Ray Parker, Jr. on Diana Ross and "Love or Loneliness"

[RanRan79]

[Ollie9]

It’s interesting how little of her time she was prepared to give for recording. Let’s knock this out as quickly as possible so i can get out of here.
Kind of explains the lack of quality on so many of those rca recordings, and why Gary Katz is quoted as saying that working on the album was the worst experience of his professional career.

[sup_fan]

It’s interesting how little of her time she was prepared to give for recording. Let’s knock this out as quickly as possible so i can get out of here.
Kind of explains the lack of quality on so many of those rca recordings, and why Gary Katz is quoted as saying that working on the album was the worst experience of his professional career.

Love and Loneliness is a pretty good track from the album. all of her vocals are rather disengaged on the lp. and apparently her work with the Bee Gees was sort of a similar approach.

[reese]

I thought LOVE OR LONELINESS was a pretty good track. If I had been in charge, I would have released it as the second single and put UP FRONT on the b-side.

[Boogiedown]

"pretty good" is what you get with lessened effort


she saw Ray on his album cover and when she said, "we could make beautiful music together", that's not what she had in mind at all.

[Ollie9]

Love and Loneliness is a pretty good track from the album. all of her vocals are rather disengaged on the lp. and apparently her work with the Bee Gees was sort of a similar approach.

For me it’s not a bad track though nothing really. special. With a little extra dedication and commitment to her craft these songs could have really taken off.
It’s rather ironic that when finally achieving the control she so craved, applying herself to the recording process proved a low priority. A kind of it will do attitude. Go figure!.

[RanRan79]

Someone in the comment section proposed that the entire album should have been produced by Ray. I don't believe I've ever considered that, which is weird since I love the stuff that was Ray was doing in the early to mid 1980s.

My revised thoughts are now that Quincy should have had the first RCA album. Since it's been repeated enough that Q was unavailable, I would let Fools stand as is. No excuse for Q not doing Silk Electric. Ray Parker gets Ross83. Lionel Richie gets Swept Away; second runner up would be Daryl Hall. I would go with Narada for EA.

[RanRan79]

It’s rather ironic that when finally achieving the control she so craved, applying herself to the recording process proved a low priority. A kind of it will do attitude. Go figure!.

Yeah, that's mind blowing. So you wanted all this freedom...to do what, exactly? Looks like the work ethic touted by everyone about a teenage and 20 something year old Diana didn't translate quite as well to a thirty something year old Diana, even when a record label has paid you a historic amount of money to deliver the best product. I think what Ray describes is a perfect example of when I once opined that Diana Ross was lazy. What he describes is a lazy singer.

As an aside, when I made that original accusation against Diana, folks were in their feelings, including one of the resident Diana experts, who claimed "lazy" was never a term he had heard in relation to Diana Ross. One day a few months ago I was searching through the archives and ran across a thread where this same expert claimed that Diana Ross was lazy...months before I ever said it. LOL Just proof positive that some folks will take a contrary stance depending on who said it vs what was said. Anecdote over.

[Boogiedown]

why do you dance around who it is you're throwing darts at?? always pitching sideways.

[reese]

Someone in the comment section proposed that the entire album should have been produced by Ray. I don't believe I've ever considered that, which is weird since I love the stuff that was Ray was doing in the early to mid 1980s.

My revised thoughts are now that Quincy should have had the first RCA album. Since it's been repeated enough that Q was unavailable, I would let Fools stand as is. No excuse for Q not doing Silk Electric. Ray Parker gets Ross83. Lionel Richie gets Swept Away; second runner up would be Daryl Hall. I would go with Narada for EA.

Q would have been working on THRILLER when SILK ELECTRIC was in production.

[khansperac]

This is one of the best songs on this album and one of my favorites. She definitely delivered. After so many years and hundreds of songs recorded, by this time she was a total pro. She was very efficient. There are some artist that can do it in one or two takes. That doesn’t make them lazy. Just good. With this song, the final product speaks for itself. A job well done by everyone involved.

[RanRan79]

Q would have been working on THRILLER when SILK ELECTRIC was in production.

Ay yi yi!! Of course! Silly me, as usual.

Okay new revision:

No matter what, Quincy should have had the first album. If the album needed to be delayed in order to achieve this, so be it. Perhaps Daryl Hall and John Oates productions would have been an interesting sound for Silk Electric. Ray still gets Ross83. Lionel has Swept Away. Narada for EA. Make RHRAB a soundtrack to the tv special, and have Luther produce the next studio album.

[RanRan79]

I think I posed this question before but I don't remember the answers, and even if I did, it's not like we don't constantly regurgitate all the same stuff regarding the Supremes and their singers.

But what does everyone think of pairing Prince and Diana? Lyrical content aside, could you hear Diana singing to the "Sugar Walls" track? What about "Glamorous Life"? "Manic Monday"? Has Prince ever spoken publicly about Diana?

[TNSUN]

"Love or Loneliness" is a great track. Diana Ross' vocals shine on this track. I like any work ethic that gets the job done. In this case, mission accomplished.

[Ollie9]

Yeah, that's mind blowing. So you wanted all this freedom...to do what, exactly? Looks like the work ethic touted by everyone about a teenage and 20 something year old Diana didn't translate quite as well to a thirty something year old Diana, even when a record label has paid you a historic amount of money to deliver the best product. I think what Ray describes is a perfect example of when I once opined that Diana Ross was lazy. What he describes is a lazy singer.

As an aside, when I made that original accusation against Diana, folks were in their feelings, including one of the resident Diana experts, who claimed "lazy" was never a term he had heard in relation to Diana Ross. One day a few months ago I was searching through the archives and ran across a thread where this same expert claimed that Diana Ross was lazy...months before I ever said it. LOL Just proof positive that some folks will take a contrary stance depending on who said it vs what was said. Anecdote over.

My take on it being she had her fingers in to many pies during that time period, Always rushing here there and everywhere, trying to make as much money as possible.
It made her a very rich woman of course, but the recordings suffered. Taking the necessary timeout to make a quality album was never a priority.
A duet album with Prince would have been rather cool, but might have taken up more time then she was prepared to invest.

[Albator]

Well, in two hours she was able to deliver something as polished as "hard for me to say".
Her vocals on Eaten Alive are very energetic and powerful.

[Circa 1824]

Ross is a cheapskate with her money and time. “Do it quick and do it cheap” seems to be her motto. Thus the quality of her post-Motown work.

At Motown there were teams of professionals behind the scenes doing much of the work. After Motown, Ross became a one-man band trying to do it all for the sake of speed and economics. She is a lousy one-man band and failed miserably.

[sup_fan]

My take on it being she had her fingers in to many pies during that time period, Always rushing here there and everywhere, trying to make as much money as possible.
It made her a very rich woman of course, but the recordings suffered. Taking the necessary timeout to make a quality album was never a priority.
A duet album with Prince would have been rather cool, but might have taken up more time then she was prepared to invest.

i think duetting with Prince would have been just like duetting with MJ. both would have probably produced the record and both had styles VERY different from Diana's. i'm not sure they would have worked. Eaten Alive is a style and sound VERY closely associated with MJ. sure Janet seems to have adopted a similar style but outside of MJ, i'm not sure it does much for others. same with Prince.

plus it would have probably been viewed as pandering to regain her top-tier status. if it was 81 when she was mega hot, that's one thing. but by 83 or 85, nope.

[TNSUN]

Upon reviewing the song, Ray Parker Jr.'s
guitar licks are kicking....! Diana Ross' vocals are superb.Yet production wise, the vocals need to be modified somewhat louder a la Pat Benatar. Where was Gene to rock tune this to another level? Ha Ha Ha
"Ross" is a great album. "Pieces of Ice" musically is hot, lyrically, cold as ice. Again, superb vocals by Diana Ross!

[Circa 1824]

The goal of Ross at Motown was to be “great.”
The goal of Ross after Motown was to be “good enough.”

She met her goals at both.

[sup_fan]

overall i think Ross 83 is a decent album. i like the synthesizer-heavy productions of Katz and it's kind of amazing that the Parker tunes seem to fit pretty seamlessly

That's how you start over - this is an exciting track and solid opener. but as we'll see elsewhere, just not quite enough fire in DR's vocals. not bad. but just needed more energy. with a bit stronger vocals, this could have been a single

love will make it right - while probably not gonna work as a single, i think this is a really nice song and i think the more detached, straightforward vocal from DR works here.

you do it - i think one of her stronger vocals on the album. she seems more engaged here and this song might have worked as a single

pieces of ice - like Love Will Make It Right, i like the tune but not so sure it was destined for a single. i think providing the 12" for djs was a smart move as it would have worked well with dance clubs.

let's go up - a strong song with solid vocals. but not a great song. this or the redone That's How could have been the lead single

love or loneliness - also a good song, also a good contender for a pop single and also just not quite enough from Diana's vocals

up front - i think this is fine for an album track and actually has a more engaged vocal, but i don't think this should have been a single

girls - ok i'm not gonna hide the fact that i like this song lol. it just makes me think of Duran Duran with Girls on Film. is it single-worthy? definitely not. it's a bit too campy and frankly she'd already done campy with a song or two on previous albums. not every lp needed a camp song. so maybe include or cut. but i do like it


it would also be interesting to hear the apparent tunes that were left off this lp. whether they were by Katz or Parker or Diana

[RanRan79]

My take on it being she had her fingers in to many pies during that time period, Always rushing here there and everywhere, trying to make as much money as possible.
It made her a very rich woman of course, but the recordings suffered. Taking the necessary timeout to make a quality album was never a priority.
A duet album with Prince would have been rather cool, but might have taken up more time then she was prepared to invest.

I don't think Diana and Prince's vocal styles would have meshed well for a duet album. My question was more of Prince producing a Diana album.

[RanRan79]

plus it would have probably been viewed as pandering to regain her top-tier status. if it was 81 when she was mega hot, that's one thing. but by 83 or 85, nope.

Again, I was referring to a Prince produced album, not a duet. But would the public have clamored for a Prince produced Diana album or would they have said "Diana's new album produced by Prince? No thanks, she's pandering." I don't think so at all. I think it would have kept her fresh and relevant. I also think it would have given her far better songs than what we typically got from her RCA period.

My only issue with the pairing would be personality clashes. Both are known divas, megalomaniacs even. Me thinks the project would have ended sooner than Diana and Marvin.

[RanRan79]

"Pieces of Ice" musically is hot, lyrically, cold as ice.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I think the track is not suited to Diana. She was jumping on the new wave bandwagon and I don't think it was a good fit. On the other hand, the lyrics, while not a HDH, A&S or Masser masterpiece, paired with a more soulful track would have been nice. I love the premise, likening cold eyes to pieces of ice.

[Albator]

Upon reviewing the song, Ray Parker Jr.'s
guitar licks are kicking....! Diana Ross' vocals are superb.Yet production wise, the vocals need to be modified somewhat louder a la Pat Benatar. Where was Gene to rock tune this to another level? Ha Ha Ha
"Ross" is a great album. "Pieces of Ice" musically is hot, lyrically, cold as ice. Again, superb vocals by Diana Ross!

absolutely. Ross is a splendid cold but sexy record.

[sup_fan]

Again, I was referring to a Prince produced album, not a duet. But would the public have clamored for a Prince produced Diana album or would they have said "Diana's new album produced by Prince? No thanks, she's pandering." I don't think so at all. I think it would have kept her fresh and relevant. I also think it would have given her far better songs than what we typically got from her RCA period.

My only issue with the pairing would be personality clashes. Both are known divas, megalomaniacs even. Me thinks the project would have ended sooner than Diana and Marvin.

haha that very well could be

the reports during Muscles was that MJ was so intimidated by DR that he could barely muster the courage to tell her what to do. and maybe she liked that! lol

prince wouldn't have probably had a problem and that might have resulted in some serious conflicts.

[sup_fan]

I'm of the opposite opinion. I think the track is not suited to Diana. She was jumping on the new wave bandwagon and I don't think it was a good fit. On the other hand, the lyrics, while not a HDH, A&S or Masser masterpiece, paired with a more soulful track would have been nice. I love the premise, likening cold eyes to pieces of ice.

while i'm not a huge New Wave fan anyway, i don't think DR is totally miscast in it. there is definitely a coldness to the album which is very different for a DR lp. but then again she handled the cold urban glossy feel of Chic. she's not as miscast as she would be on WO. although i think if the keys for the songs on WO had simply been lower and she hadn't had to strain as much it might have helped. not that it would have become a classic album but at least better

[Ollie9]

overall i think Ross 83 is a decent album. i like the synthesizer-heavy productions of Katz and it's kind of amazing that the Parker tunes seem to fit pretty seamlessly

That's how you start over - this is an exciting track and solid opener. but as we'll see elsewhere, just not quite enough fire in DR's vocals. not bad. but just needed more energy. with a bit stronger vocals, this could have been a single

love will make it right - while probably not gonna work as a single, i think this is a really nice song and i think the more detached, straightforward vocal from DR works here.

you do it - i think one of her stronger vocals on the album. she seems more engaged here and this song might have worked as a single

pieces of ice - like Love Will Make It Right, i like the tune but not so sure it was destined for a single. i think providing the 12" for djs was a smart move as it would have worked well with dance clubs.

let's go up - a strong song with solid vocals. but not a great song. this or the redone That's How could have been the lead single

love or loneliness - also a good song, also a good contender for a pop single and also just not quite enough from Diana's vocals

up front - i think this is fine for an album track and actually has a more engaged vocal, but i don't think this should have been a single

girls - ok i'm not gonna hide the fact that i like this song lol. it just makes me think of Duran Duran with Girls on Film. is it single-worthy? definitely not. it's a bit too campy and frankly she'd already done campy with a song or two on previous albums. not every lp needed a camp song. so maybe include or cut. but i do like it


it would also be interesting to hear the apparent tunes that were left off this lp. whether they were by Katz or Parker or Diana

Katz should have produced the whole set. I agree with your assessment of each song with the exception of “Up Front” and “Girls” which i find quite horrible.
With a more committed approach this album could have been one of her very best. A familiar story alas.

[sup_fan]

Katz should have produced the whole set. I agree with your assessment of each song with the exception of “Up Front” and “Girls” which i find quite horrible.
With a more committed approach this album could have been one of her very best. A familiar story alas.

i wonder how the two Parker tracks might have worked on Swept Away. maybe a revised album could have been:

Missing You
Touch by Touch
it's your move
Swept Away
Love or loneliness

up front
all of you
fight for it
nobody makes me crazy
we are the children [[minus the kids chorus)

[Ollie9]

i wonder how the two Parker tracks might have worked on Swept Away. maybe a revised album could have been:

Missing You
Touch by Touch
it's your move
Swept Away
Love or loneliness

up front
all of you
fight for it
nobody makes me crazy
we are the children [[minus the kids chorus)

Not for me sup. I loath “Up Front”, “We Are The Children” And the vapid “Nobody Makes Me Crazy”. “All Of You” always sounded out of place.

[daviddh]

i lied Ross album except the Up Front track
kinda sounds like a rejected Supremes song
to dated for me,cheesey

[sup_fan]

Not for me sup. I loath “Up Front”, “We Are The Children” And the vapid “Nobody Makes Me Crazy”. “All Of You” always sounded out of place.

hahaha - i like Crazy too!! i'm going to send you a 45 with Girls on one side and Crazy on the flip LOLOLOLOLOLOL

i found Forever Young to be disappointing. overall it's a beautiful track but Masser should have produced her vocals on it. she sings too weak and wispy.

i don't love Up Front but i don't hate it. Children is very much of the time. it sounds like a chance montage backing music to some Tom Hanks comedy film from 1984. but if you cut the hideous children's choir, you have a rather fun anthem-ish song. and at least she's giving a stronger vocal performance

[Albator]

There is a tendency to have a favorable preconception about Michael Masser's productions. Many of the songs he produced for Diana are either sophisticated schmaltz or downright atrocious like most of the To Love Again material.


It's not until she took the rein of her own carrer that she became a much better interpreter.

[florence]

i wonder how the two Parker tracks might have worked on Swept Away. maybe a revised album could have been:

Missing You
Touch by Touch
it's your move
Swept Away
Love or loneliness

up front
all of you
fight for it
nobody makes me crazy
we are the children [[minus the kids chorus)

You've killed it by leaving out Forever Young - a lost UK hit

[Ollie9]

There is a tendency to have a favorable preconception about Michael Masser's productions. Many of the songs he produced for Diana are either sophisticated schmaltz or downright atrocious like most of the To Love Again material.


It's not until she took the rein of her own carrer that she became a much better interpreter.

Totally disagree. Not every song was a classic, but Masser always pushed Diana vocally to achieve her best. When left to her own devices she often sounds lazy and uninspired. “In Your Arms” being a typical example.

[Albator]

Totally disagree. Not every song was a classic, but Masser always pushed Diana vocally to achieve her best. When left to her own devices she often sounds lazy and uninspired. “In Your Arms” being a typical example.

That's what most fans think but it's not my opinion at all.
In fact, apart from "touch me in the morning" and "do you know" the other tracks of Masser are a mixture of extreme mannerisms associated with gutsy singing.


I feel her singing has become more honest and real after she left Motown, especially while singing ballads.

[RanRan79]

Totally disagree. Not every song was a classic, but Masser always pushed Diana vocally to achieve her best. When left to her own devices she often sounds lazy and uninspired. “In Your Arms” being a typical example.

I'm not always wild about Masser's Diana productions. Sometimes they lack the soul I prefer from her. But there is no denying that he was capable of producing some great singing from her and with the right song, like "Touch Me In the Morning", we hear some classic Diana.

All fans have their preferences, but her RCA period is chocked full of whispering vocals, which is sad considering how fine of her voice she continued to be during that decade when she wished to really display it. I've never taken a negative stance regarding Diana's voice being thin. Some voices are full, others are not. The bottom line should always whether or not a singer has vocal talent or not. Diana clearly had it. But if you have it, damn it show it off, use it to the best of your ability. At least- and I'm being generous here- half of her RCA output sounds like she was vocally half assing it in the studio. She was so much better than what she was giving.

[Ollie9]

That's what most fans think but it's not my opinion at all.
In fact, apart from "touch me in the morning" and "do you know" the other tracks of Masser are a mixture of extreme mannerisms associated with gutsy singing.


I feel her singing has become more honest and real after she left Motown, especially while singing ballads.

What exactly would you consider her extreme mannerisms?. The Masser ballads needed a certain amount of emotional intensity for them to work.
I think Diana’s most honest and unfettered singing to be featured on “The Boss” album.
From a personal perspective i prefer a “Summertime” to a “Crying My Heart Out” so in that respect i agree.

[khansperac]

Ollie9 I know you say “In your arms” is lazy and uninspired, but can you explain how in more detail if possible. I know we all hear things differently and have our own opinions, but I’m just curious, because I think it is a great vocal, and production.

[sup_fan]

like any producer, Masser had some great songs, some good songs and some duds.

the big operatic soul numbers he gave Diana were totally new and different. some of the best are It's My Turn, Mahogany, After You. Crying My Heart Out is another good one although it and the other new tunes on TLA are borderline overwrought. Sure other singers and black women had done big ballads but the DR ones were huge symphonic productions. that was a new sound in general and a new sound for DR.

we got a few more pop numbers from Masser - together, no one's gonna be a fool. but it would be interesting to hear him do something more straightforward pop or dance. hear the contrasts.

in regards to In Your Arms, Diana never really commits vocally as she had in It's My Turn. i don't think IYA is bad but coming only a year or two after IMT it's just missing the big climax. there's a power in her voice as she sings IMT, even during the soft moments. and the ending has her pushing for those upper notes which adds incredible drama and provides that climax to the tune. IYA starts out fine but never reaches that pinnacle.

[Albator]

What exactly would you consider her extreme mannerisms?. The Masser ballads needed a certain amount of emotional intensity for them to work.
I think Diana’s most honest and unfettered singing to be featured on “The Boss” album.
From a personal perspective i prefer a “Summertime” to a “Crying My Heart Out” so in that respect i agree.

it may characterize her whole body of work but it goes from sublime like Summertime to not so sublime

[Ollie9]

Ollie9 I know you say “In your arms” is lazy and uninspired, but can you explain how in more detail if possible. I know we all hear things differently and have our own opinions, but I’m just curious, because I think it is a great vocal, and production.

For me Diana’s vocal sounds disconnected and rather mechanical like she’s singing from a lyric sheet while making a cup of tea. I find the production way to muddy sounding, with excessive echo and overuse of double tracking that made it sound dated, even for 82. The whole thing just plods along until the final note.
I don't consider it the worst thing she’s ever done, but very far from her best.

[khansperac]

For me Diana’s vocal sounds disconnected and rather mechanical like she’s singing from a lyric sheet while making a cup of tea. I find the production way to muddy sounding, with excessive echo and overuse of double tracking that made it sound dated, even for 82. The whole thing just plods along until the final note.
I don't consider it the worst thing she’s ever done, but very far from her best.

Thanks for explaining. That’s what’s great about opinions, they are all different. The song itself, regardless of the artist or version is not one of my favorites. But regarding Diana’s version, I like her vocals and production. What I really like is the double track. It’s like 2 Diana’s for the price of one. This was a common technique used on several songs from this album.

[Albator]

I listened back to "in your armes" and it's not half as bad as I remembered.


I'm not crazy about the song but what bother me the most on Silk is that the music sounds like live orchestral take while her vocals relies heavily on studio tricks.


This doesn't sound very professional and she became a much better producer by the time of Swept away or even with Girls.

[Spreadinglove21]

Maybe one reason why Diana's version of In Your Arms sounds so blah to many is because the version by Whitney Houston and Teddy Pendergrass is much more dynamic in comparison?

[Ollie9]

Maybe one reason why Diana's version of In Your Arms sounds so blah to many is because the version by Whitney Houston and Teddy Pendergrass is much more dynamic in comparison?

Though offering better production values, i don’t consider the Ted & Whit version particularly memorable either. It certainly didn’t set the charts alight at the time of it’s release.
A Richard Perry cleanup of the song might have provided Diana with a moderate hit. Anything better then the cheesy and cloying “So Close”.

[sup_fan]

Though offering better production values, i don’t consider the Ted & Whit version particularly memorable either. It certainly didn’t set the charts alight at the time of it’s release.
A Richard Perry cleanup of the song might have provided Diana with a moderate hit. Anything better then the cheesy and cloying “So Close”.

agree - So Close was a huge mistake. she'd already had an incredible run since spring 1980 with not just big hits but massive hits. So Close seems to have really just been a reminder to kids "hey i'm an over the hills granny" which i know she wasn't but in terms of pop artists, she was. she'd already done a throwback with WDFFIL and that should have been sufficient for a few years. no more oldies tunes. But we got Sweet Nothings, So Close, then Rescue Me, Forever Young, Chain Reaction and then an entire lp in RHRAB.

[reese]

Though offering better production values, i don’t consider the Ted & Whit version particularly memorable either. It certainly didn’t set the charts alight at the time of it’s release.
A Richard Perry cleanup of the song might have provided Diana with a moderate hit. Anything better then the cheesy and cloying “So Close”.

Teddy and Whitney's was a Top 10 hit on the US Soul Chart, Whitney's first. But yeah, I don't find it all that great. I don't remember being all that fond of Diana's either but I haven't listened to it in a while.

And yes, anything is better than SO CLOSE. I still don't know how that one was ever even considered for single release.

[Ollie9]

Teddy and Whitney's was a Top 10 hit on the US Soul Chart, Whitney's first. But yeah, I don't find it all that great. I don't remember being all that fond of Diana's either but I haven't listened to it in a while.

And yes, anything is better than SO CLOSE. I still don't know how that one was ever even considered for single release.

As she performed “So Close” at Central Park seems likely she really loved the song. It’s hard to imagine what she saw in such dross with ‘Murror Mirror” and “Muscles” at least appealing to the youth market.
It was a confusing time to be a fan.

[reese]

As she performed “So Close” at Central Park seems likely she really loved the song. It’s hard to imagine what she saw in such dross with ‘Murror Mirror” and “Muscles” at least appealing to the youth market.
It was a confusing time to be a fan.

When I saw her in 1984, she performed SO CLOSE in a medley with RESCUE ME and FOOLS.