphrase.

"touch by touch" is a good song if not memorable. Her self produced material had improved a lot with years.


To my surprise the song that has the most streaming is "It's your move" above "Swept Away" and about 10 time the other tracks.

[Albator]

^^interesting . I have never heard Giorgio speak harshly of any artists … what did he say? Any links you can provide?
He’s always struck me as rather mild mannered …. but I admit to not keeping up with him …he seems a man of few words , wish a book / autobiography would emerge.

"harshly" may not be the right word... I should have said he was cash.
It was an interview where he praised Aretha, Barbra and Donna. To prove his point, he devaluated others by saying that he gave them easy songs to do.
Kilye Minogue, Cher, Bonnie Tyler, and others I don't even know.


There is also a very good German tv portrait about Donna Summer.
Moroder commented that she had become a bigot and that she only wanted to sing more or less spiritual stuff. David Geffen who wanted to get rid of her because she didn't sell anymore would have begged him to make a new album with her but he refused.
I remember "all her charisma was gone". Then a collaborator finally agreed to do the about "All Systems go" which was a flop.
He talked about her without any kind of affection.

[Albator]

Originally Posted by RanRan79For sure. Except in this case, it's a Diana Ross RCA Years Is Perfect person rather than the usual Diana Ross Everything Is Perfect person. I think Albator is the first of its kind. Lol

I do really hope that he understands his love of RCA Ross is as welcome around here as my love for Motown Ross. Our opposing opinions in this forum should never be confused for personal attacks on each other. We are not the music we talk about.

Good points all around. You're right Albator is not a "Everything Diana Ross does is perfect" fan, so my apologies to Albator.

Glad to learn what I am and what I am not

[RanRan79]

Glad to learn what I am and what I am not

That's what we're here for.

[Albator]

That's what we're here for.

Didn't Ms Ross say "we'r student all the time" ALL THE TIME so there is still a room for hope

[Boogiedown]

"harshly" may not be the right word... I should have said he was cash.
It was an interview where he praised Aretha, Barbra and Donna. To prove his point, he devaluated others by saying that he gave them easy songs to do.
Kilye Minogue, Cher, Bonnie Tyler, and others I don't even know.


There is also a very good German tv portrait about Donna Summer.
Moroder commented that she had become a bigot and that she only wanted to sing more or less spiritual stuff. David Geffen who wanted to get rid of her because she didn't sell anymore would have begged him to make a new album with her but he refused.
I remember "all her charisma was gone". Then a collaborator finally agreed to do the about "All Systems go" which was a flop.
He talked about her without any kind of affection.

Thanks for your response Albator.

Donna Summer was misunderstood, she was sort of a displaced hippie, having fun for years appearing naked in the European run of the musical HAIR.
My favorite image in my mind of Donna is as a young adult running around barefoot in Central Park in NYC as she describes in her autobiography.

She had no idea where her career was headed, and certainly didn't have the mindset of Diana Ross who willed herself into superstardom . For Donna it all just fell into her lap. She certainly never imagined herself becoming queen of the dancing queens of the discos, and certainly never championed for it.
She's entitled to her religious perspective and I've long ago stopped being disappointed in her. It was all too much, exploding all around her. I get it.

He talked about her without any kind of affection.

I find this comment your most interesting. Do you mean Giorgio? Was that Giorgio just being just Giorgio .... i.e. does he gush about anyone?? .... or was there something not so good between them.
They did seem to part ways at the most inopportune time , at their hottest....

yet maybe that's the best kind of exit.... ask Diana Ross about leaving Motown when she did...

but it seems fare to say in the eighties they were now both in LA and not exactly chums.

[sup_fan]

"touch by touch" is a good song if not memorable. Her self produced material had improved a lot with years.


To my surprise the song that has the most streaming is "It's your move" above "Swept Away" and about 10 time the other tracks.

i agree TBT is a very solid pop song. to be honest i had no real idea until we discussed it all here that DR was the producer on it. if i had had to guess, i probably would have said she WASN'T lol because this is a much better song than she'd done previously.

IMO this is just a great 80s pop song. it would have been perfectly timed for Sept/Fall 1984, it would have charted well. soooooooooooo much better than the dreadful Telephone. she sounds so whiney and high pitched. i find Telephone to be a painful number to sit through. hell Nobody Makes Me Crazy is a better pop song than telephone.

[Albator]

Thanks for your response Albator.

Donna Summer was misunderstood, she was sort of a displaced hippie, having fun for years appearing naked in the European run of the musical HAIR.
My favorite image in my mind of Donna is as a young adult running around barefoot in Central Park in NYC as she describes in her autobiography.

She had no idea where her career was headed, and certainly didn't have the mindset of Diana Ross who willed herself into superstardom . For Donna it all just fell into her lap. She certainly never imagined herself becoming queen of the dancing queens of the discos, and certainly never championed for it.
She's entitled to her religious perspective and I've long ago stopped being disappointed in her. It was all too much, exploding all around her. I get it.

He talked about her without any kind of affection.

I find this comment your most interesting. Do you mean Giorgio? Was that Giorgio just being just Giorgio .... i.e. does he gush about anyone?? .... or was there something not so good between them.
They did seem to part ways at the most inopportune time , at their hottest....

yet maybe that's the best kind of exit.... ask Diana Ross about leaving Motown when she did...

but it seems fare to say in the eighties they were now both in LA and not exactly chums.

Yes, he was like business focused. I don't know if this portrait is on YT. There was a lot of clips from her early days in Germany.

[Albator]

i agree TBT is a very solid pop song. to be honest i had no real idea until we discussed it all here that DR was the producer on it. if i had had to guess, i probably would have said she WASN'T lol because this is a much better song than she'd done previously.

IMO this is just a great 80s pop song. it would have been perfectly timed for Sept/Fall 1984, it would have charted well. soooooooooooo much better than the dreadful Telephone. she sounds so whiney and high pitched. i find Telephone to be a painful number to sit through. hell Nobody Makes Me Crazy is a better pop song than telephone.

I have a passion for "Telephone". It's a rather disturbing, cold and hypnotic song.
I'm amazed to hear how she modulates her voice while singing so high but it's too repetitive to be a hit.


The music of the 80's is about studio technicians and Diana couldn't perform those songs live. On stage, "Swept away" and "Telephone" were sung in lower key.
I find the same problem with "Chain Reaction" that never sounds good live.

[gman]

Ran Ran and Boogiedown....I am not familiar with DR's entire RCA catalogue...if I didn't like the single I heard on a jukebox or radio, I let the LP slip....the only 2 RCA LPS I got when new were SWEPT AWAY and EATEN ALIVE....
I have to agree I think the LP cut [[not the 12"...too much going on there) SWEPT AWAY is a masterpiece...it is my fav RCA cut....and in my top 10 DR solo efforts..I also liked Touch By Touch and Nobody Makes Me Crazy...
Lovin Livin' & Givin'...the LP version is in my top 5 DR cuts...and def one of my 20 fav Disco cuts...I just enjoy the hell out of everything about it....the clicking synthesizer work...the flutes, the "farting" bass line, her jazzy speed up and slow down vocal, and her ad lib wah wah wah woo!...Musically, it reminds me of another fav Amanda Lear's FOLLOW ME.
[[I also love the Supremes You're My Driving Wheel...the hand percussion, the pounding acoustic piano, and Scherries catch up/ fall behind lead vocal)
When I did get the RCA years CD...there was stuff on it I never heard but liked....Summertime is gorgeous... I was not a fan of the singles Muscles, Why Do Fools...or heaven forbid Pieces of Ice....when "POI" came out I played the single about 6x on a bar jukebox just to see if I can get used to it or like it...way too abstract for me.
I love the DR '78 LP....all of it...except Together...the ballards were beautiful...I liked The Boss 12" and No One Gets The Prize, I Ain't been Licked and It's My House...the rest? eh...I liked Upside Down, I'm Coming Out and Have Fun Again...the rest?...eh My fav Ross solo LP's are the debut, DR '78 and Baby It's Me ...but I don't like Confide In Me or Too Shy To Say...this would be the first time she stepped away from Motown for a complete LP, correct?

[RanRan79]

I have a passion for "Telephone". It's a rather disturbing, cold and hypnotic song.
I'm amazed to hear how she modulates her voice while singing so high but it's too repetitive to be a hit.

Now see there, we do agree on something!

I too like "Telephone". I think with a different mix it would have been a bigger r&b hit, but I'm not sure there was anything that could have been done to turn it into a pop hit, though that's just fine with me. It has a good 1980s R&B beat to it. I think there's some "echo" in it that works against it. I also think Diana maybe should have been cut in a lower key. As an album cut, it's pretty good.

[RanRan79]

Ran Ran and Boogiedown....I am not familiar with DR's entire RCA catalogue...if I didn't like the single I heard on a jukebox or radio, I let the LP slip....the only 2 RCA LPS I got when new were SWEPT AWAY and EATEN ALIVE....
I have to agree I think the LP cut [[not the 12"...too much going on there) SWEPT AWAY is a masterpiece...it is my fav RCA cut....and in my top 10 DR solo efforts..I also liked Touch By Touch and Nobody Makes Me Crazy...
Lovin Livin' & Givin'...the LP version is in my top 5 DR cuts...and def one of my 20 fav Disco cuts...I just enjoy the hell out of everything about it....the clicking synthesizer work...the flutes, the "farting" bass line, her jazzy speed up and slow down vocal, and her ad lib wah wah wah woo!...Musically, it reminds me of another fav Amanda Lear's FOLLOW ME.
[[I also love the Supremes You're My Driving Wheel...the hand percussion, the pounding acoustic piano, and Scherries catch up/ fall behind lead vocal)
When I did get the RCA years CD...there was stuff on it I never heard but liked....Summertime is gorgeous... I was not a fan of the singles Muscles, Why Do Fools...or heaven forbid Pieces of Ice....when "POI" came out I played the single about 6x on a bar jukebox just to see if I can get used to it or like it...way too abstract for me.
I love the DR '78 LP....all of it...except Together...the ballards were beautiful...I liked The Boss 12" and No One Gets The Prize, I Ain't been Licked and It's My House...the rest? eh...I liked Upside Down, I'm Coming Out and Have Fun Again...the rest?...eh My fav Ross solo LP's are the debut, DR '78 and Baby It's Me ...but I don't like Confide In Me or Too Shy To Say...this would be the first time she stepped away from Motown for a complete LP, correct?

When I was a kid, Diana was the lady with all that hair, who was friends with Michael Jackson. The connection to MJ was enough to rate her highly in my book. Lol I recall the images of her in Central Park but her RCA material was not a part of my childhood, with three exceptions: "Swept Away", "Missing You" and "Eaten Alive". I don't recall hearing "Muscles" until I seen the video on Video Soul during a Diana Ross tribute episode around 1989/90, though I suspect I probably heard it once or twice when it was current. The same with "Mirror, Mirror", didn't hear it for some years as far as I know. But I have vivid memories of "Swept Away" and "Missing You", which were in heavy rotation on the R&B stations in the Chicago area. Those were huge hits. "Eaten Alive" I vividly remember, not because I ever heard it on the radio, though I suppose I probably did, but I knew that crazy music video. Lol

Regarding "Driving Wheel", I love it too. The frantic pace, Scherrie's bombastic lead. It was really a great production, whether or not it was radio friendly.

I believe you're correct about BIM being the first of her albums to be helmed by an outside producer.

[sup_fan]

Wheel is an excellent dance track. imagine a major club with a superb sound system blasting that beast!! it's just fierce!

the single though was always going to struggle - the chorus basically just has the girls shouting out the lyric, they cut Susaye's ad libs which makes the whole thing sound hallow, there's just too much going on for a 2:35 single.

Imagine if the Hollands had done an extended 12" version for the clubs!

[Boogiedown]

Ran Ran and Boogiedown....I am not familiar with DR's entire RCA catalogue...if I didn't like the single I heard on a jukebox or radio, I let the LP slip....the only 2 RCA LPS I got when new were SWEPT AWAY and EATEN ALIVE....
I have to agree I think the LP cut [[not the 12"...too much going on there) SWEPT AWAY is a masterpiece...it is my fav RCA cut....and in my top 10 DR solo efforts..I also liked Touch By Touch and Nobody Makes Me Crazy...
Lovin Livin' & Givin'...the LP version is in my top 5 DR cuts...and def one of my 20 fav Disco cuts...I just enjoy the hell out of everything about it....the clicking synthesizer work...the flutes, the "farting" bass line, her jazzy speed up and slow down vocal, and her ad lib wah wah wah woo!...Musically, it reminds me of another fav Amanda Lear's FOLLOW ME.
[[I also love the Supremes You're My Driving Wheel...the hand percussion, the pounding acoustic piano, and Scherries catch up/ fall behind lead vocal)
When I did get the RCA years CD...there was stuff on it I never heard but liked....Summertime is gorgeous... I was not a fan of the singles Muscles, Why Do Fools...or heaven forbid Pieces of Ice....when "POI" came out I played the single about 6x on a bar jukebox just to see if I can get used to it or like it...way too abstract for me.
I love the DR '78 LP....all of it...except Together...the ballards were beautiful...I liked The Boss 12" and No One Gets The Prize, I Ain't been Licked and It's My House...the rest? eh...I liked Upside Down, I'm Coming Out and Have Fun Again...the rest?...eh My fav Ross solo LP's are the debut, DR '78 and Baby It's Me ...but I don't like Confide In Me or Too Shy To Say...this would be the first time she stepped away from Motown for a complete LP, correct?

good stuff!! We have to cue up this farting bass line !



I like and appreciate your commitment to it gman!
[ I always thought it stunk, didn't realize it was the farting bassline lol!]


And now Amanda Lear:



It's one of my prized 12" , it was a hot Canadian import at the time ... and impossible to find, with no pressing to come in the US.
Discos most haunting release. An uncredited remix by the mysterious Wally Mc Donald. Two A.M. music.

[lucky2012]

Ran Ran and Boogiedown....I am not familiar with DR's entire RCA catalogue...if I didn't like the single I heard on a jukebox or radio, I let the LP slip....the only 2 RCA LPS I got when new were SWEPT AWAY and EATEN ALIVE....
I have to agree I think the LP cut [[not the 12"...too much going on there) SWEPT AWAY is a masterpiece...it is my fav RCA cut....and in my top 10 DR solo efforts..I also liked Touch By Touch and Nobody Makes Me Crazy...
Lovin Livin' & Givin'...the LP version is in my top 5 DR cuts...and def one of my 20 fav Disco cuts...I just enjoy the hell out of everything about it....the clicking synthesizer work...the flutes, the "farting" bass line, her jazzy speed up and slow down vocal, and her ad lib wah wah wah woo!...Musically, it reminds me of another fav Amanda Lear's FOLLOW ME.
[[I also love the Supremes You're My Driving Wheel...the hand percussion, the pounding acoustic piano, and Scherries catch up/ fall behind lead vocal)
When I did get the RCA years CD...there was stuff on it I never heard but liked....Summertime is gorgeous... I was not a fan of the singles Muscles, Why Do Fools...or heaven forbid Pieces of Ice....when "POI" came out I played the single about 6x on a bar jukebox just to see if I can get used to it or like it...way too abstract for me.
I love the DR '78 LP....all of it...except Together...the ballards were beautiful...I liked The Boss 12" and No One Gets The Prize, I Ain't been Licked and It's My House...the rest? eh...I liked Upside Down, I'm Coming Out and Have Fun Again...the rest?...eh My fav Ross solo LP's are the debut, DR '78 and Baby It's Me ...but I don't like Confide In Me or Too Shy To Say...this would be the first time she stepped away from Motown for a complete LP, correct?

Enjoyed your post! It's a great summation of your love, likes/dislikes and history with Diana Ross. I think we agree about a lot ​of things Ross. But even if we didn't, knowing how others here feel and think is the main reason I love coming to SDF.

[PeaceNHarmony]

To each his own! I happen to love her RCA material! Diana Ross in the 80s was some very exciting years for me. A new album and sold out arena tours every year. She was at her peak of being a superstar. I love and treasure every minute of the 80s Diana. Again I love her RCA output!

A 'hear-here' from me! And the expanded editions made me love the lps more.

[Albator]

Now see there, we do agree on something!

I too like "Telephone". I think with a different mix it would have been a bigger r&b hit, but I'm not sure there was anything that could have been done to turn it into a pop hit, though that's just fine with me. It has a good 1980s R&B beat to it. I think there's some "echo" in it that works against it. I also think Diana maybe should have been cut in a lower key. As an album cut, it's pretty good.

Is it relevant to chart in the R&B category? some of her singles are rather high on the Billboard R&B charts but are not considered hit. "swept away", "working overtime", "no matter what you do" and numerous top15 songs, "dirty looks", "telephone", "pieces of ice", ease on down the road, "getting ready for love", "once in my lifetime", "you'r a special part of me", "surrender", even "reach out and touch"#7

[Ollie9]

Enjoyed your post! It's a great summation of your love, likes/dislikes and history with Diana Ross. I think we agree about a lot ​of things Ross. But even if we didn't, knowing how others here feel and think is the main reason I love coming to SDF.

Nicely put lucky. It’s not a contest as to who likes the most.

[sup_fan]

Is it relevant to chart in the R&B category? some of her singles are rather high on the Billboard R&B charts but are not considered hit. "swept away", "working overtime", "no matter what you do" and numerous top15 songs, "dirty looks", "telephone", "pieces of ice", ease on down the road, "getting ready for love", "once in my lifetime", "you'r a special part of me", "surrender", even "reach out and touch"#7

i'm going off of the books talking about Berry's push into the "white" pop market and about the vastly larger volume of sales that it would generate vs the "black" r&b. but that was also in 1960 or so. so because the bulk of the $ being spent on pop music, a hit on the pop market was viewed as more "successful"

it would be very interesting to learn about sales data as the r&b market became more mainstream. also as african american teens and families had more disposable income to buy things like 45s and albums [[and later tapes and cds).

another trend that would be interesting is the emergence of so many different genres in the later 60s. folk, rock, psychedelic, pop, r&b and later disco. did this actually further subdivide the overall market? whereas in the early 60s [[i'm making up these %s) maybe 80% of sales were in general pop and then 20% in r&b. but as rock and folk and other categories expanded, wouldn't that mean less sales or at least less % of the market for general pop?

[reese]

Is it relevant to chart in the R&B category? some of her singles are rather high on the Billboard R&B charts but are not considered hit. "swept away", "working overtime", "no matter what you do" and numerous top15 songs, "dirty looks", "telephone", "pieces of ice", ease on down the road, "getting ready for love", "once in my lifetime", "you'r a special part of me", "surrender", even "reach out and touch"#7

I think it is. A high placing on any chart should be seen as a success. But for whatever reason, some don't think that charting well on the R&B / Soul chart is a measure of success. Pop seems to be the standard. Crossover is seen as the goal.

There are many classic records that were R&B/Soul hits that never did anything on the pop charts. Off the top of my head, classics like Stephanie Mills' I HAVE LEARNED TO RESPECT THE POWER OF LOVE and I FEEL GOOD ALL OVER. Or Patti's IF YOU ASKED ME TO or YO, MISTER. Or any number of recordings by Diana, Aretha, Gladys, and many others.

Some of the performers themselves might feel the same. I would probably fall over if Dionne performed ONCE YOU HIT THE ROAD [a Top 5 soul hit but only #79 pop] in concert because I don't think she has done so since it was a recent release. On the other hand, Gladys still performs SAVE THE OVERTIME FOR ME [a #1 soul hit but only #66 pop] in concert.

[Ollie9]

i'm going off of the books talking about Berry's push into the "white" pop market and about the vastly larger volume of sales that it would generate vs the "black" r&b. but that was also in 1960 or so. so because the bulk of the $ being spent on pop music, a hit on the pop market was viewed as more "successful"

it would be very interesting to learn about sales data as the r&b market became more mainstream. also as african american teens and families had more disposable income to buy things like 45s and albums [[and later tapes and cds).

One of the main targets for crossover artists has always been in aiming for a pop hit. This must surely suggests a more lucrative market. It would be interesting to view comparable sales figures regarding the pop and r&b charts, particularly from the 80’s onwards.